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Discussion on facebook. I know I have read on this topic before but anyone have an answer to this inquiry. ?

 

 

ft 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, without delving into the mechanics of its translation, the Book of Mormon introduces to our language, before Champollion even translated Ancient Egyptian, numerous unknown Egyptian names that turn up later, e.g.:

Pacumeni
Pahoran
Paanchi
Manti
Corihor
Nephi (possibly a cognate of Nefer--meaning goodly)
and many others

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma. The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

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So with ZERO archeaological evidence and ZERO DNA evidence, are they now pinning the proof of the authenticity of the BoM on names?  Grasping at straws anyone?

 

Sorry I don't have an answer, but I will be eagerly awaiting info on this topic!

 
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FollowingTheSpirit:

So with ZERO archeaological evidence and ZERO DNA evidence, are they now pinning the proof of the authenticity of the BoM on names?  Grasping at straws anyone?

 

Sorry I don't have an answer, but I will be eagerly awaiting info on this topic!

 

The person that I am having this discussion with seems convinced that this is enough evidence to follow Smith. I am pretty sure there is an answer to this also.

 

ft

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free thinker:

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma. The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 Ammon isn't too hard, as that name was used in the bible.  I don't have answer for the other names, but am looking for one.

 

 
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free thinker:

 

 

Secondly, without delving into the mechanics of its translation, the Book of Mormon introduces to our language, before Champollion even translated Ancient Egyptian, numerous unknown Egyptian names that turn up later, e.g.:

Pacumeni
Pahoran
Paanchi
Manti
Corihor
Nephi (possibly a cognate of Nefer--meaning goodly)
and many others
 

I'd ask the person for something to substantiate the claim that the names are in fact Egyptian names too.  So far, his claim is just his say-so.  Nephi ~ Nefer ?  I don't think so.  Someone is reaching and I suspect that there's some reaching on the other names too.   The name's sound Native American to me.  I suspect that's where the ideas for the names came from.

 

free thinker:

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma.

I'd also ask for something to substantiate the above claim.  Alma was a popular name at the time Smith concocted the Book of Mormon.  The name was so popular that there's upstate New York has a town named Alma, that was first settle in 1833.  Smith didn't invent the name Sariah. It's been around for awhile too, and it's associated with the name Sarai, (also spelled Saray) the original name of Sarah, Abraham's wife, and it comes FROM BIBLICAL HEBREW. The claim that it's non-Biblical Hebrew is bullshit.

 

 

free thinker:
 
The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

Ammon might also be one of the most common names in the Bible. Check out this link

 

 

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Jeff Ricks:

 

  
free thinker:

 

 

Secondly, without delving into the mechanics of its translation, the Book of Mormon introduces to our language, before Champollion even translated Ancient Egyptian, numerous unknown Egyptian names that turn up later, e.g.:

Pacumeni
Pahoran
Paanchi
Manti
Corihor
Nephi (possibly a cognate of Nefer--meaning goodly)
and many others

I'd ask the person for something to substantiate the claim that the names are in fact Egyptian names too.  So far, his claim is just his say-so.  Nephi ~ Nefer ?  I don't think so.  Someone is reaching and I suspect that there's some reaching on the other names too.   The name's sound Native American to me.  I suspect that's where the ideas for the names came from.

 

free thinker:

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma.

I'd also ask for something to substantiate the above claim.  Alma was a popular name at the time Smith concocted the Book of Mormon.  The name was so popular that there's upstate New York has a town named Alma, that was first settle in 1833.  Smith didn't invent the name Sariah. It's been around for awhile too, and it's associated with the name Sarai, (also spelled Saray) the original name of Sarah, Abraham's wife, and it comes FROM BIBLICAL HEBREW. The claim that it's non-Biblical Hebrew is bullshit.

 

 

free thinker:
The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

Ammon might also be one of the most common names in the Bible. Check out this link

 

 

 

Thanks Jeff

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free thinker:
 

Thanks Jeff

 

 Anytime buddy! 

 

 

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I fail to see how having Egyptian names in the BoM would prove the veracity of the BoM.  Reasons:

- Lehi and family, as well as Zoram and family who joined them, were from Jerusalem, which means they would have been speaking Hebrew, not Egyptian.
- If Lehi and company ever did exist, it was ~700 years or more after the time of Moses, i.e., after the Jews left Egypt.  It seems unlikely that anyone in Lehi's or Zoram's family would have spoken Egyptian, much less passed the language or any part of it down to their children or their children's children.  What would the point be?  Note that many of these supposed Egyptian names appear in the BoM hundreds of years after the Nephites arrived in the Americas. 

- Based on the BoM description, the Jaredites would have had to come from Babylon, otherwise they wouldn't have known about the confounding of languages.  Not only this, but the implication with the Tower of Babel is that everyone spoke the same language (Adamic language) prior to the confounding.  Likelihood that the Adamic language was Egyptian?  Zero.  Likelihood that the brother of Jared and his family were given Egyptian as their language by god?  Also zero.

- Egyptian and Hebrew are related, but only distantly.  They were in separate branches of a language family.

 

The situation would be a lot different if the BoM was about a bunch of Egyptians.  It's not.  It's about literal members of the twelve tribes of Israel (if you believe that).

