Please respond and tell us a little about yourselves....how long you were/have been a member, what you'd like to gain from this board, etc, etc. Don't be shy! It's all of you that make up this community!
Please respond and tell us a little about yourselves....how long you were/have been a member, what you'd like to gain from this board, etc, etc. Don't be shy! It's all of you that make up this community!
Hi my name is puff , i have been on this board about a year , as my name suggests , i have transformed from spiritual mormonism to even more spiritual puffism , alltho puffism isn,t to good for my health , its not actually as destructive as mormonism was .
my reason for leaving the church, after years of swallowing bullshit i finaly got enough courage to tell them to shove it , the last year has been very interesting as i have made new friends and now actually go out on the weekends and enjoy myself , i am trying to catch up on all the living i have missed and feel sorry i left it as late as i did , i am keen on studying evolution philosophy and history
I was TBM from Arizona. I was so thoroughly deluded that I left a wonderful girl to go on a mission to the S of Brazil in the mid 60's. (Fortunately she was still there when I returned.) When I could never shake the feeling that I really wasn't sure my beliefs were correct, inspite of fervent prayer and fasting, I concluded that either: Moroni's promise was empty, or that I was a seriously defective and unworthy person. I went through the motions but found myself avoiding situations where I might be obligated to bear testimony, District meetings, conferences, cottage meetings etc. When I returned, fearing to do otherwise, I married the girl who waited for me in the temple, but didn't attend church much after that. I did help out some in the scouting program as I felt that was safe enough. (I forgot that the position also had responsibilities in the Priest's Quorum.) When the Stake President asked me to be in the Bishopric, I finally had to confide that I had serious doubts about the church and that I God had never seen fit to bless me with a testimony. I couldn't bring myself to serve in that position and mislead people further.
It took many more years to really see that the church version of history is grossly mistated. So pervasive is church indoctrination that, only recently, have I become completely comfortable in rejecting any possibility of the church being what it claims to be.
Now I am embarrassed to admit that I could have ever been so completely taken in by a con-man that lived nearly 200 years ago. And that the urban legends that surround a man that lived 2000 years ago are so widely accepted by people as factual.
With a formal invitation from Free Thinker, I'll give a little history...
I grew up in the heart of Mormonism - Morgan County, UT - which is, quite literally over 85% LDS (was closer to 95% LDS when I was growing up). With the exception of an older brother who is "lost to the world" due more to behavior than belief (he likes to smoke, have sex, and ride motorcycles far more than go to church), the rest of my family is TBM. In fact, my father was just released from his calling as bishop after the standard 5 years of service (my brother-in-law, who lives two doors down from him, is now in the bishopric in that ward). I come from a family of 9 kids - 6 boys and 3 girls. Five of the boys served LDS missions (all Spanish speaking) - the oldest one I mentioned above is the exception. Two of the girls served, though one came home early due to illness (and love sickness). I served a mission in Central America - 1996-1998.
I was a TBM before my mission, though I was also kind of a "deep thinker" and often wondered about life outside of the mountainous enclave that is Morgan, UT. My parents, both BYU grads, so wanted me to go to BYU (since I had the grades) that they were actually willing to pay for it, even though they wouldn't pay for any of my siblings' educations. But I wasn't interested - I had a 4 year scholarship to the UofU and wanted to go there for other reasons (I was a ballet dancer and was considering med school).
I put my college education on hold for 2 years for the mission and came home convinced that there was nothing as important in life as religion. As a result, I changed my focus in college to Psychology, hoping to gain a better understanding of the psychology of religion (I gained a little better understanding). Why I didn't pursue a career in CES, I'm still not sure. I think I just wanted an objective understanding of religion - I wanted to know what science thought of it. I finished my BA pretty quickly then took a year off to work in a residential treatment center for adolescents (which cured me of my interest in abnormal psychology). I then switched to sociology and left Utah for the mid-West (where I am now) and graduate school in sociology. I married a fellow ballet dancer just before finishing my undergrad education and we both went to grad school together - she was studying genetics while I started in on sociology.
