I think that is a beautiful letter and I wouldn't change a thing. Let us know if you share it with your wife. You have done a wonderful job of expressing yourself, my friend. Wow.
Beautiful. What a great letter. Perhaps it would be handy to keep around in case you have difficulty finding the words in the moment or the conversation goes awry?
Sir Thomas, That is a very touching and dear letter. I wish so much that something like that could be read from the pulpit. I wish that the devout LDS could know that most of us who leave do not leave to embrace sin or because of personal offense, but out of our own deep need for intellectual integrity. I wish these things could happen.
I know it's unlikely. I know the way many of the believers would react and demonize those with such sincere and tender proclomations. Still, what you say has far more truth than any of the LDS sermons. Your love for your wife is abundant in your words and I can't imagine any woman who would not be completely bowled over by the purity of your expression.
I've only been on this board for two years but I HAVE seen some come out with their marriages together. I've seen the opposite too, but often they had many other deep problems that were only exacerbated by the religious differences.
I hope you do get to keep things together and that someday your wife will see the anguish that this has caused you and will respect your intellect and heart. Even if she chooses to continue as many do, I hope the love will stay strong.
I wrote the attached letter a few days before my mother passed away from cancer. She had a typical Mormon funeral, which included a showing from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir since she sang with them for 20 years. I wanted to communicate my own valid meaning and feelings regarding my mothers death, and explain to family members why I would not be attending the Mormon family prayer after the viewing, or the Mormon dedication of the grave, and why I would be leaving the funeral services near the end when the bishop and stake president stood up to preach the required Mormon dogma. I am at peace with my mother's passing, and I didn't let church leaders hijack my own meaning away from me.
Rational INTJ:
I wrote the attached letter a few days before my mother passed away from cancer. She had a typical Mormon funeral, which included a showing from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir since she sang with them for 20 years. I wanted to communicate my own valid meaning and feelings regarding my mothers death, and explain to family members why I would not be attending the Mormon family prayer after the viewing, or the Mormon dedication of the grave, and why I would be leaving the funeral services near the end when the bishop and stake president stood up to preach the required Mormon dogma. I am at peace with my mother's passing, and I didn't let church leaders hijack my own meaning away from me.
Rational INTJ - Welcome to PostMo
My condolences for your loss.
What a letter - Talk about standing up for yourself and what you believe in.
Rational INTJ:
I wrote the attached letter a few days before my mother passed away from cancer. She had a typical Mormon funeral, which included a showing from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir since she sang with them for 20 years. I wanted to communicate my own valid meaning and feelings regarding my mothers death, and explain to family members why I would not be attending the Mormon family prayer after the viewing, or the Mormon dedication of the grave, and why I would be leaving the funeral services near the end when the bishop and stake president stood up to preach the required Mormon dogma. I am at peace with my mother's passing, and I didn't let church leaders hijack my own meaning away from me.
Wow...that was painfully sobering, knowing that as I read it, it was vastly more than a theoretical construct (as it would be coming from me), but rather, the harsh reality of someone facing it. Very sober.
How long ago did your mother pass away? And did you, indeed, send that letter? How was it received?
Thankyou from the very depths of my dark heart for the beautiful and profound things you've collected and written. You describe the things I've felt in the anticipation of my own mothers death in perfect form. She's not yet gone and I find myself twisting in anticipation of having to sit through yet another self serving LDS sacrament meeting where her amazing life is but a footnote to the more selfish purpose of the Mormon agenda. I feel nothing but cheated and it's not even happened yet.
I have saved your amazing document and hope that when the time comes I can distribute it to those who will dominate her services and maybe soften their hearts about the value of allowing her life to be the theme of her own funeral. Considering that 99% of the people that will attend are already Mormon it seems like preaching to the choir. Why can't they just let it be about the person that died? She has given 77 years of blood sweat and tears to the church. Why not give her two hours back and let it be about her. What a rip off.
Your words are perfect. Thankyou again. Its my greatest hope that it will have some impact on those that hold the reins.
I too am sorry for your loss. No matter how we grow in different directions than our parents and loved ones, they're still our loved ones and the bond is deeper than the frail poisonous tentacles of religious indoctrination.
I'm the mother of a son and there isn't a day goes by where I don't think of him as the most amazing thing I've ever had a hand in. I suspect your mother felt similarly. If there's an afterlife I'm sure she's looking down on you and beaming that you've become such a gift to the world.
How long ago did your mother pass away? And did you, indeed, send that letter? How was it received?
My mother passed away a couple of days before Christmas last month. Before she passed, I sent my letter to my sisters, and to my wife who had been asked to speak at my mother's funeral. My letter was pretty well-received by my wife, and eventually well-received by my sister who kind of frieked out at first, which was understandable considering the intense emotions we were both experiencing. I have attached my follow-up letter to my sister after she frieked out about "My Mother's Funeral" letter I sent. After she calmed way down she sent me a very supportive letter which I valued and appreciated very much. Thank you sister!
Dahli-mama:
Thankyou from the very depths of my dark heart for the beautiful and profound things you've collected and written. You describe the things I've felt in the anticipation of my own mothers death in perfect form. She's not yet gone and I find myself twisting in anticipation of having to sit through yet another self serving LDS sacrament meeting where her amazing life is but a footnote to the more selfish purpose of the Mormon agenda. I feel nothing but cheated and it's not even happened yet.
I too am sorry for your loss. No matter how we grow in different directions than our parents and loved ones, they're still our loved ones and the bond is deeper than the frail poisonous tentacles of religious indoctrination.
I'm the mother of a son and there isn't a day goes by where I don't think of him as the most amazing thing I've ever had a hand in. I suspect your mother felt similarly. If there's an afterlife I'm sure she's looking down on you and beaming that you've become such a gift to the world.
Dahli-mama, thank you for your kind words and support. I do not know you, and yet your words touched my heart, mind, and soul. I hope that when you experience the loss of your mother, you will feel the needed unconditional love, support, and acceptance of those around you, and whom will allow you to experience and process your grief and loss in your own profound and significant ways. I have come to understand that these are they whom I recognize as among my my most valued friends and family.
Rest in peace mother! Your unique breath of life lives on not only in my DNA and in the effect of your nurturing, but also in the meaning and significance of many precious and enduring memories which have been liberated from and innoculated against the tentacles of dogmatic doctrines.
Again, Dear Rational INTJ, (I took that test but can't remember if I'm an EMPTYHEAD, or FLUFFY NOGGIN, I just know it started with an E and has a picture of Ben Franklin in the field. We're so much alike except I'm a woman and don't have gout and I've never done much that is remarkable or significant, and I only write naughty silly things instead of pithy quotables)
Anyway, thankyou for that response. I can only imagine the raw feelings you're still experiencing. The photo chilled me in a good way but a reminder of a reality I am loathe to face.
I read your incredibly fair and reasonable response to your sister. Her reactions are so perfectly predictable and exactly what I would expect if I were to share anything of my mind with my own family. IN a way, you've inspired me to keep my damn mouth shut for once. I am keenly aware of the futility of correspondence with my family. It aches to not share with them who I've become but I do know that this place and others have allowed me to blossom and reveal all my cards, especially the joker cards which I have in abundance.
