First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
The same logic and reason that tell me that the Mormon Church is made up, is the same logic and reason that tell me that God is made up.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
The same logic and reason that tell me that the Mormon Church is made up, is the same logic and reason that tell me that God is made up.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
As the board's pan-atheist, believing in the psychological power of all the gods and goddesses but none literally, maybe I can help clear up this matter. Or muddy the waters. As the case may be.
I think we need to get over that God did not start out as scientific concept. It is somewhat inappropriate to angst over why people believe -- or ever believed -- in something for which there is no proof by our definition of empiracal, measurable evidence. God was never meant to be a scientific question -- so evidence is not the issue.
I think as much as 19th century Christian missionaries laboring in the Amazon rain forest, we are guilty of judging people by our own culture's standard if we find them lacking for not understanding the scientific procedures and our notions of empirical evidence.
After all, in the Bronze Age, people were not sitting around campfires saying, "Hmm. Well I understand perfectly how our universe was a hot, dense state that exploded with a Big Bang about 14 billion years ago, but I think instead I'll just mislead people with the notion of some Guy in the Sky who has mystical powers over us." I can't stress too much, this never happened.
All the gods and goddesses began life as a language people struggled to develop to communicate to each other about life's journey and their most powerful experiences, to imagine and talk about our psyches and our own rather wonderful powers, to set the stage for human civilizations and human endeavours, to deal with issues that still overwhelm us -- birth, pain, the conflicts that naturally arise from being a social animal yet an aggressive animal, life's stages, and death. That is what all gods and goddesses address. It is so much more than just infantile magical thinking in which people indulged because they were not superior (as we are) and could not Just Google It. Also such "spiritual" knowledge and budding empirical knowledge were not polar opposites but often went hand and hand. Early knowledge of astronomy, stars, solstices was amazingly detailed and accurate, yet to those people who did the work intregal to their ideas about supernatural beings.
Unfortunately, some have claimed a clash of worlds with the (praiseworthy) growth of scientific thought warring with the religious. If you are inclined to some misguided, literal interpretation of your own religion, especially one that makes you king of the world and all others lesser, this is probably a genuine problem. I think Mormons especially will find Science Is Not Their Friend.
But I find no conflict between religion and science as I understand them. That is like saying there is a conflict between humanities and the sciences. No. Not buying. You might prefer one to the other, but I don't understand how they conflict with each other.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
I question it on the principle of fairness. Everyone is different. Some born with good health and great looks, while others born with terrible afflications and circumstances. It just seems so unfair. Not even, the big things but the little ones - you have allergies, the guy next to you doesn't, you are tall, he is short, you have an IQ of 130, the next guy is 110. It just doesn't make sense to me how one person draws the short straw in life and another the long one. How and why would a god do this to untold billions of people? How could any being, even god, possibly judge people with the variety of circumstances everyone has?
If there is some sort of god, he is probably very, very different than we think he is.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
There's a simple check of where God sits in the 'Big Scheme of Things':
Scenario: You're in a Boeing 747 at 32'000 feet, 1/3 way from Australia to California. A major in-flight technical drama unfolds.
Question: Would you prefer the cabin crew were:
A: Following all training procedures in a professionally calm, well rehearsed manner, or
B: All kneeling fervently praying to any of the Christian/Muslim/Jewish Gods.
Your answer tells everything about where you REALLY believe God fits in the order of things, rather than His utility in stuff like: helping your team win, finding the car keys, or delaying rain until after the family picnic.
Recently a Muslim pilot was charged in a court of law for doing B, and doing no A. I found that a most telling illustration about the where God-belief fits in the priorities.
It drives me nuts to see a family with a major medical trauma, whose loved one is saved by enormous medical skill, effort and expense, who then lays the credit at God's feet.
Most God-thinking is, to my mind, appaulingly rubbery. It is beyond my comprehension how people can observe two opposing sporting teams, or two opposing armies, each asking God for his help in wining a victory.
How can that not create reflection about God-belief? But it would appear 'believers' can look upon this regulalry as block its meaning from their mind. Can anyone explian that to me?
There is an old Arab expression: Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel.
It is a nice expression that has practical value even if the God-belief is parked aside. A blind faith in the 'goodness of man' can be every bit as problematic.