We quickly adjusted to life outside Utah and made lots of friends with the other young couples in our ward. But it only took a year of graduate school, living outside Utah and perusing the internet before my "testimony" of Mormonism crumbled. My trip out was pretty typical, I think. I first became something of an apologist because I knew about the problems but wanted to defend the religion. Over time, my apologia started to crumble, so I took increasingly liberal and mythical positions, saying things like, "I can wait to understand that" or "that could not have been meant literally." It was just a matter of time before it would all crumble. Ironically, it wasn't due to reading so called "anti-Mormon" literature (which I've read extensively since leaving) but rather to learning to think critically and reading some of the sociological literature on Mormonism (e.g., Mauss, Shepherd and Shepherd, Beurger; and some of the historical literature - Quinn). Eventually I realized the BofM was BS, and when that happened, it all crumbled. My wife, luckily, was a nominal Mormon to begin with, so when I broke the news to her, she was fine with leaving. With my faith in Mormonism gone, I quickly applied that same critical thinking to other religions and realized there was nothing there for me. I now consider myself a rationalist, freethinker, and skeptic (i.e., atheist, but I don't like defining myself in relation to a deity in which I don't believe).
We've been out for several years now (going on 5 I think) and are much the happier for it. Our parents aren't and it continues to cause problems with our TBM families, but so it goes. I think a great example of how this often plays out is a book by Altemeyer and Hunsberger called "Amazing Conversions." While I disagree with their theoretical argument (that socialization led me out), I think a lot of their other insights are great.
Anyway, once I left I started a blog of sorts where I post critical thoughts about religion and Mormonism: http://sonsofperdition.blogspot.com
I am close to finishing my PhD in the sociology of religion and maintain an interest in Mormonism, though my interests are becoming more general. I'm particularly interested in secular people living in religious environments (like the U.S.) and what leads people to leave religious participation. I'm fairly well-read on the sociological literature related to religion. If you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line. I'll do my best to answer them.
As for the anonymity, it's primarily for my profession. I don't see the point in alienating people who I might want to interview in the future. So, I try to maintain a little anonymity, even though it really wouldn't be that hard to find out who I am if you look. I also don't want my students to know how critical I am of religion when I teach them about religion; I try to keep my biases out of the discussion. So, while I can't help myself when it comes to being critical about religion, I try to keep my thoughts anonymous for professional reasons.
With a formal invitation from Jeff, I'll give a little history...
I put my college education on hold for 2 years for the mission and came home convinced that there was nothing as important in life as religion. As a result, I changed my focus in college to Psychology, hoping to gain a better understanding of the psychology of religion (I gained a little better understanding).
I am close to finishing my PhD in the sociology of religion and maintain an interest in Mormonism, though my interests are becoming more general. I'm particularly interested in secular people living in religious environments (like the U.S.) and what leads people to leave religious participation. I'm fairly well-read on the sociological literature related to religion. If you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line. I'll do my best to answer them.
As for the anonymity, it's primarily for my profession. I don't see the point in alienating people who I might want to interview in the future.
Exmoron,
Your introduction was very interesting to me for a number of reasons, one of which is because I'm toying with a novel about a guy who gets a masters in psychology then switches and ends up with a Ph.D. in sociology. I didn't even know if there was an area of study that was specifically called the sociology of religion. Prolly could have found out easily enough with an internet search, but as I say, at this point I'm toying with this novel. It's intended to be a Da Vinci Code-like novel that is based on some research I did when I was exiting Mormonism and eventually theism, which does a bit of a number on Judeo Christianity. Whereas the Da Vinci Code goes back to the time of Jesus and reveals some controversial things about the guy, my story digs up information that goes back to about 1,000 BC and reveals some little known things about the very basis of Judaism and Christianity that are the main reasons I left religion behind.
A couple of summers ago I presented some of my research to the Utah chapter of the American Atheists and to the Humanists of Utah (both groups in the Salt Lake area), which was fairly well received. The leaders of the atheist organization liked what I had presented so much that they recommended me as a speaker at their national convention in San Diego that year. That didn't pan out but it was an honor to be recommended (by the way, mayor Rock Anderson was the speaker at their following meeting and they didn't recommend him to their national organization ). I'm sure it wasn't my ability as a speaker that won them over--I felt like I was bombing for the first 15 minutes of the first presentation--it seems that it was my research that went over so well. It's some pretty eye opening stuff based on some hard to refute, self verifiable facts that, like I said, puts a pretty good dent in Judeo-Christianity...or at least it sure seems to. And it brings the reader (hopefully) to a new and refreshing way of understanding life, without relgion as a crutch.