Your respect for your sister is also abundant but I envy your position as a man and brother who somehow is more inherently justified in calling out the absurdity of the Mormon beliefs.
I am the 7th of eight, with five older brothers. All who are eternally convinced that I am a 13 yr. old girl and will remain so until I die and my grandbabies bury me. In interactions with them where the deck is stacked they prove their case and I am at a loss to reveal the more insightful and introspective self, but they wouldn't hear of it anyway.
In all my fondest dreams I would have a brother who saw me as a human being and whole person as you have treated your own sister. That would be too much to dream of. I admire and adore you already for what you've written.
I'm saving and printing out both your letters. They won't ever grace the door of my brothers, but they vindicate me, and in a way I consider you a soul sibling for saying what I wish so many men could say. Some of you guys almost seem human.
How long ago did your mother pass away? And did you, indeed, send that letter? How was it received?
My mother passed away a couple of days before Christmas last month. Before she passed, I sent my letter to my sisters, and to my wife who had been asked to speak at my mother's funeral. My letter was pretty well-received by my wife, and eventually well-received by my sister who kind of frieked out at first, which was understandable considering the intense emotions we were both experiencing. I have attached my follow-up letter to my sister after she frieked out about "My Mother's Funeral" letter I sent. After she calmed way down she sent me a very supportive letter which I valued and appreciated very much. Thank you sister!
Dahli-mama:
Thankyou from the very depths of my dark heart for the beautiful and profound things you've collected and written. You describe the things I've felt in the anticipation of my own mothers death in perfect form. She's not yet gone and I find myself twisting in anticipation of having to sit through yet another self serving LDS sacrament meeting where her amazing life is but a footnote to the more selfish purpose of the Mormon agenda. I feel nothing but cheated and it's not even happened yet.
I too am sorry for your loss. No matter how we grow in different directions than our parents and loved ones, they're still our loved ones and the bond is deeper than the frail poisonous tentacles of religious indoctrination.
I'm the mother of a son and there isn't a day goes by where I don't think of him as the most amazing thing I've ever had a hand in. I suspect your mother felt similarly. If there's an afterlife I'm sure she's looking down on you and beaming that you've become such a gift to the world.
Dahli-mama, thank you for your kind words and support. I do not know you, and yet your words touched my heart, mind, and soul. I hope that when you experience the loss of your mother, you will feel the needed unconditional love, support, and acceptance of those around you, and whom will allow you to experience and process your grief and loss in your own profound and significant ways. I have come to understand that these are they whom I recognize as among my my most valued friends and family.
Rest in peace mother! Your unique breath of life lives on not only in my DNA and in the effect of your nurturing, but also in the meaning and significance of many precious and enduring memories which have been liberated from and innoculated against the tentacles of dogmatic doctrines.
After reading your letter to your sister, I have to say that is a remarkable example of appropriate boundary setting. I've noticed as former Mormons that most of us, in the name of family relations, continue to allow our families to silence us. They must be respected, their beliefs are the right ones and so just shut up and quit picking fights with us.
It was a well written letter. I hope it brings you and your sister to a place of communication and equality.
I read both of your letters. I have five brothers (well actually only four still alive) and have never, ever had that kind of a heartful letter or conversation from any of them.
Your sister is one fortunate lady and your family is one fortunate family to have you.
This is the letter that I included with my husband's letter. We gave it to a few members of our family and friends. It was actually really good to write down my feelings. Reading all of your letters has been really great. Thanks for sharing, everyone!!!
(the "family issue" mentioned in the letter was my brother coming out that he's gay.. which obviously led to a lot of soul searching!)
I would like to add a littleto this letter about my personal decision to leave the LDS church.
As DH has said before, I grew up in the church and was blessed to have wonderfulparents who were excellent examples to me. I have always had the desire to do the right thing growing up, and thatincluded having a testimony of the gospel. I experienced many good experiences in the church, but could never seemto shake my many lingering doubts about many aspects of Mormon doctrine andhistory. Many of the “prophecies” andteachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other church leaders seemed tohave little to do with Christ’s actual teachings. I sought answers about issues that concernedme like polygamy, inequality of the sexes, race, exclusion of salvation tonon-Mormons, homosexuality, control of free thought, etc., but never felt goodabout the answers I received. In fact,the official position of the church often stood in stark contrast to my ownpersonal belief system. Also, theconduct of early church leaders, the origins of their doctrines andcircumstances surrounding those doctrines made me question theirtruthfulness. I often experienced guiltfor having these feelings, and tried to ignore them.
Whenit came time to go to college, I attended Ricks (now BYU Idaho). I met and fell in love with DH the summerbefore leaving for school- so I guess one of my objectives for going out west,finding a Mormon guy to date, was a little lost on me! DH left on his missionwhile I was there, it was a sacrifice we knew we were supposed to make, and Isupported him totally. I was veryuncomfortable in the midst of “Mormon culture” and a little disillusioned bythe amount of control the school/church desired to have over its studentbody. I was also shocked by the factthat that same control affected our classes. A few professors admitted to their class discussions being censored,many topics were off-limits. In manyways, Ricks felt less like an academic institution and more like a breedingplace for conformity. I had a strongdesire to fit in, but I came to realize just how different my viewpoints werefrom the mainstream church.
Idecided to transfer to the University of Southern Mississippi to be closer tofamily and far away from the snow. I wastired of being told how to live and think and became inactive for a briefperiod of time. However, I was unhappybeing rebellious- that just wasn’t “me.” I straightened up and came back to church with renewed conviction. I decided that the aspects of the gospel thatmade me uncomfortable were less important than the good things that itoffered. When Sam returned from hismission, we married in the temple and went on with our lives together. We moved to NC, were active in the church,had babies and basically did everything we were “supposed” to do.
As time went on, I would have occasionalepisodes when certain things about the gospel bothered me. I felt like Icouldn’t share my doubts with anyone, including my husband. I would read, study, fast, pray, try to bemore diligent, but I still could not shake the feeling that there were seriousproblems with the church. The more Isearched, the more I found troubling. Iattended the temple, each time hoping that it would be the time that I would“get it.” That never happened. I continued to live “as if” I had a strongtestimony, keeping my doubts to myself, and hoping that I could be atpeace. It was difficult at times knowingthat I had doubts that, if brought out into the open, would negatively affectmy marriage, friendships and whole way of life.
Last year, a family issue came up that made it impossiblefor me to ignore the differences between my values and the church’s. I went on another “read, study, fast, pray,try to be more diligent” binge. Istudied every source I could get my hands on, “official” LDS sources, booksfrom the Library on Mormonism and the web looking for answers to myquestions. In the past, I was alwayscareful to hide my quests from Sam because I didn’t want him to think that Iwasn’t faithful. I guess I was a bitmore obvious this time, which led to his confession that he had beenquestioning the gospel as well. It wasso wonderful to be able to open up to each other without fear. I am thankfulthat we are finally on the same page and that we share similarconvictions.
