I'm starting to feel a lot of anger and despair, because I'm going on this journey alone without my husband. And I can see it pulling us apart. I'm mad that I was taught and believed all of the church stuff in the first place. If I'd known the truth all along it wouldn't suddenly be an issue now, after 9 1/2 years of marriage and 5 kids. I don't know what to do and where to go from here. I'm worried I'm going to end up spending the rest of my life married to a TBM and not wanting my girls to go down the same path. I'm feeling so many emotions right now and it's so frustrating! I feel like we can't be an us anymore and that isn't how a marriage should be.
We just had a talk about feeling guilt and judgement in the church, and why I feel better now and have changed so much. He says he doesn't feel those things and doesn't understand where I'm coming from. Is that even possible to be a TBM of the church and not?
Sometimes I think it is more difficult for women with questions...then men....do to all the responsibilities, the feelings of guilt in disappointing surrounding family...and the sheer loneliness.
Some of us choose to attend if necessary *hiding out in the genealogy room*...(to keep the peace)...but as one ages, and the children grow up....the need to attend meetings lessens.
You might miss out on some temple marriages...failing to "pass" the Bishop interview exams.
But you can witness gchildren baptisms....and still participate in blessing watch.
It's not horrible...just painful...but you have your integrity in tact.
You know the truth, that the church is a scam.
And as research into the church goes...you'll strengthen your resolve.
You are only responsible for yourself.
If one of your children feels safe in coming to you when their belief falters...you're there to share.
I don't feel close to my husband... because we see things so differently.
I feel like I'm just going through the motions - not just in church (I still go) - but also in my marriage. I try to be a good wife - help him feel loved & do things that mean a lot to him... but sometimes I feel like I'm living a lie. Every time we talk about the church, it ends up in a long fight & we get nowhere... except he did agree to pay tithing to the poor, instead of the church. I think he blamed me & the bishop still considers him worthy. Still, I think that was a baby step... of compromise.
Is your husband the kind of person who takes the church casually?
Maybe that's why he doesn't feel any excessive guilt or judgment.
I read a study that showed people who take religion casually do better mentally & physically than those who are fanatical or non-involved.
Maybe that's the key - to just not care too much...
To not care what other people think or say about us...
To not care that it's a big scam... but to take what's good (loving & feeling loved - by some at least) & leave the rest.
I felt and still feel like this on occasion. I came out to my DH in October 2011. I could see the hurt in his face and it was pulling us apart. But I let him know that I loved him and no matter what happened I would always love him and our four children.
TAKE IT SLOW!
I started with the first vision with my husband. He was very skeptical at first and immediately went to lds.org to search. To my surprise and his it talks about multiple versions. He was shocked because he had never heard anything about this. Too make matters worse, for him, the excuses on lds.org are lame as to why there is more than one account and why they are so different. He saw right through them. This was plus one for me.
Next I moved to polygamy/polygyny. He was shocked to find out that had married women while they were married to other active members of the church. He couldn't understand this because he was pretty sure that didn't marry anyone else and that people were sealed to him once he mas killed. Again plus one for me.
I recently brought up the Book of Abraham and again what a shock for him. Another plus one for me.
As I have mentioned in a different post his problem now is the spiritual feelings/experiences he has had. While we tried to talk about it and I tried to reason why it could have happen he didn't agree. Minus one for me.
He, however, is now questioning where he stands in the church. He isn't sure he believes in it and it hasn't taken him that long to come to this conclusion.
There are still hard days. Days where I wonder what his final decision will be and days were I get impatient. I really want him to decide and know, like I do, that TSCC isn't true. I think he will eventually get there, but it is a really slow process.
You will be fine just take it slow and slowly introduce the eveidience to your DH. Also find any and all quotes and articles that support your position that are from church sources. They are all over.
You will make it through this. If you ever need to chat or want to talk feel free to send me a PM. (((HUGS)))
I felt and still feel like this on occasion. I came out to my DH in October 2011. I could see the hurt in his face and it was pulling us apart. But I let him know that I loved him and no matter what happened I would always love him and our four children.
TAKE IT SLOW!
