I had to sleep on this overnight to make sure it was the right thing to post this, because I really don’t want to take a risk of getting my DH in hot water right now.   This information comes from Stake Bishopric Meeting (a meeting held once per month where the Stake Presidency counsels all of the bishops and their counselors), and I’m sure the content of those meetings are not meant to be shared unless instructed to do so.  For this reason, I’m not even asking DH’s permission, which might sound really bad, but it’s for his own protection. If the priesthood leaders who presume they preside over me ever somehow caught wind that I post on this site, it wouldn’t be difficult for them to find which one is me, I’m sure.  So let me make it clear that it’s my decision and my decision alone to pass this along. 

So with that said, as most of you probably know, my DH is the 1^st counselor in the bishopric.  Btw, he has asked to be released because he feels he needs to be spending his time with his family right now as our children and I make this difficult transition out of the church, but the bishop is dragging his feet, and we both agree that he is stalling because he believes that I’m going to come to my senses.  Anyway, he came home last night from Stake Bishopric Meeting in a TERRIBLE mood.  When I asked him what was wrong, he at first refused to tell me because he was afraid I would be too angry.  A little bit later he went up to bed obviously stewing, so I again asked him to please tell me what was wrong.  He started with how he had first attended Round Table where they discussed collecting for Friends of Scouting and doing the re-chartering—both of which my DH is in charge of, and NOT happy about for many reasons that I won’t get into.  So with that sour taste in his mouth, he then walks into SBM, only to have the topic of discussion be Proposition 8.  Apparently, a letter was sent down to the Stake President, signed by the 1^st Presidency, stating the church’s stance.  My DH didn’t get to actually read the letter, but copies were passed out to each bishop with instruction that if they hear of any member or their wards opposing the church’s position, they are to be reported to the Stake President immediately.  (The worst part for me is that our SP’s own brother whom he claims to love is gay.) The SP went on to state how there were people in our area who were collecting money to oppose the Proposition, and this was unacceptable.  Hmmm.  So apparently it’s okay for bishops to put collection boxes outside their offices and Stake Presidents to start web sites to collect donations to support Proposition 8, but those who oppose have no right to do the same?  My DH was sickened to his core.  Everything inside of him is screaming that this is wrong.  Not only is he opposed to Proposition 8 himself, but he expressed how he just cannot believe that the church can justify taking such an active stance in government—obviously it goes against even our own Articles of Faith.

I think he just lost his last bit of faith in the LDS Church.  He’s been pondering about whether or not to give the bishop a date that he needs to be released by, and he will now be doing that. 

So far, I have not written a letter or signed the petition to the First Presidency on the Signing For Something web site because of the fact that my DH was in the bishopric and there is enough spotlight on our family right now without me being invited to a disciplinary counsel.  I was already warned by my SP that if he finds me spreading my reasons for leaving he will not hesitate to excommunicate me, as his job first and foremost is to protect the church. Trust me, I'm not intimidated by his threat, but I'd rather not put my family through the drama.  As I've contemplated whether or not it was the right thing for me to remain silent or not, I've wondered if with all those signatures that they would even really take notice of mine.  Now that the SP has made it clear that he is on the lookout, I’m probably asking for it if I sign.  I won’t do it without first letting my DH know of my decision, but it’s looking like Signing For Something has just recruited one more signature. 

Bastards.  TSCC is looking really stupid right now.

 

Good luck with your situation, and remember that they can't do anything to you without your consent.  

 

I've said it many times:  TSCC is absolutely incorrect in their stance on Prop 8.  The harder they fight, the more the flawed policies will be exposed.

Brad Pitt just donated $100,000 to fight against Prop 8....maybe this effort of the church will bankrupt it. Next they'll be using tything/fast-offerings to shore up the effort.

This is really scary to me. I absolutely expected the church leaders to do everything possible to manipulate their members into seeing things the church's way; it's something they've always done so it came as no surprise. The leaders could still claim (lamely) they their members had the ability to choose for themselves one way or the other. Now, though, it sounds like they plan on punishing those who don't conform to the church's beliefs. They are stepping over the line marked Manipulation into the territory of Force. When and if the punishments begin, I hope those on the receiving end refuse to be silenced.

What is the possibility, Wanderer, of you talking anonymously to the media?