 
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They don't sound Egyptian to me, but then I am no expert. However, it doesn't prove anything if they are . Maybe Jospeh Smith knew something about Egyptian names.Big deal. Besides , the characters in the BofM are not supposed to be Egyptian, they are Hebrew, so why don't they have Hebrew names? That would make sense.
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If the veracity of the guy's testtimony is based upon the flimsy coincidence that Joseph's Myth made up some names that might sound vaguely similar to some Egyptian names (while ignoring all of the really serious problems with geography, botany, zoology, linguistics, genetics, archeology and metalurgy), then i doubt your argument to the contrary will do anything but convince him that you are his mortal enemy. Once somebody is completely invested in the bamboozle, to the extent they will devote themselves to perpetuating the bamboozle, cognitive dissonance makes it nearly impossible to get them to recognize the fact they've been bamboozled. If you really want to induce some serious cog dis, just ask the guy why nobody has ever discovered a single artifact to support Smith's claim that the Hill Cumorah in Upstate NY was the scene of two epic battles where a whole race of people were exterminated, while wearing steel armor and wielding steel swords?
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He wants to talk about BoM names? Let's see, the Smith family's evil landlord was named Lemuel. He has a brother Sam. Nephi is a bible name, or it was at least in the apocrypha, which was a part of the Smith family bible. Many of the names are used repeatedly, not just Ammon. And a bunch more are a syllable off from earlier names, like Moroni and Moronihah. My BS-o-meter goes off when he claims that any name spelled in Roman letters is a match for any Egyptian name. The languages probably don't even share the same sounds, so there's going to be imagination at play here. Confirmation bias, my friend.
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In one of my BYU linguistics courses one of my professors debunked a lot of this stuff. It has been a few years, and he gave us a few reasons why this does not work. I don't remember all of the reasons that he gave, but a big part of it is numbers. 

 

A handful of names that are similiar to Egyptian is not evidence enough. MOST names in the Book of Mormon would need to match up for it to be call linguistic evidence.  

 
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ElGuapo:
He wants to talk about BoM names? Let's see, the Smith family's evil landlord was named Lemuel. He has a brother Sam. Nephi is a bible name, or it was at least in the apocrypha, which was a part of the Smith family bible. Many of the names are used repeatedly, not just Ammon. And a bunch more are a syllable off from earlier names, like Moroni and Moronihah. My BS-o-meter goes off when he claims that any name spelled in Roman letters is a match for any Egyptian name. The languages probably don't even share the same sounds, so there's going to be imagination at play here. Confirmation bias, my friend.

 

you can't be serious.

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steve-o:

I fail to see how having Egyptian names in the BoM would prove the veracity of the BoM.  Reasons:

- Lehi and family, as well as Zoram and family who joined them, were from Jerusalem, which means they would have been speaking Hebrew, not Egyptian.
- If Lehi and company ever did exist, it was ~700 years or more after the time of Moses, i.e., after the Jews left Egypt.  It seems unlikely that anyone in Lehi's or Zoram's family would have spoken Egyptian, much less passed the language or any part of it down to their children or their children's children.  What would the point be?  Note that many of these supposed Egyptian names appear in the BoM hundreds of years after the Nephites arrived in the Americas. 

- Based on the BoM description, the Jaredites would have had to come from Babylon, otherwise they wouldn't have known about the confounding of languages.  Not only this, but the implication with the Tower of Babel is that everyone spoke the same language (Adamic language) prior to the confounding.  Likelihood that the Adamic language was Egyptian?  Zero.  Likelihood that the brother of Jared and his family were given Egyptian as their language by god?  Also zero.

- Egyptian and Hebrew are related, but only distantly.  They were in separate branches of a language family.

 

The situation would be a lot different if the BoM was about a bunch of Egyptians.  It's not.  It's about literal members of the twelve tribes of Israel (if you believe that).

 

I have to disagree a little.  If you could finds threads of Egyptian it would be evidence that the Book of Mormon did come from an ancient record like Joseph Smith claimed.  After all the claim is that the Book of Mormon was written in reformed Egyptian. 

 

I would agree though that even if the claim is true it is not substantial enough to say the book was actually a record of actual people.  

 

I think we have to step back a little when trying to prove or disprove a world view based on archaeological evidence and linguistic nuances.  These types of evidence only give us the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what day to day life was like for any ancient culture.  We also generally interpret the data based on how we live and understand the world today. 

 

Because we know relatively little about the ancient civilizations of the Americas, the evidence we do have can be manipulated either way and made to look like a smoking gun.  If Tolken had claimed to have translated the Lord of the Rings from ancient records, we could have done the same thing.  We humans have inhabited the globe for so long you are bond to find connections. 

 

The only physical evidence I would find compelling would be the Gold plates.  That is something we could really study and test.  But, conveniently, Joesph gave them back to the angel.  This has left us with three potential conclusions, either Joseph pulled the whole story out of his ass (sorry I meant hat, using a magic rock), he was a mentally ill genius and some how thought he really was translating from some ancient text (that is my favorite) or it is all true and God likes to dick around with us, by intentionally making things unclear.  Remember, life is a test.  

 

But do not fear, for God, being our loving father, knew it would be best if we learned to just trust that good feeling we get when some thing is right.  You know the one that told you, you would make a million dollars with Amway.  That feeling will never lead you astray.    

 
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It's interesting that three of them (Paanchi, Pahoran and Pacumeni) come from the same chapters in the BofM and were members of the same family. It sounds fishy to me. Perhaps Smith came upon something (book, document, whatever) that had these names on so he incorporated them.

Paanchi

Pahoran

Pacumeni

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Don't know why, but those names always seemed JS's pulling of Indian villages and tribes from his New York area roots.