Wedo not take the decision to leave the church lightly. We have come to the conclusion that we nolonger want to be members after much consideration and soul searching. This has been one of the most difficultchoices I have ever had to make because I know that it might hurt and offendmany people who mean a lot to me. Wehave been blessed to be associated with so many good friends in the church. We have enjoyed our time with you and hopeour friendships can continue. I expect it to be a challenge, as far asparenting goes, to be able to replace the sense of community and opportunitiesfor service that come along with church membership. We feel that we are making the right decisionfor our family and hope that you can respect us for that.
Thanks, I felt like it was really important to keep the letter focused on my personal experiences without attacking anyone. Just explaining that it had been a long journey to get to that point.
I read your incredibly fair and reasonable response to your sister. Her reactions are so perfectly predictable and exactly what I would expect if I were to share anything of my mind with my own family. IN a way, you've inspired me to keep my damn mouth shut for once. I am keenly aware of the futility of correspondence with my family. It aches to not share with them who I've become but I do know that this place and others have allowed me to blossom and reveal all my cards, especially the joker cards which I have in abundance.
I am the 7th of eight, with five older brothers. All who are eternally convinced that I am a 13 yr. old girl and will remain so until I die and my grandbabies bury me. In interactions with them where the deck is stacked they prove their case and I am at a loss to reveal the more insightful and introspective self, but they wouldn't hear of it anyway.
I'm saving and printing out both your letters. They won't ever grace the door of my brothers, but they vindicate me, and in a way I consider you a soul sibling for saying what I wish so many men could say. Some of you guys almost seem human.
Dear Dahli-mama, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. I consider you a soul sibling as well for understanding what I have wanted to express. I am encouraged by what you wrote about this place and others allowing you to blossom and reveal all of your cards in a safe environment. I will look forward to enjoying your abundant joker cards, along with your uniquely insightful and introspective self, as I explore this site and participate.
NoLongerASheeple:
After reading your letter to your sister, I have to say that is a remarkable example of appropriate boundary setting. I've noticed as former Mormons that most of us, in the name of family relations, continue to allow our families to silence us. They must be respected, their beliefs are the right ones and so just shut up and quit picking fights with us.
It was a well written letter. I hope it brings you and your sister to a place of communication and equality.
Max
Max, thank you for your comments and encouragement. I have spent most of my life keeping quiet and not rocking the boat in order to avoid conflict. The pendulum has now swung pretty far in the opposite direction. I have used the term "boundary setting" with some of my family members and they seem to not like that term because it requires changes from what they have become accustomed to. With some of my family members, I have appreciated noticeable efforts in consideration for more equality and fairness, which feels really good.
TruthR:
Rational INTJ
I read both of your letters. I have five brothers (well actually only four still alive) and have never, ever had that kind of a heartful letter or conversation from any of them.
Your sister is one fortunate lady and your family is one fortunate family to have you.
IMO You have done your parents proud.
TruthR, thank you for taking the time to read my letters and for giving some positive feedback. It's much appreciated and needed.
Rational INTJ: LDS Church leaders do not own a patent on human “faith” or belief, or a sense of profound purpose and meaning, or actual truth and reality and knowledge. Truth cuts its own way for diverse and unique individuals. Unity and order does not have to mean clones and assimilation.
Absolutely an amazing letter. I especially loved the part above. Your letter has really touched me.
This is the letter that I included with my husband's letter. We gave it to a few members of our family and friends. It was actually really good to write down my feelings. Reading all of your letters has been really great. Thanks for sharing, everyone!!!
(the "family issue" mentioned in the letter was my brother coming out that he's gay.. which obviously led to a lot of soul searching!)
Elizard, thank YOU for sharing!
I believe that the "gay issue" for the Church is very much like the "blacks and the priesthood" issue. It's destabilizing for members, and slowly but surely the foundation begins to crumble.
I also believe strongly that it is important to write our thoughts down. Like you, it "feels good" to organize my thoughts by putting pen to paper, or rather, fingers to keyboard. Perhaps that's something that the Mormons got right, the importance of writing our personal histories. An honest accounting of our thoughts and actions is really our personal legacy.
I just thought of something. My history will reveal that I was a first generation LDS convert, and a first generation LDS apostate. Cool.
My first daughter got married last summer. Since I have resigned my church membership, LDS Church leaders kept me from attending my own daughter's wedding ceremony. I hold them accountable for this grave perniciousness and indecent incursion into natural family love bonds.
I sent the attached letter to my daughter right before she was subjected to the temple "Endowment" ritual the week before her marriage ceremony.
Yet another incredible letter!! I saved it to add to the others that I'll probably never give to my own family but in my imagination they are the perfect response. What a lucky girl your daughter is to have such an affectionate and concerned daddy. So many consider their role sort of periphereal and leave the heavy stuff to others.
I'd be interested in hearing how it went, what was her response?
I've been left out of both my kids weddings too and lived to tell about it and when my youngest gets married I know it's on the horizon. I try to not go there in my mind because my daughter and I are very close and I can only imagine horrific pain so it doesn't help me to work on the issue since there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid it. It's a debt that I can't pay so I just let it build up interest at 32% compounded daily. When I open that bill it will probably bankrupt my little brittle heart.
When my first daughter got married in the temple five years ago we were still on fairly good speaking terms because I was sending buttloads of money her way as she went through school at BYU-I after turning down a full ride scholarship to USU.
My TBM Sister convinced her that GOD wanted her to go to BYU-I and I was afraid the moment she got there she'd get some horny RM pestering her and keeping her from her education. She waited a whole month before getting engaged to a very nice ultra uber uber well connected TBM who is almost finished with his medical training. I think they're happy. She now considers me a fairly dangerous influence in her life and childrens lives so I'm sort of on the shit list. (note to self, no more Brigham YOung jokes!!!)
The first wedding was the hardest, like giving your first kidney without anesthesia. The second was a bit less raw. My third kidney might just kill me.
Anyway, when my brilliant son got engaged to the first girl he ever dated twice I was already a bit seasoned to the experience of being shut out. I knew the futility of expressing anything but a feigned "COngrats!!! and going along with things.
I was sure I'd given my kids sufficient sex ed stuff when they were younger but neglected to discuss birth control on a very detailed scale with my son. My daughters were hearing it from the time their zygote sprouted a spine, but my son not so much, or maybe he wasn't paying attention. Anyway, the night before they were to get married he mentioned that they were going to try the "Coitus Interruptus" method ( perfected by the Irish Catholics).
I snorted Dr. Pepper out my nose and then when I recovered I said, "Hmmm, you know what they call people who use that method of birth control? ....Parents." . My grandson was born a mere 8.5 months later. He's as brilliant and charming as my son.
I did write my son a primer for his future intimate relations with his wife, warning him to not be too much like his own father in the realms of intimacy and that if he read the whole thing and took it to heart he would be several steps ahead of others in that realm. If you are inclined you may read it here: (8th post down)
I'd be interested in hearing how it went, what was her response?
Before my daughter got married she and I had not spoken at all about why I was not participating in church meetings or activities any more. It was a topic that was avoided to keep the peace and avoid conflict. When I gave her my letter just before she experienced the endowment ritual, that was the first time I had communicated with her frankly about how I felt.
