deseret news has his talk posted already. i posted a negative comment while ago and it's still up.
don't wanna put the link up here so they can trace hits and comments coming from this site. but go there and post a comment if you feel the urge.
From reading the comments, he is a big hit with the faithful. Expect more of these 'powerful', GC talks in the future. The others will have to out-do each other, eventually becoming more evangelical.
I'm surprised they've left the dissenters' comments up as long as they have....must be a newbie that had to work CG Sunday.
Well I hope the other GA's start emulating Hollands' new oratorical flourishes. Maybe conference will start being just a shade less dull.
Why are we apostates so persecuted? Being persecuted means it's true!
Joseph Smith didn't die because he wrote the BoM. He died because he was a swindler and a con man and pissed half of Missouri off with his demands, voting blocks and his agressive, brainwashed army of farmboys. He was in Carthage Jail because he had the Navoo Expositor destroyed and because he felt he was bigger than the law. He was sailing a sinking ship and, unfortunately for all of us, his so-called martyrdom catipulted him into the rock star he's become. I really wish he would not have been killed and instead had the church fall down around him. I wouldn't be sitting here right now wondering which family member is going to feel the spirit first and forward this deplorable talk on to me.
Exactly my reaction, Mish. Although I'm a believer in the Book of Mormon (Yikes! Put down those rocks, people!), I was astounded at Holland's inference that the mob that killed joseph was motivated by their hatred for the Book of Mormon.
Are we to believe that if Joseph had renounced his religion, that the mob would disperse? They weren't there because for because they differed with him theologically.
I thank the Almighty for my testimony of the Book of Mormon, this
wonderful companion to the Holy Bible. It is strange to me that
unbelieving critics must still go back to the old allegations that
Joseph Smith wrote the book out of ideas gained from Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews
and Solomon Spaulding’s manuscript. To compare the Book of Mormon with
these is like comparing a man to a horse. It is true they both walk,
but beyond this there is little similarity. The test of the book is in
its reading. I speak as one who has read it again and again and tasted
of its beauty and depth and power. Could Joseph Smith, I ask you, the
young man reared in rural New York largely without schooling, have
dictated in so short a time a volume so complex in its nature and yet
so harmonious in its whole, with so large a cast of characters and so
extensive in its scope? Could he of his own abilities have created the
language, the thought, the moving inspiration that has caused millions
over the earth to read and say, “It is true”?
Man to horse. Hmm. I had in mind a snarky reply with a picture of a centaur. I googled for an image and some kinda odd, kinda funny ones popped up. Can't help but share:
I can't stop laughing at the Equus get-up saddled next to the GBH quote. Highlaaarrriousss!
1. My Mother called me after conference to gush about how "powerful" this talk was. I conceeded that it was certainly out of the ordinary.
2. Seems like a risky move to call out Ethan Smith and Solomon Spalding by name in conference. Now, when a church member gets curious about the talk (s)he heard in General Conferece, she will have two places to start Googling. Although they weren't critics of the church or the Book of Mormon, any commentary about their writings is bound to include dreaded "anti-mormon" material. Ooops!
For that reason, I'm curious if this reference will be missing from the print edition in the Ensign.
1. My Mother called me after conference to gush about how "powerful" this talk was. I conceeded that it was certainly out of the ordinary.
2. Seems like a risky move to call out Ethan Smith and Solomon Spalding by name in conference. Now, when a church member gets curious about the talk (s)he heard in General Conferece, she will have two places to start Googling. Although they weren't critics of the church or the Book of Mormon, any commentary about their writings is bound to include dreaded "anti-mormon" material. Ooops!
For that reason, I'm curious if this reference will be missing from the print edition in the Ensign.
You know, I'll bet you anything it will be gone.
We'll see on Thursday when they post the text versions of GC talks. I'm thinking it will stay since it's already posted on YouTube.
Where were glass windows mentioned or implied in the BofM? I hadn't heard that one.
Thanks Gilgal for posting the reference.
This is OT, and I don't want to thread-jack, but Waterman, I would never throw a rock at you but I implore you to look into the entire Book of Ether story, think about it objectively, and I think you'll find it is one of the most damning evidences against the BoM. It is really ridiculous. I'd start here.
In terms of the glass windows, to get the full effect you need to read Ether 2:22-24. Clearly the Lord was talking about a window (his word) that could be dashed into pieces (his word again) and yet would be transparent (that is the whole point, to let light into the vessel). The only possible material that fits this description is glass, or something even more modern. This is a glaring anachronism, because nobody at that time had any concept of panes of glass in a window, not any other window material that would have fit this description even close. So even if it wasn't glass, it is still a non-sensical anachronism. I've searched high and low, and there is no apologetic response to this one that makes any kind of sense. Best of luck to you
ClearThoughts: I can't stop laughing at the Equus get-up saddled next to the GBH quote. Highlaaarrriousss!
