Yeah, Peter_Mary does it again. His analogies are always awesome. I'm a fan of the analogy that we are all "emptying our church bags," too.
I think this place really helped me realize that my inability to know the chruch was true wasn't my fault. For so long I blamed myself for not being worthy of an answer. Now I just know that an answer isn't coming. Finding people that are in a similar situation really has helped me shed the guilt that has overwhelmed me for so long.
Life seems so peaceful at the roadside inn and beyond.
I think THIS is more like what you are likely to find at a roadside inn:
Still damn inviting and she seems to be sporting "MASSIVE TRACTS OF LAND". That's got to make up for any other exceptional issues. After a few beers and some warm cheer we all look pretty good.
She must be from California. If you look closely, you can see the San Andreas Fault...
You may be correct Jack. She moonlights as a transport for illegal aliens. She can hide up to six small Mexicans in that crevice and come across the border with no questions asked.
YES!!! I watched Ellen DeGeneres today and some generously endowed black gal was in the money wind tube thingy and managed to stuff a whole lot of paper bills between those puppies. They work like second set of hands for holding stuff. I use mine as a sort of book support and press the spine in there and keep the book open across the top and out of the water while I soak in the tub. WHich reminds me of the joke with the punchline, "no, pastmyboobs is deep enough".
Dahli-mama:
YES!!! I watched Ellen DeGeneres today and some generously endowed black gal was in the money wind tube thingy and managed to stuff a whole lot of paper bills between those puppies. They work like second set of hands for holding stuff. I use mine as a sort of book support and press the spine in there and keep the book open across the top and out of the water while I soak in the tub. WHich reminds me of the joke with the punchline, "no, pastmyboobs is deep enough".
They hide cell phones great too, plus you get the vibrating jolt...invigorating & also the ONLY way to not miss calls in the bar! hehe
Double X, I've dearly missed you and hope you're doing well. I saw these shoes today on a hilarious website devoted to tasteless homemade gifts and for some reason I got a wistful longing for you. In that same instant, your name appeared on this thread. I think it must be a sign from God watching out for both of us. He manifests himself in every kind of tastelessness from appearing in dog butts to tree sap and basement mildew, but these shoes prove his value more than any other thing Ive ever seen. I hope these give you a tasteless shoegasm. You deserve it girly. These are for you.
I'm new to post mormon and definately don't like the thought of ever leaving because i've needed it so much, but that little analogy was absolutely beautiful.
This website has meant so much to me. The ironic thing is, I almost do wish there was a place on sunday where I could make friends with these people and meet for three hours ha ha (no koolaid!). For once I feel like I've found a place where others exist and share simillar views on acceptance as I.
I do like the concept that anyone who stops here can find their own journey however. Maybe some people find a faith they believe in for the right reasons this time, maybe some stay neutral, maybe some are athiests or agnostics etc.
Whatever they become, I'm pretty sure it will encompase a great deal of acceptance and love for those who think differently or don't feel they fit into their surroundings or circumstances. I think comming out of mormonism gives you a great deal of sympathy and compassion for those who face religous trials because we realize how extremely tough it is. Here's to helping others who face these battles.. Cheers!
dont know if my presence here helps anyone but me however as a bouncer just say the PM and they are outta here thanks for the shelter from the storm thanks to those who take the time to talk to me best wishes to all
At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with being here in whatever way you need to be here, and everything right with leaving when you feel rested and ready to venture back out on the journey. The Inn is always open, it never moves, and someone is always ready to put another log on the fire and sit down with you to talk whenever you come in, come back, or come home.
That's Postmormon.org to me.
this is a great post. that time of walking away from the constant dialogue of mormonism took me a long time to get to, but it sure felt good to be there.
again. what a fantastic post and what a thoughtful vision.
It cannot meet everyone's needs, but the more people we find here, the broader the spectrum of needs that can be met.
I can say that in my case, Postmormon.org has met my needs through every one of the following phases.
TBM -- Blissful Ignorance
TBM -- Niggling Suspicions
TBM -- All Denial of Doubts
Going through significant destablishing event (pain, loss, something F'ed up happened at church, etc)
TBM/Postmormon -- Active, unfiltered research
Shock, Awe, Anger, Depression
Decision/Non-Decision Time
Belief System Collapse
Belief System Rebuild / Cult Recovery
Engaging a New Community
I'm interested in knowing what the broader spectrum of needs is. What are the unmet needs? Just how many ways can the pain of people leaving the church be eased?
