I am waiting for those who believe to explain it to me.
What useful purpose does believing in a God serve?
Could a deep tradition of patience and an almost inconceivable and wonderful respect for both the simple and complex aspects of these many questions be a start?
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
This is what scares me about humankind, everything you listed above is made up.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
I think AtheistAnarchist has summed it up well. Religious belief isn't something people adopt because it aligns with observable reality but because those beliefs help them navigate the social and emotional realities of life. Most believers who are willing to be honest about their beliefs (and they will usually only do so with someone they know well and trust) will acknowledge that it boils down to this pragmatic acceptance.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
I think AtheistAnarchist has summed it up well. Religious belief isn't something people adopt because it aligns with observable reality but because those beliefs help them navigate the social and emotional realities of life. Most believers who are willing to be honest about their beliefs (and they will usually only do so with someone they know well and trust) will acknowledge that it boils down to this pragmatic acceptance.
This is what pisses me off!!!!!!! ALL THIS RELIGIOUS CRAP IS ALL MADE UP!!!! ALL OF IT, BOTH THE MORMON CRAP AND THE NON MORMON CRAP. IT IS ALL MADE UP CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
The same logic and reason that tell me that the Mormon Church is made up, is the same logic and reason that tell me that God is made up.
Funny how logic and reason works.
What is wrong with us that we don't stop to use logic and reaason???????
It's all caveman shaking their rattles...and painting walls with animal gods. They didn't know what caused death....they tried to make the best of it. Yup...all made up out of whole cloth.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
The same logic and reason that tell me that the Mormon Church is made up, is the same logic and reason that tell me that God is made up.
Funny how logic and reason works.
Yes, funny. Except when you are surrounded by belivers, like I am. Logic and reason goes out the window!!!!!!!
I'm "starting from scratch" in deciding whether to believe in a "higher power." Right now, I'm agnostic, but believe that I should leave all possibilities open. I think that men invent gods for several reasons. First, it's a logical extension. "We create things, and so the universe must have been created by someone." This is really not sound reasoning, of course. The universe may have created itself or may be part of an eternal multiverse, as newer theories posit.
Another compelling reason for inventing a theology is to reassure oneself of an afterlife. We have no evidence at all that there is one, but it's frightening not to have an idea of what happens after death, even if we have to make up a scenario or believe one that someone else invented. My feeling on this is that even if we simply cease to exist when we are dead, why worry about it.. we won't be there TO worry! Since everyone dies and it's inevitable, there's no reason to fret about it.
If there is a higher power, it's certainly unlikely to have the body of a man or be like anything we are familiar with at all. Similarly, if there are other intelligent beings, they'd be nothing like us. Reason leads us to know that our evolution is unique.
All it takes to open the mind to these wonderful exploratory thoughts is to shed the mythology that was taught to us, whatever that might be. I have always questioned why it is that people seem so dead-set on passing on their mythologies and compelling their children to believe it. It's really a primative and unethical urge to force human minds to close in upon themselves and blindly follow the magical thinking that is religion. Every single religion, when exposed to sound reasoning, is pure fantasy.
I'm "starting from scratch" in deciding whether to believe in a "higher power." Right now, I'm agnostic, but believe that I should leave all possibilities open. I think that men invent gods for several reasons. First, it's a logical extension. "We create things, and so the universe must have been created by someone." This is really not sound reasoning, of course. The universe may have created itself or may be part of an eternal multiverse, as newer theories posit.
Another compelling reason for inventing a theology is to reassure oneself of an afterlife. We have no evidence at all that there is one, but it's frightening not to have an idea of what happens after death, even if we have to make up a scenario or believe one that someone else invented. My feeling on this is that even if we simply cease to exist when we are dead, why worry about it.. we won't be there TO worry! Since everyone dies and it's inevitable, there's no reason to fret about it.
If there is a higher power, it's certainly unlikely to have the body of a man or be like anything we are familiar with at all. Similarly, if there are other intelligent beings, they'd be nothing like us. Reason leads us to know that our evolution is unique.
All it takes to open the mind to these wonderful exploratory thoughts is to shed the mythology that was taught to us, whatever that might be. I have always questioned why it is that people seem so dead-set on passing on their mythologies and compelling their children to believe it. It's really a primative and unethical urge to force human minds to close in upon themselves and blindly follow the magical thinking that is religion. Every single religion, when exposed to sound reasoning, is pure fantasy.