After I gave her my letter, she locked herself in her room for a long time, which included a lengthy conversation with her fiance. A few days later she approached me and expressed her love for me and then handed back all but the first page of my letter saying that she didn't want it. Part of me was happy to know that my adult daughter had just demonstrated that she could take what she wanted and found personally useful and scrap the rest. Another part of me was concerned that she had been conditioned to fear that any dis-confirming evidence could only be considered deception from evil sources and so was to be avoided and not even considered with critical thinking. I felt at peace about it because I had finally taken the opportunity to communicate my authentic thoughts and feelings with my daughter.
Dahli-mama:
I've been left out of both my kids weddings too and lived to tell about it and when my youngest gets married I know it's on the horizon. I try to not go there in my mind because my daughter and I are very close and I can only imagine horrific painso it doesn't help me to work on the issue since there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid it. It's a debt that I can't pay so I just let it build up interest at 32% compounded daily. When I open that bill it will probably bankrupt my little brittle heart.
When my first daughter got married in the temple five years ago we were still on fairly good speaking terms because I was sending buttloads of money her way as she went through school at BYU-I after turning down a full ride scholarship to USU.
My TBM Sister convinced her that GOD wanted her to go to BYU-I and I was afraid the moment she got there she'd get some horny RM pestering her and keeping her from her education. She waited a whole month before getting engaged to a very nice ultra uber uber well connected TBM who is almost finished with his medical training. I think they're happy. She now considers me a fairly dangerous influence in her life and childrens lives so I'm sort of on the shit list. (note to self, no more Brigham YOung jokes!!!)
The first wedding was the hardest, like giving your first kidney without anesthesia. The second was a bit less raw. My third kidney might just kill me.
I feel your pain Dahli-mama, and I think it is the prejudice attitude of obstinate dogma which must be held accountable for creating and perpetuating divisions and false dichotomies and false dilemmas within loving relationships. I have come to understand that it is church leaders who preach the toxic doctrines of witholding the choicest blessings of unconditional love and acceptance to only those whom are obedient to church leader counsel and dictates. I wonder, how is that "all they can do"! I think more equality and fairness is needed among inevitable diversity of adult thought. Dallin Oaks does not get to define so called "laws of love" for everyone as he dictates them with extreme prejudice and dogmatic false dichotomies.
Dahli-mama:
Anyway, when my brilliant son got engaged to the first girl he ever dated twice I was already a bit seasoned to the experience of being shut out. I knew the futility of expressing anything but a feigned "COngrats!!! and going along with things.
I was sure I'd given my kids sufficient sex ed stuff when they were younger but neglected to discuss birth control on a very detailed scale with my son. My daughters were hearing it from the time their zygote sprouted a spine, but my son not so much, or maybe he wasn't paying attention. Anyway, the night before they were to get married he mentioned that they were going to try the "Coitus Interruptus" method ( perfected by the Irish Catholics).
I snorted Dr. Pepper out my nose and then when I recovered I said, "Hmmm, you know what they call people who use that method of birth control? ....Parents." . My grandson was born a mere 8.5 months later. He's as brilliant and charming as my son.
I did write my son a primer for his future intimate relations with his wife, warning him to not be too much like his own father in the realms of intimacy and that if he read the whole thing and took it to heart he would be several steps ahead of others in that realm. If you are inclined you may read it here: (8th post down)
I read your brilliant letter to your son before he got married, and I have printed a copy to give to my four sons when they get married. Very insightful with precious gems and golden nuggets throughout. Thank you for sharing!
I wish someone had given me a letter like that right before I got married. What I got was a phone call from my home ward bishop explaining to me that I needed to make sure I put my garments back on shortly after sex so as to not fall asleep and spend the entire night in the nude while in the embrace of my mate. Since my fiance and I were abstaining from any premarital intimacy I had mentioned to her that I was looking forward to cuddling with her all night in the raw and falling asleep in each other's embrace.
Apparently, my wife felt some conditioned fear and anxiety when the bishop and stake president told her in her pre-temple interrogations and conditioning that she must wear her magical priesthood underwear garments at all times and look for opportunities to wear them rather than take them off. She spilled our private and intimate plans to her bishop, who then called my bishop, who then called me to give me the necessary rebuking/"counsel"/dictates regarding my intimate plans with my own future spouse and mate. If this isn't abusive cult behavior I don't know what is!
As a father I will do what I can with our children to encourage fair-minded critical thinking and a retention of personal domain and profound personal meaning and purpose.
I'd be interested in hearing how it went, what was her response?
Before my daughter got married she and I had not spoken at all about why I was not participating in church meetings or activities any more. It was a topic that was avoided to keep the peace and avoid conflict. When I gave her my letter just before she experienced the endowment ritual, that was the first time I had communicated with her frankly about how I felt.
After I gave her my letter, she locked herself in her room for a long time, which included a lengthy conversation with her fiance. A few days later she approached me and expressed her love for me and then handed back all but the first page of my letter saying that she didn't want it. Part of me was happy to know that my adult daughter had just demonstrated that she could take what she wanted and found personally useful and scrap the rest. Another part of me was concerned that she had been conditioned to fear that any dis-confirming evidence could only be considered deception from evil sources and so was to be avoided and not even considered with critical thinking. I felt at peace about it because I had finally taken the opportunity to communicate my authentic thoughts and feelings with my daughter.
Dahli-mama:
I've been left out of both my kids weddings too and lived to tell about it and when my youngest gets married I know it's on the horizon. I try to not go there in my mind because my daughter and I are very close and I can only imagine horrific painso it doesn't help me to work on the issue since there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid it. It's a debt that I can't pay so I just let it build up interest at 32% compounded daily. When I open that bill it will probably bankrupt my little brittle heart.
When my first daughter got married in the temple five years ago we were still on fairly good speaking terms because I was sending buttloads of money her way as she went through school at BYU-I after turning down a full ride scholarship to USU.
My TBM Sister convinced her that GOD wanted her to go to BYU-I and I was afraid the moment she got there she'd get some horny RM pestering her and keeping her from her education. She waited a whole month before getting engaged to a very nice ultra uber uber well connected TBM who is almost finished with his medical training. I think they're happy. She now considers me a fairly dangerous influence in her life and childrens lives so I'm sort of on the shit list. (note to self, no more Brigham YOung jokes!!!)
The first wedding was the hardest, like giving your first kidney without anesthesia. The second was a bit less raw. My third kidney might just kill me.
I feel your pain Dahli-mama, and I think it is the prejudice attitude of obstinate dogma which must be held accountable for creating and perpetuating divisions and false dichotomies and false dilemmas within loving relationships. I have come to understand that it is church leaders who preach the toxic doctrines of witholding the choicest blessings of unconditional love and acceptance to only those whom are obedient to church leader counsel and dictates. I wonder, how is that "all they can do"! I think more equality and fairness is needed among inevitable diversity of adult thought. Dallin Oaks does not get to define so called "laws of love" for everyone as he dictates them with extreme prejudice and dogmatic false dichotomies.