I started with the first vision with my husband. He was very skeptical at first and immediately went to lds.org to search. To my surprise and his it talks about multiple versions. He was shocked because he had never heard anything about this. Too make matters worse, for him, the excuses on lds.org are lame as to why there is more than one account and why they are so different. He saw right through them. This was plus one for me.
Next I moved to polygamy/polygyny. He was shocked to find out that had married women while they were married to other active members of the church. He couldn't understand this because he was pretty sure that didn't marry anyone else and that people were sealed to him once he mas killed. Again plus one for me.
I recently brought up the Book of Abraham and again what a shock for him. Another plus one for me.
As I have mentioned in a different post his problem now is the spiritual feelings/experiences he has had. While we tried to talk about it and I tried to reason why it could have happen he didn't agree. Minus one for me.
He, however, is now questioning where he stands in the church. He isn't sure he believes in it and it hasn't taken him that long to come to this conclusion.
There are still hard days. Days where I wonder what his final decision will be and days were I get impatient. I really want him to decide and know, like I do, that TSCC isn't true. I think he will eventually get there, but it is a really slow process.
You will be fine just take it slow and slowly introduce the eveidience to your DH. Also find any and all quotes and articles that support your position that are from church sources. They are all over.
You will make it through this. If you ever need to chat or want to talk feel free to send me a PM. (((HUGS)))
A book recommendation for you... Jonathan Haidt's "The Happiness Hypothesis." There is a chapter on "elevation" that discusses those feelings and puts them into perspective.
I also think it is important to ask people if they are confronted by a contradictory situation, is it more important to trust your feelings or trust evidence?
Imagine for a moment that you meet a man in your neighborhood. He seems like a kind person who is genuinely helpful. A few months later after considerable neighborly interaction you find out he is being accused of a brutal rape, completely at odds with anything you've ever seen in his behavior. What are your feelings at this point? Do you stand behind your neighbor and support him in his time of trouble?
What if they collected body fluids that positively identified him through DNA testing and the victim was covered with bruises, broken ribs and black eyes. At that point, which do you trust more, the evidence or your feelings?
I didn't want to talk bad about my husband before. But I have no one to talk to now without getting my family involved, which I'm not ready to do even though they have all left the church (except for my brother). This morning I found out that my DH has started looking for porn online again and masterbating behind my back. Five years ago I found out he had done it two occasions before during our marriage and that his sex addiction problem was much worse than he disclosed before we got married, but this is his first relapse since we went through counseling and he told the Bishop. He told me I'm the only reason we got married in the temple and that he didn't continue down the path he was on. After I told him I was leaving the church, the first things he questioned me on were mostly all sex related. And he started making weird comments like "Without God what would keep a person from going out and sleeping with a bunch of people?" and things like that. I tried to explain to him that for me it has nothing to do with God and is about respect. Yet when I ask him about what reasons he has to not do those things, he says it's just because of the church. I told him that hurts my feelings and it should be about our marriage commitment to one another as well. He voiced his concerns that he thinks I wouldn't be apostating right now if it weren't for his sex addiction and the screw ups he has made. I told him that it's not true and is actually quite egotistical of him. But at the same time I am worried about what path he will go down if he does leave the church. If he's already having a few doubts about the church because I've left, and the first thing he does is fall back into his old ways how bad will things get? I've often wondered how he felt worthy to do all the things he's done as a priesthood holder without really repenting first. He argued with me that he had repented, just he hadn't told the bishop everything. Now I feel like my husband doesn't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously and that's why it's a non-issue for him. I guess it could be worse and he could be an alcoholic or druggie or something. I felt jipped 5 years ago when I found out about all of his skeletons, that I didn't really know who I had been married to for 4 1/2 years, but we worked through it. Now he's saying he feels jipped now that I'm leaving the church, that he didn't really know who I was. I told him I know what that feels like. But that I think it's completely different since I've been mislead and lied to myself about what I was believing. I asked him today how he could wear his garments and not feel guilty about what he was doing, he said it doesn't faze him at all. I asked him where the Holy Ghost was, and he says he doesn't know. I'm so confused. I want him to leave the church, but I'm worried about who he will really become. It seems he really has no moral compass. He even said he would want to drop out of school, live off of the government, and do things he wants all day like work on cars if he lost his belief in God. He's really becoming someone I don't like.
