Wanderer:

I had to sleep on this overnight to make sure it was the right thing to post this, because I really don’t want to take a risk of getting my DH in hot water right now.   This information comes from Stake Bishopric Meeting (a meeting held once per month where the Stake Presidency counsels all of the bishops and their counselors), and I’m sure the content of those meetings are not meant to be shared unless instructed to do so.  For this reason, I’m not even asking DH’s permission, which might sound really bad, but it’s for his own protection. If the priesthood leaders who presume they preside over me ever somehow caught wind that I post on this site, it wouldn’t be difficult for them to find which one is me, I’m sure.  So let me make it clear that it’s my decision and my decision alone to pass this along. 

So with that said, as most of you probably know, my DH is the 1^st counselor in the bishopric.  Btw, he has asked to be released because he feels he needs to be spending his time with his family right now as our children and I make this difficult transition out of the church, but the bishop is dragging his feet, and we both agree that he is stalling because he believes that I’m going to come to my senses.  Anyway, he came home last night from Stake Bishopric Meeting in a TERRIBLE mood.  When I asked him what was wrong, he at first refused to tell me because he was afraid I would be too angry.  A little bit later he went up to bed obviously stewing, so I again asked him to please tell me what was wrong.  He started with how he had first attended Round Table where they discussed collecting for Friends of Scouting and doing the re-chartering—both of which my DH is in charge of, and NOT happy about for many reasons that I won’t get into.  So with that sour taste in his mouth, he then walks into SBM, only to have the topic of discussion be Proposition 8.  Apparently, a letter was sent down to the Stake President, signed by the 1^st Presidency, stating the church’s stance.  My DH didn’t get to actually read the letter, but copies were passed out to each bishop with instruction that if they hear of any member or their wards opposing the church’s position, they are to be reported to the Stake President immediately.  (The worst part for me is that our SP’s own brother whom he claims to love is gay.) The SP went on to state how there were people in our area who were collecting money to oppose the Proposition, and this was unacceptable.  Hmmm.  So apparently it’s okay for bishops to put collection boxes outside their offices and Stake Presidents to start web sites to collect donations to support Proposition 8, but those who oppose have no right to do the same?  My DH was sickened to his core.  Everything inside of him is screaming that this is wrong.  Not only is he opposed to Proposition 8 himself, but he expressed how he just cannot believe that the church can justify taking such an active stance in government—obviously it goes against even our own Articles of Faith.

I think he just lost his last bit of faith in the LDS Church.  He’s been pondering about whether or not to give the bishop a date that he needs to be released by, and he will now be doing that. 

So far, I have not written a letter or signed the petition to the First Presidency on the Signing For Something web site because of the fact that my DH was in the bishopric and there is enough spotlight on our family right now without me being invited to a disciplinary counsel.  I was already warned by my SP that if he finds me spreading my reasons for leaving he will not hesitate to excommunicate me, as his job first and foremost is to protect the church. Trust me, I'm not intimidated by his threat, but I'd rather not put my family through the drama.  As I've contemplated whether or not it was the right thing for me to remain silent or not, I've wondered if with all those signatures that they would even really take notice of mine.  Now that the SP has made it clear that he is on the lookout, I’m probably asking for it if I sign.  I won’t do it without first letting my DH know of my decision, but it’s looking like Signing For Something has just recruited one more signature. 

Agency

Mormon Doctrine

By McConkie

 Second Edition Pg 27

"Satan sought to destroy the Agency of Man (Moses 4:3). Two great agencies on earth pattern their courses in accordance with Lucifer's program of compulsion and seek to deny the inalienable right of agency to men."

"These are the church of the devil and communistic dictatorships, both of which prosper proportionately as they are able to withhold truth from their adherents and compel them through fear to conform to the religious and party lines."

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For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” - John 3:20, KJV

The Bright Light of Skeptical Scrutiny is the best disinfectant.

Each of us is a prisoner if we live in a world without wonder and curiosity, and we must be willing to explore the world of ideas if we want to be free. Marietta McCarty explaining the meaning of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.

WestBerkeleyFlats:

IN THE TITLE, it says "ELIMINATES THE RIGHTS OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY".

Excuse me, but it says "RIGHTS" it does NOT say "PRIVILEDGES". So, this law would be unconstitutional as it DOES limit the "rights" of a certain group of people.