Thank you for posting this.  I live in Utah as well, but since I no longer attend church I haven't been aware of how the church has been reacting to those who might oppose Prop 8.  Sounds like they're getting scared and are trying to intimidate the members to toe the line.

 

I wonder how much more of this nonsense continues before we see an exodus from the TSCC.

This is extremely disappointing, but not surprising.

 

The church is into all-out threat and intimdation mode.

 

I won't be intimidated, but they know that there are others who are in vulnerable positions for one reason or another that they can exploit, and they will.

 

I again call for all concerned members to SPEAK OUT.

 

Only if we actually SPEAK OUT will we have any chance of throwing off their shackles. 

I am trying to find out right now from my family what they are saying in church here in AZ, but thank for posting this, it is good to know.

Wanderer:
<snip>

I think he just lost his last bit of faith in the LDS Church.  He’s been pondering about whether or not to give the bishop a date that he needs to be released by, and he will now be doing that. 

<snip>

 

 Wishfully thinking here that this would push your husband and you into writing letters of resignation for your family and walking away while still the 1st counselor and then go public with why.  The church's actions here are incredibly, incredibly offensive and until enough people start walking away, they are going to continue to trample all over the rights and feelings of those members allowing them to do this.

 

I'm so grateful that I wrote my resignation letter in April and reclaimed my own life. It tears me up to see my ex-wife and especially my children still caught in this deceitful organization.

 

Good luck Wanderer, in navigating the difficult shoals ahead.

 

Max

razrsharp:

This is really scary to me. I absolutely expected the church leaders to do everything possible to manipulate their members into seeing things the church's way; it's something they've always done so it came as no surprise. The leaders could still claim (lamely) they their members had the ability to choose for themselves one way or the other. Now, though, it sounds like they plan on punishing those who don't conform to the church's beliefs. They are stepping over the line marked Manipulation into the territory of Force. When and if the punishments begin, I hope those on the receiving end refuse to be silenced.

What is the possibility, Wanderer, of you talking anonymously to the media?

 

If I could be assured anonymity, I MIGHT consider it, but to be honest it scares the sh!t out of me! Let me make that clear that I'm not intimidated by any threat of discipline by the church, but being assertive out in the real world is something I'm just learning to be.

NoLongerASheeple:

Wanderer:
<snip>

I think he just lost his last bit of faith in the LDS Church.  He’s been pondering about whether or not to give the bishop a date that he needs to be released by, and he will now be doing that. 

<snip>

 

 Wishfully thinking here that this would push your husband and you into writing letters of resignation for your family and walking away while still the 1st counselor and then go public with why.  The church's actions here are incredibly, incredibly offensive and until enough people start walking away, they are going to continue to trample all over the rights and feelings of those members allowing them to do this.

 

I'm so grateful that I wrote my resignation letter in April and reclaimed my own life. It tears me up to see my ex-wife and especially my children still caught in this deceitful organization.

 

Good luck Wanderer, in navigating the difficult shoals ahead.

 

Max

 

That would be a huge leap.  Other than a few close friends and a handful of ward members, only a few members of our family know about me-- his dad (never active), step mom (exed as a teenager for getting pregnant out of wed lock), 2 of my cousins that I'm really close to (one already apostatized years ago), and my brother (came home from his mission, removed his g's and quietly went inactive).  I'm not sure this is how I want them and our loved ones to find out. The bishop and SP know my DH supports me in my decision, but they still assume all is well with his own testimony.  We'll see what happens though.  

 

Wanderer, your post is so interesting.  I can relate to you quite a bit, and for some reason had a moment of clarity reading this just now -- look at all the manipulation going on, from the 1st presidency about this topic, down to your own stake president, to the point that you have to think about it overnight before you're even able to post here.  To post your own feelings about it on an anonymous board.   Your husband can't even talk to you about it for hours.  What is this?

 

I don't care what the issue is -- this time it's Proposition 8.  What will it be next time?  As a membership, we're being manhandled.   

 

Wanderer:

 Wishfully thinking here that this would push your husband and you into writing letters of resignation for your family and walking away while still the 1st counselor and then go public with why.  The church's actions here are incredibly, incredibly offensive and until enough people start walking away, they are going to continue to trample all over the rights and feelings of those members allowing them to do this.

