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FAIR is a joke, right?  A spoof?  Sarcastic?
 
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I have never really read anything from FAIR or FARMS etc.  I just haven't been interested.  However, tonight I decided to look up FAIR and start reading a bit.

 

The first link I clicked on was the Fair wiki (http://en.fairmormon.org/Main_Page).

 

From there I cliked on the very first link given - a link comparing the BOM to View of the Hebrews (http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/View_of_the_Hebrews).

 

Seriously?

 

Their "proof" that the BOM isn't a copy of VotH is a total joke.  At one point I literally laughed out loud.

 

Are you sure the people over at FAIR really aren't anit-mormons cloaked in sheeps cloathing trying to make it seem like they are defending the LDS faith when in reality they just want to get the real facts out there to make people see the church for the fraud that it really is?

 

Obviously I don't really think that.  I know they are honestly trying to defend, but really?  This just is laughable. 

 

For example, the one that really made me laugh was included in the chart called

"Parallels" that aren't

 

It says, "Many of the "parallels" that are discussed are not actually parallels at all once they are fully examined:"

 

...and then one of the lines in the chart says:

 

Both speak of:      View of the Hebrews                     Book of Mormon

 

...colonists spread out to fill the entire land... ...from the North to the South. ...from the South to the North.

 

 

 OMG, I'm SOLD!  I better go repent.  I now know that I was wrong and that the church is true and isn't a fraud!  Thank you FAIR for clearing this up for me!!!  If I'd only known then what I now know - that they OBVIOUSLY aren't the same book b/c VofH says the colonists spread from the North to the South YET the BOM says they spread from the South to the North!!  Joseph Smith could have NEVER switched those.  He was just a stupid young farm boy after all.  Man, with evidence this compelling over at FAIR, I can't wait to read more and gain my testimonkey of TSCC back.  My mustard seed is small, but it's already started growing again.

 

Thanks FAIR.  You saved me from myself.

 

 

 

 

     

 

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Would ancient Hebrews (600 BC) even have the concept of North and South?  I'm not convinced a people that needed a magic gold ball to navigate would have understood the use of an actual compass and navigation by the stars.

 

Interestingly, Native Americans (and Mesoamericans) did have a cardinal direction concept based on colors and hues of corn (differing by tribe).  Check it out here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_direction

 

Why again does the Book of Mormon sound more like a book about Europeans than Native Americans?  We have a whole book supposedly written by many people who all managed to leave out any hint of their actual culture.  

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Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon were the "Jules Verne" of their time...
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Apologetics are driving people out of the church on a daily basis - they were the final evidence to me that the church couldn't possibly be true.   Reading the FARMS review of In Sacred Loneliness (before I'd even read the booK) was when I had my "I'm done" moment. 

 

FAIR is just the same thing without the academic backing.  Their answers are beyond insane, half the time they don't even address the point! 

 

Thanks apologists!

 

 

 
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delete double post

 
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Who needs anti-Mormons when you have FARMS and FAIR?
 
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Gilgal:
Who needs anti-Mormons when you have FARMS and FAIR?

 

 Well, ummmm, hrrrmmmmmm.....

 

You don't.

 

 

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The only time FAIR is useful to the church is when someone asks a question and the apologists can say- don't worry, the answer is here (link to fair article) and the questioner is pacified and too complacent to even look.  It is the looking that causes all the trouble. 

 

In another thread discussing FAIR/FARMS vs. Sunstone/Dialogue Dr. Faustus said:

 

I am not sure that F&F are equally successful.  They insult the members of the outer circle by suggesting that orthodoxy is credible and that anyone who doubts the Church or its doctrines is mentally or spiritually inferior.  In addition, they propound theories that are obviously--no, stunningly--silly.  How many times have we heard that someone went to the apologists either out of interest or because of some doubts, read too much nonsense, and then lost faith completely?  The combination of condescension and lack of substance is deadly when dealing with people who have strong reservations. 

 So there's the hypothesis.  S&D are more successful at keeping people in the broader circle because they are relatively honest and nurture a sense of community.  F&F are less helpful to the Church because they insult people's intelligence and show little tolerance of dissent.  Packer and the reactionaries should like F&F not because their work is an effective defense against criticism but because they inadvertently drive the semi-orthodox into the wilderness and leave only the "pure" believers inside the citadel.

 
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Yeah, I read some FAIR/FARMS stuff when I was trying to stay in the church. Reading that stuff just sealed the deal for me. I couldn't believe that was the best the church could offer. I think having people read the apologetics is a good way to get them to leave. If I were in charge of he church, I'd eliminate FAIR and FARMS right now. They do nothing but hurt the credibility of the church.
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The way to make sense of the scientific inquiry, the archaelogical data, the scrutiny, the writing and all other smarty pants offerings at FAIR, FARMS, SHIELDS, and other LDS Apologist sites is to keep this single equation in mind.

 

1 + a banana = a rock this color (hold hands in bowl shape)

 

If you can get that one correct the rest just falls into place.

 

D.C.Petersen always has this smirk on his face (rather Mark Hoffmanish smirk) where I suspect even though he's a corrupt corpulent charletan, he is quite intelligent, but uses it for evil purposes. I think he knows darn well that he's pulling the wool over the eyes of the silly LDS sheep and they lap his stuff up like (in the words of our troll BOMC) like dogs eat their own xxxx. I would have written shit, but that's because I'm an apostate and can now spell whole cuss words.