But it can serve as a good focal point to explore where the line is that separates faith from works. And once you settle well on the side of works, as pragmatists must, what need remains for God, other than mere superstition, social and historical reasons?
What useful purpose does believing in a God serve?
Freud provided one answer.
He observed that observant patients, deprived of opportunity to perform their religious rituals, became anxious.
So, logically it acts as a pacifier.
Now whether it generated the anxiety in the first place, is another question for another day.
This rests upon the assumption that God requires the religious rituals. Has he ordered they be ceased?
Karen Armstrong's book, A Short History of Myth (actually a long (timewise) history of man's notions of God), illustrates that the nature of man's concept of God has this uncanny habit of shifting as man's relationship to his environment shifts.
I guess that makes him the Morphing God. Listen the the radio segment I linked to recently on American Jesus, for one the latest developments in this process.
God creates man in his own image; and man returns the compliment.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
Last paragraph. Yes! I like that very much!
First highlighted paragraph: Poseidon is a good example of what I mean. I do not believe in a god who controls the oceans, who drowns people or causes storms at sea. I think that line of thought is not only unproductive but destructive. If we pursue it, we do not find the real and enormous science behind the oceans, science that is not only awe inspiring but helps us -- say -- survive storms at sea, improve navigation, build lighthouses, life boats, and life jackets.
But I do believe in Poseidon as metaphor. Here the ocean is our unconscious, that watery world in which we too often drown. Poseidon becomes the master of that unconscious realm. This Poseidon is both our awe and fear of the unconscious with its overwhelming emotions that sweep over us like waves, threatening to drown us, and he is also our wish to master that world or to think it has a master. His "storms at sea" are the storms of hard emotional times we all endure in life. That you see is quite different from what I wrote above, in my opinion.
Once you grasp the significance of Poseidon, then you understand why Aphrodite was born by rising from the sea a fully-formed, gorgeous young woman in her most perfect bloom. Love does rise, fully-formed, from our unconscious.
For me, to stand in front of Botticelli's "Birth of Venus" and say only, There is no eternal, perfect goddess of love! is as blind as anything that pops out of the mouths of fundamentalist Christians. Well yes. Of course there is not. But that is hardly the point. The point is to give love, which is eternal in the sense that every generation discovers it anew, a form that makes it real, makes it possible for us to imagine, to talk about.
I understand what you mean. I hope this clarifies what I mean.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
If there is no god then I have to say, of course man conceived god. Is there another option I'm missing?
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
If there is no god then I have to say, of course man conceived god. Is there another option I'm missing?
And the long history of God/s would make clear that we continually re-conceive God. But in any one generation the shift is so subtle that it is hard to detect.
Just look back at the punative Hellfire and Damnation God taught just a few generations back. Has God changed in just a few generations?
How is that possible for an Eternal and Unchanging God?
Yes, a believr might respond, 'But that's just man's false teachings'.
Yes, and once you start discounting chunks of 'belief' as 'just man's teaching', why and when might one cease? A deep study of the issue leaves little to nothing. The long history of 'man's teachings' and teh shifts over time is pretty damned scary, and must undermine blind faith in current interpretations.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
If there is no god then I have to say, of course man conceived god. Is there another option I'm missing?
In my world there is no God. It just seems so stupid to me, to pray to a man who watches over us in the sky. I wonder if there is another option that I am missing??????
Okay, now I'm really going to sound mad! This is the right thread. Someone just renamed it. So, I guess I wasn't rambling as much as I feared.
I also wanted to add that the ancient world did not see these as exclusive opposites the way we do. The Greeks might have offered prayers and sacrifices to Poseidon before they set out to sea. But they did not use that as a substitute for rational thought. They were also always improving their knowledge of the coast, navigating by the skies and landmarks, building sea-worthy vessels, etc. Most cultures have operated in both worlds without the conflict we seem to experience. To say that the Greeks substituted prayer or belief for rational action is provably untrue. Their greatest hero (okay, strictly my opinion), Odysseus, was the great favorite of Athena, the goddess of wisdom. He was often described as wily and clever -- those were his greatest attributes.
What I like about the Greeks is that they had a goddess of wisdom as well as a goddess of love. This seems to me psychologically very true. The wars between these two seem true to me. Who hasn't experienced that one? When good ol' Aphrodite starts a war in your heart because you didn't make her the favorite?