Anyhoo, Exmoron, if you're willing I'd like to maybe pick your brain from time to time so I have my protagonist, Jack, do what someone with a degree in the sociology of religion (and with a background in psychology) would do. For grins I've included a rough draft of the prologue to the novel just so you see that Jack is this character that happens to parallel you somewhat. What I coincidence!
The Second-Shoe Syndrome
Prologue
It’s been said that “life is like waking in the middle of a two shoe drop but the second shoe never drops.” When it was said was on a quiet October morning, the day that Jacques LeGrand DuPont the First died. Jack never forgot his Grandpa Jacques, nor did he forget what he told him that day but he had to mature a few years beyond freckles and little league before it started to mean something to him.
It was about the time when his interests changed from baseball to basketball, and from the tomboy next door to the middle school cheerleader two blocks over when Jack decided that the first shoe must be birth. “It’s like I can’t remember it but I know it happened because I’m alive now.” It was a profound insight to an adolescent.
It took a few more years and at least one broken heart before he could express it more eloquently: “We can’t remember our birth but the fact that we’re alive now implies it, like waking after a shoe has dropped and now lies on the floor.”
More years went by and it was in the waning months of his glory days as Crackerjack Dupont, the six-foot-two basketball star for the University of Utah, when Jack began to get an inkling of what Jacques might have meant by the second shoe. Jack made it through most of U of U on basketball scholarships and eventually graduated with a Masters in psychology but life was turning out to be quite different from what he had imagined when he was younger. He was sure that by the time he was 30 Crackerjack Dupont would be household name but now at age 44 he teaches sociology at the University of Michigan where he got his Ph.D. Not bad, but not what he had expected.
It was while working on his doctoral dissertation at the University of Michigan when Jack finally felt like he understood what Jacques meant by the second shoe. In fact, in honor of Jacques, Jack titled his dissertation The Second-Shoe Syndrome and determined that everyone has it. While developing his thesis he interviewed well over 150 people with widely varying worldviews. Some of them said they were atheists but most claimed to be theists and there were many who said they fell somewhere inbetween. Jack had a list of 32 questions he would ask each of them. They were carefully designed questions, all important to his study, but one question in particular was of most interest to Jack—question number 17.
Answers to question 17 were mostly predictable. Theists he talked with had more or less made up an answer to the question (or more often they had adopted the made-up answers of other more noteable theists) which they clinged to with what they called faith. Faith, it seemed to Jack, was just another word for wishful thinking. Atheists, on the other hand, generally held the dismal view that there was no answer to the question because life was little more than a meaningless anomaly of nature. Then at some point, about three quarters of the way through the interviews, Jack began to notice a pattern—something common among all of them. It wasn't something common in what they did or what they said. It was, in fact, something common in what they didn't say, something he could sense from deep within them that they were holding back, something that spoke the truth, something that revealed what they really believed about question 17. To Jack it was an awakening—an epiphany. It was the moment in Jack's life when he felt like he could finally see through Jacques' eyes on the day that he had died. It was the moment when Jack realized that regardless of who they are and what they say they believe, everyone, everywhere, goes through life with an ever-present niggling in the back of their head reminding them that life’s most important question is still without a real answer. Yes, Jack was sure that Jacques was right—the second shoe never drops.
But funny thing about second shoes. They drop when you least expect it.
For what it's worth, there it is, good, bad or ugly. It might seem a little dry for an opening but I'm trying to hook the reader hard with the last couple of paragraphs that I think just about everyone can relate to from one angle or another (at least hook them hard enough to turn the page to Chapter One). In the first chapter the plot hits the ground running and things get rolling in a mystery, suspense, adventure style.
Exmoron, your real name wouldn't happen to be Jack would it? I've bookmarked your blog. I plan to follow it.
Unfortunately, my real name isn't "Jack." But I do have some French ancestry through my mother's line ;)
I'd be happy to read pieces of the book as you move along to proof them for sociological thinking. I've done a fair amount of fiction writing myself over the years and occasionally still work on movie scripts with a friend (when I can steal a moment or two from working on my dissertation).