Dahli-mama:
Anyway, when my brilliant son got engaged to the first girl he ever dated twice I was already a bit seasoned to the experience of being shut out. I knew the futility of expressing anything but a feigned "COngrats!!! and going along with things.
I was sure I'd given my kids sufficient sex ed stuff when they were younger but neglected to discuss birth control on a very detailed scale with my son. My daughters were hearing it from the time their zygote sprouted a spine, but my son not so much, or maybe he wasn't paying attention. Anyway, the night before they were to get married he mentioned that they were going to try the "Coitus Interruptus" method ( perfected by the Irish Catholics).
I snorted Dr. Pepper out my nose and then when I recovered I said, "Hmmm, you know what they call people who use that method of birth control? ....Parents." . My grandson was born a mere 8.5 months later. He's as brilliant and charming as my son.
I did write my son a primer for his future intimate relations with his wife, warning him to not be too much like his own father in the realms of intimacy and that if he read the whole thing and took it to heart he would be several steps ahead of others in that realm. If you are inclined you may read it here: (8th post down)
I read your brilliant letter to your son before he got married, and I have printed a copy to give to my four sons when they get married. Very insightful with precious gems and golden nuggets throughout. Thank you for sharing!
I wish someone had given me a letter like that right before I got married. What I got was a phone call from my home ward bishop explaining to me that I needed to make sure I put my garments back on shortly after sex so as to not fall asleep and spend the entire night in the nude while in the embrace of my mate. Since my fiance and I were abstaining from any premarital intimacy I had mentioned to her that I was looking forward to cuddling with her all night in the raw and falling asleep in each other's embrace.
Apparently, my wife felt some conditioned fear and anxiety when the bishop and stake president told her in her pre-temple interrogations and conditioning that she must wear her magical priesthood underwear garments at all times and look for opportunities to wear them rather than take them off. She spilled our private and intimate plans to her bishop, who then called my bishop, who then called me to give me the necessary rebuking/"counsel"/dictates regarding my intimate plans with my own future spouse and mate. If this isn't abusive cult behavior I don't know what is!
As a father I will do what I can with our children to encourage fair-minded critical thinking and a retention of personal domain and profound personal meaning and purpose.
Hopefully folks on this forum don't mind a little public display of affection and recognition of a fellow traveler on a really tough trail. I'm in awe of your letter to your daughter and would have been blown away to have such a gift from my own father. I just cringed with sadness when you mentioned that your own daughter returned what I consider the most interesting part of your heartfelt letter. It would be like giving someone a painting that you'd worked weeks on and they just keep the frame and hand you back your gift. (Ok, this has almost happened to me with my oldest daughter who thinks my art is "Inappropriate"...it might be that naked woman stabbing a pig she didn't like, but fluffy bunnies and rosy temples in the mist aren't my style)
My youngest daughter called from Provo last week and in a moment I consider a huge victory and validation of the independence I hope I taught her she subtly mentioned that even at Utah Valley Univ. there were a lot of rigid "Churchy" rules and she didn't intend to follow every one of them. I about wet my panties with excitement. It's like a spark that gives me hope that she will someday find the rest of the church mandates to be pretty arbitrary and silly and not worthy of her obedience. Not that I want her to go all willy nilly disobeying and fornicating or anything, but just to let her instincts guide her instead of shutting down all thought and insight.
As to the garments during sex stuff. Crikey that is some bullshit!!! What arrogance to infuse themselves into the intimate moments of a young horny couple who should be reveling in their humanity instead of repressing it. My Hell, you were legally married. It's none of their business what folks do under the sheets.
My ex and I were given similar counsel but by then I was pregnant and socially obligated to get married to him and the advise was pretty much worthless at that point. When we'd been married a year we went through the temple and I had to wear those nasty skanky synthetic crawl up the crack saran wrap ugly nasty sacred underpants in the middle of July, in California. THat didn't last long. Those are the ugliest things ever devised. Total buzz kill. They look like the wrapping on a Thai Spring Roll and cling like it too. I've always been a sort of commando sleeper and figured no Mormon Authority was going to be in my bedroom at night so it was none of their business what I had against my skin. I come from a long line of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" folks so learned early to nod my head and say yes while I was doing otherwise.
I'm glad you enjoyed the letter. I'm sure a man of your age and talents doesn't need any sort of primer in such matters, but if others or those hoping to get lucky need some tips, it's there for the taking. It's my best stuff.
I wrote the attached "Call of Life" letter to my four sons. Growing up in the Mormon culture they were and are continuously bombarded with intense social and psychological pressure to feel duty bound about serving a two-year LDS mission.
My two oldest sons who are of age have both figured out how to prioritize and balance their own lives without succumbing to any imposed LDS Church leader coercion and manipulation techniques. I hope my younger generation of sons can do the same.
A letter that I might send to some of my closer friends in the church, former Young Women leaders and bishops, non-immediate family members, etc.
Dear ________,
I'm sending you this letter because something very big has happened in my life, and I'd like you to hear it from me before the reports and gossip start circling.
After much study, prayer, fasting, thought, and tribulation, I have been forced to come to the conclusion that the LDS church is not what it purports to be-- namely, the one true Gospel of Christ. Because of this, my integrity demands that I remove my name from the records of the Church.
I did not make this decision lightly or hastily. I did not choose to leave because I have broken any commandments, or because I intend to do so-- in that respect I am as temple-worthy as I was the day I received my Young Women's Medallion. I have not been offended by any person in the church-- on the contrary, I continue to have great love and respect for you and all my other friends in the church. My decision is purely the result of long study, prayer, and thought. I have not been "seduced by Satan"; I am still the same person you knew before. I hope that my decision will not hurt our relationship, which I value greatly.
This has not been an easy decision to make. It is often said in the church that people who leave are taking the easy way out, but I feel that this is not the case. Leaving has been extremely difficult for me. It has caused great strain on my relationships with family and friends, loss of respect by some, and great internal turmoil. The feelings I felt when I first had to consider that the church was not true, I could not possibly describe to you fully. I went through a period of depression and confusion; it is not easy to let go of a faith which one believed with one's whole heart.
If you have questions about what, specifically, I find to be irreconcilable in the doctrine and history of the church, I am more than willing to discuss it with you. I ask, though, that you not try to reconvert me, for such an attempt would be futile; it would only frustrate both of us. We are simply going to have to agree to disagree on this matter.
Again, I hope that we can continue to be friends. I know how much the church means to you, and I respect that. I ask only that you, in turn, respect my decision. I know that this news may come as a shock; I promise that I am the same piano_girl that you have always known, and I want to continue to know you.
...After much study, prayer, fasting, thought, and tribulation, I have been forced to come to the conclusion that the LDS church is not what it purports to be-- namely, the one true Gospel of Christ. Because of this, my integrity demands that I remove my name from the records of the Church.
I did not make this decision lightly or hastily. I did not choose to leave because I have broken any commandments, or because I intend to do so-- in that respect I am as temple-worthy as I was the day I received my Young Women's Medallion. I have not been offended by any person in the church-- on the contrary, I continue to have great love and respect for you and all my other friends in the church. My decision is purely the result of long study, prayer, and thought. I have not been "seduced by Satan"; I am still the same person you knew before. I hope that my decision will not hurt our relationship, which I value greatly.