 

Pequot

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Pauquaunuch

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ok so this does not address your names but it could be something to push back with for now.  from mormonthink:

 

Have any of the Egyptian names and terms identified by Joseph been verified as actually being Egyptian?

There are many Egyptian names given on Joseph's explanation of the 3 facsimiles as well as numerous names in Smith's Egyptian Book of Alphabet and Grammar.  Names such as Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, etc.  Despite some apologists claims to the contrary, none of these names have been found in any Egyptian documents.

Apologists claims

From LDS apologist Jeff Lindsay's site:

Further support for Joseph's interpretation of several elements in Facs. 1 comes from Daniel Peterson's article in the Jan. 1994 Ensign,

Ancient texts indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5-8), truly were worshipped in the ancient world, despite the fact that the Bible makes no mention of them. http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml

The above statement is very misleading.  Enough critics must have complained so fellow LDS apologist Kerry Shirts provided this response on another web page:

On the Names of the Four Canopic Jars in Facsimile 1
by Kerry A. Shirts

A Note of Explanation:

Critics have said the names of these figures are not Egyptian and therefore not authentic.

This article takes a closer look.
----------------------------------------------
We grant the critics a point in noting the four names of the four canopics
under the lion couch are not necessarily Egyptian names. But they are names
that are found in the ancient world, namely Egyptian combined with ancient
Syro-Canaanitish elements, and that is the point. This is not just
gibberish. Abraham is pointing out the ancient Egyptian customs to a
non-Egyptian audience of his in the Book of Abraham.
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/onthe.htm

So LDS apologist Kerry Shirts admits that they are not real Egyptian names so how does that possibly support Joseph's interpretation as claimed by Jeff Lindsay?  We have not been able to find any evidence that the four names mentioned by Joseph are real names at all. 

Note that neither Brother Lindsay nor Daniel Peterson provides any evidence to show how these ancient names could be derived and possibly be interpreted by anyone to support Joseph's claims.  If it made sense Lindsay would have simply shown evidence for these four names on his web site which would add to Joseph's credibility but he doesn't because it really doesn't support Joseph's claims when you analyze it.

The four names referred to by Joseph don't appear to be real ancient names at all unless you combine various parts of different words from different languages.  This is typical of some LDS apologist's efforts to find some sort of wild explanation to Joseph's translation of the facsimiles. 

Even if they were real names, although certainly not Egyptian, Joseph may have simply got them out of a dictionary or encyclopedia.  The only way this helps support Joseph's claims is if he identified the actual Egyptian names which was not known at the time but he failed to identify any Egyptian names.

You will note on Jeff Lindsay's site, he does not correct the original misleading statement.  So any researcher that goes to Lindsay's site will be under the impression that the four gods named by Joseph on facsimile 1 were somehow correctly identified by Joseph.

Had Joseph Smith actually translated the papyri, he would have referred to the figures as the four sons of Horus and given their actual names of Imset, Hapt, Qebe-senuwef and Duwa-mutef. This would have stood as a powerful witness to the truthfulness of the BOA and to Smith's prophetic role but Joseph gave incorrect non-Egyptian names.

ADMINISTRATOR NOTE:  We haven't been able to find the four names mentioned by Lindsay at all.  If anyone has specific references to support Daniel Peterson's claims, please send an email to us at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

 

 

I agree with asking this dude to verify that:

 

a.  these are  Egyptian names

b.  there was no other way to arrive at these names except by revelation.   you know like he patched these names together like the above examples or there always seems to be some book in a local library that could  easily have been used as source material etc.

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this might help more.  i don't think they are exact egyptian names:

 

The Book of Mormon as a Translation of an Underlying Language: Egyptian

Still many apologists, who may be termed liberal because they ignore nineteenth-century evidence about Smith's translation process, have concentrated on the very task that Welch's and Sorenson's arguments render beside the point. Hugh W. Nibley's project is perhaps the most moderate of the liberal approaches. He seeks to impose a modern translation methodology of an ancient underlying language onto Smith's production of the Book of Mormon in order to authenticate its [p.343] historicity. He takes at face value the Book of Mormon's declaration that it was written according to "the learning of the Jews" and "in the language of the Egyptians."20 Accordingly Nibley claims to perceive a few Egyptian phraseologies and grammatical peculiarities as parallels to the Book of Mormon (1967, 169ff). But he concentrates on thematic and phraseological parallels with Jewish and early Christian apocryphal literature (171-91) and on proper names in the Book of Mormon, for which he finds Egyptian and Semitic parallels (192-96; 1964, 230-42). This is how he makes his case for the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon. This essay focuses on his evidence based on proper names.21

Of a project such as his—discovering inter-language homonyms—Nibley observes, "there is no happier hunting-ground for the half-trained scholar than the world of words … in which the ear decides for itself whether or not a resemblance in sound is to be taken as accidental or significant." As a result, he states that he limits himself "to a few minimum claims which it would be very hard for anyone to dispute" (1964, 230-31). He thus magnifies the importance of his arguments.

Nibley proposes that Nephites "are quite aware" of historical events in ancient Egypt. When involved in the "same institutions" and the "same intrigues" as ancient Egyptian historical figures, they even take the same names (1964, 231). He singles out Korihor and Paanchi as examples (see also Nibley 1967, 192). His proposition has several problems.