"We just had a talk about feeling guilt and judgement in the church, and why I feel better now and have changed so much. He says he doesn't feel those things and doesn't understand where I'm coming from. Is that even possible to be a TBM of the church and not? "
He feels that we should love God and the atonement so much that we don't feel guilt, just a desire to improve and give our all to God. Yes, that is how the atonement should work. But it doesn't. It just means that you are doing all the work. God /Jesus really isn't doing anything.
And that's not how it works in scripture - you're supposed to feel sorrow for your sins (hence those lovely church disciplinary coucils). What are they for if not to make people feel humiliated / "humble" and sorrow / "guilt". Just change the names, but the feeling is still the same.
Plus, that's my DH's view as a 40 year old. That's not how it works for teens and young adults. We all know it is guilt we feel when we've done something wrong. Sure it's nice to think you get to a point where you can reframe it and now you understand the atonement, but that's not the way it's taught. So really, I guess he's following his own grown-up version of the gospel.
I'm starting to feel a lot of anger and despair, because I'm going on this journey alone without my husband. And I can see it pulling us apart. I'm mad that I was taught and believed all of the church stuff in the first place. If I'd known the truth all along it wouldn't suddenly be an issue now, after 9 1/2 years of marriage and 5 kids. I don't know what to do and where to go from here. I'm worried I'm going to end up spending the rest of my life married to a TBM and not wanting my girls to go down the same path. I'm feeling so many emotions right now and it's so frustrating! I feel like we can't be an us anymore and that isn't how a marriage should be.
We just had a talk about feeling guilt and judgement in the church, and why I feel better now and have changed so much. He says he doesn't feel those things and doesn't understand where I'm coming from. Is that even possible to be a TBM of the church and not?
No. He's not necessarily lying, but maybe just can't conceive of a world where you're not always obsessing about being judged for imaginary wrongs by an imaginary parent in the sky. He can use whatever word for that he likes, but he feels it. In Mormonism (or Christianity for that matter), you're never truly OK, never whole, never justified on your own. You might allow yourself to feel OK, but only because you've got Jesus by your side—until the next time you screw up. Mormonism is the poison and the cure.
What's so wrong with relieving himself? That "victorianism" is what hurts you...not his doing it. Why judge him harshly. Unless he's not satisfying you.
Emily:
I didn't want to talk bad about my husband before. But I have no one to talk to now without getting my family involved, which I'm not ready to do even though they have all left the church (except for my brother). This morning I found out that my DH has started looking for porn online again and masterbating behind my back. Five years ago I found out he had done it two occasions before during our marriage and that his sex addiction problem was much worse than he disclosed before we got married, but this is his first relapse since we went through counseling and he told the Bishop. He told me I'm the only reason we got married in the temple and that he didn't continue down the path he was on. After I told him I was leaving the church, the first things he questioned me on were mostly all sex related. And he started making weird comments like "Without God what would keep a person from going out and sleeping with a bunch of people?" and things like that. I tried to explain to him that for me it has nothing to do with God and is about respect. Yet when I ask him about what reasons he has to not do those things, he says it's just because of the church. I told him that hurts my feelings and it should be about our marriage commitment to one another as well. He voiced his concerns that he thinks I wouldn't be apostating right now if it weren't for his sex addiction and the screw ups he has made. I told him that it's not true and is actually quite egotistical of him. But at the same time I am worried about what path he will go down if he does leave the church. If he's already having a few doubts about the church because I've left, and the first thing he does is fall back into his old ways how bad will things get? I've often wondered how he felt worthy to do all the things he's done as a priesthood holder without really repenting first. He argued with me that he had repented, just he hadn't told the bishop everything. Now I feel like my husband doesn't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously and that's why it's a non-issue for him. I guess it could be worse and he could be an alcoholic or druggie or something. I felt jipped 5 years ago when I found out about all of his skeletons, that I didn't really know who I had been married to for 4 1/2 years, but we worked through it. Now he's saying he feels jipped now that I'm leaving the church, that he didn't really know who I was. I told him I know what that feels like. But that I think it's completely different since I've been mislead and lied to myself about what I was believing. I asked him today how he could wear his garments and not feel guilty about what he was doing, he said it doesn't faze him at all. I asked him where the Holy Ghost was, and he says he doesn't know. I'm so confused. I want him to leave the church, but I'm worried about who he will really become. It seems he really has no moral compass. He even said he would want to drop out of school, live off of the government, and do things he wants all day like work on cars if he lost his belief in God. He's really becoming someone I don't like.