( )It is frightening to me that humankind could be such a coward to need to invent an afterlife for comfort.
Well, I have to admit... It bothers me not knowing what happens! That's a natural function of the human mind, always wanting to KNOW things. The key to this is to realize that we can't ever know ANYTHING for an absolute certainty and must learn to appreciate the "wonder of not knowing," and be willing to use rational thought and exploration to attempt to find out! The mistake is: Having to know so badly that you are willing to suspend logic and reason in order to believe "on faith." Faith is NOT a virtue! It is the ability to fool oneself.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
I think AtheistAnarchist has summed it up well. Religious belief isn't something people adopt because it aligns with observable reality but because those beliefs help them navigate the social and emotional realities of life. Most believers who are willing to be honest about their beliefs (and they will usually only do so with someone they know well and trust) will acknowledge that it boils down to this pragmatic acceptance.
This is what pisses me off!!!!!!! ALL THIS RELIGIOUS CRAP IS ALL MADE UP!!!! ALL OF IT, BOTH THE MORMON CRAP AND THE NON MORMON CRAP. IT IS ALL MADE UP CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes. It is all made up. The problem is that on some level, it works. It brings people together and makes them feel like a part of community. It has some frivolous, unecessary and sometimes even damaging rules but it also provides additional rewards and deterrants for some rules which have to be practiced in order to be a functioning member of society. It provides comfort to some believers about things which there is little realistic hope to give. I wish the world would embrace secularism but in order for secularism to continue to develop and grow we will have to do a better job of providing the kind of communities and emotional support Mormonism provides.
Of course mankind made up the many gods and goddesses.
But I wonder why some claim that makes them sick to their stomachs or angry. I honestly don't get it. So?
Honey, you go to movies that are made by human beings. Human beings pretend they are someone other than who they are (acting). Human beings write stories that never happened or tweak stories that actually happened beyond recognition. Others joyously join in the grand deception -- it takes not a village but a small city to make a movie. They do make-up so we will believe the people on the screen are the people in their fantasy world. They build sets that are not real places and make them look real. They light the sets to pull you into their phantom reality. They write music that will tug at your emotions and get you in the mood to believe the story is real.
Don't you think hurling is a bit of an over-reaction to art and culture? You realize that our movies trace their linage back to Greek dramas (who no doubt got it from a culture even older) where "actors" would don masks and pretend to be -- wait for it -- gods and goddesses. The horror. The horror.
As for being completely unglued because people in other times and places or of different educational background did not and do not have our knowledge of the universe and -- get this -- believed and believe things we now know are not true -- really!?! That upsets you? Sort like getting up one day and saying "Oh most of the people who lived on earth didn't have the indoor plumbing I have! (Not that I can fix a U joint or get how they make that water run uphill...) That is so terrible! Humankind is so lacking compared to superior me!!!I think I'll slash my wrists in despair." Now if you had single-handedly invented plumbing, I might be at least a little sympathetic to some pride on the point, although why you would want to trash societies that had no indoor plumbing is beyond me. What do you get out of that?
Oh sweetie. I do not want to be the one to tell you about the dinosaurs.
Yes. It is all made up. The problem is that on some level, it works. It brings people together and makes them feel like a part of community. It has some frivolous, unecessary and sometimes even damaging rules but it also provides additional rewards and deterrants for some rules which have to be practiced in order to be a functioning member of society. It provides comfort to some believers about things which there is little realistic hope to give. I wish the world would embrace secularism but in order for secularism to continue to develop and grow we will have to do a better job of providing the kind of communities and emotional support Mormonism provides.
Didn't we decide to not know if God does exist or how he fits or how he does not fit into human minds? I mean, until someone says that they "know" these things, I might think I may be hearing some terrible Mormon phraseology lingering.
Something good struck my thoughts yesterday. I'll try and tell you when it happened.
It happened when I wanted to make the pioneer Mormon trail trek from my computer and thought of a good way to get in a couple thousand jaunts a quarter mile at a time. That's right, from the Google maps you can walk on almost any of the roads that lead west after leaving Nauvoo.
Easily picturing carrying a distraught heart and few belongings into the vast unknown, I set out on roads instead of trails and muddy paths. Imagined the terrible and cold stream crossings. Ever changing plans, completely unforecastable struggles. I watched how the soft and wet lands closest to the Missouri and Mississippi rivers near Iowa led to much drier and higher harder grounds.