First, he indicates that Nephites must have had a detailed knowledge of Egyptian history up to at least 400 years before Lehi left Jerusalem and somehow passed that knowledge on from generation to generation as part of their own history for at least another 530 years [p.344] until about 70 B.C.E. (1964, 232-33). But the only record they took with them from Palestine was the brass-plate Hebrew Bible. This record was no doubt similar to its Old World counterpart, which did not mention Egyptian events. At any rate, which happened: Did Paanchi's parents, having a prescience that their son would challenge Pahoran and Pacumeni for the chief judgeship, name him Paanchi in accordance with the long-previous event in Egypt that they had learned about from history? Or did Helaman (or even Mormon?), knowing that millennium-old history, give him the name Paanchi in order to evoke the original, millennium-old event in the mind of readers?

Second, Nibley declares that the "Egyptian Paanchi [p'-'nK] … was the son of one Kherihor [Hry-Hr]; Nibley here misrepresents H as 'Kh'… the High Priest of Ammon, who in a priestly plot set himself up as a rival of Pharoah himself, while his son Paanchi actually claimed the throne" (232). This, according to Nibley, "inaugurated the rule of priestcraft in Egypt" (233; see also Nibley 1952, 24-25). If that were so, the Nephites would have remembered ancient Egyptian history inaccurately. Contrary to Nibley's description, the ancient Egyptian Pa-ankh (Nibley's Paanchi) was not a son of Herihor (Nibley's Kherihor) (Wente 1979, x-xii; Kitchen 1986, 438). On the contrary, Herihor may have been Pa-ankh's son-in-law (Jansen-Winkeln 1992, 24-25). Moreover evidence indicates that Herihor was appointed High Priest of Amon by the king, Ramses XI (see Kitchen 1986, 250-51; Redford 1977, 1129ff). He did not inaugurate the rule of priestcraft in Egypt. Finally, the Book of Mormon Korihor was merely an ancient secular humanist—not a pretender to the Nephite throne.22

The original manuscript of the Book of Mormon indicates that the name Nibley identifies as Egyptianesque, Pahoran, Paanchi's father, is incorrect. It should have been Parhoron (Skousen 1992, 20). In any event Nibley's parallel for Pahoran with ancient Egyptian is tenuous. He asserts that "Pahoran reflects the Pales[tinian] Pahura, (for Eg[yptian] Pa-her-an, cf. Pa-her-y, 'the Syrian') which is 'reformed' Egyptian, i.e., a true Egyptian title, but altered in such a way as to adapt it to the Canaanite speech" (1952, 24).

In fact paHura (Pakhura) is merely the Babylonian pronunciation of the Egyptian p'-Kry (Pakhery; Ranke 1935, 116-17). How that represents "reformed Egyptian" is open to question. (Would the English word "French" in this context be considered "reformed French" for français?) There is no Egyptian "Pa-her-an" equivalent, and neither Pakhura nor Pakhery sounds like Pahoran. Nibley misrepresents the K (in p'-Kry) as "h" (which should be transliterated as "Kh"), thus [p.345] enabling him to create his parallel for Pahoran.

Elsewhere Nibley's ear "decides for itself" that the Egyptian H in Hy-shri represents a soft "c" to become parallel to Cezoram (1952, 25), the same H he already misrepresented as "Kh" in his transliteration of the Egyptian Hry-Hr.

In another instance Nibley proposes that Mormon is a transliteration of the Egyptian Mry-Imn (1964, 235-36; see also 1952, 25). He appeals to evidence from a fifth-century B.C. Jewish mercenary military garrison at Elephantine, which he wrongly characterizes as a colony of exiles fleeing Babylonian persecution (1952, 31-32; 1964, 233-34; see Albright 1968, 162; Smith 1984, 219). However, he fails to explain how Mry-Imn and similar theophoric names that represent Egyptian pagan gods were so popular among the pre-Christian Christian Nephites (see 1952, 27-31; 1964, 235-36), who lived an even higher law (2 Ne. 25:24-27) than their religious counterparts in Judah (among whom Egyptian theophoric personal names were far from customary). The Jews at Elephantine on the other hand were heterodox, having "intermarried with Egyptians and worshipped a number of deities besides Yahweh" (Smith 1984, 219), with the result that pagan theophoric names would be expected among them.

Nibley finds authentication for "deseret" as "honey bee" (Ether 2:3) in the red crown of Lower Egypt (1953, 184-89). He sees the Egyptian name of the red crown, dshrt, to be cognate with the Book of Mormon "deseret," because occasionally Egyptians used the red crown as a substitute word for the king of Lower Egypt, bity, "He of the bee." But "deseret" is not cognate with dshrt. The Egyptian word for both "bee" and "honey" was bit, and the name for the red crown comes from the Egyptian word for red, dshr, and has nothing to do with honey or bees. Undaunted Nibley speculates that dshrt was so sacred a word that Egyptians never used it in connection with bees, just as Jews never pronounced the tetragrammaton. Indeed he is "personally persuaded that the archaic and ritual designation of the bee was deseret, a 'word of power' too sacred to be entrusted to the vulgar, being one of the keys to 'the king's secret.'" That is why there would be no evidence for Nibley's speculation. His proof that the red crown "is the 'bee-crown' is … the long antenna that protrudes from the base of it." However, the red crown more likely represented part of the eye of Horus, as seen in Figure 7 (Riemschneider in Westendorf 1989, 43, 47).23 [p.346]