I vote for it to become Gilgal's new avatar.
You sayin' I'm some kind of horse-gimp?
And, ClearThoughts, I didn't even have to come up with a snarky comment for the reason you mention -- just the juxtaposition of a GBH quote with my horse-gimp was enough.
Where were glass windows mentioned or implied in the BofM? I hadn't heard that one.
Thanks Gilgal for posting the reference.
This is OT, and I don't want to thread-jack, but Waterman, I would never throw a rock at you but I implore you to look into the entire Book of Ether story, think about it objectively, and I think you'll find it is one of the most damning evidences against the BoM. It is really ridiculous. I'd start here.
In terms of the glass windows, to get the full effect you need to read Ether 2:22-24. Clearly the Lord was talking about a window (his word) that could be dashed into pieces (his word again) and yet would be transparent (that is the whole point, to let light into the vessel). The only possible material that fits this description is glass, or something even more modern. This is a glaring anachronism, because nobody at that time had any concept of panes of glass in a window, not any other window material that would have fit this description even close. So even if it wasn't glass, it is still a non-sensical anachronism. I've searched high and low, and there is no apologetic response to this one that makes any kind of sense. Best of luck to you
The human/horse picture above actually looks like someone doing pony play, a form of sexual role playing I never understood, but I saw something on TV about it once.
Bringitdown:
The human/horse picture above actually looks like someone doing pony play, a form of sexual role playing I never understood, but I saw something on TV about it once.
You just never know what you'll learn here on PostMo, now do you!
And to the Church HQ spy who is printing this out for Jeffrey's files, please don't censor or black out these parts. You just never know what he might be interested in learning about!
ClearThoughts: I can't stop laughing at the Equus get-up saddled next to the GBH quote. Highlaaarrriousss!
I vote for it to become Gilgal's new avatar.
You sayin' I'm some kind of horse-gimp?
And, ClearThoughts, I didn't even have to come up with a snarky comment for the reason you mention -- just the juxtaposition of a GBH quote with my horse-gimp was enough.
I know, it's one of your best pairings. S&M photos with quotes from the prophets, classic....you are going to hell you know.
ClearThoughts: I can't stop laughing at the Equus get-up saddled next to the GBH quote. Highlaaarrriousss!
I vote for it to become Gilgal's new avatar.
You sayin' I'm some kind of horse-gimp?
And, ClearThoughts, I didn't even have to come up with a snarky comment for the reason you mention -- just the juxtaposition of a GBH quote with my horse-gimp was enough.
I know, it's one of your best pairings. S&M photos with quotes from the prophets, classic....you are going to hell you know.
Yep, I'm going to hell. In a handbasket. In a horse-gimp costume.
I am always late to these discussions because I have to ponder and stew for twenty four hours and let my blood go from boiling to simmering. First, I am looking forward to the exmo conference and listening to Craig Criddle give what I am sure will be a "reason filled" explanation for many alternate theories of the coming forth of the BOM; theories, of course, that Holland has debunked long ago. Second, my DH is pissed and wants to send in our letters this week, Yeah. Third, we have sought to silently slip out without offending our family or neighbors, just leave with a "live and let live" attitude. Now, Holland comes along and tells us that we cannot do this. Instead he has thrown the first punch in the fight. He has shown us (and our TBM children) that loud confrontation and fighting are acceptable behavior, discussion and reason are not. If we leave, we cannot do so quietly because we have to first crawl over the Book of Mormon and the people who hold that book sacred and they are not going to allow us to do so without a fight. Last, when I graduated from BYU many years ago, I attended a graduation reception where Holland greeted the students and their parents. I was so excited to introduce "President Holland" to my non-member father as he had been such an influence on me during those impressionable years. I was totally taken back when my normally polite father said, "that man gives me the creeps." My father, may he rest in peace, would be happy to know that I now wholeheartedly agree.