I'm interested in knowing what the broader spectrum of needs is. What are the unmet needs? Just how many ways can the pain of people leaving the church be eased?
i think there are painful symptoms while leaving the church, and in all these phases you identified there are painful symptoms. but i do not think leaving the church is painful. leaving that place is invigorating and profound. for many people it is the most promoting and powerful step of their life.
now, losing a lifetime of traditions and having your family turn against you is painful. and questioning every decision made and all the consequences of those decisions, including marriage, careers, family size, education, missions and where you live and who you hang out with - and then deciding to turn that all inside out, that can be a bitch.
the pain does not come from leaving the church. that step is powerful. the pain comes from feeling so many losses and regrets and then having our families question or insult us - and they do this why? because the one leaving the church is telling the truth. that is what makes it a cult, when telling the truth is the betrayal.
I'm interested in knowing what the broader spectrum of needs is. What are the unmet needs? Just how many ways can the pain of people leaving the church be eased?
i think there are painful symptoms while leaving the church, and in all these phases you identified there are painful symptoms. but i do not think leaving the church is painful. leaving that place is invigorating and profound. for many people it is the most promoting and powerful step of their life.
Maybe a more accurate list of the Stages/Phases of Leaving and Recovering would include a breakdown of the more positive and powerful phases that we experience along the way.
I would love to add these onto the end of the list in my previous post. In fact, i will. I'm peppering my experience of the more positive stages in a rough order, peppering in concepts from Steve Hassan, Nathaniel Branden, and basic personal development/empowerment literature:
Realizing that The Church amounts to no more than just a freaky 19th-Century sex cult, that it therefore still IS cultish, and that you are, in fact, the victim of what is called mind control.
Learning to be aware of and accept your Post-Cult Identity/self, your thoughts, your feelings
Learning how thoughts and emotions really work (psychology, the brain)
Learning self-responsibility and victim/magical thinking, what I can/can't control
Figuring out what you really want in life now that you live in a world of unlimited possibility
Discover what belief systems and philosophies also exist, sort through them in defining my own
Look back at my life and understand decisions, beliefs, personality, etc, before/during/after the cult
Learning to assert yourself and your wants and needs
Feeling peace that it is all going to be all right and you have made significant strides, celebrate. Later, feeling peace, calm, confidence, powerful, invigorated, profound on the majority of days
Focus on outcomes not busy work, being Purposeful. Overcoming perfectionism.
Learning how to be Authentic, align behavior with new beliefs. Overcoming self-deception and believing thy own bullshit.
Getting a diagnosis from a trusted professional what my emotional issues are, or existing disorders, and proceeding to get help from there, if needed.
Giving back, supporting others in the same boat
I have felt the same wonderful things you have described. I felt them not at all in the beginning 2 years, but then on a pretty steady incline over the last year and a half--including sharp spikes upward and a few deep valleys.
Of course it goes without saying that not everyone who leaves goes through all of these, or in the same order, and some were probably never an issue at all to anyone.
But I am willing to bet that these two lists combined represent 10-20 stages that are held in common by he majority of us, and that certain, common, predictable milestones happen during the steps along the way. What I'd give my eye teeth to see is a visual, Gantt Chart-like representation of the process. Hmmm....
i think your list probably covers the majority of us and the majority of our lives since deciding to get out. it is well done.
the two years you mention probably lasted much longer for me. it is easy now to look back at it and wish it had been shorter. but, ya know what, i needed those years. i needed those fights online. i needed to go after otterson at the washington post and i needed to be engaged in the real fight against prop 8 here in california. as prop 8 was higher profile, i wanted and needed to be as angry as i was. but i sure am glad to be calmer about it all now. that was not sustainable.
Thank you PostMormon.org. The refuge, understanding, safety, wisdom, and support I have gained here is truly wonderful. The PostMo oasis is making my journey out of Mormonism feel safe and absolutely certain. Thanks for the warm fire.
This thread is like PostMormon scripture to me. You read it at different times and it takes on different meanings.
When this was first posted in 2009 I was in the middle of an angry ExMo stage. I spent a lot of time on here venting and working through my emotions, some of which I didn't fully understand at the time. I didn't understand what Peter_Mary meant by, "I see Postmormon.org as a Roadside Inn along the pathway that leads away from the church" because I never imagined leaving PostMormon (though I was definitely leaving the church). It was my daily safe refuge (often for more hours than I care to admit). I was definitely someone who was "cold, wet, battered and bruised, hungry" -- and angry. Very angry.
Then came a stage where I gradually spent less and less time each day. I would stop in for a proverbial cup of coffee, warm myself, and then move on. Then I got to a point where I only stopped by the bar for a little merriment and a slap on the back -- once a week or so.
I've noticed that I still come by, sometimes daily, but I don't "need" it like I used to. My drop-in is usually very short, to read a thread or two, and then I move on with my day.
I've healed a lot of my bruises and my anger has subsided in large measure. But I needed this place -- and by this place, I mean these friends -- to help with that. Having a place to safely process thoughts and ideas is so invaluable.