Okay, now I'm really going to sound mad! This is the right thread. Someone just renamed it. So, I guess I wasn't rambling as much as I feared.
I also wanted to add that the ancient world did not see these as exclusive opposites the way we do. The Greeks might have offered prayers and sacrifices to Poseidon before they set out to sea. But they did not use that as a substitute for rational thought. They were also always improving their knowledge of the coast, navigating by the skies and landmarks, building sea-worthy vessels, etc. Most cultures have operated in both worlds without the conflict we seem to experience. To say that the Greeks substituted prayer or belief for rational action is provably untrue. Their greatest hero (okay, strictly my opinion), Odysseus, was the great favorite of Athena, the goddess of wisdom. He was often described as wily and clever -- those were his greatest attributes.
What I like about the Greeks is that they had a goddess of wisdom as well as a goddess of love. This seems to me psychologically very true. The wars between these two seem true to me. Who hasn't experienced that one? When good ol' Aphrodite starts a war in your heart because you didn't make her the favorite?
thewriterwithin
Jeff made the point above that the wriggle room for God has been contracting constantly and apparently irreversably. My aircraft dilema exercise just ups the anti. Allah and camel-care works well too.
Attributing other 'energies' like love, war, fertility etc to Gods is a different process to my mind.
In some ways, I actually think it is more sophisticated than belief in a monotheistic God. My reading of the history of the development of the Jewish monotheistic God suggest his 'jealousy' was more about his priests wanting more control over the poeple, and the monotheistic God served that end better. Bit like mustering cats otherwise.
Back to the camel-care issue.
If I can't just drop the reins when I descend from my camel, and trust God will hold them until my return, then what use is God?
It seems a simple, even simplistic exercise, but not if you think it through.
If God can't hold reins, then why trust he's better at helping your camel heal from a wounded foot? Only the attribution to GodMagictm justifies His continued inclusion. If God can heal your camel, why didn't He prevent him hurting his foot in the first place?
God-belief in so damned open ended and slippery, IMX. In the end people resort to their 'feelings'. How reliable is that?
Occasionally I want to 'kill my neighbour' for the annoying way she revs her lawn trimmer, but does that mean I should act on it? A feeling doth not a fact make.
I'm with the athiest who stated that a 'believer' at 30,000 feet in a jetliner is a hypocrite. My fear is that all the science has provided is being taken for granted and even scorned by people who embrace a very unscientific worldview.
...
I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
Great post! I especially like the part I quoted above.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
If there is no god then I have to say, of course man conceived god. Is there another option I'm missing?
In my world there is no God. It just seems so stupid to me, to pray to a man who watches over us in the sky. I wonder if there is another option that I am missing??????
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
If there is no god then I have to say, of course man conceived god. Is there another option I'm missing?
In my world there is no God. It just seems so stupid to me, to pray to a man who watches over us in the sky. I wonder if there is another option that I am missing??????
I think the highlighted above is the other option.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
If there is no god then I have to say, of course man conceived god. Is there another option I'm missing?
In my world there is no God. It just seems so stupid to me, to pray to a man who watches over us in the sky. I wonder if there is another option that I am missing??????
I think the highlighted above is the other option.
Okay, now I'm really going to sound mad! This is the right thread. Someone just renamed it. So, I guess I wasn't rambling as much as I feared.
I also wanted to add that the ancient world did not see these as exclusive opposites the way we do. The Greeks might have offered prayers and sacrifices to Poseidon before they set out to sea. But they did not use that as a substitute for rational thought. They were also always improving their knowledge of the coast, navigating by the skies and landmarks, building sea-worthy vessels, etc. Most cultures have operated in both worlds without the conflict we seem to experience. To say that the Greeks substituted prayer or belief for rational action is provably untrue. Their greatest hero (okay, strictly my opinion), Odysseus, was the great favorite of Athena, the goddess of wisdom. He was often described as wily and clever -- those were his greatest attributes.
What I like about the Greeks is that they had a goddess of wisdom as well as a goddess of love. This seems to me psychologically very true. The wars between these two seem true to me. Who hasn't experienced that one? When good ol' Aphrodite starts a war in your heart because you didn't make her the favorite?
thewriterwithin
Jeff made the point above that the wriggle room for God has been contracting constantly and apparently irreversably. My aircraft dilema exercise just ups the anti. Allah and camel-care works well too.