I am always late to these discussions because I have to ponder and stew for twenty four hours and let my blood go from boiling to simmering. First, I am looking forward to the exmo conference and listening to Craig Criddle give what I am sure will be a "reason filled" explanation for many alternate theories of the coming forth of the BOM; theories, of course, that Holland has debunked long ago. Second, my DH is pissed and wants to send in our letters this week, Yeah. Third, we have sought to silently slip out without offending our family or neighbors, just leave with a "live and let live" attitude. Now, Holland comes along and tells us that we cannot do this. Instead he has thrown the first punch in the fight. He has shown us (and our TBM children) that loud confrontation and fighting are acceptable behavior, discussion and reason are not. If we leave, we cannot do so quietly because we have to first crawl over the Book of Mormon and the people who hold that book sacred and they are not going to allow us to do so without a fight. Last, when I graduated from BYU many years ago, I attended a graduation reception where Holland greeted the students and their parents. I was so excited to introduce "President Holland" to my non-member father as he had been such an influence on me during those impressionable years. I was totally taken back when my normally polite father said, "that man gives me the creeps." My father, may he rest in peace, would be happy to know that I now wholeheartedly agree.
You don't have to crawl over the BoM, you have to dodge them because TBMs are throwing them at you as you try to slip away.
A friend sent this to me. It may be from another board. I really don't know. I think it's relevant considering Hollands behavior:
"It was more than three years ago that I came across an online interview with LDS author and retired CES director Grant Palmer in which he said that he had it on good authority that Tom Monson, then First Pres. counselor, acknowledged that "the church is hemorrhaging." The figure of resignations per year from the church was 100,000 members, according to Palmer's source, presumably at the COB.
In his masterful book, "When God Becomes a Drug: Breaking the Chains of Religious Addiction and Abuse", Father Leo Booth explains the stages of religious addiction. One of the symptoms is increasing desperation, as manifested by displays of authoritarianism (e.g., verbal abusing others), an intensification of polarized (i.e., all-or-nothing) religious thinking, and psychological clinging (at all costs) to beliefs that are demonstrably nonsensical.
Mormon 'profits' are losing control, particularly of members, thanks to the Internet, and at some level of awareness, they know it. In centuries past, religiously-addicted men ordered people to believe or suffer torture and/or death. In 2009, the best LDS apostles can come up with is to threaten Latter-day Saints with punishments from God, the 'Holy Ghost' leaving them, 'Satan's buffetings', and 'eternal damnation' if they don't 'repent'. "
We all know the resignation numbers etc. And we also know that some of what holland said from the pulpit has been said before. But the anger, the desperation, the lack of genuine smugness is telling.
We may be entering this type of phase from the brethren. Anger and brow beating are not long term strategies to employ even to faithful members. After the anger and the manipulation the 15 will be forced to go into ass kissing mode from the pulpit. They will eventually realize they should be happy anybody is paying them 10% and tolerating all the lies.....
"...brand them as impostors and charlatans until the end of time." --Holland
At least he got that part right!!
Seriously, though. My position on the authenticity of the BOM is this: As I've said many times before... If the BOM, or the Koran, or the Bible, or any other book helps someone get through the day, then more power to them. I'm not into disproving other people's religions.
But DON'T TREAD ON ME in the name of your god. That is all.
I watched that talk with my wife. I was in the other room, but when I heard yelling, I had to check it out.
A few things that should be pointed out to old Jeff:
Raising your voice does not make your right.
The fact that many people believe something does not actually make that thing true. (Example: Tupac is dead. Really.)
Name calling makes you seem desparate.
Joseph Smith could not have saved his life in Carthage by denying the Book of Mormon. It is a very dramatic premise -- "Deny your testimony or die!" -- however, it does not reflect what actually happened."
If theBook of Mormon is so important, why do we ignore the parts that contradict current church practices? (For example, Moroni 8:22-23 which say that baptisms for the dead are a "mockery before God.")
There are 'alternate' accounts of how the Book of Mormon came to be which are at least as compelling as the official LDS account.
Amen to that. Like you I noticed the loud voice and it just made him appear desperate. On 4 I would add that there is a lot of reason to believe that Joseph did not think he was actually going to die. For one thing the governor had assured his safety but Joseph was also, if I recall correctly, sending for the Nauvoo Legion to come protect him.
On 6 I would add that I really don't care how the BoM came into existence-even if Joseph couldn't or didn't write it (which I think he is much more educated and intelligent than people give him credit for) that does not make the most believable possible origin that God sent angels to reveal gold plates and helped them be translated when the book is full of anachronisms, problematic history and it comes from a man who demonstrated by the BoA that he lied about his translation abilities. I think even if I don't know how or if Joseph Smith wrote the BoM or if someone else did I can still safely ascertain it is a fraud.
I have a bunch of friends who have commented on message boards or facebook statuses about how Holland's talk changed their lives, etc. It made me curious what it was about, but not curious enough to subject myself to watching it itself. (That was a horrible, torturous thing to deal with growing up in the church and I'm so glad I don't have to watch conference ever again!)