 

I'm so grateful that I wrote my resignation letter in April and reclaimed my own life. It tears me up to see my ex-wife and especially my children still caught in this deceitful organization.

 

Good luck Wanderer, in navigating the difficult shoals ahead.

 

Max

 

That would be a huge leap.  Other than a few close friends and a handful of ward members, only a few members of our family know about me-- his dad (never active), step mom (exed as a teenager for getting pregnant out of wed lock), 2 of my cousins that I'm really close to (one already apostatized years ago), and my brother (came home from his mission, removed his g's and quietly went inactive).  I'm not sure this is how I want them and our loved ones to find out. The bishop and SP know my DH supports me in my decision, but they still assume all is well with his own testimony.  We'll see what happens though.  

 

 Think of the opportunity!  A statement is always that much more powerful when it comes completely out of left field, especially when it is for reasons of integrity.  

 

Sorry, Wanderer.  I'm don't want to put any pressure on you but...but...but... ::bites fingers to stop typing:: ::bites fingers harder::  ::finds paper towel to clean up blood::

 

Like I said earlier, good luck.

 

Max

 

P.S.  Having been through the pain of letting my 6th and 7th generation TBM family know about my own loss of faith, I really do understand your position.  I have been fortunate that my family is choosing to love and accept me anyway, and I am very grateful for that. 

Is it just me or is the church being way more heavy handed here? I mean, I know they were involved in lobbying for the gay marriage ban in the first place, but I don't remember all the pressure and threats. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. Still, this seems more intense and pushy than before. I wonder if this an example of how Monson will be governing the church.

Methinks they "protesteth" too much....(are there "higher-ups" struggling with this problem, and they're trying to get rid of it on the top levels???)

Wow. Just wow. Every time I think the insanity could not get any crazier, it just does.

 

BTW, it's a CALIFORNIA measure. Why the heck are they intimidating Utah members? Nevermind. I already know the answer.

I have to say "WOW!" too.  I wish I could do more.

I suspect strongly that the issue is not the issue here.

 

The Church is under pressure, growth flat etc. and they are clueless about how to repond to that from inside their traditional mindset.

 

So along comes this issue, which, because of their conditioning, they will see as a bellweather issue, so all their confusion and frustration will be focussed here, in the belief that God is using this as some litmus test of their faith (usual fundy wonky logic).

 

So it's like "OK, we know the Titanic is in trouble, but get out a chalkline, and let's be sure the deck chairs are in perfect line". Not to mention "And don't let any homosexuals sit on them!"

 

Little do they appreciate how their extreme stance has just clarified the alienation of another whole group of smart liberals, and pushed them closer to departure. 

 

Another billboard anyone?? But of course it is us that is seducing people away, not merely creating a soft landing for all those folks their extreme position and actions are pushing out the doors and windows!

 

None so blind ........................... 

 

Daryl 

Kind of OT here but at first glance I read the title of this thread as "Threats in Our Utah Stake to Those Who Oppose Prostitution" and I had to do a double take ... 

Wanderer:

I had to sleep on this overnight to make sure it was the right thing to post this, because I really don’t want to take a risk of getting my DH in hot water right now.   This information comes from Stake Bishopric Meeting (a meeting held once per month where the Stake Presidency counsels all of the bishops and their counselors), and I’m sure the content of those meetings are not meant to be shared unless instructed to do so.  For this reason, I’m not even asking DH’s permission, which might sound really bad, but it’s for his own protection. If the priesthood leaders who presume they preside over me ever somehow caught wind that I post on this site, it wouldn’t be difficult for them to find which one is me, I’m sure.  So let me make it clear that it’s my decision and my decision alone to pass this along. 