 

Here's a paragraph from one of D.C. Petersens essays on proof of a place somewhere on the coast of Saudi Arabia, or somewhere nearby, (maybe within a 10,000 mile radius) that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lehi and his family found the stuff they needed to build a boat and sail to the America's, which back then would have been the Lehi-ahs.

 

 “And I could write back to him, “I know that such places exist: in fact, as I’m writing to you, right above my computer I have a poster picture of the very place, or a place very much like it.” Well he can’t really refute that because, of course, one picture is worth a thousand words, and I have a picture of it. It is true that places like this exist. “

 There you have it folks, irrefutable proof that because D.C. Petersen has a photo of something over his desk, then the place exists. PHOTOS DON'T LIE. Well, except if they're mislabeled, photoshopped, misdated, taken in a place not related to the question at hand, ....ok, photos might NOT be proof, but only to the vile sinners who like to drink coffee and sin and fornicate and sin a lot. And fornicate.

 

In the words of Daniel C. Petersen, (a man known to “premature regularization” as well as premature re-dactifuckation) regarding an obscure reference to the masculine form of the name Alma and why Joseph Smith got it right in the BOM, “And yet it is there. It’s been seen, it’s been examined and it’s still under investigation. That, I think, is a remarkable thing, a shot in the dark that hits it’s target, a target that Joseph didn’t even know he was aiming at. Once again, he’s vindicated by developments that came about after his career had ended, long after his life ended.”If a fraud had pulled this off, if I had pulled this off, I would have been very proud of it. I would have pointed to it and said, “See how clever I am that I put this in”But no one recognized it until just a few years ago really, and yet it’s there-again, another authentic ancient detail.
 

In regards to some chiasmus that he stretches and stretches and finally connects a lower case letter u to some other work from some other time, therefore validating the BOM,
I know of one person at UCLA, a very distinguished Eastern European Scholar of Semitic languages, who read a book that Jack Welch put together called Chiasmas in Antiquity. He was talking about it to his class…he didn’t know that there was anyone in the class who was LDS …and in a very thoughtful voice, he said, “Well, it is a very interesting book. This chapter on the Book of Mormon is remarkable. I don’t know what to make of it.” That I think has been the response of critics for a long, long time. They just don’t know what to make of it and it is a remarkable thing.

It is a remarkable thing and I challenge critics of the Book of Mormon to come up with any counterexplanation of this idea that it was produced by someone
…and there I lose the quote but you get the gist of it.

 

One thing I noticed right away on the Mormon.net site was how tedious and boring and long winded each testimony is, and works to lull the reader into sleepmode, just like the LDS scriptures or conference talks. I know it sounds paranoid but I think they do that on purpose. If they can create a sort of dead zone zombie response in the reader they don't have to even worry about what they actually say or the validity of the claim. It's so laborious to dig through it for anything of value that most just browse, confirm in their mind that that much text must be validation, and move on.

It was when I printed out D.C. Petersen's actual article and went through it with a fine tooth comb that I found such innane gems and blatant nonsense .
I think he counts on the reality that most people don't actually read his stuff. He can get away with pure bullshit because no one is fact checking him or calling him out on anything.

D.C.Petersen is sitting back in his barkalounger laughing his lumpy white arse off at the gullability of his followers. I can see the smirk in his eyes and read it between the lines. He thinks (rightfully so) that the dear readers of his tripe are too stupid to follow up. They prove him correct over and over and he keeps getting away with it.

 

Here's Daniel C. Petersens own final summation of his testimony in his own words,

A famous and somewhat enigmatic fragment from the ancient Greek poet Archilochus says that “The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.” It is my professional obligation, as a scholar, to know many things. (I wish I knew many more than I do.) But it has been the most fulfilling joy of my life to know one big and very important thing. The nineteenth-century zoologist Ernst Haeckel is reported to have said that, if he could have just one question definitively answered, it would be, Is the universe friendly? My experience, my reason, and the teachings of modern prophets and apostles all concur in testifying that it is.

If that don't beat all!! He says nothing with such conviction and eloquence that the reader is left scratching their head and looking around to see if the emperor really was naked. My experience, my reason, and the teachings of modern prophets and apostles all concur in testifying that he is.

Daniel C. Petersen after many long hard hours at work on FAIR and Mormon Scholars Testify where he presents the finest golden robes hand hewn by the talented weavers and peers in the esteemed Apologist network for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 
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Apologetics are driving people out of the church on a daily basis -
It is interesting that the church hasn't "respectfully asked" that FAIR and FARMS shut down their sites...for that very reason.
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Well I may be just an idiot, but Farms and Fair helped me stay in the church 10 years longer than I would have otherwise. Mostly it was because of one thing.... I wanted it to be true because it would cause way too much chaos in my life if it wasn't. So I spent years on the Fair board, every time I discovered some problematic piece of history or information. All I was looking for was one small chance that there was a good explanation.

 

No DNA? Well maybe just maybe we just haven't found it yet. Worldwide Flood? Well maybe just maybe it was just a local one. Polygamy? Blacks? Gays? Women? Book of Abraham? Book of Mormon? All it took for me was one explanation, even if it was really pretty outlandish, and I could put that item temporarily on my shelf. I knew the answers were ridiculous, but I couldn't admit that to myself because of the implications. 

