Did anyone just see Holland's talk?  Like the one he just gave like 20 minutes ago?  Holy Cow the dude went totally berzerk.  He said that the book of mormon must be true because there is NO WAY that Hyrum and Joseph would have gone to carthage (which he said they both KNEW that they were going to die there) and still maintained the book was true.  They would not have testified (in JS case) in the jail of the book truthfullness.  That Hyrum would never have comforted JS during this sore trial by reading from a ficticious book.. and on and on...

 

I mean people the dude went nuts on the pulpit.  He was totally animated with his hands.  Crazy facial expressions....Raised his voice......I have never seen anything like that ever.  Anyone else seen this and can add to it? 

 

 

Holland is usually so mellow, too.  Maybe he's aware he's spreading lies and is overcompensating?  He's an intelligent man; perhaps the cogdis is finally causing him to lose his sh1t?

 

That might have been worth seeing, if only for the laughs.

 

hartlyn

Yeah, I saw it.  Absolutely amazing.  Ya think the Quorum of 15 is a bit peeved with all the losses?  Actually, it's nice to see some life in a speaker.

 

I was very surprised to hear him say the names of Ethan Smith and Solomon Spaulding.  I wonder if those have ever been uttered over the pulpit before.

White Rabbit:

Yeah, I saw it.  Absolutely amazing.  Ya think the Quorum of 15 is a bit peeved with all the losses?  Actually, it's nice to see some life in a speaker.

 

I was very surprised to hear him say the names of Ethan Smith and Solomon Spaulding.  I wonder if those have ever been uttered over the pulpit before.

 

It was like he was pissed and disgusted and really frustrated.  For him to act that way and to refer to ethan smith and spalding to me is a huge retreat on the 15s part.  I thought he was going to throw hyrums original book of mormon from carthage at the audience....and be like DAMNIT ITS TRUE CAUSE I SAY ITS TRUE!!!

I was surprised to hear what he said about people "who wish to exit the church" will have to "crawl around, over, or under" the book of mormon because it is something that even us apostates can't deny is true. Apparently he doesn't realize how stupid this sounds - I guess the glass windows, horses and chariots, flocks, iron, steel, cows, oxen, goats, swine, metal swords, etc. are all supposed to be a testimony of how true it is? Oh, and don't forget the stupid reformed egyptian, a mystery language that nobody has ever found.

 

I guess we know about the cultures, religions, geography, and languages of the Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayas, Incas, Zapotecs, Olmecs, etc., but we can't find the society of millions of people who had massive wars, huge cities, very distinctive geography and metalurgy, etc.  If the lamanites and nephites existed their existence would have left a huge impact, and BoM archaeologists would have SOMETHING to point to, rather than relying on the stupid chiasmus idea. 

 

He really did seem to come unglued. This just lit a fire under me to review all the ways the BoM is false. 

The facts prove the BOM, JS, and the Restoration to be a work of fiction.  He just sounds desperate.  Like a married man being caught with his pants down with another woman and he pleads with his wife that he has never cheated on her. 

Ok...I don't know the guys name but he just finished. He was saying that the ease of beleiving and the willingness to believe will be easier by doing what you are told, going to church, paying tithing...Yea, immerse yourself deeper into the brainwashing machine and things always get easier.

I watched that talk with my wife. I was in the other room, but when I heard yelling, I had to check it out.

 

A few things that should be pointed out to old Jeff:

 

1. Raising your voice does not make your right.
2. The fact that many people believe something does not actually make that thing true. (Example: Tupac is dead. Really.)
3. Name calling makes you seem desparate.
4. Joseph Smith could not have saved his life in Carthage by denying the Book of Mormon. It is a very dramatic premise -- "Deny your testimony or die!" -- however, it does not reflect what actually happened."
5. If theBook of Mormon is so important, why do we ignore the parts that contradict current church practices? (For example, Moroni 8:22-23 which say that baptisms for the dead are a "mockery before God.")
6. There are 'alternate' accounts of how the Book of Mormon came to be which are at least as compelling as the official LDS account.