This has not been an easy decision to make. It is often said in the church that people who leave are taking the easy way out, but I feel that this is not the case. Leaving has been extremely difficult for me. It has caused great strain on my relationships with family and friends, loss of respect by some, and great internal turmoil. The feelings I felt when I first had to consider that the church was not true, I could not possibly describe to you fully. I went through a period of depression and confusion; it is not easy to let go of a faith which one believed with one's whole heart.
If you have questions about what, specifically, I find to be irreconcilable in the doctrine and history of the church, I am more than willing to discuss it with you. I ask, though, that you not try to reconvert me, for such an attempt would be futile; it would only frustrate both of us. We are simply going to have to agree to disagree on this matter.
Again, I hope that we can continue to be friends. I know how much the church means to you, and I respect that. I ask only that you, in turn, respect my decision. I know that this news may come as a shock; I promise that I am the same piano_girl that you have always known, and I want to continue to know you.
With love,
P_G
Wow. That was incredibly cathartic.
Piano Girl, that is beautiful to read. I smiled--with you, I believe--with your closing "cathartic" comment. I highlighted some sections just as a bit of sadness at how much work is required for dissenting voices to not be immediately dismissed by the faithful. That is such a needless shame, I think.
I have read several of your posts since you first came here, Piano Girl. I will never meet you, but you are a dear and brave person. I admire your cautious and caring way of approaching this life-altering decision. I wish you the best and I look forward to reading more of your journey and posts here at PostMormon.
You don't need my approval, but I can't resist: good job!
As a post Mormon, I have noticed that my still subscribing spouse and family members feel a profound sense of what they describe as "loss," and they assume that I am no longer "trustworthy" to be able to fulfill my roles and responsibilities. They presume that their subscription and submission to LDS Church leaders is "living a higher law," and thus I have supposedly somehow chosen to live a so called "lesser law" and so supposedly disabled myself in my ability to take care of my own family and express and feel genuine love.
I have come to realize that equality and assertiveness in expressing my own enduring high standards and life aspirations among my subscribing family members must become an important priority and effort. I sent the attached letter to my wife and siblings as part of this effort.
Dad-gum-it RNTJ!! You did it again. You put into amazing poetic, scholarly, well thought out words what I could barely begin to describe without using a lot of cussing and clenching my fists and busting a vein in the top of my head in the process.
I admit I skimmed. It's a very long document and requires about three readings to really process the bulk of it. I save every one of your letters and will print them out for my own personal use and secretly fantasize about leaving these in the mailbox of my kids and family members someday.
They won't bother reading anything I write but you wrote it, so it must have some validity even though you come to amazingly parallel conclusions that I have (only I don't claim the advantage of actually studying anything, just some common sense and an inner voice that says the church is full of bullshit).
Your assessment of Eyrings article was spot on with mine. I made the mistake of reading that a year ago and it made my blood boil. I felt manipulated, villified, and deeply offended at the way he eviscerates those who choose for all sorts of reasons to stop agreeing to the abuse of the church. I'm sure my daughter intended for me to see this piece of codswallop because the Ensign with his article kept finding ittself open to that piece in the bathroom in the kitchen, in the baby's room and other places while I visited after the birth of one of my grandchildren.
Ironically, if I were to place your very amazing and well crafted letter in her headlights she'd be offended and reject the article and me for having the audacity to call out the very things that she and the church impose on us who leave.
So no, it won't see their mailbox anytime soon, but in my heart I know what you say has merit and it validates the things I've felt and seen. I'm not crazy (well, in this aspect.) I saw what I saw, heard what I heard, felt what I felt and knowing that you saw, heard, and felt those same things helps me immensly.
I concur 100%. We are robbed of our personal domain. We are the victims of the second hand smoke that the church wafts over our families, our families are leveraged and infiltrated and their love and acceptance of us is extorted in near criminal ways. We didn't imagine it. It still goes on.
After being shunned for asking questions for about 2 1/2 years, while still pretending I finally wrote my family a letter. The original was about four pages long and I replaced it with this.
---"Dear Friends and Family,
As your all aware I dedicated much of my time during the last two years too trying to better understand the gospel. During that search I learned the entire LDS Church was a crock of shit. Since you have all decided to turn your backs on me for no longer thinking like you I just wanted to tell you all you can blow me. For those who have passed on their beliefs to me in one way or another without knowing if they were true, screw you! When you have found the truth please feel free to call me and apologize. Until you've apologized please feel free to continue my shunning.
Best wishes and I will expect cards and gifts at Christmas
Last Saturday, I sent an e-mail to my Bishop explaining my disaffection
in a certain amount of detail. He did not respond until several days later
which gave DW and myself a couple days of angst. I must say that I am
genuinely pleased with his response. I was expecting MUCH worse.
My Letter to Him
Quote:
Dear Bishop XXXXXXX,
I understand that this will be a difficult e-mail for you to read.
I believe you are a good man who sincerely cares for the ward members.
I wanted to drop you a quick note of explanation in response to your
questions about me to DW on Sunday. She accurately described me as
doing great, and there is more to the story.
A while back, I had decided that I wanted to be a better mormon. I
thought that researching more about the life of Joseph Smith and the
early church would lead me to a greater understanding of the gospel,
and strengthen my testimony. Instead, my research lead me to
information regarding Joseph and the church that was troubling,
compelling, factual, faith-shattering, and ultimately life-altering. I
no longer believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, nor that the church
is true. I have not been offended, have not sinned, and do not have any
desire to start sinning. I intend to continue living a good life as a
follower of God and Christ. I have simply done the research, and
decided that the LDS church is not the truth, and therefore not the
path for me. This is not something that I have taken lightly or rushed
into. I have never taken anything more seriously.
Your reaction may be one of thinking that I am a lost sheep that
needs saving. But you need not think that of me. I do not feel lost. I
feel closer to God than I ever have. I have never felt this level of
spiritual strength. I truly feel great. You may also think that if only
I read more, or prayed harder that I would reconsider. I assure you
that my journey has been filled with daily reading of the scriptures
and more heartfelt prayer than I have ever offered. Or you may think
that exploring the church’s official apologetics for these historical
issues will re-convince me. I am extremely familiar with the church’s
official explanation for these issues, and they remain unconvincing.
You may also think that just meeting with me will change my mind. It
will not. There is nothing that anyone can do or say, no testimonies
born, that will make me believe in the church again. I bear no ill will
toward anyone in the ward or the church. I would just like to be left
alone to worship how, where, or what I may.
DW and our kids are aware of my disaffection in detail and we have
discussed the reasons for it. I intend to support my family if they
choose to continue their activity in the LDS church. I may even attend
church sometimes as part of that support. Out of respect for the
beliefs of others, I would of course never proselyte my point of view
to anyone in the ward on those occasions.
I do not want for my family to become a "project" in the ward with
lots of extra attention, calls or visits. We should be left alone and
not be made to feel uncomfortable. I do not wish for us to receive home
teachers. I do not want to receive visits/calls/e-mails from church
leaders, other ward members, or missionaries in an attempt to
reactivate me. At this time, I do not desire my name to be removed from
church membership records, but I ask to be released from my calling. I
am happy to give all my materials, and even train a chosen replacement
if you wish.