 

Obviously it didn't last forever. But I think Fair and Farms "help" people who were just like me. They want it to be true and are searching for cover. It might be ridiculous that the View of the Hebrews says North to South, and the BOM says South to North, but that is often enough when you are desperately trying to find answers. It is when you are an honest and objective seeker of truth that the whole thing falls apart. 

 
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In the newest edition of D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View - a piece of scholarship which IS highly praised and valued by the peer-reviewing academic community - he takes up the issue of FARMS and FAIR with a veangance, not least because he was excommunicated for his own book and has been attacked by F&F himself.

 

In his response in the intro, and throughout the book, he utterly dismantles the whole facade of F&F, showing with piles of evidence and direct quotation that not only are these two apologetic organisations ludicrous and like you say almost a hilarious spoof as academic institutes go, but moreover that they have often been downright dishonest and disingenuous.

 

For instance, he shows how they used shoddy and deliberately evasive scholarship regarding the book collections in the Manchester Public library of Joseph Smith's era to 'prove' that none of the books potentially available to JS could have been used as base material for either the BoM or all the rest of his 'ideas'. The - I think it was FARMs - scholars also suggested that it was unlikely JS would have had access to the library books anyway, attempting to fuel this myth that JS was an unlettered farm boy.

 

To the contrary, Quinn presents a mindblowing array of evidence to show that 1) upstate New York was awash with books, a lot of them books up to a hundred years old offloaded from the European book market, a lot of them arcane books on magic, some of them containing material that is clearly repeated in JS's stories about angels visiting him etc. 2) upstate New York was not a cultural backwater - as Mormon apologists want members to believe - and that even farmers eagerly bought and read quite sophisticated reading material. 3) the Smith family was clearly a very, very bookish family.

 

All this info could easily have been dug up by FARMS and FAIR scholars if they'd wanted to. In fact, it seems as though they actually were perfectly aware of it and deliberately - in the most dishonest and un-scholarly fashion - sought to conceal it.

 

They're not only a joke as academics and incoherent as apologists. They're actually more or less liars.

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When I was TBM, I was actually pretty impressed with them.  Or, more accurately, I was one of those members who was impressed by the EXISTENCE of them.  It was enough to know that guys with University credentials were on the case; it didn't really matter to me what they came up with.
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I can absolutely say that FARMS and FAIR were the final straws for me as well.

 

After I read Mormon Origins, I might have sat and thought and pondered and wondered.  If I had read something like rough stone rolling first I might still be in the church.

 

But I turned to FAIR and FARMS and read 6 or 7 counter articles to Mormon Origins and those 6 or 7 documents were the true culprits of my exit.   I have found a ton of reasons and evidence to be out since.  BUt as I read those cynical, convoluted, ad hominem, backwards reasoned, inane, idiotic pieces of crap.......that was the end of the end.  I was done.  I did not feel done after reading mormon origins by any means.  I did after reading those.

 

Any time I recommend Mormon Origins to someone, I recommend the same 5 counter arguments to it from FAIR/FARMS.  I figure that combination of reading should be enough for any mo to get real.

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Daniel C. Petersen after many long hard hours at work on FAIR and Mormon Scholars Testify where he presents the finest golden robes hand hewn by the talented weavers and peers in the esteemed Apologist network for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

OK Dahli,

 

I have a testiphony that this is Daniel C Petersen.  As I am writing to you I have this picture above my computer  (it is not a poster picture.  I think you can guess why) of Daniel C. Petersen or someone very, very much like Daniel C. Petersen.  This proves that he exists.  Of course one picture is worth a thousand words and I have a picture of him.  It is true that people like Daniel C. Petersen exist and that what he says is true.   Why?  Because I have this picture.

 

 

 

My apologies for reposting the picture.

 

BTW, What do they pay over there (FAIR/FARMS)?  I could use some extra cash.

 

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FARMS, SHIELDS, FAIR, and Mormon Scholars Testifuckation probably don't pay squat but they help the bloated gas bags of Mormon scholarship sell their glossy photo books like "Images of Ancient America-Visualizing Book of Mormon Life" by John L. Sorenson. Many other silly convoluted books of fakearology sell like hotcakes to the silly LDS who need visual proof of fantastic claims for their own testifuckation.

 

A picture or even a resin replica of an ancient Maya tree configuration confirms to the LDS that Lehi's dream of the Tree of Life was true, and even though they can't read the symbols, a trusted apologist describes it to them and therefore must be true.

 

The LDS sponsored cruises and trips to Central America are huge money makers for these folks at the apologist sites. They'll be the featured speaker on a cruise and give some very convoluted connection to the BOM claim and the Mayan sites, and then afterward is a book signing. The patrons are steered toward a big table where all the Apologists have stacks of glossy shiny coffee table books for sale and the chance to have one of their signatures adds authenticity to the bullshit inside.

 

I could sign a kleenex that I blew my nose in and it would be equally valuable, but the shiny stuff wouldn't be photo paper. Anyone interested in my signature should send $49.95 in cash or to my Pay Pal acct.. Hurry, PM me before my cold is over and I run out of shiny stuff. And that's not all!! I will also send you a handy-dandy Y2K compliant square of un-used TP, for your own archaeological digging.

 

 

 
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Who is the Author of Mormon Origins?
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Not participating in the madness… just observing!

 
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Curmudgeon:
Who is the Author of Mormon Origins?

 

Grant Palmer....great read.