So with that said, as most of you probably know, my DH is the 1^st counselor in the bishopric.  Btw, he has asked to be released because he feels he needs to be spending his time with his family right now as our children and I make this difficult transition out of the church, but the bishop is dragging his feet, and we both agree that he is stalling because he believes that I’m going to come to my senses.  Anyway, he came home last night from Stake Bishopric Meeting in a TERRIBLE mood.  When I asked him what was wrong, he at first refused to tell me because he was afraid I would be too angry.  A little bit later he went up to bed obviously stewing, so I again asked him to please tell me what was wrong.  He started with how he had first attended Round Table where they discussed collecting for Friends of Scouting and doing the re-chartering—both of which my DH is in charge of, and NOT happy about for many reasons that I won’t get into.  So with that sour taste in his mouth, he then walks into SBM, only to have the topic of discussion be Proposition 8.  Apparently, a letter was sent down to the Stake President, signed by the 1^st Presidency, stating the church’s stance.  My DH didn’t get to actually read the letter, but copies were passed out to each bishop with instruction that if they hear of any member or their wards opposing the church’s position, they are to be reported to the Stake President immediately.  (The worst part for me is that our SP’s own brother whom he claims to love is gay.) The SP went on to state how there were people in our area who were collecting money to oppose the Proposition, and this was unacceptable.  Hmmm.  So apparently it’s okay for bishops to put collection boxes outside their offices and Stake Presidents to start web sites to collect donations to support Proposition 8, but those who oppose have no right to do the same?  My DH was sickened to his core.  Everything inside of him is screaming that this is wrong.  Not only is he opposed to Proposition 8 himself, but he expressed how he just cannot believe that the church can justify taking such an active stance in government—obviously it goes against even our own Articles of Faith.

I think he just lost his last bit of faith in the LDS Church.  He’s been pondering about whether or not to give the bishop a date that he needs to be released by, and he will now be doing that. 

So far, I have not written a letter or signed the petition to the First Presidency on the Signing For Something web site because of the fact that my DH was in the bishopric and there is enough spotlight on our family right now without me being invited to a disciplinary counsel.  I was already warned by my SP that if he finds me spreading my reasons for leaving he will not hesitate to excommunicate me, as his job first and foremost is to protect the church. Trust me, I'm not intimidated by his threat, but I'd rather not put my family through the drama.  As I've contemplated whether or not it was the right thing for me to remain silent or not, I've wondered if with all those signatures that they would even really take notice of mine.  Now that the SP has made it clear that he is on the lookout, I’m probably asking for it if I sign.  I won’t do it without first letting my DH know of my decision, but it’s looking like Signing For Something has just recruited one more signature. 

 Holy Sh!t  !!!!!

 

That is so crazy but you know what?  I'm really glad your husband has been able to sit in on this meeting.  I think, its a "tender mercy of the LORD" that he hasn't been released yet.  It sounds like this has been a real eye opener.

 

My husband and I signed, and I wonder who knows about it that we know.  I even linked to it on my blog..But so far no one has brought it up to me. Do you guys think that my SP was notified? that just tickles me!

 

 

 

 

 

limes:

 

Wanderer, your post is so interesting.  I can relate to you quite a bit, and for some reason had a moment of clarity reading this just now -- look at all the manipulation going on, from the 1st presidency about this topic, down to your own stake president, to the point that you have to think about it overnight before you're even able to post here.  To post your own feelings about it on an anonymous board.   Your husband can't even talk to you about it for hours.  What is this?

 

I don't care what the issue is -- this time it's Proposition 8.  What will it be next time?  As a membership, we're being manhandled.   

 

 

limes--these thoughts are consuming my mind right now.  I feel the same.  In fact as I read, I am literally shaking.  I know that sounds dramatic, but manipulation has caused some serious damage in my life.  Is this an opportunity not only for me to stand out against something that is flat out abusive and wrong, but to allow healing and growth as an idividual?  Maybe.  I'm not sure how to proceed yet.  It's difficult to get past the cog dis that is making me sick to my stomach.  I think I need to post my feelings and perceptions on taking a stand.  Maybe the advice and wisdom of those on this board would be helpful. 

NoLongerASheeple:

Wanderer:

 Wishfully thinking here that this would push your husband and you into writing letters of resignation for your family and walking away while still the 1st counselor and then go public with why.  The church's actions here are incredibly, incredibly offensive and until enough people start walking away, they are going to continue to trample all over the rights and feelings of those members allowing them to do this.

 

I'm so grateful that I wrote my resignation letter in April and reclaimed my own life. It tears me up to see my ex-wife and especially my children still caught in this deceitful organization.

 

Good luck Wanderer, in navigating the difficult shoals ahead.