The Red and White Crowns of Egypt as the Eye of Horus

Clearly Nibley's "minimum claims" that "would be very hard for anyone to dispute" have little foundation. Surely his own caution about the "unbridled license of speculation and airy weakness of evidence … of the homemade philologist" is well founded. His attempts demonstrate that efforts to parallel Book of Mormon names with ancient Near Eastern names should be approached with skepticism.24 In fact Book of Mormon names can be accounted for in a much [p.347] simpler way. If those names which parallel or are derived from biblical names are set aside, Book of Mormon names are built out of relatively few stems, some used extensively, to which one or more affixes from eight classes have been added to create a new name. The process has been aptly labeled "affixation," defined as "the creation of new words by the addition of suffixes, prefixes, or infixes" (Forsberg 1990, 72). The Book of Mormon may be the only known source of a stem, or it may be a variation of a biblical name. The table below shows 70 possible stems with various affixes. These combinations generate 136 Book of Mormon names for which it is difficult to justify an ancient origin.

Table 1.

Book of Mormon Names Divided into Stems and Affexes

Click to enlarge Click to enlarge Click to enlarge Click to enlarge

taken from this:

 

New Approaches to the Book of Mormon:
Explorations in Critical Methodology

Brent Lee Metcalfe
editor

Signature Books
Salt Lake City, Utah
© 1993 Smith Research Associates.
All rights reserved.

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They say storms are right for summertime
Well, baby I’m long gone
Whatcha gonna do
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free thinker:

Discussion on facebook. I know I have read on this topic before but anyone have an answer to this inquiry. ?

 

 

ft 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, without delving into the mechanics of its translation, the Book of Mormon introduces to our language, before Champollion even translated Ancient Egyptian, numerous unknown Egyptian names that turn up later, e.g.:

Pacumeni
Pahoran
Paanchi
Manti
Corihor
Nephi (possibly a cognate of Nefer--meaning goodly)
and many others

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma. The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

 

 Wait...what?

 

Why would Egyptian names prove the BoM? It is a narrative of Israelites not Egyptians. It was merely recorded in "reformed" Egyptian but translated into English. So is this person saying that Hebrew names, written in Egyptian, translated into English and bear resemblance to Egyptian names proves the BoM? Why would the Nephites and Jaredites use Egyptian names, or why would God translate Hebrew names into Egyptian names? I'm confused.  

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Cuzco:
free thinker:

Discussion on facebook. I know I have read on this topic before but anyone have an answer to this inquiry. ?

 

 

ft 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, without delving into the mechanics of its translation, the Book of Mormon introduces to our language, before Champollion even translated Ancient Egyptian, numerous unknown Egyptian names that turn up later, e.g.:

Pacumeni
Pahoran
Paanchi
Manti
Corihor
Nephi (possibly a cognate of Nefer--meaning goodly)
and many others

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma. The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

 

 Wait...what?

 

Why would Egyptian names prove the BoM? It is a narrative of Israelites not Egyptians. It was merely recorded in "reformed" Egyptian but translated into English. So is this person saying that Hebrew names, written in Egyptian, translated into English and bear resemblance to Egyptian names proves the BoM? Why would the Nephites and Jaredites use Egyptian names, or why would God translate Hebrew names into Egyptian names? I'm confused.  

 

but.....but.......but.......um yeah, this is the point.  and read above and see how desperate Nibley is to make any sort of connection.  the whole thing is a joke.  FT you need to hammer this clown. I bet if you asked him to actually re state his point he could not do it because it is a preposterous connection of dots that should not be connected.

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They say storms are right for summertime
Well, baby I’m long gone
Whatcha gonna do
When you open your eyes?
It’s a brand new day and baby
No blue skies

 

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The long passage quoted above illustrates why Nibley simply is not a credible source.  It demonstrates result-oriented, academic dishonesty.  
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
The long passage quoted above illustrates why Nibley simply is not a credible source.  It demonstrates result-oriented, academic dishonesty.  

 

Indeed.  And the dude represents your typical tbm who just takes nibley apologetic crap and just passes it along like it is an actual fact.  all they needed to do was take 10 seconds on google to find out how off base he is.

 

those 10 seconds may as well be 10 miles to a tbm because they are never going to take the time.

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And tear the stars out of the sky
You don’t need me anymore
They say storms are right for summertime
Well, baby I’m long gone
Whatcha gonna do
When you open your eyes?
It’s a brand new day and baby
No blue skies

 

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free thinker:

Discussion on facebook. I know I have read on this topic before but anyone have an answer to this inquiry. ?

 

 

ft 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, without delving into the mechanics of its translation, the Book of Mormon introduces to our language, before Champollion even translated Ancient Egyptian, numerous unknown Egyptian names that turn up later, e.g.:

Pacumeni
Pahoran
Paanchi
Manti
Corihor
Nephi (possibly a cognate of Nefer--meaning goodly)
and many others

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma. The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

 

 I would delete him, he's an idiot.

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In Carl Sagan's book Cosmic Connection, he talks about the public's fascination with "ancient aliens," and he makes a comment about supporters and their "evidence," which I think applies to this topic as well.  He states  "These artifacts are, in fact, psychological projective tests.  People can see in them what they wish.  There is nothing to prevent anyone from seeing signs of past extraterrestrial evidence all about him.  But to a person with an even mildly skeptical mind, the evidence is unconvincing."