I get the general idea of the talk from the posts here, and posts from my TBM friends. It makes me worry for the increased zealotry and self-righteous thinking that will surely come from this sort of "inspiring" moment. I know I'm considered to be selfish and foolish for turning my back on the One True Church, and I hate to think of that perspective being solidified even further in my friends' and families' minds.
Amen to that. Like you I noticed the loud voice and it just made him appear desperate. On 4 I would add that there is a lot of reason to believe that Joseph did not think he was actually going to die. For one thing the governor had assured his safety but Joseph was also, if I recall correctly, sending for the Nauvoo Legion to come protect him.
On 6 I would add that I really don't care how the BoM came into existence-even if Joseph couldn't or didn't write it (which I think he is much more educated and intelligent than people give him credit for) that does not make the most believable possible origin that God sent angels to reveal gold plates and helped them be translated when the book is full of anachronisms, problematic history and it comes from a man who demonstrated by the BoA that he lied about his translation abilities. I think even if I don't know how or if Joseph Smith wrote the BoM or if someone else did I can still safely ascertain it is a fraud.
In my mind, the Harry Potter series is more complex and better written than the BofM. Same could be said of Lord of the Rings. Especially since the BofM has needed more than 4000 changes to it. It certainly does seem as though less educated individuals put it together than JK Rowling had etc. Mark Twain said the BofM was cloraform in print, and would be a mere pamplet if "And it came to pass" hadn't been so heavily employed. The BofM appears to be over the top biblical speak, to give it that old world holy sound to it. It's origins aren't really that important to me either. There are hundreds if not thousands of other logical reasons that demonstrate that Mormonism is not what it claims: The One True Church.
In my mind, the Harry Potter series is more complex and better written than the BofM. Same could be said of Lord of the Rings. Especially since the BofM has needed more than 4000 changes to it. It certainly does seem as though less educated individuals put it together than JK Rowling had etc. Mark Twain said the BofM was cloraform in print, and would be a mere pamplet if "And it came to pass" hadn't been so heavily employed. The BofM appears to be over the top biblical speak, to give it that old world holy sound to it. It's origins aren't really that important to me either. There are hundreds if not thousands of other logical reasons that demonstrate that Mormonism is not what it claims: The One True Church.
I'd say BH Robert would agree:
“In the first place
there is a certain lack of perspective in the
things the book relates as history that points quite clearly to an
underdeveloped mind as their origin. The narrative proceeds in
characteristic disregard of conditions necessary to its reasonableness,
as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for
consistency.”
This applies to the body of the Church and to its leaders.
How would you (anyone) KNOW that Joseph and Hyrum wouldn't or didn't make it up?
Did he come to you in a dream?
Did he appear in the temple to you?
Did you read it off a rock in the bottom of a hat?
What? Cough up the proof behind the manipulative, leading statements already.
Bottom line - You don't know. And admiting that you don't know anything, is terrifying. Therein is the big secret of life boys and girls...nobody "knows" anything.
"The Glory of God is Intelligence" right? Per your sign down at BYU... Start using your brain before you spout off platitudes of how God wants someone else to be. Why?
Because you aint Him, Her, It, whatever and you don't know anymore than anyone else does which truly is ZIP.
Gypsy Soul:
Still getting up the courage to watch this... haven't watched conference in years. But without watching it, I already know one thing for certain: my parents took this as a direct message to them about me and my sister. Especially since I confided to my sometimes not-so-mo brother in law all the stuff I had read in the last year. Pretty sure Thanksgiving is going to be UBER AWKWARD.
That is exactly how I was feeling. Just so happened that I chose the week before conference to send my "I'm leaving the Mormon Church" letter to my entire family & Mormon friends. What was I thinking?! I could just picture my whole family listening to conference with tears streaming down their eyes. Thank you Elder Holland for giving them some ammunition! Thank you for driving that wedge in even further! I've already received 2 emails from TBMs requesting that I watch the talk. (Good thing for this site! I was already prepared for this!) I'd love to hear from other POMOs who have been forwarded this talk by TBMs and how you've been handling it. I've ignored for now since I'm not sure how to respond.
Gypsy Soul:
Still getting up the courage to watch this... haven't watched conference in years. But without watching it, I already know one thing for certain: my parents took this as a direct message to them about me and my sister. Especially since I confided to my sometimes not-so-mo brother in law all the stuff I had read in the last year. Pretty sure Thanksgiving is going to be UBER AWKWARD.