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Cogito Ergo Sum = “I think, therefore I am.” (Descartes) The latin word “Cogito” is also a play on words. Co=together, Gito=shake….a second meaning of the phrase is, “I shake things up, therefore I am.” (Greary.)

 
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Zenock-Knock:
When I was TBM, I was actually pretty impressed with them.  Or, more accurately, I was one of those members who was impressed by the EXISTENCE of them.  It was enough to know that guys with University credentials were on the case; it didn't really matter to me what they came up with.

 

As you and Daria and others point out, I think the value of F&F to the church is their very existence.  Just knowing there are "scholarly" organizations who have heard all the questions and criticisms and have answers for every single one of them, is often (usually?) enough for many people.  They aren't interested in and/or don't feel qualified to analyze the issues on their own.   

 

I don't know if FAIR or FARMS or equivalents existed in the pre-internet days, but the same situation existed with mormon scholars and books.  You didn't have to read the book, you just had to know the book existed, and in it, Elder So-and-so had addressed all the concerns and criticisms, thank-you-very-much. 

 

I wonder at how I could have just accepted those responses as I did, but then again, even today I don't feel qualified enough to analyze the data on my own for global climate change or 9/11 conspiricies or a hundred other topics.  We all rely on the experts for something or other.  It's just a shame that the F&F "experts" are getting away with what they do, when the shoddiness of their work could be so easily exposed.  But the church, I think, counts on the fact that most members won't get that far into it.  It's enough for them to know *somebody* has figured out all the answers. 

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Mormon Questioner:

Well I may be just an idiot, but Farms and Fair helped me stay in the church 10 years longer than I would have otherwise. Mostly it was because of one thing.... I wanted it to be true because it would cause way too much chaos in my life if it wasn't. So I spent years on the Fair board, every time I discovered some problematic piece of history or information. All I was looking for was one small chance that there was a good explanation.

 

No DNA? Well maybe just maybe we just haven't found it yet. Worldwide Flood? Well maybe just maybe it was just a local one. Polygamy? Blacks? Gays? Women? Book of Abraham? Book of Mormon? All it took for me was one explanation, even if it was really pretty outlandish, and I could put that item temporarily on my shelf. I knew the answers were ridiculous, but I couldn't admit that to myself because of the implications. 

 

Obviously it didn't last forever. But I think Fair and Farms "help" people who were just like me. They want it to be true and are searching for cover. It might be ridiculous that the View of the Hebrews says North to South, and the BOM says South to North, but that is often enough when you are desperately trying to find answers. It is when you are an honest and objective seeker of truth that the whole thing falls apart. 

 

I was the same way for a while. In the face of uncertainty, the simple fact that there was an "explanation" was enough for me.

 

And as to the title, saying FAIR is a joke is accurate, one that FAIR is unwittingly participating in. . .  the joke is on them!

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The Book of Mormon would have made great fodder for a comic book series. If taken as super-hero tales of good vs evil, super powers, fantastic journeys, etc. it could be lots of fun. Its full of war, weapons, manly muscly guys who come in and save the day. Nephi was SUPERMAN and the Lamanites were just the evil Lex Luthers.

 

If anything could be salvaged from that silly piece of "chloroform in print" it could be the adventure stories where one man slays a whole army with the jawbone of an ass or stands up to the thousands and inspires the evil right out of them.

 

 
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Dahli-mama:

FARMS, SHIELDS, FAIR, and Mormon Scholars Testifuckation probably don't pay squat but they help the bloated gas bags of Mormon scholarship sell their glossy photo books like "Images of Ancient America-Visualizing Book of Mormon Life" by John L. Sorenson. Many other silly convoluted books of fakearology sell like hotcakes to the silly LDS who need visual proof of fantastic claims for their own testifuckation.


OldSoul posted this link on another thread, but it applies here too.  This guy hilariously shreds Sorenson's An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, calling him "one of the most imaginative of the apologists".  Even the end-notes are funny.....unless you're an apologist, then you'd be forced to see what joke the state of your academic career is in.

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Most of the time in regards to scholarly work, not just LDS but anything scholarly I feel ike the little child at the parade and in my naivity I call out that the emperor is naked, but the people around me think I'm just a child. WHen it turns out that the emperor REALLY IS NAKED I feel a bit vindicated. My mediocre intellect and even more mediocre education have held me back from comprehending a lot of what goes on in those hallowed halls of higher education, but common sense has served me very well. I also grew up around farm animals and know bullshit when I step in it.

 

Trying to decipher the writings of the FARMS guys set my poor fluffy headed noggin into a spin because they use such obscure references, huge words that I suspect are made up, not like my made up TESTIFUCKATION, but made up like Daniel C. Petersens bloviated stuff. Then they use the shell game of saying yes, maybe, no, and yes again, all in the same sentence so by the time you've struggled to the end you don't know your head from your ass.

 

They'll write paragraphs that suggest that if you don't understand what they described or stated, you're a dummy, not worthy of clarification, and probably a sinner who likes to fornicate (which I do but I'm married so we have to pretend we're not to make the fornication more exciting).

 

My mom is a wonderful human being but she wouldn't exactly register very high on an intellectual scale when it comes to triangulating information or processing complex data. She thinks I'm smart so she sends me books like "Images of Ancient America" thinking that the scholars or apologists will be able to reach me where her tender Faith based beliefs havent. I read their stuff with as critical an eye as I read political stuff, or anything and when I take it apart a bit, it is so full of crap that I can hardly give it even a modest reverence.