Attributing other 'energies' like love, war, fertility etc to Gods is a different process to my mind.
In some ways, I actually think it is more sophisticated than belief in a monotheistic God. My reading of the history of the development of the Jewish monotheistic God suggest his 'jealousy' was more about his priests wanting more control over the poeple, and the monotheistic God served that end better. Bit like mustering cats otherwise.
Back to the camel-care issue.
If I can't just drop the reins when I descend from my camel, and trust God will hold them until my return, then what use is God?
It seems a simple, even simplistic exercise, but not if you think it through.
If God can't hold reins, then why trust he's better at helping your camel heal from a wounded foot? Only the attribution to GodMagictm justifies His continued inclusion. If God can heal your camel, why didn't He prevent him hurting his foot in the first place?
God-belief in so damned open ended and slippery, IMX. In the end people resort to their 'feelings'. How reliable is that?
Occasionally I want to 'kill my neighbour' for the annoying way she revs her lawn trimmer, but does that mean I should act on it? A feeling doth not a fact make.
I'm with the athiest who stated that a 'believer' at 30,000 feet in a jetliner is a hypocrite. My fear is that all the science has provided is being taken for granted and even scorned by people who embrace a very unscientific worldview.
Daryl
Yeah! That is what I am talking about!
I also think the move from a pantheistic or polytheistic world view to a monotheistic -- is -- I dunno -- beyond me for one thing. And poses certain dangers for another. I love the insights into the world I can figure out from Greek mythology, but I have seriously never gotten Christianity. I don't understand the appeal, and I do understand the dangers. To know a little bit about history is to know a little bit about the dangers.
In the polytheistic world, you can have Athena on your side and Venus on your case. This is like real life, for one thing. And for another it is harder to slip into a black and white view of the world. There are some things about you that are good -- at least when seen from one viewpoint. There are some things about you that get you into trouble with other people -- in another situation. You can seriously mess up, but Athena is always on your side.
But once you switch to monotheism you are right or you are wrong. You are in or you are out. You are saved or you are damned. Jesus loves you or he sends you to hell. There goes real-world complexity. There goes one's experience of everyday life -- where some things in your life are working well -- like your love life. But other things are a mess -- your job or your relationships with your friends.
Your fear is legitimate. I don't mean to minimize it. But I think even the most crazed fundamentalist does not really, completely succumb to magical thinking -- so it becomes a straw man. As I said, most cultures have smoothly fused belief and empirical knowledge, worship and rational thought. The Egyptians believed in some fantastical mythology. But they also built the pyramids, built Alexandria, were one of the cradles of civilization, had extremely sophisticated astronomy. These weren't just people who prayed to the gods and hoped for the best. They planned, acted on their knowledge of the world, and manipulated their environment.
One can do both.
But I also understand your fear. It is quite justified in the current world. I attached a link.
"Teachers need to make the money that they need to make," McGill said, according to the Times-Journal. "If you double a teacher's pay scale, you'll attract people who aren't called to teach ... and these teachers that are called to teach, regardless of the pay scale, they would teach. It's just in them to do. It's the ability that God give 'em."
Ecstacy:
Just checking in to see what the believers have posted. Where are the believers when you need them?
One of the difficulties that most of us PostMormons face upon exodus of Mormonism is this; once you've created a tool set to think your way out of Mormonism it is almost impossible not to turn that toolset to other beliefs.
One of our awesome PoMo contributors, Peter_Mary described losing our religion and community as a "gospel sized hole" in our lives. The problem is in searching for another religion to take the place of the one you've lost, you automatically take that toolset and apply it to your proposed substitute...and find the same inconsistencies, double talk, and reliance on faith. Pretty soon you realize that all religions are bogus from a literalist viewpoint.
I do have to say I appreciate TWW's viewpoint of metaphoric application of a polytheistic or panthological worldview to help us cope with the emotional wars conducted inside our own psyche. I am coming to deeply appreciate Jonathan Haidt's statement in The Happiness Hypothesis, "Metaphors are essential to human understanding. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded, and with no metaphor we are blind."
I personally believe that the gods of all cultures are created by man, but at the same time I find the universe in which we live worthy of awe, full of mystery, beautiful and dangerous. It is in all ways worthy of respect.
Ecstacy:
Just checking in to see what the believers have posted. Where are the believers when you need them?