 

I have lived in the margins of the Church for a long time now -- not believing but seeing no reason to leave an organization that many of my friends and family belong to. I don't wear garments or pay tithing, but I participate in the service  activities and I think home teaching is a nice concept.

 

The hard-line, "you're-either-with-us-or-you're-against us" stance that I'm noticing in this conference is just going to drive people like me out. Maybe that's okay with the leadership of the church. Maybe they're trying to clean house prior to the second coming or something. But this new tough stance seems very risky. If they push me...I will leave.

 

J Hume:

I watched that talk with my wife. I was in the other room, but when I heard yelling, I had to check it out.

 

A few things that should be pointed out to old Jeff:

1. Raising your voice does not make your right.
2. The fact that many people believe something does not actually make that thing true. (Example: Tupac is dead. Really.)
3. Name calling makes you seem desparate.
4. Joseph Smith could not have saved his life in Carthage by denying the Book of Mormon. It is a very dramatic premise -- "Deny your testimony or die!" -- however, it does not reflect what actually happened."
5. If theBook of Mormon is so important, why do we ignore the parts that contradict current church practices? (For example, Moroni 8:22-23 which say that baptisms for the dead are a "mockery before God.")
6. There are 'alternate' accounts of how the Book of Mormon came to be which are at least as compelling as the official LDS account.

I have lived in the margins of the Church for a long time now -- not believing but seeing no reason to leave an organization that many of my friends and family belong to. I don't wear garments or pay tithing, but I participate in the service  activities and I think home teaching is a nice concept.

 

The hard-line, "you're-either-with-us-or-you're-against us" stance that I'm noticing in this conference is just going to drive people like me out. Maybe that's okay with the leadership of the church. Maybe they're trying to clean house prior to the second coming or something. But this new tough stance seems very risky. If they push me...I will leave.

 

This is what is getting me.  I am just about ready to send in a resignation letter!

 

Bringitdown:

I was surprised to hear what he said about people "who wish to exit the church" will have to "crawl around, over, or under" the book of mormon because it is something that even us apostates can't deny is true. Apparently he doesn't realize how stupid this sounds - I guess the glass windows, horses and chariots, flocks, iron, steel, cows, oxen, goats, swine, metal swords, etc. are all supposed to be a testimony of how true it is? Oh, and don't forget the stupid reformed egyptian, a mystery language that nobody has ever found.

 

I guess we know about the cultures, religions, geography, and languages of the Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayas, Incas, Zapotecs, Olmecs, etc., but we can't find the society of millions of people who had massive wars, huge cities, very distinctive geography and metalurgy, etc.  If the lamanites and nephites existed their existence would have left a huge impact, and BoM archaeologists would have SOMETHING to point to, rather than relying on the stupid chiasmus idea. 

 

He really did seem to come unglued. This just lit a fire under me to review all the ways the BoM is false. 

 

If you do send me that list!  I like when you said "the stupid reformed egyptian, a mystery language that nobody has ever found.." 

 

If they are going to act like this from the pulpit, well, they are going to look really bad....monson is up right now.....he is being good cop right now, super nice soft talk....

OMG he was sure worked up in his talk!  I just finished watching it. 

 

First off, I couldn't help but feeling like I was listening to an over zelous 17 year old soon-to-be missionary.  He just had this teenager vibe about him.  He doesn't seem very mentally mature.  It's like he's stuck in a teenage mindframe.

 

Also, This entire conference has been about people leaving the Church.  If this isn't a testament to me that the Church is falling apart, I don't know what is.  I know feel even more confident in my decision to leave after watching this.  He didn't make me feel guilty.  The conference was so overly focused on the ones who are leaving and have left that it validated to me that I made the right decision.

How come this quote:

 

""In this greatest hour of need, I ask you, would these man blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation, on a book they had fictitiously fabricated? Never mind their families would be widowed. Never mind that legions will die. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death, these two men would enter the presence of their eternal judge, quoting from a book, that if not the word of God, would have branded them as charlatans in heaven. They would not do that"

 

Reminds me so much of Derek Zoolander?:

 

"Do you understand that the world does not revolve around you and your do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way?"