 

 

 

Currently people in California have the right to same-sex marriage.  Prop 8 would eliminate this right.  As has been discussed here, this wording was implemented by California Attorney General Jerry Brown, over the oppositon of Prop 8 supportes, and has caused poll numbers for opposition to Prop 8 to increase.

 

As for the financial effect, there would be a short term loss in revenue, specifically from gay couples from out of state coming to California to marry.  Given that only one other state allows gay marriage, the long term effect would be negligible.  California is already a rather liberal state and the passage of Prop 8, which will not happen and would be regrettable regardless, would not cause a mass exodus, even among gay couples.

 In the pink...

O.k. I understand a little more now.

And I know that people make great sacrifices to obtain employment. I am just apalled at the sacrifices a few people are asked to make. I am also still of the mindset that there WILL be some who chose to leave the state of California so that they can live in an area that they are accepted and do not have to worry about a governmental agency treading more on their rights....

Though, I do agree that it won't be a mass exodus. There are too many people who "live in sin" (don't get me wrong... I've changed my veiws on this... and don't see it as a sin, but when talking TBM....), who just go on.

I still believe that it isn't my place to decide who should or shouldn't marry...just as it isn't my place to decide if a couple SHOULD or SHOULDN'T have children (a healthy, mentally and physically, couple). 

Wanderer (and others),

Someone on another thread brought up this idea, and I'm doing what I can to promotee it and facilitate it.

Would you be willing to go into the chapel or the RS room a little early on Sunday and stuff the hymnals with inserts directing people to go to the Signing for Something website?

Here is a two-to-a-page version of a poster, that you could print out and cut in half and would fit very nicely in hymnals.

http://signingforsomething.org/2smallposters.pdf

I think if people all across the country started pulling these out of their hymnals, that would be quite hilarious. 

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Flat Lander

Presiding Bishop
Moron Church of Latter-day Saints
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Rudy DC:

     Wanderer I want to sincerely thank you for your post. It struck a chord in me and I am sending my resignation in tomorrow.  I have been putting it of for no reason.  I just thought it no big deal, I see now it is important to let the church know I choose to not be associated with them anymore, and that they don't have a choice in the matter. It is up to me to decide with whom I associate not the other way around!

 

     Flat Lander just to let you know, you now have two new signatures on you petition, my wife and I. I have a brother who is gay and see no reason he should not be allowed to marry someone he loves. 

You're welcome.  I may not be brave enough to go before the media, but hopefully this will still help the cause. 

I just talked to my DH over dinner about wanting to add my signature.  Before I even finished my sentence, he told me that he did not mind at all.  So I will certainly be signing the petition as well.  I wanted to make a joke and ask him if he will be turning me in to my SP...but I can tell he is in no laughing mood about this. 

Flat Lander:

Wanderer (and others),

 

Someone on another thread brought up this idea, and I'm doing what I can to promotee it and facilitate it.

 

Would you be willing to go into the chapel or the RS room a little early on Sunday and stuff the hymnals with inserts directing people to go to the Signing for Something website?

 

Here is a two-to-a-page version of a poster, that you could print out and cut in half and would fit very nicely in hymnals.

http://signingforsomething.org/2smallposters.pdf

 

I think if people all across the country started pulling these out of their hymnals, that would be quite hilarious. 

I don't think I'm that brave--baby steps for me right now.  Besides I haven't been going to church, and I don't intend on returning. 

Wanderer:

Rudy DC:

     Wanderer I want to sincerely thank you for your post. It struck a chord in me and I am sending my resignation in tomorrow.  I have been putting it of for no reason.  I just thought it no big deal, I see now it is important to let the church know I choose to not be associated with them anymore, and that they don't have a choice in the matter. It is up to me to decide with whom I associate not the other way around!

 

     Flat Lander just to let you know, you now have two new signatures on you petition, my wife and I. I have a brother who is gay and see no reason he should not be allowed to marry someone he loves. 

You're welcome.  I may not be brave enough to go before the media, but hopefully this will still help the cause. 

 

I just talked to my DH over dinner about wanting to add my signature.  Before I even finished my sentence, he told me that he did not mind at all.  So I will certainly be signing the petition as well.  I wanted to make a joke and ask him if he will be turning me in to my SP...but I can tell he is in no laughing mood about this. 