 

What I'd encourage anyone to do, especially my own children is to look and read and decipher for yourself. Don't trust me, don't trust the apologist, don't trust the scholars, leaders, prophets, or even the God's. Just look into it yourself. Dig dig and dig some more. Use the brain you were born with and see for yourself. If you come up with a different answer than I did then more power to you. But if you just assumed that what someone else told you is true and therefore don't need to bother to study it yourself, you deserve to be fooled.

 

 

 
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Dahli-mama:

Most of the time in regards to scholarly work, not just LDS but anything scholarly I feel ike the little child at the parade and in my naivity I call out that the emperor is naked, but the people around me think I'm just a child. WHen it turns out that the emperor REALLY IS NAKED I feel a bit vindicated. My mediocre intellect and even more mediocre education have held me back from comprehending a lot of what goes on in those hallowed halls of higher education, but common sense has served me very well. I also grew up around farm animals and know bullshit when I step in it.

 

Trying to decipher the writings of the FARMS guys set my poor fluffy headed noggin into a spin because they use such obscure references, huge words that I suspect are made up, not like my made up TESTIFUCKATION, but made up like Daniel C. Petersens bloviated stuff. Then they use the shell game of saying yes, maybe, no, and yes again, all in the same sentence so by the time you've struggled to the end you don't know your head from your ass.

They'll write paragraphs that suggest that if you don't understand what they described or stated, you're a dummy, not worthy of clarification, and probably a sinner who likes to fornicate (which I do but I'm married so we have to pretend we're not to make the fornication more exciting).

 

My mom is a wonderful human being but she wouldn't exactly register very high on an intellectual scale when it comes to triangulating information or processing complex data. She thinks I'm smart so she sends me books like "Images of Ancient America" thinking that the scholars or apologists will be able to reach me where her tender Faith based beliefs havent. I read their stuff with as critical an eye as I read political stuff, or anything and when I take it apart a bit, it is so full of crap that I can hardly give it even a modest reverence.

 

What I'd encourage anyone to do, especially my own children is to look and read and decipher for yourself. Don't trust me, don't trust the apologist, don't trust the scholars, leaders, prophets, or even the God's. Just look into it yourself. Dig dig and dig some more. Use the brain you were born with and see for yourself. If you come up with a different answer than I did then more power to you. But if you just assumed that what someone else told you is true and therefore don't need to bother to study it yourself, you deserve to be fooled.

 

 

 

OOOH!  OOOH!

 

I can tell one from the other!!!

 

One likes to be scratched...wait, that ain't it

One makes funny noises...nope. that ain't it, either...

One gets pimples...er, no, I guess that ain't it.

One has two cheeks...damn this ain't working out right...

One has bad breath...that can't be it...

 

Aw, maybe I did get confused by reading that religious stuff, after all... 

 

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YesIAmAPyr:
Dahli-mama: you don't know your head from your ass....

 

OOOH!  OOOH!

 

I can tell one from the other!!!

 

One likes to be scratched...wait, that ain't it

One makes funny noises...nope. that ain't it, either...

One gets pimples...er, no, I guess that ain't it.

One has two cheeks...damn this ain't working out right...

One has bad breath...that can't be it...

 

Aw, maybe I did get confused by reading that religious stuff, after all... 

 

 

You know, I look forward to being in hell with all you great people. And this begs the question, does the Mormon God know the difference?

 

 

 

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Those Mormon paintings using Gerard Butler as their "300" like model....um...hate to break it to 'em but....here he is...on his January vacation, 2010....um...pecks are gone.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1240442/Gerard-Butler-packs-paunch-Barbados-holiday-Spartan-muscles-distant-memory.html
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Can somebody explain this to me, maybe I have it all wrong.

 

From what I understand, FARMs does not represent the official stance on any LDS doctrine, but DCP is a paid BYU professor and head honcho at FARMS. Doesn't that create a conflict interest?

 

This creates questions in my mind.

 

1. Why would anyone listen to them if they don't officially represent the church?

2. Is DCP paid directly for FARMs work or is it indirectly through being a professor at BYU?

 

So basically the church doesn't want to make any mistakes in defending their position and doctrine, so they hide behind Fair and Farms. That way, if FAIR and FARMs are proven to be wrong, the church can easily distance itself from them and claim they are not related, but at the same time indirectly promotes F&F so the members have something to hang their hats on.

 

It's cowardly of the church that has a prophet that speaks with God, but he cannot come out and set the record straight on doctrine.

 

There may be a few people who are kept in the church by FARMS, but for the most part I think they do more harm than good. 

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Mormonkey:

Can somebody explain this to me, maybe I have it all wrong.

 

From what I understand, FARMs does not represent the official stance on any LDS doctrine, but DCP is a paid BYU professor and head honcho at FARMS. Doesn't that create a conflict interest?

 

This creates questions in my mind.

 

1. Why would anyone listen to them if they don't officially represent the church?

2. Is DCP paid directly for FARMs work or is it indirectly through being a professor at BYU?

 

So basically the church doesn't want to make any mistakes in defending their position and doctrine, so they hide behind Fair and Farms. That way, if FAIR and FARMs are proven to be wrong, the church can easily distance itself from them and claim they are not related, but at the same time indirectly promotes F&F so the members have something to hang their hats on.

 

It's cowardly of the church that has a prophet that speaks with God, but he cannot come out and set the record straight on doctrine.