All the while still carrying my broken heart. Shouldering my unexpected and drastic change.
I was one of the hated from where I recently departed.
I wasn't too interested in the Great Platte River history of wagon and perhaps cart travel as much as I was intrigued how the mind of the ordinary saint was filled with flawed and awful Mormon theology, yet sometimes I am sure God would seem to provide for needs except when things could become most treacherous or deadly. What I mean is, I kind of started to realize you don't need to have God or the quest for spirituality and wrapped all neat and tidy. Carefully or perfectly constructed or even carry any common belief in maybe God or whatever it is that leads you into the next hidden turn.
I guess it was so readily available for me to picture because I now am on a trek again myself, a personal and new journey. So much is unclear and loosened again, uncomfortable and unsure and unknown. Canvas clean and still spiritual too. The dirty Mormon past I may still own has opened into a beautiful valley and thank God it's not near Salt Lake. And even if it was, I think I could try and make that alright too.
I'll never be LDS again, nothing even close. I wanted to seek out a life like I was never LDS and yet still hold on to those important memories of becoming so deceived. Also, from becoming so hated and despised because of my quaint new enlightenment and fresher non Mormon thinking.
I'm not as angry at things as I am understanding, like being passionate about God and spirituality more than choosing the other unknowns. Not so hung up on "knowing" or even having to "know", mostly because that is so awful and so LDS again.
I'm not really sure where I have managed to make it to in the trek, I could maybe finish it and view the great and spectacular grand opening of the descending trail into the promised Zion of many dreams, but I seriously doubt it. Contentedness may have made it this far and it doesn't look like I might have to abandon or throw that to the trail and leave something like that behind. Right now I like to imagine what it must have been like to descend into a big land from a small and possibly deadly set of circumstances along an unending and very narrow trail. And that is apparently good enough for even today.
Yes. It is all made up. The problem is that on some level, it works.
It brings people together and makes them feel like a part of
community. It has some frivolous, unecessary and sometimes even damaging
rules but it also provides additional rewards and deterrants for some
rules which have to be practiced in order to be a functioning member of
society. It provides comfort to some believers about things which there
is little realistic hope to give. I wish the world would embrace
secularism but in order for secularism to continue to develop and grow
we will have to do a better job of providing the kind of communities and
emotional support Mormonism provides.
In a nutshell, this illustrates my quandary. My family are true believers, so I feel that I should never come out openly with my rational beliefs. It would cause more distress and emotional trouble than it's worth. I love my wife, even though she believes a total myth. It works for her, so who am I to damage her world? I'm stuck pretending that I at least am "a member with a wavering testimony," even though I'm actually a full-blown apostate!
Yes. It is all made up. The problem is that on some level, it works. It brings people together and makes them feel like a part of community. It has some frivolous, unecessary and sometimes even damaging rules but it also provides additional rewards and deterrants for some rules which have to be practiced in order to be a functioning member of society. It provides comfort to some believers about things which there is little realistic hope to give. I wish the world would embrace secularism but in order for secularism to continue to develop and grow we will have to do a better job of providing the kind of communities and emotional support Mormonism provides.
In a nutshell, this illustrates my quandary. My family are true believers, so I feel that I should never come out openly with my rational beliefs. It would cause more distress and emotional trouble than it's worth. I love my wife, even though she believes a total myth. It works for her, so who am I to damage her world? I'm stuck pretending that I at least am "a member with a wavering testimony," even though I'm actually a full-blown apostate!
I'm in a fairly similar circumstance. It is very frustrating.
Thousands of years ago our ancestors believed that gods were responsible for just about everything -- from the waves in the ocean to lightning, the movement of the sun, stars, and planets, fire, whatever. If humans didn't understand it, then God must have done it.
Fast forward a few thousand years and...
Point 1. Many of the things that were once thought the result of God's intervention now only a fool would think so, even if the person is a devout believer in God.
Point 2. Never once, ever, has something that was once thought understood in terms of physical cause and effect, later determined to be something that God causes. Not once. Ever.
So, I think I see a trend here, and from that trend I can extrapolate with a good deal of confidence that at some point in the future nothing will be attributed to God.
Therefore, I don't believe in God -- but I am a believer! I have a firm belief that the universe we live in is a wonderful mystery, more awesome and beautiful and powerful than any God that man can possibly conceive.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
Voltaire
My personal belief is that God was invented to deal with the fear of death and the obvious injustice in the world. To many people, thoughts of death (I will soon cease to exist) and thoughts of injustice (the little girl as brutally raped and killed and the criminal was never found) create to much cognitive dissonance to handle.