 

Now, I know this thread isn't about ancient aliens, nor do I want to turn it into one, but the idea that people do this type of thing all the time, to simply prove to themselves they are right (cog dis alive and kicking), is interesting.   Grasping for straws that some name might sorta kinda be like a name elsewhere, and so the morg just MUST to be true is ridiculous.  If they really believe in their religion, why do they feel the need to defend it all?  But they spend millions of dollars every year doing just that.

 

 I think Mark Twain summed it up best when he said:

 

"The book (B of M), is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration.  It is chloroform in print.  If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle -- keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.   If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper...the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason."

 

Yup, that about sums it up for me too, gotta love Mark Twain! 

 
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The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

 

Is he sure that Ammon is the most common name in the Book of Mormon? I did a quick search on lds.org and I could only find two people with that name. Isn't Nephi and Lehi at least as common, if not more common.

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Later Henry Jacobs gets called to serve a mission in Chicago, New York, Tennessee, and England.
I’m glad we don’t live in a time where the prophet can secretly marry your wife and call you on a mission.

 
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Henry Jacobs:
The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

 

Is he sure that Ammon is the most common name in the Book of Mormon? I did a quick search on lds.org and I could only find two people with that name. Isn't Nephi and Lehi at least as common, if not more common.

 

holy fetch.  how much more torture must we endure? 

 

ask this guy is it more likely that there is no way JS could have got the name Ammon on his own because of some amazing connection between the Egyptian name of Ammon and the Book of Mormon name Ammon OR.......

did JS simply get it from the bible:

Gen 19:37   And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same [is] the father of the Moabites unto this day.


Gen 19:38   And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same [is] the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

i mean ask this guy what his point is in saying that the most common name in egypt was Ammon (which would need to be backed up) and the most common name in the BofM is ammon.....i mean so freaking what, make him say what his point is.

 

you know if we did enough research we would probably find out that the general store where JS would go to get jawbreakers with Laura Ingles was call Ammons or something.

 

FT please bring the pain on this guy

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All I’m gonna do is cry
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And tear the stars out of the sky
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They say storms are right for summertime
Well, baby I’m long gone
Whatcha gonna do
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It’s a brand new day and baby
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How about greek names like Lachoneous?? I remember reading an article in an older ensign, back when they had a doctrine "q&a" section, the question was how a greek name would show up in an american civilization founded 600 years bc, really before the greeks were big. The answer from the ensign was this was just more proof, the greeks were known traders even back then, I call shenanigans, frankly, the world was a much smaller place back then were you rarely left your neighborhood let alone your city, Nephite and Lamanite civilization was founded by a few dozen people, how does an odd name like Lachoneous perpetuate itself for several hundred years with only a relative few family names being passed along each generation? Anyway, I say the stupid, imaginary friend names in the BOM cause more problems for TSCC than help.
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Lloyd Dobler:
ElGuapo:
He wants to talk about BoM names? Let's see, the Smith family's evil landlord was named Lemuel. He has a brother Sam. Nephi is a bible name, or it was at least in the apocrypha, which was a part of the Smith family bible. Many of the names are used repeatedly, not just Ammon. And a bunch more are a syllable off from earlier names, like Moroni and Moronihah. My BS-o-meter goes off when he claims that any name spelled in Roman letters is a match for any Egyptian name. The languages probably don't even share the same sounds, so there's going to be imagination at play here. Confirmation bias, my friend.

 

you can't be serious.

 

 His name was Lemuel Durfee. Bushman mentions him in Rough Stone Rolling.

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To newcomers Joycee and MoMan, I like the cut of your giblets. You've left me with little else to say except for this:

 

Give me any far-fetched well neigh impossible theory and I will find some bits of evidence to support it. Only when we put all the available evidence on the scales that we can draw some conclusions.

 

 

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Robby Sunshine:

To newcomers Joycee and MoMan, I like the cut of your giblets. You've left me with little else to say except for this:

 

Give me any far-fetched well neigh impossible theory and I will find some bits of evidence to support it. Only when we put all the available evidence on the scales that we can draw some conclusions.

 

 

 

  

 
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Joycee:
Robby Sunshine:

To newcomers Joycee and MoMan, I like the cut of your giblets. You've left me with little else to say except for this:

 

Give me any far-fetched well neigh impossible theory and I will find some bits of evidence to support it. Only when we put all the available evidence on the scales that we can draw some conclusions.

 

 

 

  

 Ditto

 

I don't know anything about Egyptian or Hebrew and can't say much about those names and their origins.  

But I know that for the church to be true, the BoM has to pass ALL the tests and overcome ALL the problems.  It's not my standard, it's the church's - either it's true or it's not.  FT's friend is hanging on to this one bit. 

Is he saying the BoM is 10% true? 

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Free Thinker, as long as your Facebook friend is on the topic of Egyptian, why don't you challenge the person to find a correlation between the Egyptian translation of the papyrus and the Book of Abraham. See how those name translations went.
 
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new.expositor:
How about greek names like Lachoneous?? I remember reading an article in an older ensign, back when they had a doctrine "q&a" section, the question was how a greek name would show up in an american civilization founded 600 years bc, really before the greeks were big. The answer from the ensign was this was just more proof, the greeks were known traders even back then, I call shenanigans, frankly, the world was a much smaller place back then were you rarely left your neighborhood let alone your city, Nephite and Lamanite civilization was founded by a few dozen people, how does an odd name like Lachoneous perpetuate itself for several hundred years with only a relative few family names being passed along each generation? Anyway, I say the stupid, imaginary friend names in the BOM cause more problems for TSCC than help.