 

There may be a few people who are kept in the church by FARMS, but for the most part I think they do more harm than good. 

 

 ITs some cia-paying-the-contras type horse doodoo.  Act indifferent and removed while paying paramilitaries to do your battles.

 

 

I think in this case, people are happy just to hear "Oh this was covered by farms I dont have to worry about it"   We all know that the #1 argument by uninformed apologists is... "Oh thats already been addressed and I have no reference...uh farms did it."   The content is irrelevant.  They could write song lyrics and title it, "Proof the kinderhook plate hoax never happened" and members would see the title....accept it as case closed never taking a peep.

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Chterrible:

 

 

I think in this case, people are happy just to hear "Oh this was covered by farms I dont have to worry about it"   We all know that the #1 argument by uninformed apologists is... "Oh thats already been addressed and I have no reference...uh farms did it."   The content is irrelevant.  They could write song lyrics and title it, "Proof the kinderhook plate hoax never happened" and members would see the title....accept it as case closed never taking a peep.

 I think this is the case very often.  When I left the church people asked me if I had read Hugh Nibley.  I have been out a while.  I said I would try reading Nibley but didn't because my issues with the church weren't based on things Nibley addressed.  As it turns out none of the the folks that recommended Nibley had read Nibley.  It was good enough for them to know that there are some real smart folks at BYU that have debunked the church's critics.   One person told me she could dismiss criticisms of the church because Nibley had an IQ of 160 and he has a testimony.

 

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Dahli-mama:

huge words that I suspect are made up, not like my made up TESTIFUCKATION,


 


 

Many thanks for expanding my vocabulary, I am always on the lookout for new and creative uses of this particular obscenity.

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mishelley:
Dahli-mama:

huge words that I suspect are made up, not like my made up TESTIFUCKATION,


 


 

Many thanks for expanding my vocabulary, I am always on the lookout for new and creative uses of this particular obscenity.

Mine too.  How do you pronounce "TESTIFUCKATION" Dahil-mama?  

 

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Well, I softly emphasize testes part but then put a punch in Fu-ck, and sort of drawl the ation part. It's a Utardian sort of nasally toned pro-nuns-eya-shun. I learned it in Sanpete where crayons are crans and We Wuz is tossed around like pepper on a steak. I could teach lessons but the rush of folks signing up to sound illiterate, inbred, and red-necked would overwhelm the system.
 
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CoExMo:

Daniel C. Petersen after many long hard hours at work on FAIR and Mormon Scholars Testify where he presents the finest golden robes hand hewn by the talented weavers and peers in the esteemed Apologist network for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

OK Dahli,

 

I have a testiphony that this is Daniel C Petersen. ...

 

 

 

My apologies for reposting the picture.

 

BTW, What do they pay over there (FAIR/FARMS)?  I could use some extra cash.

 

 

 Did you will notice that power sprayer gun on the wall? I guess the man has to wash his ass some how.

 
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Somewhere I saw a stick with a sea sponge on it and I learned that in Greek times men carried it around in war or whenever and used it to wipe the back side of the moon. Since there was no TP and finding just the right non-toxic leaf might require one to do some funny squat walking, I can see the value of such a thing, except after wiping my counter with a sponge I often consider them too disgusting to use again without putting them in the dishwasher or laundry. ---------Perhaps with the volumes of heft this man (not REALLY Daniel C. Petersen) needs an arm extender to reach the back side of his many mooned planetary configuration. Maybe he just goes down to the car wash once a week and sits on one of those industrial mechanic scooter things and gets the job done with all those floppy squishy car washy things.
 
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Dahli-mama:

The way to make sense of the scientific inquiry, the archaelogical data, the scrutiny, the writing and all other smarty pants offerings at FAIR, FARMS, SHIELDS, and other LDS Apologist sites is to keep this single equation in mind.

 

1 + a banana = a rock this color (hold hands in bowl shape)

 

If you can get that one correct the rest just falls into place.

 

D.C.Petersen always has this smirk on his face (rather Mark Hoffmanish smirk) where I suspect even though he's a corrupt corpulent charletan, he is quite intelligent, but uses it for evil purposes. I think he knows darn well that he's pulling the wool over the eyes of the silly LDS sheep and they lap his stuff up like (in the words of our troll BOMC) like dogs eat their own xxxx. I would have written shit, but that's because I'm an apostate and can now spell whole cuss words.

 

Here's a paragraph from one of D.C. Petersens essays on proof of a place somewhere on the coast of Saudi Arabia, or somewhere nearby, (maybe within a 10,000 mile radius) that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lehi and his family found the stuff they needed to build a boat and sail to the America's, which back then would have been the Lehi-ahs.

 

 “And I could write back to him, “I know that such places exist: in fact, as I’m writing to you, right above my computer I have a poster picture of the very place, or a place very much like it.” Well he can’t really refute that because, of course, one picture is worth a thousand words, and I have a picture of it. It is true that places like this exist. “

 There you have it folks, irrefutable proof that because D.C. Petersen has a photo of something over his desk, then the place exists. PHOTOS DON'T LIE. Well, except if they're mislabeled, photoshopped, misdated, taken in a place not related to the question at hand, ....ok, photos might NOT be proof, but only to the vile sinners who like to drink coffee and sin and fornicate and sin a lot. And fornicate.