Unfortunately, my real name isn't "Jack." But I do have some French ancestry through my mother's line ;)
I'd be happy to read pieces of the book as you move along to proof them for sociological thinking. I've done a fair amount of fiction writing myself over the years and occasionally still work on movie scripts with a friend (when I can steal a moment or two from working on my dissertation).
Now I am embarrassed to admit that I could have ever been so completely taken in by a con-man that lived nearly 200 years ago. And that the urban legends that surround a man that lived 2000 years ago are so widely accepted by people as factual.
Welcome to the community Hayuz! I think we've all been embarrassed to admit what we once believed.
I was TBM from Arizona. I was so thoroughly deluded that I left a wonderful girl to go on a mission to the S of Brazil in the mid 60's. (Fortunately she was still there when I returned.) When I could never shake the feeling that I really wasn't sure my beliefs were correct, inspite of fervent prayer and fasting, I concluded that either: Moroni's promise was empty, or that I was a seriously defective and unworthy person. I went through the motions but found myself avoiding situations where I might be obligated to bear testimony, District meetings, conferences, cottage meetings etc. When I returned, fearing to do otherwise, I married the girl who waited for me in the temple, but didn't attend church much after that. I did help out some in the scouting program as I felt that was safe enough. (I forgot that the position also had responsibilities in the Priest's Quorum.) When the Stake President asked me to be in the Bishopric, I finally had to confide that I had serious doubts about the church and that I God had never seen fit to bless me with a testimony. I couldn't bring myself to serve in that position and mislead people further.
It took many more years to really see that the church version of history is grossly mistated. So pervasive is church indoctrination that, only recently, have I become completely comfortable in rejecting any possibility of the church being what it claims to be.
Now I am embarrassed to admit that I could have ever been so completely taken in by a con-man that lived nearly 200 years ago. And that the urban legends that surround a man that lived 2000 years ago are so widely accepted by people as factual.
Welcome Hayuz! Wow, I didn't see your post last night when I was zipping through things. I was wondering if you got much grief from the Stake President when you confided your lack of testimony? It seems that sometimes folks get "coersed" into a leadership position with promises that one will "gain a testimony."
Hey Exmo or should I say Dr. Exmo, your story sounds a lot like my own. I am also in grad school currently trying to figure out what to do the dissertation on. I have been toying with the idea of studying computer mediated communication and the impact of the internet on religious belief. I am also in the midwest. You wouldn't happen to be studying at IUPUI would you? I know they have a great program in religious studies. It would be great to get together and hang out some time.
Unfortunately, no, I'm not at IUPUI, but I'm only a couple hours away from Indianapolis. If you wanted to get together, maybe we could arrange something. It would certainly be fun to hang out with a fellow post-mormon. I rarely get that opportunity...
Drop me a line if you're interested and we can try to arrange something: exmoron -at- gmail.com.
Thanks Hayuz and Exmo. Both interesting stories. It is always interesting to me to read these exit stories. They often have common elements but always are unique in their own way. Perhaps we could bend Tolstoy a little and state it like this.
ALL HAPPY MORMONS ARE HAPPY IN THE SAME WAY .
ALL POSTMORMONS ARE UNIQELY UNHAPPY WITH MORMONISM.
And Jeff you have been holding out on us. Pretty good peice of writing there buddy. If it is published I will be buying it. Can't wait to see what question 17 is.
And Jeff you have been holding out on us. Pretty good peice of writing there buddy. If it is published I will be buying it. Can't wait to see what question 17 is.
Thanks Free Thinker! Yep, you'll have to wait and see what question 17 is.
No, Mamajama, the Pres Gates didn't get heavy. I think he could see, by my posture and demeanor, that I was no longer susceptible to the crap. He did try to shame me into taking the position by suggesting that it was my responsability to help lighten the load of The Bishop, who I considered a good friend (at least he was making a great effort to socialize me back into the church).
This Bishop worked in the Prosecutors office and this put me in a tight spot when I was called for Jury duty. I was asked by counsel for the defense (under oath) if I knew anyone personally in the prosecutors office. When I answered "yes" they inquired as to the details. I said that my wife's Bishop was an assistant prosecutor.