That is exactly how I was feeling. Just so happened that I chose the week before conference to send my "I'm leaving the Mormon Church" letter to my entire family & Mormon friends. What was I thinking?! I could just picture my whole family listening to conference with tears streaming down their eyes. Thank you Elder Holland for giving them some ammunition! Thank you for driving that wedge in even further! I've already received 2 emails from TBMs requesting that I watch the talk. (Good thing for this site! I was already prepared for this!) I'd love to hear from other POMOs who have been forwarded this talk by TBMs and how you've been handling it. I've ignored for now since I'm not sure how to respond.
I just told them I was already aware of the talk and that I was pretty sure my interpretation of it was different from theirs. I got sweet silence as a response.
Gypsy Soul:
Still getting up the courage to watch this... haven't watched conference in years. But without watching it, I already know one thing for certain: my parents took this as a direct message to them about me and my sister. Especially since I confided to my sometimes not-so-mo brother in law all the stuff I had read in the last year. Pretty sure Thanksgiving is going to be UBER AWKWARD.
That is exactly how I was feeling. Just so happened that I chose the week before conference to send my "I'm leaving the Mormon Church" letter to my entire family & Mormon friends. What was I thinking?! I could just picture my whole family listening to conference with tears streaming down their eyes. Thank you Elder Holland for giving them some ammunition! Thank you for driving that wedge in even further! I've already received 2 emails from TBMs requesting that I watch the talk. (Good thing for this site! I was already prepared for this!) I'd love to hear from other POMOs who have been forwarded this talk by TBMs and how you've been handling it. I've ignored for now since I'm not sure how to respond.
I just told them I was already aware of the talk and that I was pretty sure my interpretation of it was different from theirs. I got sweet silence as a response.
Here's my harsh response:
If mormonism is working for you, stick with it, but I don't believe in it anymore than I believe in Scientology, Islam, or Hinduism. If you really want my opinion of any mormon material, I'll give it to you. Do you really want it? When I watched Holland, all I saw was a man in distress.
"...brand them as impostors and charlatans until the end of time." --Holland
At least he got that part right!!
Seriously, though. My position on the authenticity of the BOM is this: As I've said many times before... If the BOM, or the Koran, or the Bible, or any other book helps someone get through the day, then more power to them. I'm not into disproving other people's religions.
But DON'T TREAD ON ME in the name of your god. That is all.
Gypsy Soul:
Still getting up the courage to watch this... haven't watched conference in years. But without watching it, I already know one thing for certain: my parents took this as a direct message to them about me and my sister. Especially since I confided to my sometimes not-so-mo brother in law all the stuff I had read in the last year. Pretty sure Thanksgiving is going to be UBER AWKWARD.
That is exactly how I was feeling. Just so happened that I chose the week before conference to send my "I'm leaving the Mormon Church" letter to my entire family & Mormon friends. What was I thinking?! I could just picture my whole family listening to conference with tears streaming down their eyes. Thank you Elder Holland for giving them some ammunition! Thank you for driving that wedge in even further! I've already received 2 emails from TBMs requesting that I watch the talk. (Good thing for this site! I was already prepared for this!) I'd love to hear from other POMOs who have been forwarded this talk by TBMs and how you've been handling it. I've ignored for now since I'm not sure how to respond.
Maybe you could reciprocate the concern and email them back a request that they watch the Book of Abraham documentary.
The only thing that would have made his talk better would be to see an entire row of people pull out their hats and shove their heads in them as he's ranting. Could you imagine his reaction?
I could only get to the part where he talked about the witnesses. His presentation of the witnesses is not accurate. We all know that.
These men , I think, are incapable of telling the truth. Why have we never seen such a spirited defense of the Book of Abraham from the General Conference pulpit?
""In this greatest hour of need, I ask you, would these man blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation, on a book they had fictitiously fabricated? Never mind their families would be widowed. Never mind that legions will die. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death, these two men would enter the presence of their eternal judge, quoting from a book, that if not the word of God, would have branded them as charlatans in heaven. They would not do that"
Did Joseph ever quote anything from the Book of Mormon? I could be wrong here, but I am not aware of any time that Joseph taught from the Book of Mormon. Any fact checkers out there? that could help me out with this?
I've only told 5 individuals of my apostasy (4 PoMo or ExMo and 1 NeverMo). When I finally out myself to the rest of the world, I hope they bring this one to me. Hollands rant is so full of logical fallacy and bullsh!t, that it will be easy to refute and provide a few WTF moments for some TBMs. A point-by-point response to the rant might actually keep some from bothering you again.
PLEASE....I want a copy! It would be PERFECT for demonstrating what is really happening when people think they are "feeling the Spirit"!
Highlaaarrriousss!