Mormonstories.org has several podcasts about sexuality by certified therapists (not church leaders who have no training whatsoever, no basis in reality or science whatsoever). You can educate yourself about this and your DH can also.
[ ] My DH used a similar statement on me - not because he wants to go sleep around, but because he needs a god in his worldview and thinks everyone needs one or society would break down. You are right, respect is better than obedience to commandments.
[ ] It sounds like you take sin, guilt and repentance seriously. Does repentance really have to go through the priesthood channels? If you know JS was a fraud and didn't have the priesthood, why do you think DH needs to go through those channels for repentance?
[ ] do you believe in the HG? Why is it important to you?
Since there are five kids involved, it may be time to find a professional to help out. As Mormons, many of us found ourselves relying on untrained, non-professionals to help with a myriad of problems. There are very good, trained people who know how to help deal with such complicated matters. The church can do a number on marriages, you only have to read here for a week or two to see how challenging it is for people. Best of luck!
Emily:
I didn't want to talk bad about my husband before. But I have no one to talk to now without getting my family involved, which I'm not ready to do even though they have all left the church (except for my brother). This morning I found out that my DH has started looking for porn online again and masterbating behind my back. Five years ago I found out he had done it two occasions before during our marriage and that his sex addiction problem was much worse than he disclosed before we got married, but this is his first relapse since we went through counseling and he told the Bishop. He told me I'm the only reason we got married in the temple and that he didn't continue down the path he was on. After I told him I was leaving the church, the first things he questioned me on were mostly all sex related. And he started making weird comments like "Without God what would keep a person from going out and sleeping with a bunch of people?" and things like that. I tried to explain to him that for me it has nothing to do with God and is about respect. Yet when I ask him about what reasons he has to not do those things, he says it's just because of the church. I told him that hurts my feelings and it should be about our marriage commitment to one another as well. He voiced his concerns that he thinks I wouldn't be apostating right now if it weren't for his sex addiction and the screw ups he has made. I told him that it's not true and is actually quite egotistical of him. But at the same time I am worried about what path he will go down if he does leave the church. If he's already having a few doubts about the church because I've left, and the first thing he does is fall back into his old ways how bad will things get? I've often wondered how he felt worthy to do all the things he's done as a priesthood holder without really repenting first. He argued with me that he had repented, just he hadn't told the bishop everything. Now I feel like my husband doesn't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously and that's why it's a non-issue for him. I guess it could be worse and he could be an alcoholic or druggie or something. I felt jipped 5 years ago when I found out about all of his skeletons, that I didn't really know who I had been married to for 4 1/2 years, but we worked through it. Now he's saying he feels jipped now that I'm leaving the church, that he didn't really know who I was. I told him I know what that feels like. But that I think it's completely different since I've been mislead and lied to myself about what I was believing. I asked him today how he could wear his garments and not feel guilty about what he was doing, he said it doesn't faze him at all. I asked him where the Holy Ghost was, and he says he doesn't know. I'm so confused. I want him to leave the church, but I'm worried about who he will really become. It seems he really has no moral compass. He even said he would want to drop out of school, live off of the government, and do things he wants all day like work on cars if he lost his belief in God. He's really becoming someone I don't like.
[ ] okay, porn and masturbating do not a sex addiction make. Sorry, that one is a church teaching gone haywire. Sex addiction is many partners, risky situations, etc. Mormonstories.org has several podcasts about sexuality by certified therapists (not church leaders who have no training whatsoever, no basis in reality or science whatsoever). You can educate yourself about this and your DH can also.