 

Max

 

That would be a huge leap.  Other than a few close friends and a handful of ward members, only a few members of our family know about me-- his dad (never active), step mom (exed as a teenager for getting pregnant out of wed lock), 2 of my cousins that I'm really close to (one already apostatized years ago), and my brother (came home from his mission, removed his g's and quietly went inactive).  I'm not sure this is how I want them and our loved ones to find out. The bishop and SP know my DH supports me in my decision, but they still assume all is well with his own testimony.  We'll see what happens though.  

 

 Think of the opportunity!  A statement is always that much more powerful when it comes completely out of left field, especially when it is for reasons of integrity.  

 

Sorry, Wanderer.  I'm don't want to put any pressure on you but...but...but... ::bites fingers to stop typing:: ::bites fingers harder::  ::finds paper towel to clean up blood::

 

Like I said earlier, good luck.

 

Max

 

P.S.  Having been through the pain of letting my 6th and 7th generation TBM family know about my own loss of faith, I really do understand your position.  I have been fortunate that my family is choosing to love and accept me anyway, and I am very grateful for that. 

 

You don't need to apologize--just know this is a very hard thing for me on so many levels.  Integrity IS important to me, and I absolutely loath manipulation and abuse.  My DH and I need to have a good, long chat.  I didn't expect this to affect me so deeply!  Sheesh!!

 

I am open-mouthed with shock. I guess I shouldn't be, but I feel like I've been blind-sided by this. I knew the church wasn't working for me and was making me more miserable than happy. I knew that the historical "facts" we learned in Sunday School were a bunch of crap. But I just found out recently about the whole September Six thing at BYU. I couldn't believe they were that blatant. I was talking with some liberal mormons about it and they dismissed it all. Oh, that was back in '93 the church is moving in a more open direction now. They pointed to the publishing of RSR and that Grant Palmer was only disfellowshipped instead of exed and are all psyched about the release of the Joseph Smith Papers which they think will bring a new level of openness at least among informed members. I couldn't say anything---I just sat there and thought how could I have missed all this in '93. How could I have been so oblivious???

 

Now, Wanderer, this latest development of blatant attempts to enforce politics on members. It makes me sick to my stomach. Thank you so much for posting this and to everyone that has the courage to stand against this. I am signing right now. What else can I do? Count me in.

confusedconvert:

Wanderer:

I had to sleep on this overnight to make sure it was the right thing to post this, because I really don’t want to take a risk of getting my DH in hot water right now.   This information comes from Stake Bishopric Meeting (a meeting held once per month where the Stake Presidency counsels all of the bishops and their counselors), and I’m sure the content of those meetings are not meant to be shared unless instructed to do so.  For this reason, I’m not even asking DH’s permission, which might sound really bad, but it’s for his own protection. If the priesthood leaders who presume they preside over me ever somehow caught wind that I post on this site, it wouldn’t be difficult for them to find which one is me, I’m sure.  So let me make it clear that it’s my decision and my decision alone to pass this along. 

So with that said, as most of you probably know, my DH is the 1^st counselor in the bishopric.  Btw, he has asked to be released because he feels he needs to be spending his time with his family right now as our children and I make this difficult transition out of the church, but the bishop is dragging his feet, and we both agree that he is stalling because he believes that I’m going to come to my senses.  Anyway, he came home last night from Stake Bishopric Meeting in a TERRIBLE mood.  When I asked him what was wrong, he at first refused to tell me because he was afraid I would be too angry.  A little bit later he went up to bed obviously stewing, so I again asked him to please tell me what was wrong.  He started with how he had first attended Round Table where they discussed collecting for Friends of Scouting and doing the re-chartering—both of which my DH is in charge of, and NOT happy about for many reasons that I won’t get into.  So with that sour taste in his mouth, he then walks into SBM, only to have the topic of discussion be Proposition 8.  Apparently, a letter was sent down to the Stake President, signed by the 1^st Presidency, stating the church’s stance.  My DH didn’t get to actually read the letter, but copies were passed out to each bishop with instruction that if they hear of any member or their wards opposing the church’s position, they are to be reported to the Stake President immediately.  (The worst part for me is that our SP’s own brother whom he claims to love is gay.) The SP went on to state how there were people in our area who were collecting money to oppose the Proposition, and this was unacceptable.  Hmmm.  So apparently it’s okay for bishops to put collection boxes outside their offices and Stake Presidents to start web sites to collect donations to support Proposition 8, but those who oppose have no right to do the same?  My DH was sickened to his core.  Everything inside of him is screaming that this is wrong.  Not only is he opposed to Proposition 8 himself, but he expressed how he just cannot believe that the church can justify taking such an active stance in government—obviously it goes against even our own Articles of Faith.