They wanted to know why it was "my wife's Bishop" and not my Bishop. I told them that I was not active. They wanted to know why. I had to admit, under oath, that I had never been favored with a spiritual confirmation of the church's divinity. Answering this question truthfully was distressing to me because, at that time, (for many reasons) I was trying to have it both ways. I figured that one side or the other would disqualify me, but, to my surprise, they selected me. I suppose the prosecution felt they could control me (hope springs eternal) and the defense felt they couldn't.
They wanted to know why it was "my wife's Bishop" and not my Bishop. I told them that I was not active. They wanted to know why.
.....
Wow, I find this to be a huge invasion of privacy. I know they are allowed to ask potential jurors personal questions, but "why don't you go to church" ???
Hello all. I have been aware of this organization for some time due to the anouncements made in the local paper. I have been reading up on the current threads and looked at a bunch of the old discussions. It has already done my heart good to know that I am not alone. THANKYOU. I know this thread is several days old but I will use it for a quick intro anyway.
I freed myself from "the church" almost 12 years ago. At the time, I was in my second year at Ricks College. I have never looked back. Now I live in Cache Valley, a single female and homeowner in her 30's with education and a career. I know some of you can relate to the issues that surround just that statement.
Currently, I work in a very small office. My boss is in a stake presidency and two other primary supervisors are high counselors. I am constantly surrounded by that classic mind numbing ignorance. Lately, it is driving me insane. Mormon politics in the office has been much on my mind lately. I am relieved to have access to this discussion forum and hope to participate often.
cynical:I am relieved to have access to this discussion forum and hope to participate often.
Welcome to the forum cynical! I hope you check out the rest of the website too. There's some great material under the Our Library section that I think you'll enjoy.
By the way, I'm the guy who puts the ads in the paper that you mentioned. You should consider joining us one of these Sunday evenings at Ruby Tuesdays in Logan on 1400 North. We meet every Sunday (except on some holidays) at 6:30 pm.
It IS a relief, isn't it, to find out that you're not alone!
Hi everyone, my name is Marci. I just found you yesterday. I really like this site - it's very clear and clean, and I like the billboard and the "not trying to hurt anyone" attitude about it. I am definitely an ex-Mormon, but I am also trying to practice forgiveness.
I was born into Mormonism - in SLC, to "Jack-Mormon" parents. They were born Mormon also, but didn't attend church as adults and drank (became alcoholics) and smoked (of course, you almost had to in SLC to "show them" you weren't one of them). The consequences were high, my Dad suffered and died from emphysema and my Mom ultimately got Alzheimer's (or the doctor said alcohol related dementia).
I remember arguing with or questioning my Sunday School teacher around the age of 10 when I was memorizing the 13 Articles of Faith and being told about Cain's punishment being that all his relatives would have black skin. I also remember in 4th grade my Mormon teacher asking all the students to go home and ask our parents if it was ok if we prayed in class. I was the only one whose parents said no and had to stay in at recess and explain. My parents said it was against the law - that there was separation between church and state (school) and that we weren't supposed to pray to God in school. She said we wouldn't be praying to God. But you could see her undergarments under her clothes and I am sure she would have been praying the Mormon way.
My "goody goody" rich Mormon aunt and uncle (he was a Dr.) who had 4 children helped our family when financial hard times hit us. During one summer they took my sister and I to California to stay with them for a couple of weeks at their home. They went out at night and left us kids alone. Their oldest son molested me while I was asleep and I woke up screaming. When they returned home I told them what happened and they said they would speak to him in the morning. The next day they told me it didn't happen.
My parents wouldn't even allow themselves to have funerals because they were afraid "some Mormon" (probably my Aunt) would stand up there and talk about them, so I missed out on having the chance to hear from people who loved them come and tell me while I was grieving.
I finally sent in my letter of resignation on Dec. 26, 2006, Priority Mail, Delivery Confirmation. Just like clockwork, on December 31, 2006, two female missionaries showed up at my door! The Mormon church had absolutely no idea where I was until I sent them that letter! I was very nice to the girls, actually felt sorry for them. Now I am just waiting to see if the church is going to try to excommunicate me or if they will accept my resignation.
Anyway, this is very long already - just a little bit about who I am.