President Monson's Conference Notepad:

 

1. Refill Holland's Prozac

2. Warm milk

3. Pepsi

4. Mention the widows

5. Include a triplet and reference the author/poet. I don't really read much of their writing, but it sure makes me look smart.

6. Re-order Netflicks rated R movies before going home. I want to see Grand Torino again, that was a good one.

TexasChick:

How come this quote:

 

""In this greatest hour of need, I ask you, would these man blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation, on a book they had fictitiously fabricated? Never mind their families would be widowed. Never mind that legions will die. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death, these two men would enter the presence of their eternal judge, quoting from a book, that if not the word of God, would have branded them as charlatans in heaven. They would not do that"

 

Reminds me so much of Derek Zoolander?:

 

"Do you understand that the world does not revolve around you and your do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way?"

 

I would kill to see Holland pull Blue Steel at the end of a talk!

TexasChick:

How come this quote:

 

""In this greatest hour of need, I ask you, would these man blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation, on a book they had fictitiously fabricated? Never mind their families would be widowed. Never mind that legions will die. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death, these two men would enter the presence of their eternal judge, quoting from a book, that if not the word of God, would have branded them as charlatans in heaven. They would not do that"

 

 By this logic, David Koresh is a prophet too.

Zim:

TexasChick:

How come this quote:

 

""In this greatest hour of need, I ask you, would these man blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation, on a book they had fictitiously fabricated? Never mind their families would be widowed. Never mind that legions will die. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death, these two men would enter the presence of their eternal judge, quoting from a book, that if not the word of God, would have branded them as charlatans in heaven. They would not do that"

 

 By this logic, David Koresh is a prophet too.

.....and Jim Jones, and probably all the other cult leaders that carried their twisted, narcissistic performances out to the very end.  

 

Well, finally a General Conference prediction has come true.  Those New Order Mormons must be in the know.

I thought there would be a thread about this talk as my brother's facebook status says: "Jeffrey R. Holland was powerful." I'm so sorry for my family being manipulated by emotional stupidity!

When it comes to avoiding information, why is the responsibility on the "apostate"? Why don't the TBMs have to "crawl over" the DNA evidence? Why don't the believers have to crawl around the nearly 4,000 changes to the book? Or the fact that the "promise" of Moroni's doesn't hold water?

 

Oh wait... the mental gymnastics keeps that from happening. I forgot. Instead of crawling, they cartwheel, flip and twirl past these things. I remember being there. It was a real challenge trying to make it all fit. The truth may not leave me with feelings of being special or tell me that I'm going to have eternal rewards, but the more I know, the better I feel. I no longer have to dedicate an entire section of my brain to the mental struggle.

The church has two tactics for evidence against Joseph Smith and the BoM:

 

1. Nuh-UH!
2. La-la-la-la-la! I'm not listening!

Carter:
I thought there would be a thread about this talk as my brother's facebook status says: "Jeffrey R. Holland was powerful." I'm so sorry for my family being manipulated by emotional stupidity!

 

Hehe. I had a friend whose status was "Jeffrey R. Holland is a stud."

 

There is so much peer pressure to say how wonderful conference was. I remember trying to stay awake long enough to say, "I loved ______'s talk about ______." Ugghhh...

 

Conference is much more interesting now, viewing it from the position of someone who has studied mind control and church history. And viewing it as the indoctrination session that it is. 

Back when I was struggling to believe in Mormonism (cuz to do otherwise meant family drama & being shunned by friends and neighbors), I really never read much of the Book of Mormon.

 

It never really meant much to me.  It was boring, obtuse, an obvious plagiarism of the King James Bible, and full of fantastic stories that were just as difficult to believe as the truthfulness/non-truthfulness of polygamy, the Celestial Kingdom, and baptism for the dead.

 

Really, it was just another brick in the wall of mormonism.  Believe in the BofM, and kill off a little bit more of your soul.

 

The Book of Mormon is just a little piece of the LDS mind-f&*k.  I can no more believe in the "truth" of the Book of Mormon than I can believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that Protestants go to the Terrestrial (or is it the Telestial?) Kingdom, and that Heavenly Father lives on Kolob.