It is frightening to me that humankind could be such a coward to need to invent an afterlife for comfort.
Ecstacy, what is it exactly you want from people at Postmo? You act shocked and out of sorts with your conflicts about god. Do you need others to convince you one way or the other? In the end, my friend, we all have to make that decision for ourselves. Others can guide us but we have to make the decision as to what we believe or don't believe. Anyway, we at Postmo are here for support if that's what you need.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
Voltaire
My personal belief is that God was invented to deal with the fear of death and the obvious injustice in the world. To many people, thoughts of death (I will soon cease to exist) and thoughts of injustice (the little girl as brutally raped and killed and the criminal was never found) create to much cognitive dissonance for the minds of some people to handle.
If atheism did not exist, would man necessarily invent it?
Wouldn't it be fairly easy to consider if man invented atheism to help deal with the inevitable death and the fear of death and what might occur because of all of the karma involved in the not so nice things already accomplish in their life? All of the injustices personally owned by someone so inescapably saturating their selfish yet maybe ordinary life. Perhaps with so many loose ends with the one sure arriving end of their living there may have encountered a meeting with this old and tired entity of freedom from conviction and caught circumstance sure, arriving just in the nick of time called atheism.
But I wonder why some claim that makes them sick to their stomachs or angry. I honestly don't get it. So?
It might be just the "discovery" is making them sick...that what they had a belief in...has bitten the dust...and taken their inner soul workings with it.
In a nutshell, this illustrates my quandary. My family are true believers, so I feel that I should never come out openly with my rational beliefs. It would cause more distress and emotional trouble than it's worth. I love my wife, even though she believes a total myth. It works for her, so who am I to damage her world? I'm stuck pretending that I at least am "a member with a wavering testimony," even though I'm actually a full-blown apostate!
That (and this thread) describes me exactly!
I go to church for my TBM DW's sake, but I absolutely hate that infernal waste of time. Particularly since being LDS (if you obey the rules, as my wife insists we do) on Sunday you are either at church or acting like you are.
My coming out to my wife started when I first told her that I had never been able to get out of the back of my mind that all religion is merely the mythology of our day. She knows I hate the litany of Mormon rules and regulations (even she will admit that she wishes she could have a glass of wine once in awhile) so I run the risk that my doubt will seem to her like nothing but a way of avoidance of following whatever commandment I'm supposed to be observing at any given time.
But regardless of all that, I have big issues with "God", particularly the God of the Bible.
He supposedly not only created us, his children, but loves us as well. Yet the Bible says "straight is the gate and narrow the way and few there be that find it". So if the gate is the gate to heaven, and only a few find it, what about the many??? Hell??
You mean we are his children and he loves us, but he will be sending the majority of us to an eternal lake of fire and misery? Gee, thanks Dad.
At least the Mormon degrees of glory make sense by comparison.
Then there is God and justice.
Sadly there are too many instances of actual horror and injustice on this, God's world, to even imagine. Besides obvious events like the holocaust, among the worst I've ever heard was of a little girl who's parents systematically tortured her until she mercifully died from it at the age of five. Thankfully they let their older daughter live and her teacher at school inquired about her abuse injuries and from there the parents were arrested and eventually brought to trial for murder. But where was God for those girls, and especially for that innocent little child?!?!? Religion says the parents will get their "reward", but what about the "reward" for living a short, terrifying, and pain filled life?? Oh, it's all part of the plan, they say. Yeah, what a plan.
On yet another note, my mother is ex-Mormon, but she is big time Christian. When I finally got a job after a lay off and long period of unemployment she said "God is great". For her sake I fought back the urge to say "what was he when I got laid off?".
It's amazing what people can ignore and still insist that there is a real, and loving God.
You might think this question is elementary. Did man conceive God?
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
Voltaire
My personal belief is that God was invented to deal with the fear of death and the obvious injustice in the world. To many people, thoughts of death (I will soon cease to exist) and thoughts of injustice (the little girl as brutally raped and killed and the criminal was never found) create to much cognitive dissonance for the minds of some people to handle.
If atheism did not exist, would man necessarily invent it?