One of the difficulties that most of us PostMormons face upon exodus of Mormonism is this; once you've created a tool set to think your way out of Mormonism it is almost impossible not to turn that toolset to other beliefs.
One of our awesome PoMo contributors, Peter_Mary described losing our religion and community as a "gospel sized hole" in our lives. The problem is in searching for another religion to take the place of the one you've lost, you automatically take that toolset and apply it to your proposed substitute...and find the same inconsistencies, double talk, and reliance on faith. Pretty soon you realize that all religions are bogus from a literalist viewpoint.
I do have to say I appreciate TWW's viewpoint of metaphoric application of a polytheistic or panthological worldview to help us cope with the emotional wars conducted inside our own psyche. I am coming to deeply appreciate Jonathan Haidt's statement in The Happiness Hypothesis, "Metaphors are essential to human understanding. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded, and with no metaphor we are blind."
I personally believe that the gods of all cultures are created by man, but at the same time I find the universe in which we live worthy of awe, full of mystery, beautiful and dangerous. It is in all ways worthy of respect.
Max
Max,
I think many of us PostMos become very poly: polydisciplined. I really do have to thank Mormonism for that.
We're into all sorts of stuff, like history, philosophy, psychology, sociology, biology, archeology, DNA science, 'cultology' and one could go on. The pain of studying and thinking our way out of Mormonism led us to all those disciplines, and more.
And we start to get how all those things together provide a much deeper insight into the world around us, and we get so much better at discerning BS in many of its guises.
BS is BS regardless whether it's 200 years or 2,000 years old. Sure one smells a little fresher, but there no mistaking it for daisies.
I recently read a book about the problems presented about Biblical Old Testament based upon archeological discoveries of the last 30 years, and so much of it falls over. But the human behaviours that appear to underpin the process of building up fabricated stories, is so similar to what goes on in this age, and when Smith was founding Mormonism.
Once you have grasped that idea, you can never face BS in the same gullible way again.
Daryl
PS: And I should add, I have been pointed to many of those disciplines by people here who I have come to respect, and have never been disappointed with a book recommended.
Ecstacy:
Just checking in to see what the believers have posted. Where are the believers when you need them?
One of the difficulties that most of us PostMormons face upon exodus of Mormonism is this; once you've created a tool set to think your way out of Mormonism it is almost impossible not to turn that toolset to other beliefs.
One of our awesome PoMo contributors, Peter_Mary described losing our religion and community as a "gospel sized hole" in our lives. The problem is in searching for another religion to take the place of the one you've lost, you automatically take that toolset and apply it to your proposed substitute...and find the same inconsistencies, double talk, and reliance on faith. Pretty soon you realize that all religions are bogus from a literalist viewpoint.
I do have to say I appreciate TWW's viewpoint of metaphoric application of a polytheistic or panthological worldview to help us cope with the emotional wars conducted inside our own psyche. I am coming to deeply appreciate Jonathan Haidt's statement in The Happiness Hypothesis, "Metaphors are essential to human understanding. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded, and with no metaphor we are blind."
I personally believe that the gods of all cultures are created by man, but at the same time I find the universe in which we live worthy of awe, full of mystery, beautiful and dangerous. It is in all ways worthy of respect.
Max
Yeah. I like that quote a lot. I think you used to have it in your signature line.
I think of religious words and images as vocabulary used to tell stories. I mean when you think about it "water" is not the thing -- you can't quench your thirst with these black pixels on a white screen. "God" is just a word. When we say there isn't one, we are assuming we know what the word stand for. But I wonder. I don't think I have a handle on what the Hebrew circa 600 EBC meant by "god." I am quite clear that there is no white bearded Guy in the Sky directing the traffic of the universe, waving some souls on to heaven while stopping others before sending on to hell. But I am not so sure that is what the Hebrew had in mind.
As for the others -- of course there is a Venus, although I prefer Aphrodite for no good reason. Of course She is eternal. That is why people will fall in love as you are reading this just as they did when a Greek anonymous was carving her marble likeness in the 2nd century AD and just as they did when Botticelli was painting her breathtaking portrait in the Renaissance and when Marilyn Monroe was lighting up the screen in the 1950 and today when Kaley Cuoco swims into the frame on Big Bang. See -- eternal.