 

I mean, when you're deciding which pile of LDS horsesh&*t to climb over, the BofM is really just a little pile 'o poo.

 

Who really cares what Callister says?  He needs to keep his job, so he rants.

White Rabbit:

Yeah, I saw it.  Absolutely amazing.  Ya think the Quorum of 15 is a bit peeved with all the losses?  Actually, it's nice to see some life in a speaker.

 

I was very surprised to hear him say the names of Ethan Smith and Solomon Spaulding.  I wonder if those have ever been uttered over the pulpit before.

 

 What exactly did he say about Ethan Smith?

liveitout:

White Rabbit:

Yeah, I saw it.  Absolutely amazing.  Ya think the Quorum of 15 is a bit peeved with all the losses?  Actually, it's nice to see some life in a speaker.

 

I was very surprised to hear him say the names of Ethan Smith and Solomon Spaulding.  I wonder if those have ever been uttered over the pulpit before.

 

 What exactly did he say about Ethan Smith?

 

 I just finished listening to it.  He lumped Ethan Smith into failed theories - pathetic attempts to prove the BOM wrong. 

 

He said the detractors had to account for the Semitic writing found in the Book of Mormon.  

 

He basically said that those who deny it will have to stand before the bar of God for their actions.

 

I found it neither powerful nor offensive... other than in the fact that he said I would have to crawl around the BOM because there isn't credible evidence to suggest that it is true.

 

It was very emotionally manipulative.

TexasChick:

How come this quote:

 

""In this greatest hour of need, I ask you, would these man blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation, on a book they had fictitiously fabricated? Never mind their families would be widowed. Never mind that legions will die. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death, these two men would enter the presence of their eternal judge, quoting from a book, that if not the word of God, would have branded them as charlatans in heaven. They would not do that"

 

Reminds me so much of Derek Zoolander?:

 

"Do you understand that the world does not revolve around you and your do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make a name for yourself as an investigatory journalist, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way?"

 

A sympathetic use of 'not fictition' and 'word of God'  means nothing more than texts that promote love, compassion, honesty etc.   It certainly says nothing about the objective reality of gold plates or ancient american hebrew civilizations with steel swords and and Egyptian rooted language.  JS et al could strongly believe that they were serving God by creating the book, telling stories of their visions and dying - and not provide any more evidence than other saints, martyrs, prophets or charlatans over the millenia.

 

Jeffrey Holland does not seem to understand that we are not responsible for what JS and his companions believed, or why they believed it.  Many people have believed and done stranger things in the name of God.  Their lives were obviously very different than ours and there are many reasonable explanations and speculations about  JS's choices that are not consistent with the claims of the church.  But who knows.  What I am responsible for is studying the available evidence as best I can and making the best choice I can in light of that evidence.  

 

If Jeffrey Holland knows something that I don't about JS that relates to whether he should be trusted as a prophet and revelator of God I want to hear it.  But I don't see anything like that in the quotes and summaries of his talk.

 

<!--Session data--> <!--Session data-->

Noggin here... a ghost from the past!

 

anyway.

 

so.. okay... Mr. Holland moves that the Book of Mormon (ergo Mormonism) is true because Smith and witnesses never denied that they saw angels and that the book of Mormon is indeed True... and Smith & Smith sealed this testimony with their blood.

 

Did Mohammad ever deny that he saw the Angel Gabriel?  Did he deny the Qu'ran as God's only true book?  Did he or his cronies deny even one basic Muslim doctrine?  Did tens of thousands of Muslims die in defense of Islam in all those holy wars they engaged in?  They did die? wha...? wait a sec.

 

and... also... well, we certainly have to consider Judaism.

 

When Crusader armies-- on their way to the Holy Land-- attacked Jewish communities in the Rhine Valley, many Jews chose suicide over death at the hands of Christian mobs. Those Jews sealed their testimonies in blood.

 

By Holland's logic, Islam is just as true as Mormonism.