Wouldn't it be fairly easy to consider if man invented atheism to help deal with the inevitable death and the fear of death and what might occur because of all of the karma involved in the not so nice things already accomplish in their life? All of the injustices personally owned by someone so inescapably saturating their selfish yet maybe ordinary life. Perhaps with so many loose ends with the one sure arriving end of their living there may have encountered a meeting with this old and tired entity of freedom from conviction and caught circumstance sure, arriving just in the nick of time called atheism.
Atheism is the natural state. We are all "a"something-or-other until we have evidence to believe othewise. I am an abigfootist, ufoist, and azeusist, and an infinite number of other a-things. There is no need to invent terms like abigfootist, because the onus is on the person asserting the existence of something to provide evidence for their belief.
As one of my favorite "prophets" of the Book of Mormon observed:
-
Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God; and except ye show me a sign, I will not believe.
Theists raise the same tired refrain against atheists as Mormons raise against non-Mormons -- you became an atheist (left the church) because you wanted to sin -- you became an atheist (left the chuch) because you were weak, etc.
I find such allegations offensive. Being raised a believer, no one wanted God to exist than I did. What started me on the road to a loss of faith was Moroni's promise. I could never get an "answer" to my prayers, no matter what I did -- fasting for days, praying all night, trying to live as perfectly as possible. After many years, the only thing that saved my sanity was to consider that Mormoni's promise might be wrong. After I deconstructed Mormonism, I didn't stop there. I read Bart Ehrman and others who convinced me that nobody knows whether Christ exists or what he actually taught. This led me to question Christianity and, ultimately, God.
Of course mankind made up the many gods and goddesses.
But I wonder why some claim that makes them sick to their stomachs or angry. I honestly don't get it. So?
Honey, you go to movies that are made by human beings. Human beings pretend they are someone other than who they are (acting). Human beings write stories that never happened or tweak stories that actually happened beyond recognition. Others joyously join in the grand deception -- it takes not a village but a small city to make a movie. They do make-up so we will believe the people on the screen are the people in their fantasy world. They build sets that are not real places and make them look real. They light the sets to pull you into their phantom reality. They write music that will tug at your emotions and get you in the mood to believe the story is real.
Don't you think hurling is a bit of an over-reaction to art and culture? You realize that our movies trace their linage back to Greek dramas (who no doubt got it from a culture even older) where "actors" would don masks and pretend to be -- wait for it -- gods and goddesses. The horror. The horror.
As for being completely unglued because people in other times and places or of different educational background did not and do not have our knowledge of the universe and -- get this -- believed and believe things we now know are not true -- really!?! That upsets you? Sort like getting up one day and saying "Oh most of the people who lived on earth didn't have the indoor plumbing I have! (Not that I can fix a U joint or get how they make that water run uphill...) That is so terrible! Humankind is so lacking compared to superior me!!!I think I'll slash my wrists in despair." Now if you had single-handedly invented plumbing, I might be at least a little sympathetic to some pride on the point, although why you would want to trash societies that had no indoor plumbing is beyond me. What do you get out of that?
Oh sweetie. I do not want to be the one to tell you about the dinosaurs.
I mean -- get a grip!
( ) I AM NOT YOUR HONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OR YOUR SWEETIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAVE SOME RESPECT WILL YOU?????????????????????????????????????????WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU ADDRESSING ME IN THAT WAY?????????
( ) THIS IS UNCALLED FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE, STAY OUT OF MY WAY. IF YOU COME LOOKING FOR ME,YOU WILL FIND ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is frightening to me that humankind could be such a coward to need to invent an afterlife for comfort.
Ecstacy, what is it exactly you want from people at Postmo? You act shocked and out of sorts with your conflicts about god. Do you need others to convince you one way or the other? In the end, my friend, we all have to make that decision for ourselves. Others can guide us but we have to make the decision as to what we believe or don't believe. Anyway, we at Postmo are here for support if that's what you need.
I am looking to get educated about the things I don't know. To be educated in a way my family never could do it, there are others here that know so much more than me.
In a nutshell, this illustrates my quandary. My family are true believers, so I feel that I should never come out openly with my rational beliefs. It would cause more distress and emotional trouble than it's worth. I love my wife, even though she believes a total myth. It works for her, so who am I to damage her world? I'm stuck pretending that I at least am "a member with a wavering testimony," even though I'm actually a full-blown apostate!
That (and this thread) describes me exactly!
I go to church for my TBM DW's sake, but I absolutely hate that infernal waste of time. Particularly since being LDS (if you obey the rules, as my wife insists we do) on Sunday you are either at church or acting like you are.