I think he just lost his last bit of faith in the LDS Church.  He’s been pondering about whether or not to give the bishop a date that he needs to be released by, and he will now be doing that. 

So far, I have not written a letter or signed the petition to the First Presidency on the Signing For Something web site because of the fact that my DH was in the bishopric and there is enough spotlight on our family right now without me being invited to a disciplinary counsel.  I was already warned by my SP that if he finds me spreading my reasons for leaving he will not hesitate to excommunicate me, as his job first and foremost is to protect the church. Trust me, I'm not intimidated by his threat, but I'd rather not put my family through the drama.  As I've contemplated whether or not it was the right thing for me to remain silent or not, I've wondered if with all those signatures that they would even really take notice of mine.  Now that the SP has made it clear that he is on the lookout, I’m probably asking for it if I sign.  I won’t do it without first letting my DH know of my decision, but it’s looking like Signing For Something has just recruited one more signature. 

 Holy Sh!t  !!!!!

 

That is so crazy but you know what?  I'm really glad your husband has been able to sit in on this meeting.  I think, its a "tender mercy of the LORD" that he hasn't been released yet.  It sounds like this has been a real eye opener.

 

My husband and I signed, and I wonder who knows about it that we know.  I even linked to it on my blog..But so far no one has brought it up to me. Do you guys think that my SP was notified? that just tickles me!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been thinking about that too.  Ironically, just 2 weeks before my DH was called into the bishopric, I had just made a decision to take a break from church in order to get clear on all the cog dis going on in my head.  When the calling came, I knew it was going to play a part in either making or breaking my testimony, but I didn't imagine that it would cause my DH to struggle too.  I honestly don't think the struggle would be as great if he wasn't choosing to be there for me as I go through this process while being in the bishopric.  He's actually been getting physically sick--and he has the most amazing immune system I know. 

 

I don't know if all SP's are reacting in this way or not.  Ours is pretty bold.  He loves to call people to repentance and is very straight forward.  I used to serve in a stake calling, and in one of the ward conferences I was visiting, he called them "a bunch of dead turkeys" and told them they all needed to repent so that the Lord could bless them, because they were struggling with a lot of inactive people in their ward.  There were several people, who have been killing themselves with 2 or 3 callings at a time to make up for the lack, that were sobbing by the end of it.  Harsh.

Where is the free agency in all of this?  I wish my wife was at a PEC meeting and they brought this up, I believe my wife would be extremely offended and it might spark her interest in other things, like the truth!

You know there is a very fine line between intimidation and actual threat. The "do it or else" mentality goes against even their own teachings let alone the government interference here. Out of all the things I have read lately about the prop 8/church, this ticks me off the most. Wanderer, it was with courage you took a chance to share this with us... know that you will have OUR support should you take that courage a step further. Hugs, Vickie

mcldc:
Where is the free agency in all of this?  I wish my wife was at a PEC meeting and they brought this up, I believe my wife would be extremely offended and it might spark her interest in other things, like the truth!

 

My husband holds free agency--the right to choose for one's self--very high.  It always has been very important to him, regardless of his religious belief.  And yet he is also one to give people the benefit of the doubt, and is very slow to judge, therefore he has been very forgiving of the imperfections of the leaders in our church.  This time they really crossed the line though.

Wanderer:

mcldc:
Where is the free agency in all of this?  I wish my wife was at a PEC meeting and they brought this up, I believe my wife would be extremely offended and it might spark her interest in other things, like the truth!

 

My husband holds free agency--the right to choose for one's self--very high.  It always has been very important to him, regardless of his religious belief.  And yet he is also one to give people the benefit of the doubt, and is very slow to judge, therefore he has been very forgiving of the imperfections of the leaders in our church.  This time they really crossed the line though.

I am sure your husband is a great counselor.  That is why he has such a touch time with what was presented in the meeting, it takes away the agency of the members in the stake unless they are willing to deal with the consequences. 