 

Conference was more than a little aggravating for me today... and I thought I had done some significantly beneficial healing.  Will I ever get past this. 

 

Look, the unfortunate side of Holland's misguided points is that there are so many churches that have come about with all too similar originic ingredients.  Holland said "They would not have done it [sealed their testimony in blood for a faked out religion they shammed into existence]."  However, it's simple insanity to say Mormon martyrdom makes the Mormon exclusivity claim any more true than the rest.

 

~Noggin

deseret news has his talk posted already.  i posted a negative comment while ago and it's still up. 

 

don't wanna put the link up here so they can trace hits and comments coming from this site.  but go there and post a comment if you feel the urge.  

And no suicide bomber would blow himself up if the Koran wasn't true. Members of The People's Temple wouldn't have drunk cyanide-laced Flavor Aid if Jim Jones wasn't a true prophet. And the followers of Heaven's Gate would never have committed suicide if there wasn't really an intergalactic spaceship flying behind the comet. See, it all makes sense! The Book of Mormon really must be true!

I saw the article summarizing the talk but not the talk itself.  Is the actual talk transcript posted?  I gotta read this thing.

New Attitude:

deseret news has his talk posted already.  i posted a negative comment while ago and it's still up. 

 

don't wanna put the link up here so they can trace hits and comments coming from this site.  but go there and post a comment if you feel the urge.  

From reading the comments, he is a big hit with the faithful.  Expect more of these 'powerful', GC talks in the future.  The others will have to out-do each other, eventually becoming more evangelical. 

 

I'm surprised they've left the dissenters' comments up as long as they have....must be a newbie that had to work CG Sunday. 

Elder Holland

 

"perhaps no other book in religious history has been examined and attacked, denied and deconstructed, targeted and torn apart as has the Book of Mormon. Yet it still stands "because there is no other answer than the one Joseph gave as its young learned translator."

 

It still stands, sure, propped up with willful neglect of outside examination of things that destroy its credibility.

 

First and FOREMOST... see this link, which in my opinion, is the penultimate Book of Mormon killshot:  Donofrio:  Book of Mormon Tories 

 

Then consider the rest, which is mere fodder in comparison:

 

anachronisms

plagerized passages taken directly from a late 18th century KJV bible

all the hotly debated theological topics of the early 19th century are "solved" inside the pages of the book of Mormon.

Early Amerindians really spoke like that?  "Wo unto you, thou shalt be dragged down by the cunning one by a flaxen chord"????  seriously?

Paul's conversion matches sons of Mosiah (fall to the ground, cant see, unconscious, taken to... )

Moroni's main discourses match many of Paul's in concept, language and sequence.

Nephi= Moses in life experience, call to ministry, trials, wandering, deliverance etc 

Nephi cutting off Laban's head matches a story in the apocrypha (Judith & Holefernes) and the apocrypha was in the Smith family KJV bible when the BOM came to light...

 

I mean, read Grant Palmer for primer on all this.

 

then, after Palmer, read Southerton about the problem of no semitic DNA in south America that would, by any stretch of the imagination, lead to a conclusion that a lost semitic civilization existed in S.A.,

 

then talk to the new Mormon movement for LGT.

 

..... people, I cannot reconcile Holland's definition of how a thing, in his mind, is to be classified as "True".  If a thing is to be classified as "True", it should therefore be the best, most accurate, most closely held representation of what most likely constitutes reality from fiction.

 

~Noggin

 

AZEvilSingleGuy:

President Monson's Conference Notepad:

 

1. Refill Holland's Prozac

2. Warm milk

3. Pepsi

4. Mention the widows

5. Include a triplet and reference the author/poet. I don't really read much of their writing, but it sure makes me look smart.

6. Re-order Netflicks rated R movies before going home. I want to see Grand Torino again, that was a good one.

 

Oh, you forgot one.  Make sure to use this line 100 times.

 

"Oh how I love the words of >>(insert b of m person)

 

I swear he says it so much!

I went to the DN site also and saw all of the love and support of Holland. I replied with this: "So, I want someone to explain to me why, after years of reading, praying, seeking, asking...I mean for years...I have never felt that the Book of Mormon is true or inspired. What am I doing wrong? I want to believe but I just don't get the message from anywhere that it is true." Anxious to see if any responses come.