 

In the words of Daniel C. Petersen, (a man known to “premature regularization” as well as premature re-dactifuckation) regarding an obscure reference to the masculine form of the name Alma and why Joseph Smith got it right in the BOM, “And yet it is there. It’s been seen, it’s been examined and it’s still under investigation. That, I think, is a remarkable thing, a shot in the dark that hits it’s target, a target that Joseph didn’t even know he was aiming at. Once again, he’s vindicated by developments that came about after his career had ended, long after his life ended.”If a fraud had pulled this off, if I had pulled this off, I would have been very proud of it. I would have pointed to it and said, “See how clever I am that I put this in”But no one recognized it until just a few years ago really, and yet it’s there-again, another authentic ancient detail.
 

In regards to some chiasmus that he stretches and stretches and finally connects a lower case letter u to some other work from some other time, therefore validating the BOM,
I know of one person at UCLA, a very distinguished Eastern European Scholar of Semitic languages, who read a book that Jack Welch put together called Chiasmas in Antiquity. He was talking about it to his class…he didn’t know that there was anyone in the class who was LDS …and in a very thoughtful voice, he said, “Well, it is a very interesting book. This chapter on the Book of Mormon is remarkable. I don’t know what to make of it.” That I think has been the response of critics for a long, long time. They just don’t know what to make of it and it is a remarkable thing.

It is a remarkablething and I challenge critics of the Book of Mormon to come up with any counterexplanation of this idea that it was produced by someone
…and there I lose the quote but you get the gist of it.

 

One thing I noticed right away on the Mormon.net site was how tedious and boring and long winded each testimony is, and works to lull the reader into sleepmode, just like the LDS scriptures or conference talks. I know it sounds paranoid but I think they do that on purpose. If they can create a sort of dead zone zombie response in the reader they don't have to even worry about what they actually say or the validity of the claim. It's so laborious to dig through it for anything of value that most just browse, confirm in their mind that that much text must be validation, and move on.

It was when I printed out D.C. Petersen's actual article and went through it with a fine tooth comb that I found such innane gems and blatant nonsense .
I think he counts on the reality that most people don't actually read his stuff. He can get away with pure bullshit because no one is fact checking him or calling him out on anything.

D.C.Petersen is sitting back in his barkalounger laughing his lumpy white arse off at the gullability of his followers. I can see the smirk in his eyes and read it between the lines. He thinks (rightfully so) that the dear readers of his tripe are too stupid to follow up. They prove him correct over and over and he keeps getting away with it.

 

Here's Daniel C. Petersens own final summation of his testimony in his own words,

A famous and somewhat enigmatic fragment from the ancient Greek poet Archilochus says that “The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.” It is my professional obligation, as a scholar, to know many things. (I wish I knew many more than I do.) But it has been the most fulfilling joy of my life to know one big and very important thing. The nineteenth-century zoologist Ernst Haeckel is reported to have said that, if he could have just one question definitively answered, it would be, Is the universe friendly? My experience, my reason, and the teachings of modern prophets and apostles all concur in testifying that it is.

If that don't beat all!! He says nothing with such conviction and eloquence that the reader is left scratching their head and looking around to see if the emperor really was naked. My experience, my reason, and the teachings of modern prophets and apostles all concur in testifying that he is.

Daniel C. Petersen after many long hard hours at work on FAIR and Mormon Scholars Testify where he presents the finest golden robes hand hewn by the talented weavers and peers in the esteemed Apologist network for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

Dahli-mama, I had to laugh at this one!  For those of you who haven't seen DCP lately, this picture is quite revealing!  It is my understanding that DCP has referred to those of us who voice an opinion here at postmormon.org as "little people!"  After looking at him recently, I must agree that I am a little person compared to him, but surprisingly chiseled for a 64 year old!  Dan is a man who claims to be inspired by the still small voice, yet I'm perplexed by his mammoth profile that is indicative of a man eating himself to death!  In fairness, I must question the source of his inspiration!  Apologists are innately obnoxious but they don't have to be dangerously over-weight! 

 

Daniel, even though we are on opposite sides of the mormonism issue, I wish you no ill will!  You have to be a total wreck!  Defending the indefensible as you do, can take a huge toll on any human being!  I personally don't know how you live with yourself?  Maybe if you told the truth for a change you could relax, go on a diet/get a grip on your compulsive eating disorder!  Be true to the truth/free yourself from potentially devastating health issues rooted in your chosen profession!  Defending a 19th century conman/sexual predator isn't worth your life!  victim        

 
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Aaarrggghhh, ladies and gents, I certainly didn't mean for any of my musings on D.C.Petersen to feed on his physical girth. I was more making fun of his fat headed bloviations. I would be a complete hypocrite if I pointed at someone and said, "You seem to have a problem with portion control".

 

Maybe the reality of the worthlessness of his lifes work has driven him to the comforts of Provo cuisine and comfort food. I know when I'm feeling down it's hard to resist eating my way to the bottom of a bag of Lays Chips (you can't eat just one!!).

 

Perhaps we should extend the hand of fellowship and try to help him out of his funk and offer him a job helping to clean up the mess he's helped make. Restitutionary weight loss. I think Jeff could take donations to get D. C. Petersen to stand as a billboard, sort of like that gal that sold advertizing space on her heaving bosoms. He could use all that girth for a huge Postmormon.org banner, "You are not alone". Given his mammoth "Presence" maybe we could even get more words across the breadth.