 

I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up this point.  Isn't it peculiar that the Nephi in 3 Nephi has a brother named Timothy, which is also a greek name?  Where the heck does all of THAT fit in?  Yet another item on my huge shelf of doubts that came tumbling down...

 


Seriously, what more do you need?

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Quantum Id:
new.expositor:
How about greek names like Lachoneous?? I remember reading an article in an older ensign, back when they had a doctrine "q&a" section, the question was how a greek name would show up in an american civilization founded 600 years bc, really before the greeks were big. The answer from the ensign was this was just more proof, the greeks were known traders even back then, I call shenanigans, frankly, the world was a much smaller place back then were you rarely left your neighborhood let alone your city, Nephite and Lamanite civilization was founded by a few dozen people, how does an odd name like Lachoneous perpetuate itself for several hundred years with only a relative few family names being passed along each generation? Anyway, I say the stupid, imaginary friend names in the BOM cause more problems for TSCC than help.

 

I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up this point.  Isn't it peculiar that the Nephi in 3 Nephi has a brother named Timothy, which is also a greek name?  Where the heck does all of THAT fit in?  Yet another item on my huge shelf of doubts that came tumbling down...

 


Seriously, what more do you need?

In NT times, jews having Greek names wasn't unknown. Herod's sons were Archelaus and Philip. Several of the apostles had Greek names such as Andrew and Philip. I don't know whether that was the case in ealier times. I guess they could explain it away if Greek names were used at the time Lehi supposedly sailed.

 

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athena:
Quantum Id:
new.expositor:
How about greek names like Lachoneous?? I remember reading an article in an older ensign, back when they had a doctrine "q&a" section, the question was how a greek name would show up in an american civilization founded 600 years bc, really before the greeks were big. The answer from the ensign was this was just more proof, the greeks were known traders even back then, I call shenanigans, frankly, the world was a much smaller place back then were you rarely left your neighborhood let alone your city, Nephite and Lamanite civilization was founded by a few dozen people, how does an odd name like Lachoneous perpetuate itself for several hundred years with only a relative few family names being passed along each generation? Anyway, I say the stupid, imaginary friend names in the BOM cause more problems for TSCC than help.

 

I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up this point.  Isn't it peculiar that the Nephi in 3 Nephi has a brother named Timothy, which is also a greek name?  Where the heck does all of THAT fit in?  Yet another item on my huge shelf of doubts that came tumbling down...

 


Seriously, what more do you need?

In NT times, jews having Greek names wasn't unknown. Herod's sons were Archelaus and Philip. Several of the apostles had Greek names such as Andrew and Philip. I don't know whether that was the case in ealier times. I guess they could explain it away if Greek names were used at the time Lehi supposedly sailed.

 

 

It makes sense in the time frame of the Bible when Jesus was there, so it doesn't bother me in the New Testament.  However, Lehi left Jerusalem 600 years before Jesus was born.  I'm not sure if there was even a Greece or Rome at that time, but once he went over to the New World there shouldn't have been any way for them to consider naming their kids in another language like Greek.  I don't think there is another Timothy in the BoM at all until suddenly when Jesus appears after his resurrection. If Lehi brought Greek names with him, we should have seen some in the names of those he brought with him or the rising generation. 

 

It's a complete anachronism.  One of many.  It just goes to show that was using the bible to inspire his book.

 

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ElGuapo:
Lloyd Dobler:
ElGuapo:
He wants to talk about BoM names? Let's see, the Smith family's evil landlord was named Lemuel. He has a brother Sam. Nephi is a bible name, or it was at least in the apocrypha, which was a part of the Smith family bible. Many of the names are used repeatedly, not just Ammon. And a bunch more are a syllable off from earlier names, like Moroni and Moronihah. My BS-o-meter goes off when he claims that any name spelled in Roman letters is a match for any Egyptian name. The languages probably don't even share the same sounds, so there's going to be imagination at play here. Confirmation bias, my friend.

 

you can't be serious.

 

 His name was Lemuel Durfee. Bushman mentions him in Rough Stone Rolling.

 

Wow... that's amazing...

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Morgbot Not:
ElGuapo:
Lloyd Dobler:
ElGuapo:
He wants to talk about BoM names? Let's see, the Smith family's evil landlord was named Lemuel. He has a brother Sam. Nephi is a bible name, or it was at least in the apocrypha, which was a part of the Smith family bible. Many of the names are used repeatedly, not just Ammon. And a bunch more are a syllable off from earlier names, like Moroni and Moronihah. My BS-o-meter goes off when he claims that any name spelled in Roman letters is a match for any Egyptian name. The languages probably don't even share the same sounds, so there's going to be imagination at play here. Confirmation bias, my friend.

 

you can't be serious.

 

 His name was Lemuel Durfee. Bushman mentions him in Rough Stone Rolling.

 

Wow... that's amazing...

 

 I think that one's surprising to us just because the name has fallen out of use, so it's natural to assume it was an invention of Joseph's. Lemuel was an uncommon but not unheard of name as best I can tell. Type it into the baby name wizard for more info: http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager#

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free thinker:

Discussion on facebook. I know I have read on this topic before but anyone have an answer to this inquiry. ?