Why are we apostates so persecuted?  Being persecuted means it's true! 

 

 

Joseph Smith didn't die because he wrote the BoM.  He died because he was a swindler and a con man and pissed half of Missouri off with his demands, voting blocks and his agressive, brainwashed army of farmboys.   He was in Carthage Jail because he had the Navoo Expositor destroyed and because he felt he was bigger than the law.  He was sailing a sinking ship and, unfortunately for all of us, his so-called martyrdom catipulted him into the rock star he's become.  I really wish he would not have been killed and instead had the church fall down around him.  I wouldn't be sitting here right now wondering which family member is going to feel the spirit first and forward this deplorable talk on to me.

Lloyd Dobler:

Did anyone just see Holland's talk?  Like the one he just gave like 20 minutes ago?  Holy Cow the dude went totally berzerk.  He said that the book of mormon must be true because there is NO WAY that Hyrum and Joseph would have gone to carthage (which he said they both KNEW that they were going to die there) and still maintained the book was true.  They would not have testified (in JS case) in the jail of the book truthfullness.  That Hyrum would never have comforted JS during this sore trial by reading from a ficticious book.. and on and on...

 

I mean people the dude went nuts on the pulpit.  He was totally animated with his hands.  Crazy facial expressions....Raised his voice......I have never seen anything like that ever.  Anyone else seen this and can add to it? 

 

 

 

 I thought the same thing, he sounded very, very angry (and I thought monson told the PH to not be angry?!).  So, just because they died, that means the BoM is true.  I hated that talk, I had to leave after that.

Holland didn't mention Joseph Smith's pistol-packing with his BoM testimony.

what a stupid premise for an argument...I guess that anyone leaving Scientology must crawl over or around dianetics, and anyone leaving Islam must crawl over or around the koran.....anyone leaving atheism must crawl over or around Dawkins latest book....years and years of preaching to the choir has dulled what ever debate skills he ever had, if any.

 

what goofballs...man, these guys  are pathetic aren't they?

Nogginus Skepticalus:

Noggin here... a ghost from the past!

 

anyway.

 

so.. okay... Mr. Holland moves that the Book of Mormon (ergo Mormonism) is true because Smith and witnesses never denied that they saw angels and that the book of Mormon is indeed True... and Smith & Smith sealed this testimony with their blood.

 

Did Mohammad ever deny that he saw the Angel Gabriel?  Did he deny the Qu'ran as God's only true book?  Did he or his cronies deny even one basic Muslim doctrine?  Did tens of thousands of Muslims die in defense of Islam in all those holy wars they engaged in?  They did die? wha...? wait a sec.

 

and... also... well, we certainly have to consider Judaism.

 

When Crusader armies-- on their way to the Holy Land-- attacked Jewish communities in the Rhine Valley, many Jews chose suicide over death at the hands of Christian mobs. Those Jews sealed their testimonies in blood.

 

By Holland's logic, Islam is just as true as Mormonism.

 

Conference was more than a little aggravating for me today... and I thought I had done some significantly beneficial healing.  Will I ever get past this. 

 

Look, the unfortunate side of Holland's misguided points is that there are so many churches that have come about with all too similar originic ingredients.  Holland said "They would not have done it [sealed their testimony in blood for a faked out religion they shammed into existence]."  However, it's simple insanity to say Mormon martyrdom makes the Mormon exclusivity claim any more true than the rest.

 

~Noggin

 

 Side note, good to see you Noggin, I always loved your posts back when you were a regular (I may have been "awake" back then).

Tessa:
Holland didn't mention Joseph Smith's pistol-packing with his BoM testimony.

 

 Or his taking off his garments before going to Carthage and telling others to do so as well.

Sounds like they're beginning to sweat....soon they'll be "melting...melting...melting...."

MIL just told DW that this was her favorite talk.  She's ga-ga for emotional manipulation.  That's not good, considering DW is getting ready to "come out" to her parents. 

 

Lovely.