 

 

 

 

 Kudos to you for being so patient and understanding with your husband.  It's easy, once the scales fall off your eyes, to forget that we were once in a similar position, and it is not an easy road to take to get to where we are now.  I feel bad for your husband; his life must be total Hell right now.  He'll get through it, but in the meantime he really needs the patience and understanding that you have for him.

Wanderer,

I would be more than happy to be your spokesman in front of the media if you feel that you cant or dont want to. You could give me all the info that you have, your thoughts and opinions and I would answer it all for you in front of the media.

I had a vision last night of Monson, the first presidency, Q of 12 and the 70's all with shovels and digging and digging a very wide and spacious hole that at one point they looked up and realized that it was so deep that they could not get out.....wonder what it all meant?

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The David Hume ‘Wreaking Ball’ can be an invaluable tool for tearing down beliefs and then building back up things that one can prove to be true.

Draconis:

Wanderer:

Rudy DC:

     Wanderer I want to sincerely thank you for your post. It struck a chord in me and I am sending my resignation in tomorrow.  I have been putting it of for no reason.  I just thought it no big deal, I see now it is important to let the church know I choose to not be associated with them anymore, and that they don't have a choice in the matter. It is up to me to decide with whom I associate not the other way around!

 

     Flat Lander just to let you know, you now have two new signatures on you petition, my wife and I. I have a brother who is gay and see no reason he should not be allowed to marry someone he loves. 

You're welcome.  I may not be brave enough to go before the media, but hopefully this will still help the cause. 

 

I just talked to my DH over dinner about wanting to add my signature.  Before I even finished my sentence, he told me that he did not mind at all.  So I will certainly be signing the petition as well.  I wanted to make a joke and ask him if he will be turning me in to my SP...but I can tell he is in no laughing mood about this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 Kudos to you for being so patient and understanding with your husband.  It's easy, once the scales fall off your eyes, to forget that we were once in a similar position, and it is not an easy road to take to get to where we are now.  I feel bad for your husband; his life must be total Hell right now.  He'll get through it, but in the meantime he really needs the patience and understanding that you have for him.

Well thank you Draconis for understanding the situation we are both in right now.  It does mean a lot.  I have many things I am learning and trying to work through right now about figuring out when it is good to stand up for something, and when it is best to have patience and understanding.  Just this morning, my DH told me that while he still chooses to believe for now, he does not agree with the church's stance on many things, and can not say what the future will hold or how he will feel given some time--pushing him does not serve in any way right now.  I am married to an amazing person, and we have a very strong relationship.  I consider this a very rare gift in my life--and I don't intend on flubbing it up.

Secret Combo:

Wanderer,

 

I would be more than happy to be your spokesman in front of the media if you feel that you cant or dont want to. You could give me all the info that you have, your thoughts and opinions and I would answer it all for you in front of the media.

 

I had a vision last night of Monson, the first presidency, Q of 12 and the 70's all with shovels and digging and digging a very wide and spacious hole that at one point they looked up and realized that it was so deep that they could not get out.....wonder what it all meant?

Great dream--I personally love dream analysis--very fascinating! 

Thank you very much for the offer.  I will keep it in mind. I plan on stating some of what is going on in my letter that I will post on Signing For Something.  And given the fact that I have played a part in some choosing to turn in their resignation letters, I have certainly defied my SP's threat--both the one he gave me in person and the one he passed on to the bishops.  For now I am choosing to keep a balance between my relationships and accepting whatever the outcome will be.   

Wanderer:

And given the fact that I have played a part in some choosing to turn in their resignation letters, I have certainly defied my SP's threat--both the one he gave me in person and the one he passed on to the bishops.  

Which is none of their business!

Wanderer:

Just this morning, my DH told me that while he still chooses to believe for now, he does not agree with the church's stance on many things, and can not say what the future will hold or how he will feel given some time--pushing him does not serve in any way right now.  

Wow. That's a lot of change right there! It takes time to get used to the idea that church leaders probably aren't acting ethically before you can approach the whole religion with similar criticism. Wow.

Eckhart Tolle states that once enlightenment begins, the process is irreversible.