I finally sent in my letter of resignation on Dec. 26, 2006, Priority Mail, Delivery Confirmation. Just like clockwork, on December 31, 2006, two female missionaries showed up at my door! The Mormon church had absolutely no idea where I was until I sent them that letter! I was very nice to the girls, actually felt sorry for them. Now I am just waiting to see if the church is going to try to excommunicate me or if they will accept my resignation.
Anyway, this is very long already - just a little bit about who I am.
Thanks for listening and for this great site.
Marci in CA
Marcy
The church tried to offer me a visit from my bishop when I sent my letter. I faxed back to them immediately a notice that any further contact would be met with legal action and to act on my request immediately. It is my understanding that it would be illegal for the church to take disciplinary action against you after recieving your letter of resignation. Your resignation is effectve the moment they receive your letter. Also I think it is important to insist on a letter from them confirming the action has been taken.
Thanks for sharing your story with us... please feel welcomed to post any time.
Congrats on your resignation. Based on reading the experiences of many others, here and at RfM, you needn't worry about whether the church will accept your resignation - they have no choice. They may drag their feet about it and insist that it go thru a local bishop, but they can't ex you once you've sent a resignation letter.
Hi Marci/flyingshoes - welcome aboard! Glad to have you. Welcome to a world where you get to think for yourself and live your own life. It's wonderful out here... wonderful I say, wonderful!
Hi Marci. Welcome and congrats on your resignation. I have been thinking about doing it for a long time. The only thing stopping me now is the political fallout that would most likely occur. It has the potential to derail my entire career. I can't help but think that there should be some major ramifications for a breech of confidentiality in the case of a resignation. At this point, I have to expect that my family, friends and worst of all, my boss would find out right away.
Hi Marci. Welcome and congrats on your resignation. I have been thinking about doing it for a long time. The only thing stopping me now is the political fallout that would most likely occur. It has the potential to derail my entire career. I can't help but think that there should be some major ramifications for a breech of confidentiality in the case of a resignation. At this point, I have to expect that my family, friends and worst of all, my boss would find out right away.
I admire your courage.
Yikes cynical, have you had to keep your beliefs (or lack therof) a secret? Now that's got to be tough. I haven't had my records removed yet because.....well.....uh.....I don't really know.....maybe deep down I'm still afraid of Hell, Fire and Damnation. Actually, I've had my letter written since last July (and corresponding letters to the Bishop and Stake Pres.), I just haven't been able to bring myself to put them in the mailbox yet......Man! talk about weak, weak weak!! ::bangs head against the wall:: Too bad because their SUCH good letters too.
I do not actively keep what I really think a secret but I definately don't advertise. I am just quiet. If someone asked me what I believed in, I would not hesitate to tell them. In my experience, active mormons don't want to know about what others believe. They would never dream in a million years of asking me what I believed in since I left the church. Even my parents, who know that I do not want anything to do with their church ever again, have never once expressed curiosity about what my current beliefs or feelings may be. On the occasions I have tried to express some of my thoughts about what I beleive, I have been carefully ignored. At work, it seems to be okay that I am inactive because then others can harbor the belief that one day I will see the light and return to the fold. I know that I am accepted at work, (and was probably originally hired) based soley on the fact that I graduated from Ricks College. If I actually did the resignation thing, they would no longer be able to endulge in their little fantasy of the prodigal son. But they probably still would be too afraid to ask what I really think. It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths denial can be taken.
Cynical and Flyingshoes, I'm happy you have chosen to participate in our community. I too think it is a good place to air your issues. I have visited many other forums and found this forum to be "fair and balanced" as they say on Fox News. This forum is, of course, is the only true forum, and Jeff is a true webmaster guy.
You both have challenges that I do not face in the mountains of NC, (mormon? what's a mormon?) but I do have family that has remained in TSCC. I hope we will learn from one another as we go forward. Thanks again for joining us here.
Just saying hello, I am an exmo from the Manchester area of the UK. Been posting over at Rfm for a few years now, as brit-exmo, and been out of church for about 4 years.
So I pretty much grew up in the church, did young mens, seminary, mission (England Bristol 93-95) and temple marriage. My wife is still TBM, but we are OK with that. She see's that I am happier outside church and so is cool with that. Have just had our 1st child and so some interesting times ahead regards her church attendance. Hopefully I can balance the indoctrination.