[ ] My DH used a similar statement on me - not because he wants to go sleep around, but because he needs a god in his worldview and thinks everyone needs one or society would break down. You are right, respect is better than obedience to commandments.
[ ] It sounds like you take sin, guilt and repentance seriously. Does repentance really have to go through the priesthood channels? If you know JS was a fraud and didn't have the priesthood, why do you think DH needs to go through those channels for repentance?
[ ] do you believe in the HG? Why is it important to you?
[ ] okay, that's a shocker.
Okay you have to be patient with me since I've only been "out" for a week. Maybe the term sex addict is too strong for porn and masturbation. Although he was involved in touching younger female family members and then masturbating when he was a teen as well. But even without the church I still am not okay with it and my DH knows that. I'm fine with the masturbating, it's that he feel like he needs to look at other women and that he needs to sneak around and hide it that bugs me. Porn is very degrading and damaging to my self-esteem and to women in general, I don't need a church to tell me that. I will look at the podcasts though.
I honestly don't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously. I also don't believe in the Holy Ghost. I was talking in reference to his obedience to his beliefs in the church. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. I was trying to point out to him that he doesn't believe in the church as he says he does if these things don't matter to him.
My point in all of this is that if he is using the church as his moral compass and even with it is having all of these problems, what really will happen to him if he does leave? Is he going to start cheating on me with real women?
I think that a lot of men in the church are conditioned to be programmed by someone mo' smarter than them.
This conditioning breeds a mindset that has a lot shorter list of items to deal with than someone who makes ALL of their own decisions.
When faced with so many more decisions to be dealt with---smoke, or not - drink, or not, fornicate indiscriminately, or not, and so on down the moral list and whatever other list the bretheren used to cover, a lot of guys get weak in the knees facing that situation, so they maintain their meek, obedient profile by staying in the open arms of LDS, Inc. Even though they probably are well aware of the lies.
It's like being in the military or working for a large company and suddenly you are faced with having to be in business for yourself. It is supremely scary to start down a path that you have never even been told about, much less ever even been there before.
Help him. Support him. Baby steps. With your patient help and support, he can learn to follow a path of decency that he himself blazed for himself (or more correctly - yourselves). In the long run, he will have much more to be proud of because he did it his own self with you...no big bretheren required.
What I read doesn't really describe sexual addiction (like someone else said). The church thinks that masturbating will lead to sexual addicton, and even turn someone gay. NOT SO.
As a matter of fact, there are several studies out there that show masturbation is actually quite healthy, in that it helps reduce prostate cancer. For women, it can help them KNOW their body, what they like, what they don't like. They can help their partner help them obtain an orgasm. I've been shocked at how many Mormon women have never experienced an orgasm, and are even embarrassed to admit that they have had one if they did.
While watching "porn" videos, may be offensive to you, they may also be providing the training (right or wrong) for your husband. In other-words, he may be learning new things that he may want to try by himself, or with you. (I came around, and did try to watch some of my dh's vids... I was really turned OFF by some of them, while others helped me to discover areas that I wasn't aware of, and what was a good fantasy to try.)
The idea that he'll go sleep around with others... believe it or not, that can be a normal guy's (and gal's) fantasy for learning more about sex. Yes, my husband throws it out in our marriage too. Not that it's ok, and not that it's right by any means (that idea destroyed one of Newt's marriages, and that's in the news lately). However, I think those who have a higher sex drive have that fantasy. (Don't take my word for it... I'm not a professional in sexuality... just birthing)
The other "threats" I think are his way of saying he's scared. He's not sure what he believes, and is scared that the Mormon dogma is correct - without Mormonism, he'll end up in the gutter, a druggie, a whore (jiggalo [sp]), or worse. It's time to point out people who aren't Mormon who've done GREAT and WONDERFUL things.
Yes, you can point out Mother Theresa. No, she wasn't 'without God', as she was Catholic. But it may help to open his eyes. He likes working on cars... well there's a good place to start looking. Do a search for one of his "idols" and show him how they 'stay the course'. Professional drivers and mechanics can't just live off the government. They can't be drunk all the time (though it may not be uncommon for them to get drunk at times). In fact, most professional drivers have a "Zero tolerance" for any drug or alcohol in their blood at their work place.