 

This makes me sick. SICK!

 

What the hell is wrong with these people?  Free agency my ass!  

 

The church is telling it's members what to believe, how to think, how to vote, and taking their time, money and talents to push their own agenda.  I can't believe that I used to call myself a Mormon.  

 

This is insane.  Monson is out of his mind if he thinks this is going to strengthen anything in the church.  It's going to tear it apart. 

wintersfootsteps:
 

This is insane.  Monson is out of his mind if he thinks this is going to strengthen anything in the church.  It's going to tear it apart. 

 

 We can only hope.

 

Grape Nephi:

wintersfootsteps:
 

This is insane.  Monson is out of his mind if he thinks this is going to strengthen anything in the church.  It's going to tear it apart. 

 

 We can only hope.

 

 

I pray everyday for this to happen!

Wouldn't it be great if they lost their tax exempt staus over this?

athena:
Wouldn't it be great if they lost their tax exempt staus over this?

 

 They should.  There is no reason they should be tax exempt if they are pulling crap like this... it should have been taken away from them a long time ago if you ask me.

If anyone has a copy of this letter-- please post it on wikileaks. It is time to start gathering data against these freaks. They need to loose at least their tax exempt status.

 

They are not only going out of their way to raise money to fight this-- they are intimidating people like Flat Lander and Wander's whole stake if they try to support it. They are worse than lobbyists-- they are like the teamster's union. To think they have the nerve to tell the media that they let their members make their own decisions. At first that was laughable, but now it is downright offensive.

I find this issue facinating. Interestingly enough, I find the reason why I have to support Gay Marriage as a moral obligation. Whether or not I agree is moot. Who am I to say that someone can or cannot be married. Unless I can prove some tangible harm to society, I cannot stand in the way of how people define their commitment to another person. For me to say that I am married, and thereby I have proven commitment to my wfie, and then in the next breath deny that commitment to another couple is hypocritical. The law may only current recognize one form of marriage, but I really find it interesting that a cultural definition of family and commitment can be legislated. I read an interesting article today and I wish I had the link. The argument of the article is that we need to "privatize" or "outsource" marriage and abolish the legal institution. Then people who want to be commited to each other could find a religion or secular group to marry them. The argument being that people should have the right to choose and with the current line of Supreme Court ruling. And I view the church's attempt to force the nation to conform to their standard and their way of life. You would have thought that a religion that once was persecuted for its stand on marriage would respect those who are persecuted for their stance.

There's no strong-arming going on here.  One woman's account is not gospel truth, first of all.  Another thing is that Proposition 8 actually supports gay rights, so I don't understand why the woman's panties are in a wad.  Next, Church members believe that the Church is governed by modern revelation from God to the current Prophet.  We sustain the Prophet in General Conference and promise to follow Him.  If we can't, that means we don't have the faith necessary to maintain active membership.  Contention is of the devil and has no place among the members.  This is all pretty basic stuff.  I don't understand your visceral response

 

THIS WAS THE EMAIL MESSAGE I GOT FROM A TBM FRIEND WHO LIVES IN SALT LAKE.  I WAS CURIOUS IF SHE HAD HEARD OF ANYTHING LIKE THIS IN HER STAKE THERE.

THIS WOMAN IS VERY SMART AND WELL EDUCATED.  SHE ISN'T A DUMMY AND HAS ONLY BEEN A MEMBER FOR ABOUT SIX YEARS.  SHE SAYS THAT SHE IS A DEMOCRATE.

AGGGHHHHHHH!  I WONDER WHY SHE THINKS PROP 8 IS "ACTUALLY SUPPORTS GAY RIGHTS"  (am I missing something here?)

Ladyinthehat:

There's no strong-arming going on here.  One woman's account is not gospel truth, first of all.  Another thing is that Proposition 8 actually supports gay rights, so I don't understand why the woman's panties are in a wad.  Next, Church members believe that the Church is governed by modern revelation from God to the current Prophet.  We sustain the Prophet in General Conference and promise to follow Him.  If we can't, that means we don't have the faith necessary to maintain active membership.  Contention is of the devil and has no place among the members.  This is all pretty basic stuff.  I don't understand your visceral response

 

THIS WAS THE EMAIL MESSAGE I GOT FROM A TBM FRIEND WHO LIVES IN SALT LAKE.  I WAS CURIOUS IF SHE HAD HEARD OF ANYTHING LIKE THIS IN HER STAKE THERE.