 

 

ft 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, without delving into the mechanics of its translation, the Book of Mormon introduces to our language, before Champollion even translated Ancient Egyptian, numerous unknown Egyptian names that turn up later, e.g.:

Pacumeni
Pahoran
Paanchi
Manti
Corihor
Nephi (possibly a cognate of Nefer--meaning goodly)
and many others

Meanwhile, non-Biblical Hebrew names that have since been confirmed from non-biblical Hebrew records also appear in the Book of Mormon, e.g. Sariah and (gulp) Alma. The most common name in ancient Egypt was Ammon. The most common name in the Book of Mormon is (gulp again) Ammon.

 

free thinker, Ammon just might be a lucky guess on smith's part... see a little play on words - teaser below!

 

Book of Mormon place names compared to actual Northeast US/Southeast Canada place names
Canadian locations are marked with an asterisk and
appear in the Book of Mormon as lying in "The Land Northward"

ACTUAL PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint
Alma
Angola
Antrim
Antioch
Boaz
*Conner
*Ephrem, Saint
Hellam
Jacobsburg
Jerusalem
Jordan
Kishkiminetas
Lehigh
Mantua
Monroe
Minoa
*Moraviantown
*Morin
Noah Lakes
Oneida
Oneida Castle
Omer
*Rama
*Ripple Lake
Sodom
Shiloh
Land of Midian
*Tecumseh/Tenecum

BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES
Ogath
Alma, Valley of
Angola
Antum
Anti-Anti
Boaz
Comner
Ephraim, Hill
Helam
Jacobugath
Jerusalem
Jordan
Kishkumen
Lehi
Manti
Moroni
Minon
Morianton
Moron
Noah, Land of
Onidah
Onidah, Hill
Omner
Ramah
Ripliancum, Waters of
Sidom
Shilom
Land of Midian
Teancum

I would have pasted the significant maps that are pertinent here but access is limited by copyright!  See link below!   

 

http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm#nhm

 

Has an actual book of mormon location been found - Nahom, should appear? 

 

Scroll down to Critical Answer #3 - Coincidence, to view the maps in question/ addtional commentary!  Enjoy, it's great fun exposing just another interesting problem that haunts the 19th century peep stone magician jo smith jr. in this the 21st century of our world!  victim

 
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I don't have a whole lot of time right now, but I wanted to say really quickly that many Semitic names, and Semitic-looking names in the BofM which stand as purported counter-parts to extra-canonical Hebrew names depend upon vowel placement, usage, and emphasis. This is problematic since it is quite clear in the text of the BofM that vowel sounds (and even to some extent would-be guttural consonants) make up a very large part and distinction of a name, whereas Semitic languages (like Bronze Age Hebrew) didn't do this. Actual Hebrew was all about the triumvirate consonant "roots" of the name, wheras the BofM names differentiate one from another often in their VOWEL usage and placement. It was one of the "huh?" moments for me as I was doing grad work in the Hebrew Bible, and reading the BofM to my (ex-)wife and kids at night.

 

They might be able to find some proper name alignment with extra-canonical Hebrew and/or Egyptian names from the BofM, but I'm not so sure that coincidences of that nature warrant joining the church. After all, a broken clock is still correct twice per day. Moreover, English is such a problematic language in its consonant and vowel usage (remember Gallagher's take on vowels???), that trying to derive proper names from the English to something like Egyptian seems like a stretch to me.

 

Lastly, and this is important, Mormons are by and large Egyptologically illiterate. John Gee is sort of the vanguard of all that, and he's not that good, and has been disowned by Yale and discredited in peer-reviewed academic materials. Because of this, you'd think by talking to Mormons that the language of the plates ought to have been called "Reformed Hebrew" because of all the chiasmus and semiticisms they think they see in the text (over and against any real Egyptian-isms). Nobody over at the Y is qualified to examine the BofM as a proper Egypto-Semitic hybrid. I'm not either, but as a Hebraist, I can say that at least on that side of the conundrum, the BofM fails as a Semitic text on nearly every page. If it contained bits and pieces of real Egyptian language and/or lore, you'd think an Egyptologist aside from Gee would have picked up and pointed out some of these idiosyncracies, but we're still waiting...

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“I will seriously consider believing the Book of Mormon is an ancient text if someone actually discovers, in the Americas, an authentically ancient and decipherable Paleo-Hebrew/Egyptian hybrid text, written upon metal, which includes the translational errors contained exclusively in the King James Version of the Sermon on the Mount. Until then, no can do. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
~Dogger Dog

 
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Umm....Lemuel Burfee wasn't that "evil"....

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http://olivercowdery.com/history/Cdychrn1.htm

 

1825 Dec. 20 The Joseph Smith, Sr. family lose the the title to their farm in Manchester. Lemuel Durfee, Sr., the new owner allows the Smiths to remain on the property as tenant farmers.

 

http://findingaid.lib.byu.edu/viewItem/MSS 3943

 

Lemuel Durfee account book

Dates: 1817-1829

 

Lemuel Durfee’s account book is 46 pages long (two pages are on each photocopied sheet). It covers transactions from May 10, 1817 to December 29, 1829. Transactions involve calf hides, cider, apples, beef, butter, cheese and corn. Lemuel Durfee was very generous with the poor of the Palmyra, New York. There is a typescript of the book’s contents from August 3, 1825 - July 10, 1829. Joseph, Hyrum and Harrison Smith work for Lemuel Durfee; they mow, bind wheat, hoe, and do other farm work. Durfee pays the Smiths in cider. The typescript is 13 pages long. The collection also contains lyrics to a song about cider. Handwritten, 1 page. 

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Does this mean the Smiths had a little still out back....(sniff that cider...wheeeee.) 

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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
       
 


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