What I want most is for my family to be able to continue their
worship without ostracism or the converse of smothering them with extra
concern, focus or attention. Please let them be.
I thank you for your kind concern, and ask you to be discreet with this information.
RedKoolAidMonster
My Bishops' Response
Quote:
RedKoolAidMonster,
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your situation. I hope you
know that I was inquiring of DW about your whereabouts out of a genuine
concern for your well-being and the fact that we missed you. I
appreciate your candor and your efforts to try and minimize the impact
of your decisions on your family. Obviously I am disappointed by those
decisions, but that does not in anyway change the love and respect that
I have for you and your family, and I will do all I can to honor your
wishes. We will make a change with respect to responsibility for the
website and program next Sunday, and I will let you know about
transferring the materials. There is one point in your e-mail that I
would hope that you would reconsider, and that is to allow DW and
children to be assigned a home teacher if they continue their activity
in the Church. It is up to you whether you allow that home teacher to
visit with them in your home, but I would feel better if there was a
specific priesthood holder assigned and identified to both you and DW
to provide service to them in the event that they need and want
priesthood service. I will continue to keep you and your family in my
prayers, and if there is anything I can do for you or them please let
me know.
I should have posted here instead of starting a new thread! Anyway, thanks to you all who have responded to my letter to my dad.
I really appreciate the help.
It is heartbreaking reading these letters and just thinking how many tears and frustrations we have all spent over this church. We all know that if it was the true church, it would never create a situation where we have to write letters to our families at all. Thanks for sharing them, and Balla, your letter is awesome. I don't have a reason to send one like it, but if your friends and family have shunned your letter to them shows, I seriously admire your courage!
They never read the letters anyway, much less sympathize with the position. No matter how hard you try, your relationship is over. They couldn't give a shit about you, they only care about their cult.
Good letter above to Bishop but here is the dealio. Bishops are being told to handle things this way and most will follow the direction. It's more manipulation i.e., its not sincere. They have learned they can jack with you better and create more self doubt with a letter like this, usually they contain at least one place where the zealot just can't control the direction and says something stupid that gives them away. Don't let it screw with your head. Try to remember how you viewed people who were "less active" or leaving, put that mental picture in your head then go out and find real friends. Best wishes and good luck with the marriage. Remember she should respect you for following truth and light.
As a post Mormon, I have noticed that my still subscribing spouse and family members feel a profound sense of what they describe as "loss," and they assume that I am no longer "trustworthy" to be able to fulfill my roles and responsibilities. They presume that their subscription and submission to LDS Church leaders is "living a higher law," and thus I have supposedly somehow chosen to live a so called "lesser law" and so supposedly disabled myself in my ability to take care of my own family and express and feel genuine love.
I have come to realize that equality and assertiveness in expressing my own enduring high standards and life aspirations among my subscribing family members must become an important priority and effort. I sent the attached letter to my wife and siblings as part of this effort.
I have read all of the letters that you posted here on Postmo. They articulate many of the same feelings I have had and are well composed. Kudos to you!
How profoundly sad that your family members have deemed you "less than" worthy. I'm afraid that if I were to write letters explaining my present idealogy, my family would judge me in the same manner.
By not speaking about the topic, my family relationships remain intact. I have composed a letter that I am still debating about sending... If you were to go back in time - would you still have given these letters to your family? Was it worth it?
I'm afraid that if I were to write letters explaining my present idealogy, my family would judge me in the same manner.
By not speaking about the topic, my family relationships remain intact. I have composed a letter that I am still debating about sending... If you were to go back in time - would you still have given these letters to your family? Was it worth it?
If I were to go back in time, I would definitely give my same letters to my family members again, and I would do it sooner!
I think feeling genuinely and sincerely interconnected with family and family members is an important human need. I appreciate the diversity of cultures, and traditions which have evolved over time and are abundantly available to meet the needs of many different preferences. For me, I have come to understand that no one owns an exclusive patent or monopoly on valid spirituality or a sense of purpose, meaning, joy, and happiness. I strive to respect personal domain and I believe assertiveness is sometimes required to protect personal domain from often well-intentioned incursions in the name of love.
I think there are many methods and practices which achieve desirable and beneficial social values, and even by any means deemed supposedly necessary by some of those in power. For me, I think it is relevant to consider that some methods and practices seem more fair, equitable, just, and respectful of personal domain and unique breaths of life than others; and even though they may all claim to strive for similar particular desirable social emphasis. I tend to honor the methods and practices which achieve their noble ends of social group benefit while at the same time respecting and valuing individual and inter-group diversity with equality and fairness. I also tend to assertively defend personal domain, equality, and fairness from dogmatic doctrines, beliefs, methods, and practices which tend to demonize, alienate and not include those who don’t subscribe with an attitude of privilege, segregation, and a grandiose sense of importance which demands to be automatically obeyed without considering the validity of other diverse viewpoints, or else all manner of false dilemmas, psychological consequences, and withholding of parents’ “choicest blessings” are unleashed upon tender hearts and minds, with extreme prejudice.
I think it’s important for me to distinguish the difference between what it means to me to honor people and value my interconnected loving relationship with them, vs. what I may think and how I might feel about some of the cultural methods and practices which they may subscribe to. If some of the cultural methods and practices which they subscribe to robs my personal domain and excludes me in important family rituals and meaning through imposed social and spiritual caste systems, then I feel it is appropriate and necessary for me to hold the dogmatic cultural methods and practices accountable for its inequality and prejudice. This should not hold hostage the honor or love which I still feel for subscribing family members.
Mormon Church leader dogma dictates that honoring ones parents and family can only be achieved by forever submitting as a little child to Mormon Church leaders and their counsel and commands, in the name of their perception of their God. I feel it is reasonable, necessary, and justified for me to fill in the huge missing middle of this toxic false dilemma and differentiate between Mormon Church leader dogma and real persons with unique breaths of life whom are interconnected within loving relationships.
I do not need or want Mormon Church leaders attempting to supposedly “fill in the gaps” for me in my family roles. I think this kind of Mormon Church leader dogma conditions my spouse and children to feel that I am somehow deficient in providing for their needs. I suppose that if they are conditioned and brainwashed to believe the false dilemma that I could only meet their needs as a subscribing and participating Mormon Church leader priesthood holder, then they will feel a real sense of loss. I know that it was the Mormon Church leader dogma which created this false dilemma and sense of loss in the first place, and I hold them accountable for their own obstinate dogma which impairs loving relationships.
Thus, I do not feel content to remain silent about my valid opinions regarding Mormon Church leader claims regarding their dogma, and especially considering how triangulated it was manipulated by Mormon Church leaders within my closest loving family relationships.
So, if I could go back in time, I would definitely assertively declare my own valid meaning with my family members in my letters, and I would do it sooner rather than later!
Attached is a letter which elaborates my thoughts and feelings on this topic.