THIS WOMAN IS VERY SMART AND WELL EDUCATED.  SHE ISN'T A DUMMY AND HAS ONLY BEEN A MEMBER FOR ABOUT SIX YEARS.  SHE SAYS THAT SHE IS A DEMOCRATE.

AGGGHHHHHHH!  I WONDER WHY SHE THINKS PROP 8 IS "ACTUALLY SUPPORTS GAY RIGHTS"  (am I missing something here?)

 

 Well, Prop 8 wouldn't overturn exisiting legislation regarding domestic partnerships, but that's a strange way to say that it supports gay rights.

     Wanderer I want to sincerely thank you for your post. It struck a chord in me and I am sending my resignation in tomorrow.  I have been putting it of for no reason.  I just thought it no big deal, I see now it is important to let the church know I choose to not be associated with them anymore, and that they don't have a choice in the matter. It is up to me to decide with whom I associate not the other way around!

 

     Flat Lander just to let you know, you now have two new signatures on you petition, my wife and I. I have a brother who is gay and see no reason he should not be allowed to marry someone he loves. 

I don't know if it has been posted (I posted the ERA amendment... time to do this one...)

 

Here's the CA Prop 8...

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IN THE TITLE, it says "ELIMINATES THE RIGHTS OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY".

Excuse me, but it says "RIGHTS" it does NOT say "PRIVILEDGES". So, this law would be unconstitutional as it DOES limit the "rights" of a certain group of people.

MORMONS and all religious right-winged, are incorrect. These amendments, ALL, are written to limit the "RIGHTS" of a certain people BECAUSE of their sexual orientation.

 

I know that in CA, they list what the expected fiscal impact the amendment will have. It is listed as several million dollars in sales tax revenue, for a few short years, none expected in the long run.

I beg to differ. Think about it...

The same-gendered couple will spend the same amount on "discretionary" household goods (and their close friends will spend on them for house warmings and etc.) if they are "legal" or not. That end of the arguement is not really very valid.

Secondly, it has a GREAT impact in the long run. The states that do not recognize same-genered marriages run the real risk of those people to refuse to do business in the state, instead starting businesses, and employment in "friendly" states. If a gay couple would want to adopt a child (several states still maintain that a child must be adopted to a MARRIED COUPLE), they again, may leave the state - and never come back.

That would have a HUGE fiscal impact on the state of California in the long run.

Rudy DC:

     Wanderer I want to sincerely thank you for your post. It struck a chord in me and I am sending my resignation in tomorrow.  I have been putting it of for no reason.  I just thought it no big deal, I see now it is important to let the church know I choose to not be associated with them anymore, and that they don't have a choice in the matter. It is up to me to decide with whom I associate not the other way around!

 

     Flat Lander just to let you know, you now have two new signatures on you petition, my wife and I. I have a brother who is gay and see no reason he should not be allowed to marry someone he loves. 

 

 Bless you.

 

This, Rudy, is the key.  Gay people are PEOPLE!  They are no different from straight people and they should not be treated any differently. 

IN THE TITLE, it says "ELIMINATES THE RIGHTS OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY".

Excuse me, but it says "RIGHTS" it does NOT say "PRIVILEDGES". So, this law would be unconstitutional as it DOES limit the "rights" of a certain group of people.

 

 

 

Currently people in California have the right to same-sex marriage.  Prop 8 would eliminate this right.  As has been discussed here, this wording was implemented by California Attorney General Jerry Brown, over the oppositon of Prop 8 supportes, and has caused poll numbers for opposition to Prop 8 to increase.

 

As for the financial effect, there would be a short term loss in revenue, specifically from gay couples from out of state coming to California to marry.  Given that only one other state allows gay marriage, the long term effect would be negligible.  California is already a rather liberal state and the passage of Prop 8, which will not happen and would be regrettable regardless, would not cause a mass exodus, even among gay couples.

Congrats Rudy and a big thank you to you and your wife.  No matter

what tips the scales, it takes courage to take a stand in what you

believe.  Welcome home..a step new freedom for you and for your

brother!  Hugs, Vickie