What made me leave? I think the Education Fund was the catalyst for me. For years the Church had said don't get into debt, and there it was setting itself up as a loan company!! So that along with the shelved doubts I had over the years (Hoffman Affair, personal experience with dodgy leaders) just forced me to dig deeper. So I found latter-daylampoon, and then RfM and the rest is history.
What made me leave? I think the Education Fund was the catalyst for me. For years the Church had said don't get into debt, and there it was setting itself up as a loan company!!
Welcome! Always glad to see a new member! I think you are the first to site the Education Fund as the reason why they left. The thing that bothered me about that program was that the church did not make it available to all members but only those in third world countries. Don't members in the US deserve some financial help in achieving their career goals? To me this demonstrated that this was not so much about helping church members but helping poor members to have higher paying jobs that would allow them to pay more tithing to the church.
I joined this board in June of 2006 but I haven't visited it much until lately. I was born a Mormon in northern Cache County, Utah. My ancestors joined the church and came to Cache Valley in the 1800's. My dad was somewhat of a roller coaster member but my mother was a strict TBM. I took after my mother and was actively engaged in Mormonism for 50 years. When I returned from my mission I thought there was enough evidence to essentially "prove" the church true. Things like the discovery of chiasmus fascinated me. My family had been involved in the Indian Placement program and I had listened to SWK talk about the skin of the Lamanites turning white and delightsome. I participated as a stake missionary, in a bishopric and extensively in the YM program. I enjoyed most of my participation and never had reason to question or doubt. Then about 5 years ago I started to experience what I would call "church overload." I started to struggle with a particular church calling and I saw others struggle with work, callings in the church and depression. I finally started thinking deeply about the purpose of life and the relationship between God and man. About that time a relative introduced the idea to me that the church might not be true. I began an extensive examination of the church and my beliefs. Within a few months it had all unraveled and I was on my way out. My wife and children are TBM and it has created some serious stress on my marital relationship. We have passed the crises but communication has deteriorated and may never return to what it was.
I enjoy reading books and conversing with individuals who are in the same situation as I. Conversations with believers are often shallow and uninspiring because there are many things they refuse to discuss or they speak in programmed phrases rather than reveal their true feelings.
It is truly a solitary journey.
I work in agriculture.
I have 6 children. Three are temple married and one is about to return from a mission. Two are still at home.
Wow, Sage. Your story sounds hauntingly familiar to me. I also grew up in Cache Valley. I also have six true believing children and a true believing husband. I served twice as RS president and in many other church callings. I was also bothered by worrisome doubts and once I allowed myself to consider the possibility that the church may not be true, it unraveled pretty fast. It just didn't make sense anymore and I could not "make" myself believe. It seemed empty, irrational, and frankly, very intolerant. I can truly empathize with the family difficulties. I am passionate about my family and to be so divided on something so important is really, really painful.
It truly is a journey that is taken completely alone. Especially when it's all you've ever known and all your closest connections are still deeply involved. We were watching the last episode of Lord of the Rings last night and Frodo said something that really affected me: "Once you take that journey you can never go back. Some hurts just go too deep." I feel that way sometimes now. I feel like a stranger in my family and my community. The hurts go pretty deep.
Brit-exmo and Sage
As you've probably already seen, the world opens up a lot once you take that step outside. What you've done takes a whole lot of courage and strength of character, which I imagine, many of the people closest to you probably can't see or appreciate. But there are a whole lot of people here on PostMormon.org that can truly respect and admire you and celebrate with you on your journey! Welcome aboard!
Welcome Sage! When I read stories like your I wonder where the church is going to find the leaders it needs to keep going. Hopefully we can help make your journey less solitary. Does your wife continue to pay a full tithe on your income?
I live in the mountains outside of Denver. I was raised a second class Mormon in upstate NY. My parents were converts, thus the second class status. Growing up, all I wanted to do was to go to BYU, marry a returned missionary of pioneer stock, be a "real" Mormon in Utah, and live happily ever after. Well, that is what I did, except for the happily ever after part, they kind of left that out. They also left out that just because somebody is a member that they might not be a good person. Wow, what an epiphany!