In my slightly hued opinion, you are just starting down this road, and it's fairly early. More therapy might help, it might not. I just hope you are able to work things out. Remember, TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF!
The leadership are and have been quite fascinated with masturbation. They even interview innocent little kids and bring it up, which is really disgusting to me. I can't help but think that many SP's and bishops actually get some jollies from talking about this in interviews.
I think a sex addiction is usually caused by a forced suppression of what really is natural and healthy. I've learned over the years from talking with and reading personal stories that in many cases when a man leaves the church and leaves behind its made up "moral" code, what might have been an almost obsessive fascination with porn completely goes away on its own.
RationalGuy:
The leadership are and have been quite fascinated with masturbation. They even interview innocent little kids and bring it up, which is really disgusting to me. I can't help but think that many SP's and bishops actually get some jollies from talking about this in interviews.
Yes, there are examples where that has been the case, and those are only the reported ones.
Okay you have to be patient with me since I've only been "out" for a week. Maybe the term sex addict is too strong for porn and masturbation. Although he was involved in touching younger female family members and then masturbating when he was a teen as well. But even without the church I still am not okay with it and my DH knows that. I'm fine with the masturbating, it's that he feel like he needs to look at other women and that he needs to sneak around and hide it that bugs me.Porn is very degrading and damaging to my self-esteem and to women in general, I don't need a church to tell me that. I will look at the podcasts though.
I honestly don't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously. I also don't believe in the Holy Ghost. I was talking in reference to his obedience to his beliefs in the church. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. I was trying to point out to him that he doesn't believe in the church as he says he does if these things don't matter to him.
My point in all of this is that if he is using the church as his moral compass and even with it is having all of these problems, what really will happen to him if he does leave? Is he going to start cheating on me with real women?
() Well, please be assured that we understand. It's a shocker to have your spiritual foundations ripped out from under your feet. Somehow, there have been many of us who seem to feel like we're being attacked at first. That's not our intent. Really! I know I was trying to just point out that the church has tenacles that reach areas that we may not even be aware of during our escape from the rubble left from the destruction of our foundation. (does that even make sense?)
() Yes! This would be very disconcerting. I would definitely watch him closely. But then, I'm biased as I was a victim of a sexual preditor when I was only 3. It would scare me to death to know that my dh had "molested" his younger female relatives. And yet, was it just the normal curiosity? What makes you a girl? What makes me a guy? (Probably NOT being a teen offender) I have absolutely no good adivce for you here, other than to seek out a professional healer. I have been VERY blessed in that my dh KNOWS my feelings in this area, and is very careful to not even tell me his fantasies IF he has any with young girls.
() I totally felt the same way. And, for the most part, still do. Yet, it was through one of the many that my husband had hidden, that I found help for me to find my labido after it had been totally absent for more than a year. (NO, it did not mean I was a lesbian, but it did mean that it gave me ideas to help get ME in the mood - and to be honest, at first it really turned me off)
() Like I said in an earlier post, he may be afraid, and if you start wondering IF he'll "mess around", he may do just that. If, on the other hand you point out upstanding citizens who do the things he's interested in, it may help him find a better moral compass than the Mormon Church.
I am sorry that you are in this situation. None of it is easy. You are fresh out, mentally, and I can tell you that you are going to probably experience soooo many different roller coaster emotions as you begin to untangle yourself from the lifetime of brainwashing that you have endured.
I just want to challenge your thinking on the sexual sin aspect that you are dealing with regarding your husband. Bear with me.
It took me nearly a decade of being out of church for my beliefs and feelings regarding porn and masturbation to slowly change. I think that you have been so indoctrinated for soooo long in the church that it can be difficult to look at these things objectively.
I had a failed marriage to a TBM before my disaffection and we 'struggled' with these issues constantly. He would do the same things you said, 'behind my back' (what choice did he have?), and I would find out, and we would have to deal with it, work with the bishop, etc. It was so difficult for me, I took it as a personal insult that he would 'need' these outside sources of stimulation. I participated in helping him to feel that it was a vile, degrading, disgusting, unnatural, addictive and shameful thing he was doing, and that he was jeoparodizing our marriage and sealing by doing so. After all, I was able to make it through the day without giving in to such vile temptation, why couldn't he? Because I am a woman, he is a man, and we are biologically wired COMPLETELY different.