My coming out to my wife started when I first told her that I had never been able to get out of the back of my mind that all religion is merely the mythology of our day. She knows I hate the litany of Mormon rules and regulations (even she will admit that she wishes she could have a glass of wine once in awhile) so I run the risk that my doubt will seem to her like nothing but a way of avoidance of following whatever commandment I'm supposed to be observing at any given time.
But regardless of all that, I have big issues with "God", particularly the God of the Bible.
He supposedly not only created us, his children, but loves us as well. Yet the Bible says "straight is the gate and narrow the way and few there be that find it". So if the gate is the gate to heaven, and only a few find it, what about the many??? Hell??
You mean we are his children and he loves us, but he will be sending the majority of us to an eternal lake of fire and misery? Gee, thanks Dad.
At least the Mormon degrees of glory make sense by comparison.
Then there is God and justice.
Sadly there are too many instances of actual horror and injustice on this, God's world, to even imagine. Besides obvious events like the holocaust, among the worst I've ever heard was of a little girl who's parents systematically tortured her until she mercifully died from it at the age of five. Thankfully they let their older daughter live and her teacher at school inquired about her abuse injuries and from there the parents were arrested and eventually brought to trial for murder. But where was God for those girls, and especially for that innocent little child?!?!? Religion says the parents will get their "reward", but what about the "reward" for living a short, terrifying, and pain filled life?? Oh, it's all part of the plan, they say. Yeah, what a plan.
On yet another note, my mother is ex-Mormon, but she is big time Christian. When I finally got a job after a lay off and long period of unemployment she said "God is great". For her sake I fought back the urge to say "what was he when I got laid off?".
It's amazing what people can ignore and still insist that there is a real, and loving God.
Ecstacy:
First, I want to clarify that I don't believe in God, so you won't offend me. This post is directed to those who believe, help me understand why you believe. What good is God? Why do you believe? What evidence is there, that there is a God?
There is no evidence for god. That's where faith, hope, and outright belief come in.
God is like intelligent life on other planets. No empiricism exists for or against. So you use logic and reason, self-awareness and psychology, and ethical philosophy to come to the conclusion that you can live with, and then move on with your life.
I think AtheistAnarchist has summed it up well. Religious belief isn't something people adopt because it aligns with observable reality but because those beliefs help them navigate the social and emotional realities of life. Most believers who are willing to be honest about their beliefs (and they will usually only do so with someone they know well and trust) will acknowledge that it boils down to this pragmatic acceptance.
RationalGuy:
Well, I have to admit... It bothers me not knowing what happens! That's a natural function of the human mind, always wanting to KNOW things. The key to this is to realize that we can't ever know ANYTHING for an absolute certainty and must learn to appreciate the "wonder of not knowing," and be willing to use rational thought and exploration to attempt to find out! The mistake is: Having to know so badly that you are willing to suspend logic and reason in order to believe "on faith." Faith is NOT a virtue! It is the ability to fool oneself.
The thing that woke me up about the is no god was when I was watching the show "Rome". There was a scene with a woman praying to the god of Jupiter and asking for health, happiness,etc. and then a bucket of blood was poured all over her. I turned the show off and i got down on my knees and prayed for health and happiness.........
That was the last time I prayed. The names had just been changed over the years. I realized my house was filled with statues of Jesus heads and temples and I was disgusted. It was idolatry to it's finest. I was just to close.
For me to not believe in god helps me see how important THIS life is. Why live for an afterlife. There may not be another chance. Use your time wisely. Enjoy it.
If there is a god, oh well. If there isn't, oh well. Should it really change the person who you really want to be?
firstwife:
The thing that woke me up about the is no god was when I was watching the show "Rome". There was a scene with a woman praying to the god of Jupiter and asking for health, happiness,etc. and then a bucket of blood was poured all over her. I turned the show off and i got down on my knees and prayed for health and happiness......... That was the last time I prayed. The names had just been changed over the years. I realized my house was filled with statues of Jesus heads and temples and I was disgusted. It was idolatry to it's finest. I was just to close. For me to not believe in god helps me see how important THIS life is. Why live for an afterlife. There may not be another chance. Use your time wisely. Enjoy it. If there is a god, oh well. If there isn't, oh well. Should it really change the person who you really want to be.
This is funny!!!!
thewriterwithin:
