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High-level Church Official Defections
 
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This is a question for all you smart people on here (and hopefully it makes sense):  Given that there've been lots and lots of church officials, general authorities, et al.  As far as I am aware, there have never been any high-level defections, aside from original members.  Or at least vocal defections.  I am curious to know why this hasn't happened.  (Or maybe I've just not heard about them.)

 

A futher question is how does the church maintain such a high degree of keeping high-level officials in line?  Does it have to do with mindset?  Or is there more to it?  Is the church government designed in such a way as those who question the least naturally bubble to the top?  Would someone not make it into the upper echelons and realize it's not all that it was cracked up to be, and then not let others know? 


So, yeah, thoughts on this would be interesting to hear, especially with it being conference weekend.

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The only one that comes to mind is Steve Benson, grandson of a prophet. He used to post at exmormon . org .... he might still, I haven't looked for awhile.
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I'm starting to wonder if there is some kind of killer non-disclosure agreement that they must sign.  I know there are a few that have left, but they remain very quiet.

 

Our SP for example just went poof last week.  One minute he was there, the next he's MIA.  He's supposedly going on a "Mission" at least that's the public story.

 

That was the story the Danites used wasn't it ?  Oh, Bill ? yea him, he went on a  mission all of a sudden. Like at 1:00am last night. Yea, hes traveling lite, didn't need all of his clothes or stuff . . . 

 

Problem is that he still has kids in school. So it would be a little tough for him and his wife and what's left of his 14 kids (yea, I said 14).  They said mission, not mission president. I don't think they pay for kids for ordinary missionaries do they ?   Second problem, no one to take his place.  It will be May before they can get a GA out to call another SP. Third, he's gone the same week they announce it. Fourth, he had already sold his house, and moved out of the stake . . . who knows . . . guess God does work in mysterious ways . . . but . . . something sounds a little fishy to me.  Although he would be about the last person I would have pegged for leaving or being tossed out or whatever.  Maybe he is just going on a mission ? WTH ??? isn't that a step down ? SP to Missionary ??  

 

Does this happen in other places to other high ranking individuals ? Kind of like a witness relocation program ?  the cynic in me says that maybe they pay them off to shut up and go away.  Now that would be a sweet deal.

 

  Eben
 

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Fairlight:
The only one that comes to mind is Steve Benson, grandson of a prophet. He used to post at exmormon . org .... he might still, I haven't looked for awhile.

 

He post quite a bit at www.mormoncurtain.com.

 
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There was also that temple president down in oklahoma last year, or was it the year before?  But I know he and his wife took off in the middle of their temple tenure.
 
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Well Gordon B. Hinckley did suspiciously "pass away" weeks after he found these in Joseph Smith's "hidden vault".  Death or defection.... you decide!

 

 

*Edit, well it was going to be a funny post.  I have a picture of a "cardboard BoM" but for some reason I can't attach images :( 

 
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This is my take on why you do not hear about it. The power a Bishop or Stake President wields is huge and when they fall (get caught) they are a bunch of chicken shits that will not take the same punishment they so freely dished out to the members. They know it is all made up so why go through with repentance? They also know the other church leaders will make their life a living hell if they stay. Simon Southerton is a good example.

 

During the 1960's a member of the Bishopric from the 50's (he was not currently in the Bishopric) left his wife and moved in with his mistress.  The church of course exed him even though he did not attend church any longer and they announced his excommunication during Stake Conference. The church recently put together a list of all the Bishopric's for this ward and his name is on the list and next to his name in bold letters is the word excommunicated.   The man is dead and the church leadership still will not let him rest in piece. His children, grandchildren and great granchildren are still being embarrassed by LDS leaders and the man has been dead for 25 years.  

 

Would you want this kind of treatment dealt to you or would you move away in the middle of the night so no one knows?

 

 

 
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Oh, and I forgot someone else... me.  Not really.  the "every member is sacred" (I think this references a religious porn flick) mentality is preached from the pulpit, but not actively endorsed.  It's more of a "every member's free time and tithing is sacred" kind a thing.  

 

But that might just be the vodka talking.  I should stop drinking that shit on an empty stomach. 

 
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This is an interesting story and I'm not sure it fits, but Im' telling it anyway.  Elder Marlin Jensen's mother left the church for an apostate group while her husband was a stake president.  I was in that stake years ago when this happened.  The family talked her into coming back after a few months and she remained active until she died a couple of years ago.  Im' sure because she was a woman and not a priesthood holder with an important calling, this wasn't as big of a deal and has long since been forgotten by most people in that stake, I was just a kid and there aren't many around who would remember. 

 

Howdimissthat

  

 
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Fairlight:
The only one that comes to mind is Steve Benson, grandson of a prophet. He used to post at exmormon . org .... he might still, I haven't looked for awhile.

 

 Thanks.    Definitely will be looking into that.

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Eben:

I'm starting to wonder if there is some kind of killer non-disclosure agreement that they must sign.  I know there are a few that have left, but they remain very quiet.


 

  Eben
 

 

 The more I think about it, the easier I feel this can happen.  If you take the temple as an example, there is a huge 'all things are sacred' oath.  It's not a big step to have that same mentality for those who get higher positions.

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White Rabbit:
Fairlight:
The only one that comes to mind is Steve Benson, grandson of a prophet. He used to post at exmormon . org .... he might still, I haven't looked for awhile.

 

 Thanks.    Definitely will be looking into that.

 

 just be careful, steve's tongue is sharper than a two edged sword, and his wit is twice as sharp.  Plus, and it's been a while since I've been there, it seems like anytime someone new showed up over at exmo.org that people would go ape-shit (that's my word of the evening) and start calling that person a troll.  steve's a smart guy, funnier than monkeys on acid and quicker than male mormon virgins.  

 
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I guess I don't count - but it's people like me and you that the church needs to worry about and not the high level officials. What would they ever get out of leaving? The church has rewarded them for their faithfulness. In fact, their lives must be fairly good because the church generally promotes people who have outward measures of success. They do not have the dissonance in their lives that we have had. Life fell into place - mind you with some hard work and probably challenges, too. But, the Lord obviously blessed them temporally and spiritually - why would they need to doubt?
 
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I have always wondered how high church officals become so rich. Especially people like Paul Dunn who were Seminary teachers and then became a GA.

 

10% from you - 8% to Church and 2% to me.

 
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Clear Vison:

I have always wondered how high church officals become so rich. Especially people like Paul Dunn who were Seminary teachers and then became a GA.

 

10% from you - 8% to Church and 2% to me.

 

 Simple, they write books. Then the faithful buy them, as there isn't much else they can read that's "Faith Promoting" now a days. If one of the big 15 writes a book, I'll bet there is an almost guarenteed return. Write one book every year or two - and your rich. 

 

Hell, I'll bet they even have minions who write books for them.  I just can't seem one of them soiling themselvs by sitting in front of an evil computer and typing out a book.  No, they probably have assistants for that.  Those assistants, probably have their own assistants and on and on.

 

 

Hay, maybe thats why they stay quiet. Book deals ?   We need to start a postmormon bookstore. Maybe then we can get some of them to come out of the closet. 

 

  Eben
 

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Eben:

 Simple, they write books. Then the faithful buy them, as there isn't much else they can read that's "Faith Promoting" now a days. If one of the big 15 writes a book, I'll bet there is an almost guarenteed return. Write one book every year or two - and your rich. 

 

Hell, I'll bet they even have minions who write books for them.  I just can't seem one of them soiling themselvs by sitting in front of an evil computer and typing out a book.  No, they probably have assistants for that.  Those assistants, probably have their own assistants and on and on.

 

 

Hay, maybe thats why they stay quiet. Book deals ?   We need to start a postmormon bookstore. Maybe then we can get some of them to come out of the closet. 

 

  Eben
 

 

I don't think this is far off.  My TBM brother just published his first church book (I got a copy for Christmas) and is in line to do more.  He's well placed with CES and aspires to be a GA.  (He's already got a GA-type name he uses professionally--he opted for the first initial, middle name combo ala L. Tom.)

 

He would NEVER leave the church even if he thought it was total crap.  He's in too deep professionally, financially and emotionally.

 

 

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howdimissthat:

This is an interesting story and I'm not sure it fits, but Im' telling it anyway.  Elder Marlin Jensen's mother left the church for an apostate group while her husband was a stake president.  I was in that stake years ago when this happened.  The family talked her into coming back after a few months and she remained active until she died a couple of years ago.  Im' sure because she was a woman and not a priesthood holder with an important calling, this wasn't as big of a deal and has long since been forgotten by most people in that stake, I was just a kid and there aren't many around who would remember. 

 

Howdimissthat

  

 That is a very interesting story!  I would love to hear more if you have any other details.

 

Thanks!

 

-L. Tom 

 

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Eben:


Hell, I'll bet they even have minions who write books for them.  I just can't seem one of them soiling themselvs by sitting in front of an evil computer and typing out a book.  No, they probably have assistants for that.  Those assistants, probably have their own assistants and on and on.

 

 

  Eben
 

 

 

This is how Sheri Dew got her start. Ghost writing biographies for GA's. Then she started writing other works... then her own. Now she is the CEO of Deseret Book. $$$

 

I am sure they employ plenty of staff writers (in the credits it should say: this book co-authored by Legion-- for we are many). 

 
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My conspiracy theory:

 

It's all in the money.

 

Considering that people running the lowly jobs just running the Boy Scouts are getting paid more than the PUSA, that's a 6 figure income of over $400K, I'd bet my house that the Profit, Quorum, GA's and what not's are getting 7 figure incomes. They run a business disguised as a church. I certainly would go along with a world wide religious "scam" if it paid ME 7 figures a year!  But then again I've always struggled with money.

 

So I personally don't believe the "higher ups" truly believe in what they preach. At least not 100%. GBH certainly showed signs of cracking under the pressure. He never did sound confident of the church's claims.

 

So that's my simple theory in why I think that anyone who has made it into the LDS Inc business will never up and leave the church publicly. I mean if they talked about committing suicide for premarital sex, I can only imagine what the consequences are for being in the business and wanting "out". The MOB COB boss would never allow it.

 

That's my theory!

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First of all, very few “vested” individuals ever leave any organization. This includes churches, governments, movements, and other organizations. Those at the top do not tend to quit. When was the last time you heard of a Cardinal quitting the Roman Catholic Church?  

 

Secondly, High level Mormons have long tenures with little turn over. So they appear to be more stable then they have been over time. Historically, 10% of the Quorum of the Twelve have ether quit or been excommunicated. In the 20th Century, two members of the 12 were excommunicated and one was dis-fellowshipped.

 

Third, Members of the upper echelon are chosen based on many years of loyalty. These are individuals who have been successful in the secular world and have had increasing positions of responsibility in the Church. If they were going to defect, they would have done so a long time before they were promoted to their high positions.

 

Fourth, they are largely elderly. Humans do not have a tendency to make very many life changing decisions in their golden years.

 

Fifth, once they achieve these positions, they become largely insulated from the real world and are surrounded by handlers who reinforce their world view. They are kept consummately busy and do not have the time to research historical issues. This is combine with the limited time and energy due to their age and fact that they tend not to select historians or theologians.

 

Sixth, leaving would be at great cost. There is monetary and status reward for maintaining these positions. If they left the Church, it would make headlines and they could do the talk show circuit for a couple of months and then they would be forgotten. They would lose status and family. There is a lot on the line.

 

Lastly, In my opinion, they honestly believe in the Church and think they are doing mankind a service.

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There was one in the late '80's. George P. Lee, a native american 70's GA.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Lee

 

 

I'm sure there are others, but he seemed to throw a big ruckus and was more visible.

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L. Tom:
howdimissthat:

This is an interesting story and I'm not sure it fits, but Im' telling it anyway.  Elder Marlin Jensen's mother left the church for an apostate group while her husband was a stake president.  I was in that stake years ago when this happened.  The family talked her into coming back after a few months and she remained active until she died a couple of years ago.  Im' sure because she was a woman and not a priesthood holder with an important calling, this wasn't as big of a deal and has long since been forgotten by most people in that stake, I was just a kid and there aren't many around who would remember. 

 

Howdimissthat

  

 That is a very interesting story!  I would love to hear more if you have any other details.

 

Thanks!

 

-L. Tom 

 

I don't remember a lot of details it was over 40 years ago.  She was quite visible, had a beautiful voice and sang at stake meetings etc.  I was impressed with her, that's probably why I remember.  She actually left the state and went to (I think) Illinios with the group.  I don't know who else was involved, if they werer local or not.  Pres. (Keith I think that was his name) Jensen and Marlin (he wasn't so important at that time but a very nice man) went to wherever she was and tried to talk her into coming home, it took a few months (2-3, not sure) to do that.   I'm thinking (not sure) my dad was in a stake calling and that's how we knew some of the detail.  The Jensen's are from Eden (that area anyway) so we weren't in close contact, like a nieghbor might be.  The stake took in wards in Ogden and the valley, Huntsville, Eden, Liberty, a large area.  I saw her in a SM a couple of years ago, she was living with her daughter who married the son of my former stake pres. small world.  She died shortly after that. 

 

 

 
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There was a guy over on exmormon who posted about his "second annointing" a few months ago.  They have archived it.  He was a SP.  The interesting part being that he had his calling and election made sure.  Quite a few over on exmormon had never heard of that.  I had long ago, but forgot about it until I read his story.  You should go read it as it is very detailed and very interesting. 

 

Also search for Steve's stuff over there--his story, his wife's story, and there is a speech he gave to a gay group that was very good that is posted over there. 

 

As for Steve or being jumped on for being a troll--I never was over on exmo.  I still read over there more than here.  I just don't post all that often on either. 

 
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John Larsen:

First of all, very few “vested” individuals ever leave any organization. This includes churches, governments, movements, and other organizations. Those at the top do not tend to quit. When was the last time you heard of a Cardinal quitting the Roman Catholic Church?  

 

Secondly, High level Mormons have long tenures with little turn over. So they appear to be more stable then they have been over time. Historically, 10% of the Quorum of the Twelve have ether quit or been excommunicated. In the 20th Century, two members of the 12 were excommunicated and one was dis-fellowshipped.

 

Third, Members of the upper echelon are chosen based on many years of loyalty. These are individuals who have been successful in the secular world and have had increasing positions of responsibility in the Church. If they were going to defect, they would have done so a long time before they were promoted to their high positions.

 

Fourth, they are largely elderly. Humans do not have a tendency to make very many life changing decisions in their golden years.

 

Fifth, once they achieve these positions, they become largely insulated from the real world and are surrounded by handlers who reinforce their world view. They are kept consummately busy and do not have the time to research historical issues. This is combine with the limited time and energy due to their age and fact that they tend not to select historians or theologians.

 

Sixth, leaving would be at great cost. There is monetary and status reward for maintaining these positions. If they left the Church, it would make headlines and they could do the talk show circuit for a couple of months and then they would be forgotten. They would lose status and family. There is a lot on the line.

 

Lastly, In my opinion, they honestly believe in the Church and think they are doing mankind a service.

Brilliant... as usual.

 

I'd like to add the following:

 

1.  Family pressures.  The desire to leave a legacy.  To increase family power in the morg.  Maybe your grandson will be called into great power.  The "why" we see the same leadership names generation after generation... kimball, smiths, bensons etc.  Your defection means the suicide of family power.

 

2.  If they retract, they admit they lied sometime earlier.  What did you know and when did you know it becomes the question.

 

3.  Maybe they take the blood oaths a little more serious at the top.  Mutually assured destruction.  Like your no defecting Cardinal example, you also don't see many defections from the mob.

 

 
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White Rabbit:

This is a question for all you smart people on here (and hopefully it makes sense):  Given that there've been lots and lots of church officials, general authorities, et al.  As far as I am aware, there have never been any high-level defections, aside from original members.  Or at least vocal defections.  I am curious to know why this hasn't happened.  (Or maybe I've just not heard about them.)

Great question White Rabbit.  In the early church there were quite a few amusing defections and/or excommunications in the First Presidency (Jesse Gause, Sidney Rigdon, William Law) the Q12 (Thomas B. Marsh, William E. McLellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, Orson Pratt, John F. Boynton, and Lyman E. Johnson) the three witnesses (Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer) but these "defections" seemed to slow down once the Brighamites got to Utah.

 

I would attribute that to the doctrines of blood atonement and polygamy.  The church became very insulated in those early years in Utah, and Brigham's retrenchment in the 1850's solidified his power.  If you study this period and the exploits of Bill Hickman and Orrin Porter Rockwell, you will find that Brigham dealt with dissenters harshly and hastily.  The other members of the quorums were well aware of the fate that awaited them if they became "backsliders."

 

During the transition out of polygamy from 1880-1920, there were many who were confused and disagreed with Wilford Woodruff's Manifesto.  The church itself claimed for many years that it was not a revelation.  Polygamy was alive an well in the Canadian and Mexican colonies, and a rift began to form between the GA's who wanted to phase out polygamy completely (Reed Smoot, Lorenzo Snow) and those who believed in its divine nature (John Taylor, John W. Taylor, Matthias Cowley, Joseph F. Smith).  There are only three apostles, that I know of that have left the church since 1900.  I would attribute this to a number of factors, belief, family connections, inertia, fear, and status.

 

I don't know what you mean by "high level" defections.  But here are the ones that I have heard about since 1900.  There may be others.

 

1.  Matthias F. Cowley, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, resigned 1905.

     http://www.gapages.com/cowlemf1.htm

 

2.  John W. Taylor, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, resigned 1905.

     http://www.gapages.com/taylojw1.htm

 

3.  Richard R. Lyman, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, excommunicated 1943.

     http://www.gapages.com/lymanrr1.htm

 

4.  Paul H. Dunn, Presidency of the Quorum of Seventy, censured 1989.

     http://www.gapages.com/dunnph1.htm

 

5.  George P. Lee, Quorum of the Seventy, excommunicated 1989.

     http://www.gapages.com/leegp1.htm

 

6.  Wendell H. Hall, MTC President Chile, Mission President Argentina 1984.

     Left the church and publishes articles about Mormon racism.

 

7.  Jerrell Chesney, Temple President Oklahoma 2005.

     Left the church quietly in 2006 after feeling "betrayed and abused"

 

8.  Steven Sims, Mission President Portugal 1999.

     Left the church and posts on RfM regularly. 

 

9.  Ken Clark, Institute Director Idaho 2002.

     http://exmormonfoundation.org/node/13  Left the church after feeling "lied 

     to and used."

 

Those are the few that I can think of, but I am sure there are more out there, even some of you lurkers.

 
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1.  Matthias Cowley

 

2.  John W. Taylor

 

3. Richard R. Lyman

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John Larsen:
 

 

1.  Matthias Cowley

 

2.  John W. Taylor

 

3. Richard R. Lyman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You read my mind, while I was digging up the links.  Hehehe.  Thanks!

 
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John Larsen:

 

1.  Matthias Cowley

 

2.  John W. Taylor

 

3. Richard R. Lyman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: we don't see many Cowleys, Taylors or Lymans at the very top since these guys left the church.  Their defection dealt a death knell to Morg power for that family.  If that's not pressure to stay in...

 
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AZEvilSingleGuy:
Eben:


Hell, I'll bet they even have minions who write books for them.  I just can't seem one of them soiling themselvs by sitting in front of an evil computer and typing out a book.  No, they probably have assistants for that.  Those assistants, probably have their own assistants and on and on.

 

 

  Eben
 

 

 

This is how Sheri Dew got her start. Ghost writing biographies for GA's. Then she started writing other works... then her own. Now she is the CEO of Deseret Book. $$$

 

I am sure they employ plenty of staff writers (in the credits it should say: this book co-authored by Legion-- for we are many). 

 

 

Sheri Dew is just too righteous for regular folks. She gives me the creeps!
 
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I think John Larsen and Tylersrus have hit the nail on the head. 

 

One more comparison.....

Very few of the corporate whistleblowers I've heard about are the CEOs or top executives of their companies.  I wouldn't expect LDS, Inc. to be different in that respect.   

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Was Paul H. Dunn ex'd?
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anonymoose:
Was Paul H. Dunn ex'd?

 

Not to my knowledge.  He was made "emeritus" status, and removed from public view.  What he did wasn't so "bad" as it was "embarrassing."  It just didn't make for good PR to have those heart-wrenching and inspirational stories by so...not true...

 

 

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So, you can lie for the church, as long as it's in a favorable light. But you can't tell the truth about it if it's less than favorable.
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anonymoose:
So, you can lie for the church, as long as it's in a favorable light. But you can't tell the truth about it if it's less than favorable.

 

Kinda like being a prophet when acting like one..

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My Turn:
anonymoose:
So, you can lie for the church, as long as it's in a favorable light. But you can't tell the truth about it if it's less than favorable.

 

Kinda like being a prophet when acting like one..

 

Here, growing up in the Morridor and seeing the seminary council representative and knowing what he was like on the other side of the street, I can appreciate a corrollary to that:

 

A Mormon is only a Mormon when acting like a Mormon.

 

And I think most of you have heard the reason why you always take two Mormons fishing with you--because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer.

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Excuse me... I don't mean to sound naive here... but what's a "troll"?   Do they not like new people at exmo?  I've never posted there.  

 

Also, what's the status of Grant H. Palmer?  I know he was disfellowshipped over his book but did he go inactive, resign, been ex'd?  Personally, I don't know how he could still believe and go to church.

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OK, I have a question related to this: Do the top 15 get paid for writing books. The father of one of my realtives is pretty high up in CES in this area and he said the church keeps all of the book profits for the big 15. Yea or Nay anyone? Also, don't be afraid of exmormon.org, they don't call you a troll (troublemaker) unless you start posting your testimony or talk about how there's still a lot of good in the church etc.
 
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Noted Mormons who left the church:

 

Three witnesses to the BoM, Oliver Cowdry, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris all left the church. Oliver Cowdry and Martin Harris were re-baptized into the church.

 

David Whitmer recanted his testimony as a witness for the book. 

 
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Someone may have already said something like this (I didn't bother reading all of the replies) but I would say it is for the same reason the high ups at Enron didn't say anything. They benefit too much from the deception.
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Lilith:

My conspiracy theory:

 

It's all in the money.

 

Considering that people running the lowly jobs just running the Boy Scouts are getting paid more than the PUSA, that's a 6 figure income of over $400K, I'd bet my house that the Profit, Quorum, GA's and what not's are getting 7 figure incomes. They run a business disguised as a church. I certainly would go along with a world wide religious "scam" if it paid ME 7 figures a year!  But then again I've always struggled with money.

 

So I personally don't believe the "higher ups" truly believe in what they preach. At least not 100%. GBH certainly showed signs of cracking under the pressure. He never did sound confident of the church's claims.

 

So that's my simple theory in why I think that anyone who has made it into the LDS Inc business will never up and leave the church publicly. I mean if they talked about committing suicide for premarital sex, I can only imagine what the consequences are for being in the business and wanting "out". The MOB COB boss would never allow it.

 

That's my theory!

 

 I was still under the impression that the church didn't pay GAs, etc.  Maybe I've just been niave.  One of the big things the church likes to say is that the leaders are all laymen, and not paid.  But, I always wondered how someone can be a GA and be self-sufficient.

 

Certainly, it would make sense that the higher ups would be paid. 

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John Larsen:

First of all, very few “vested” individuals ever leave any organization. This includes churches, governments, movements, and other organizations. Those at the top do not tend to quit. When was the last time you heard of a Cardinal quitting the Roman Catholic Church?  

 

Secondly, High level Mormons have long tenures with little turn over. So they appear to be more stable then they have been over time. Historically, 10% of the Quorum of the Twelve have ether quit or been excommunicated. In the 20th Century, two members of the 12 were excommunicated and one was dis-fellowshipped.

 

Third, Members of the upper echelon are chosen based on many years of loyalty. These are individuals who have been successful in the secular world and have had increasing positions of responsibility in the Church. If they were going to defect, they would have done so a long time before they were promoted to their high positions.

 

Fourth, they are largely elderly. Humans do not have a tendency to make very many life changing decisions in their golden years.

 

Fifth, once they achieve these positions, they become largely insulated from the real world and are surrounded by handlers who reinforce their world view. They are kept consummately busy and do not have the time to research historical issues. This is combine with the limited time and energy due to their age and fact that they tend not to select historians or theologians.

 

Sixth, leaving would be at great cost. There is monetary and status reward for maintaining these positions. If they left the Church, it would make headlines and they could do the talk show circuit for a couple of months and then they would be forgotten. They would lose status and family. There is a lot on the line.

 

Lastly, In my opinion, they honestly believe in the Church and think they are doing mankind a service.

 

 Ah, sweet!  Thanks!  This is a great explanation.   

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- (ST TNG: “Q Who”)

 
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