Sorry for the sarcasm, I'll bet you understand though.
What I am looking for is two-fold. First, this is so refreshing to find "others". I would like to be able to discuss things that nobody else would understand. In the process, I'm sure it also validates our feelings and helps reinforce our sanity.
Secondly, I have been divorced and away from the church for 13 years. I would like to find people in my area to meet with, and possibly find an exmoron, I mean exmormon to date. I really am not that sarcastic or bitter, I just have a warped sense of humor which I enjoy very much; I hope someone else will too.
I consider myself a deep thinker and would like to bounce ideas off the same. Even when I was a member, I preferred to study deeper subjects. I found the fringe elements, ei Hugh Nibley etc. the most interesting. The church seemed to like to keep folks on a milky diet though where you are just concerned with the surface. I would definitely like to discuss the link with Free Masonry. I have some theories of my own about that.
Anyway, hope I wasn't too rambling. There is a lifetime of "stuff" that has been sitting dormant and I am a little overwhelmed with the prospect of someone to actually vent to.
What I am looking for is two-fold. First, this is so refreshing to find "others". I would like to be able to discuss things that nobody else would understand. In the process, I'm sure it also validates our feelings and helps reinforce our sanity.
Secondly, I have been divorced and away from the church for 13 years. I would like to find people in my area to meet with, and possibly find an exmoron, I mean exmormon to date. I really am not that sarcastic or bitter, I just have a warped sense of humor which I enjoy very much; I hope someone else will too.
Yvonne
Hey, mountaingirl! Welcome to PostMo!
I think we can help you out on issue number 1. This is a great place to air out the gunk in the Mormon attic. You know, flush out the bats, sweep away the cobwebs, stare in amazement at the underwear you once wore...that sort of thing. By all means, toss out your theory on the Mormon/Mason linkage!
On the second one...well, all I can do is wish you happy hunting! But I am as certain as I'm an apostate that there are more folks in the Denver area that are formerly Mormons than you would ever have imagined...
Thanks for the welcome. I found the phrase "garment wedgie" hillarious.
My Mormon/Mason theory is king of long and involved, so I will try the short version.
First, what got me on this particular subject is that when I left the church it was basically because I had two abusive temple marraiges and I knew that if I ever got out of the second one that there was no way I was going to live the lie a third time. Though I am not perfect, I was a great wife and mother and nothing I did caused me to be divorced twice. I did not feel it was fair that I either had to get married again or be alone, much less face being single in the church. We all know how fun that is. At that time I thought the church was true, but I just couldn't do this anymore and keep my sanity, so I left and just didn't think about much. I had been as devout as you could be and had held about every position there is. I just didn't want to deal with analyzing things, I just wanted be healthy and happy and see what kind of lifestyle I was happiest with.
Well, about 4 years went by and I saw an educational program on secret societies including free masonry. I remembered that growing up in the church I heard whispers of something about Joseph Smith being a free mason, "but we don't talk about that", people said. As this TV show was on I was in the other room listening and I was hearing the temple rites being recited, verbatum. I quickly ran to the TV and sure enough that was what I was hearing. These were supposedly the rites that Masons practiced! I was reeling with disbelief at first and then a quiet acceptance overcame me that it really was all a lie. Well, this got me interested in Masonry, so I did some research.
Basically, I believe that Joe just got pissed off that Masonry was totally shut down in this country. At the time, the masons had become a very powerful political group, holding most offices. This spurred a creation of the anti-mason group. They shut down the masonic temples and pretty much banned masonry in the area. I think Joseph Smith's life revolved around this group and he wasn't about to give it up so he morphed it from a mens society into a religion.
Feedbac please,
Mountaingirl
). I'm sure it wasn't my ability as a speaker that won them over--I felt like I was bombing for the first 15 minutes of the first presentation--it seems that it was my research that went over so well. It's some pretty eye opening stuff based on some hard to refute, self verifiable facts that, like I said, puts a pretty good dent in Judeo-Christianity...or at least it sure seems to. And it brings the reader (hopefully) to a new and refreshing way of understanding life, without relgion as a crutch.
I've bookmarked your blog. I plan to follow it. 
Well I stepped out there, posted a youtube video of my experience of Mormonism and it was reported as spam.