 

If the LDS church would subsidise the Cash for Klunkers program when they ask for any of the old BOMs, Journal of Discourses, and other publications that show their leaders to be bigots, liars, jackasses, philanderers, fools, etc. they could create a cottage industry for those whove lost their construction related jobs. Imagine a bevy of manly men with backhoes all lined up to dig pits to bury the dead doctrine.

 

Since some Utards seem so excited to import toxic waste into their state they could extend the dump out at Dugway and just make a special place for outdated Mormon doctrine. Who knows, maybe in time it would spawn into that nasty bacteria that likes to eat toxic sludge and the Mormon doctrine would eat the nuclear waste....wait...BAD IDEA!!

 

So now I'm envisioning the outdated Mormon Doctrine eating the nuclear waste and then growing into a huge toxic blob that comes back like in a 50s B movie to take over Toole!!!! Run for your lives!!! Mormon Doctrine in green glowing jello globs is oozing it's way to a town near you!!!

 

 

 

 
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The green jello that attacked the world (news at 11.) jello.jpg
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Dahli-mama:

Aaarrggghhh, ladies and gents, I certainly didn't mean for any of my musings on D.C.Petersen to feed on his physical girth. I was more making fun of his fat headed bloviations. I would be a complete hypocrite if I pointed at someone and said, "You seem to have a problem with portion control".

 

Maybe the reality of the worthlessness of his lifes work has driven him to the comforts of Provo cuisine and comfort food. I know when I'm feeling down it's hard to resist eating my way to the bottom of a bag of Lays Chips (you can't eat just one!!).

 

Perhaps we should extend the hand of fellowship and try to help him out of his funk and offer him a job helping to clean up the mess he's helped make. Restitutionary weight loss. I think Jeff could take donations to get D. C. Petersen to stand as a billboard, sort of like that gal that sold advertizing space on her heaving bosoms. He could use all that girth for a huge Postmormon.org banner, "You are not alone". Given his mammoth "Presence" maybe we could even get more words across the breadth.

 

If the LDS church would subsidise the Cash for Klunkers program when they ask for any of the old BOMs, Journal of Discourses, and other publications that show their leaders to be bigots, liars, jackasses, philanderers, fools, etc. they could create a cottage industry for those whove lost their construction related jobs. Imagine a bevy of manly men with backhoes all lined up to dig pits to bury the dead doctrine.

 

Since some Utards seem so excited to import toxic waste into their state they could extend the dump out at Dugway and just make a special place for outdated Mormon doctrine. Who knows, maybe in time it would spawn into that nasty bacteria that likes to eat toxic sludge and the Mormon doctrine would eat the nuclear waste....wait...BAD IDEA!!

 

So now I'm envisioning the outdated Mormon Doctrine eating the nuclear waste and then growing into a huge toxic blob that comes back like in a 50s B movie to take over Toole!!!! Run for your lives!!! Mormon Doctrine in green glowing jello globs is oozing it's way to a town near you!!!

 

 

 

 

Count me in, I'm willing to help in his rehabilitation!  Dan, feel free to contact me at your earliest convenience!  Agreeing to disagree concerning mormonism is quite acceptable, but I can't sit by silently as a preeminent mormon apologist like yourself - self-destructs!  victim 

 
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ClearThoughts:
Dahli-mama:

FARMS, SHIELDS, FAIR, and Mormon Scholars Testifuckation probably don't pay squat but they help the bloated gas bags of Mormon scholarship sell their glossy photo books like "Images of Ancient America-Visualizing Book of Mormon Life" by John L. Sorenson. Many other silly convoluted books of fakearology sell like hotcakes to the silly LDS who need visual proof of fantastic claims for their own testifuckation.


OldSoul posted this link on another thread, but it applies here too.  This guy hilariously shreds Sorenson's An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, calling him "one of the most imaginative of the apologists".  Even the end-notes are funny.....unless you're an apologist, then you'd be forced to see what joke the state of your academic career is in.

 

Clear thoughts, Thankyou for that link. That's a very entertaining article and I intend to go look up some stuff to see if he's correct (not that I have a reason to doubt him, but out of respect for the committment to find out for myself). The other links that led to more links were very interesting too. Now that I've become an Agnostititiitist, it's becoming more and more impossible to think I could ever go back to the dark ages of religious belief.

 

I still like Santa Claus and Jesus, the hippy type Jesus does appeal to me, but the rest of it doesn't make a lot of sense. Well, maybe leprachauns and tree fairies.  But the rest doesn't make sense....oh wait, I forgot unicorns. Those totally rock. And ligers, because like, I'm the best artist I know and I have numchuck skills, and big sleeves.

 
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Dahli-mama:

 

What I'd encourage anyone to do, especially my own children, is to look and read and decipher for yourself. Don't trust me, don't trust the apologist, don't trust the scholars, leaders, prophets, or even the Gods. Just look into it yourself. Dig, dig and dig some more. Use the brain you were born with and see for yourself. If you come up with a different answer than I did, then more power to you. But if you just assume that what someone else told you is true and therefore don't need to bother to study it yourself, you deserve to be fooled.

  

 

Hey, Dahli-mama

 

As always, your one-liners throughout this thread are hilarious!  Thanks for sharing your very funny sense of humor with us.  Always entertaining....

 

And the paragraph highlighted above is well put.  Clear.  Direct.  Easy to understand.  Solid advice. Thanks.

 

phelia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
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