I'd like add a few other observations about this phenomenon of renegotiating your relationship with Mormonism. In the OP, Peter_Mary says that PostMormon is "the pathway that leads away from the church" (italics added). I would like to say that it has helped me to renegotiate my relationship with the church.
Like it or not, I will always be "Mormon." I was born in Salt Lake and have multiple generations of Mormons in my past (including polygamists and pioneers); I grew up in a Mormon family, in a Mormon community, served a mission, and was married in the temple. Along the way I served in more callings than I can remember and spent more hours than I can count on chapel pews. Even if I were to resign (not in the plans right now), I'd still be "Mormon."
I think the same is true for a great many on here. Some converts, depending on how long they were in, can truly and completely walk away. But for others, it's in the DNA, even as the beliefs change.
When I was angrily walking away from the church, I wanted nothing to do with it. I didn't want to attend (and didn't and still don't), I didn't want Mormon friends (and kept some very nice people who happened to be Mormon at arm's length), I just didn't want any association with it. I had already been mentally out by the time I joined up here on PostMo, but I needed to process through several issues, including how to renegotiate a life in a TBM family.
But as others have discussed here, we go through stages. I softened over time. I can't see a time I would ever become active in the institutional church again, but I'll always be associated with the culture in some way. I've let down my guard with my Mormon friends and realized that I have more in common with some of them than I suspected.
We tend to put people into categories -- TBM, NOM, PostMo, JackMo, etc. -- but really these categories aren't always neat, discrete divisions. We fall along a continuum or we move between categories, or sometimes we have characteristics from multiple groups.
I've learned just how true this is as I've opened myself up (something I think PostMo helped me do) to some people I can truly call friends and found that some that I would have categorized as "TBM" at first glance are really NOMs or liberal Mormons. They do Mormonism on their own terms and in their own way. I can respect that. In fact, I have to since these same friends respect me doing Mormonism in my own way (even participating on boards like PostMormon or with podcasts like Mormon Expression is a way of "doing Mormonism"). These friends may not completely understand me or my agnostic/atheistic approach to the god question, but they respect it just as I respect their right to do Mormonism on their own terms.
So, while PostMormon did indeed help me move away from the institutional church, it has also helped me in my current and future relationship with Mormonism. It gave me a safe place to exorcise some demons and to get to know and understand myself better. I have a lot more empathy for the way the church affects people and for the way people choose to interact with Mormonism--the church and the culture.
This truly has been an "arduous journey," but one worth going through.
This thread is like PostMormon scripture to me. You read it at different times and it takes on different meanings.
<snipped stuff>
This truly has been an "arduous journey," but one worth going through.
I get what you mean SE. I just got back from Utah where I met up with all my family. It was a great reunion but full of the usual bickering and snide looks that come from the fact that I am not on the same path as many of the family. My BIL constantly stared at one or another of my family mainly because I was wearing shorts and my wife and daughters wore tank tops in southern Utah in July.
Nevertheless, postmormon and my association with many of y'all in real life helped me ground. I didn't feel a need to fight back or hide. I didn't grab garment friendly clothes or bash with anyone about doctrine.
I don't spend near as much time hear as I once did. That could change in the future. I am glad the door to the inn is open for me and all of us.
I'd like add a few other observations about this phenomenon of renegotiating your relationship with Mormonism. In the OP, Peter_Mary says that PostMormon is "the pathway that leads away from the church" (italics added). I would like to say that it has helped me to renegotiate my relationship with the church.
This is a beautiful observation, and I think it speaks to the power of healing. It is most often not rational for the majority of former Mormons to believe they can "leave the church and never look back." That may be true in one very limited context, but most of us have relationships that we value that reside squarely in church-space, and because of those relationships, we often find that we "cut off the church to spite our own face." In other words, we lose something of ourselves if we think (usually wrongly) that we can actually "leave" the church completely.
Like Swearing Elder, I had to find the safe middle ground. I had to find the space in my world where I felt perfectly comfortable being the "non-church attending athiest" while maintaining quality relationships with my Mormon friends, family and co-workers. The truth is, finding that space may have been harder than processing the anger I had toward the church. But in the end, it has proven to be well worth the effort. I have healthy, intact relationships with my extended Mormon family, and it is perfectly comfortable living where I do, surrounded by Mormons.
I know that I found Postmo to be much the same as Swearing Elder and Hiker Daddy (both of whom I count as friends) I needed the space to work out my anger. And this was a much safer place to do it than in the context of my Mormon relationships. As a result of spending my angst HERE, I was able to not burn the bridges THERE. And I am the beneficiary of that. As are my wife and my children.
Thank you, Swearing Elder, for illuminating this important aspect of "The Inn at the Side of the Road." And I can't WAIT to hang out with you in September!!! :)
Forgive the length of this - but the following fit right in with the sentiment.
From Sam Walter Foss - a poem that I have chosen to live my life by.