Ever since I heard of the Milgram experiment, (test where the
experimenter would tell the test subject to give increasing shocks to
another person to test people's reaction to authority, and most people
did it) I always thought that I would be one of the few people who
didn't push the button. I hoped that I would also stand up, say this was
wrong, and walk out.
When Prop 8 came to a vote, I found out what kind
of person I really was. To my credit I didn't push the button. Even
though the LDS church put a great deal of pressure on members to vote
yes on prop 8, I didn't. To my shame, I didn't vote no either. I didn't
push the button, but I didn't say it was wrong and walk out either.
So, I
ask for the forgiveness of my friends and family who are directly
affected by the outcome of prop 8. I also want to assure you that I have
realized the error of my ways. Because of prop 8 and other long
standing concerns that I have had, I am resigning from the LDS church.
I
would be happy to discuss all of the reasons and consequences of this
decision with anyone who is interested, however, in order to be
respectfully to my LDS family, I try not to bring this up unless you
initiate the conversation, except for in one detail. I know there are
others who are feeling pangs of guilt about following the party line.
When the issue of homosexual marriage comes up again in California, or
for the first time in your state, I urge and beg you to follow your own
conscience.
(p.s. I got kicked off of 1 million supporters of traditional marriage
for posting this there. I guess that's fair, but it does show a certain
censorship and aversion to honest discussion. That is why I posted it
here. Feel free to share your opinion here as well.)
I posted this on facebook and, of course, started a firestorm. It was for the most part "nice" but there was a lot of anger boiling just under the surface.
I find myself in the fortunate position to come from very understanding parents. While they are both from SE Idaho and grew up mormon, they were each their own respective black sheep, so they partied and drank and whatnot when they were first married. They have since calmed down and are the RS pres and HP group leader. I've basically told them that we've left the church, and they have been very supportive in stating that they will always be there for my wife and I and that they love us.
My wife, on the other hand, hails from a MUCH more conservative household. Her mother is emotionally unstable at the best of times (she needs to be medicated, but refuses out of a beleif that true members of the church don't take psychotropics), but lately has been almost intolerable. We left the church in phases over the last year and a half. Stopped tithing after Prop 8, and then gradually quit doing any of it. Luckily, we live 2000 miles away from her family, so her mom doesn't know the details. All she knows is that we aren't active and my wife doesn't always wear her garments. (Her little sister came out to stay with us for a week last year and, good little spy for mommy, reported back that my wife didn't redon the holy garment after going swimming one day.) Her mom, recently, has begun warning all of her siblings that we are apostates and not to be trusted. She told my wifes brother that he should reconsider naming us as the guardians of his baby in his will (he's in the service), because we won't "provide a wholesome environment." My wife's sisters are coming down to visit next week, and her mom has been preaching hellfire that they need to watch themselves around us because we will lead them into temptation.
I get so mad when I think about it. My wife catches guilt and lectures all the time and it just fills me with anger toward my mother in law. I am lost at how to help my wife deal with her mother, when my first instinct is to cut contact and just let her know that we're here when she decides to grow up.
Ever since I heard of the Milgram experiment, (test where the
experimenter would tell the test subject to give increasing shocks to
another person to test people's reaction to authority, and most people
did it) I always thought that I would be one of the few people who
didn't push the button. I hoped that I would also stand up, say this was
wrong, and walk out.
When Prop 8 came to a vote, I found out what kind
of person I really was. To my credit I didn't push the button. Even
though the LDS church put a great deal of pressure on members to vote
yes on prop 8, I didn't. To my shame, I didn't vote no either. I didn't
push the button, but I didn't say it was wrong and walk out either.
So, I
ask for the forgiveness of my friends and family who are directly
affected by the outcome of prop 8. I also want to assure you that I have
realized the error of my ways. Because of prop 8 and other long
standing concerns that I have had, I am resigning from the LDS church.
I
would be happy to discuss all of the reasons and consequences of this
decision with anyone who is interested, however, in order to be
respectfully to my LDS family, I try not to bring this up unless you
initiate the conversation, except for in one detail. I know there are
others who are feeling pangs of guilt about following the party line.
When the issue of homosexual marriage comes up again in California, or
for the first time in your state, I urge and beg you to follow your own
conscience.
(p.s. I got kicked off of 1 million supporters of traditional marriage
for posting this there. I guess that's fair, but it does show a certain
censorship and aversion to honest discussion. That is why I posted it
here. Feel free to share your opinion here as well.)
I posted this on facebook and, of course, started a firestorm. It was for the most part "nice" but there was a lot of anger boiling just under the surface.
Welcome hoberlander,
I totally hear you on the prop H8 issue.
I would actually like to thank TSCC for its participation in prop H8. Why?, you might ask. The answer is that it forced me to look very closely at the religion that I inherited. I am a straight person so you might wonder why I would even care about prop H8.
Well, you have to understand that I grew up with the priesthood ban on Blacks and the ERA issue in the 70's. I was always very uncomfortable with the church's stand on these issues. So, even though I have been ambivilant about church doctrine I did not really see that it harmed anyone and I could pretty much go along with it. We all know the temple is really weird, but the people are really great, so this sets up quite a lifelong dilema.
Prop H8 was just wrong and it rekindled many of the feelings I had growing up and I started searching on the internet and reading books. It did not take long to realize the fraud of TSCC and that I had been lied to. My faithful family for generations had been lied to.
So now I am on this journey with you and many others.
Welcome again, and I am interested in hearing more of your story.
This is the only information I have given to my family. I posted this on fb a month ago:
Well, I have another nephew getting married in the Mormon Temple in a few months. I have been keeping a secret from my extended family and some of my friends. Maybe it is time to come clean with them. I have been avoiding the inevitable backlash for many years. I no longer identify myself as a believing Mormon. I have not attended the Mormon church in many years, nor have I paid tithing, or attended the Mormon temple. My story is a difficult one to tell. It is a long one, it is painful to tell and one that I will not be telling anytime too soon. I left the Mormon church, not because of sin, not because I was offended, but because I do not believe it any more and because it is not a healthy place for women. I am not posting this to open a discussion on why I have left. I do not wish to be the fodder of rumors and evil speaking. My choice is my choice. I am tired of keeping this secret. I do not wish to miss another marriage with no explanation as to why I am not there. I am not an apostate, an anti-, I am just a non-believer. I refuse to stand outside the temple. I believe the Mormon churches refusal to allow minor children, non Mormons, and disaffected family members, such as myself to feel less than loved and accepted is the reason I have joined a group called 'The Temple Wedding Petition'. I am the same person who loves my family, loves others and is kind and compassionate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs
I would love to participate! My first letter for Request for name removal from records was probably too benign and was ignored. I did send it Certified/Return Receipt and did specifiy that I was firm in my decision. This was done in February 2010. When I joined post mormon, I found some very useful sample letters and designed my own resignation letter that was a lot stronger. I was going to make sure the bishop did not start excommunication process just to show his power. My belief is that it is just a piece of paper, however, I did not want the LDS Church to force me to their will. Freedom of Religion. I am willing to share these letters to show progression of strength in dealing with CHQ and Bishops.
My condolences for your loss.
Cool.
Well I stepped out there, posted a youtube video of my experience of Mormonism and it was reported as spam.