There are hermit souls that live withdrawn
In the place of their self-content;
There are souls like stars, that dwell apart,
In a fellowless firmament;
There are pioneer souls that blaze the paths
Where highways never ran-
But let me live by the side of the road
And be a friend to man.
Let me live in a house by the side of the road
Where the race of men go by-
The men who are good and the men who are bad,
As good and as bad as I.
I would not sit in the scorner's seat
Nor hurl the cynic's ban-
Let me live in a house by the side of the road
And be a friend to man.
I see from my house by the side of the road
By the side of the highway of life,
The men who press with the ardor of hope,
The men who are faint with the strife,
But I turn not away from their smiles and tears,
Both parts of an infinite plan-
Let me live in a house by the side of the road
And be a friend to man.
I know there are brook-gladdened meadows ahead,
And mountains of wearisome height;
That the road passes on through the long afternoon
And stretches away to the night.
And still I rejoice when the travelers rejoice
And weep with the strangers that moan,
Nor live in my house by the side of the road
Like a man who dwells alone.
Let me live in my house by the side of the road,
Where the race of men go by-
They are good, they are bad, they are weak, they are strong,
Wise, foolish - so am I.
Then why should I sit in the scorner's seat,
Or hurl the cynic's ban?
Let me live in my house by the side of the road
And be a friend to man.
They are good, they are bad, they are weak, they are strong,
Wise, foolish - so am I.
Then why should I sit in the scorner's seat,
Or hurl the cynic's ban?
Let me live in my house by the side of the road
And be a friend to man.
That whole poem was freaking wonderful, but this in particular rings profound to me, and we could probably all do much worse than if we chose this as our individual motto! Thank you for sharing this, kkeelycpa (pleased to make your acquaintance!)
in 2009 I was in the middle of an angry ExMo stage. ... definitely someone who was "cold, wet, battered and bruised, hungry" -- and angry. Very angry.
...
I've noticed that I still come by, sometimes daily, but I don't "need" it like I used to. My drop-in is usually very short, to read a thread or two, and then I move on with my day.
...
I had already been mentally out by the time I joined up here on PostMo, but I needed to process through several issues, including how to renegotiate a life in a TBM family.
... I've opened myself up (something I think PostMo helped me do) to some people I can truly call friends and found that some that I would have categorized as "TBM" at first glance are really NOMs or liberal Mormons. They do Mormonism on their own terms and in their own way.
Sometimes I'm convinced you're practically living my life about 3 months ahead of me...
I've been one of those travelers..I came at a time that I really needed the support and friendly advice...and I found it. I had a few conversations, had many questions answered, put my 2 cents in a few times, and I went back to my journey feeling empowered, secure, and ready to take on ANY religion..I've learned ways to cope with Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods without offending but firmly enough that they don't preach to me anymore. I'm secure in my relationship with GOD (as I DO believe there is one). I'm no longer hurt, scared, nor do I feel guilty. PostMo helped me in many ways and I thank each and every one of you! I drift in every now and then, just to see that there is still a fire going..and GROWING! Thank you so much! I will be back (that's a promise...or threat...lol..haven't decided yet) but I've grown and have become at peace with my choice...do I advertise my decision?? NO WAY..but I'm happy.......
I'm one of those travelers who stumbled in very, very confused, but for some reason quickly stumbled back out, just as confused.
Checking back after a long absence, I noticed this thread and was pleased with the concept and grateful for the various inn's on the road that provide the empathy, experience and a haven for the likes of me as I first crossed your threshold.
Have ya got a beer for one of those clean glasses, maybe some room at the fire? Heck, maybe I should pull up a chair for awhile.
rockslider
OrdinanceWorker:
I'm one of those travelers who stumbled in very, very confused, but for some reason quickly stumbled back out, just as confused.
Checking back after a long absence, I noticed this thread and was pleased with the concept and grateful for the various inn's on the road that provide the empathy, experience and a haven for the likes of me as I first crossed your threshold.
Have ya got a beer for one of those clean glasses, maybe some room at the fire? Heck, maybe I should pull up a chair for awhile.
rockslider
::Handing a beer out of the ice cooler to a fellow traveller.::
Take a load off. Get some warmth near the fire, Toss back a couple of beers. Welcome back.
OrdinanceWorker:
I'm one of those travelers who stumbled in very, very confused, but for some reason quickly stumbled back out, just as confused.
Checking back after a long absence, I noticed this thread and was pleased with the concept and grateful for the various inn's on the road that provide the empathy, experience and a haven for the likes of me as I first crossed your threshold.
Have ya got a beer for one of those clean glasses, maybe some room at the fire? Heck, maybe I should pull up a chair for awhile.
rockslider
Hey OW. We shared a fire at the Inn before. Welcome back. How are you doing?