All men masturbate. Period. Most men have in the past, or currently, look at porn. They are visual creatures. Generally speaking, there is a physiologic sexual drive in them that most women cannot fully comprehend, or appreciate. The male need for 'release' is as valid as the female's need for emotional connection and communication. It took me a long time to view it this way. This is the physical, objective idea behind porn and masturbation use.
The idea that (universally practiced) masturbation is sinful or unnatural is completely added by the church. (many religions, not just the morg) We are taught from a very young age that it is immoral and unnatural. Looking back, I believe that 95% of our 'struggle' with this issue in my previous marriage was total fabrication by the church. We created the struggle. We made the situation so much worse and painful because of how we were trained to feel about it. Honestly, it's possible that I could still be married, if we didn't tack on all the guilt and betrayal to the occasional porn use and masturbation.
I am not saying you should love porn. Or even be comfortable with it. Chances are, you might never be. You are a woman. It's not really what floats your boat. That's ok. But, in the next decade for you, you are going to be attempting to untangle what are your true feelings and what was implanted there by the church....on every single issue that affects your life, including this one. Things will pop up that surprise you. It will take time. You only have to open yourself up to the possibility of being objective about your biases. In return, you will learn more about your authentic self than you ever knew was possible.
I do wish you luck on your journey out. Take it slow, and remember, we are here for you whenever you need us! There are so many that are in such similar circumstances, I have been helped much more than I could possibly hope to help others.
Okay you have to be patient with me since I've only been "out" for a week. Maybe the term sex addict is too strong for porn and masturbation. Although he was involved in touching younger female family members and then masturbating when he was a teen as well. But even without the church I still am not okay with it and my DH knows that. I'm fine with the masturbating, it's that he feel like he needs to look at other women and that he needs to sneak around and hide it that bugs me.Porn is very degrading and damaging to my self-esteem and to women in general, I don't need a church to tell me that. I will look at the podcasts though.
I honestly don't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously. I also don't believe in the Holy Ghost. I was talking in reference to his obedience to his beliefs in the church. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. I was trying to point out to him that he doesn't believe in the church as he says he does if these things don't matter to him.
My point in all of this is that if he is using the church as his moral compass and even with it is having all of these problems, what really will happen to him if he does leave? Is he going to start cheating on me with real women?
() Well, please be assured that we understand. It's a shocker to have your spiritual foundations ripped out from under your feet. Somehow, there have been many of us who seem to feel like we're being attacked at first. That's not our intent. Really! I know I was trying to just point out that the church has tenacles that reach areas that we may not even be aware of during our escape from the rubble left from the destruction of our foundation. (does that even make sense?)
() Yes! This would be very disconcerting. I would definitely watch him closely. But then, I'm biased as I was a victim of a sexual preditor when I was only 3. It would scare me to death to know that my dh had "molested" his younger female relatives. And yet, was it just the normal curiosity? What makes you a girl? What makes me a guy? (Probably NOT being a teen offender) I have absolutely no good adivce for you here, other than to seek out a professional healer. I have been VERY blessed in that my dh KNOWS my feelings in this area, and is very careful to not even tell me his fantasies IF he has any with young girls.
() I totally felt the same way. And, for the most part, still do. Yet, it was through one of the many that my husband had hidden, that I found help for me to find my labido after it had been totally absent for more than a year. (NO, it did not mean I was a lesbian, but it did mean that it gave me ideas to help get ME in the mood - and to be honest, at first it really turned me off)
() Like I said in an earlier post, he may be afraid, and if you start wondering IF he'll "mess around", he may do just that. If, on the other hand you point out upstanding citizens who do the things he's interested in, it may help him find a better moral compass than the Mormon Church.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you clarified it. I'm obviously still very frigid.
I'm scared to dig even deeper and find out if it was molestation or merely curiosity. Considering we had 3 little girls at the time and now have 5. I've had to work through a lot of issues it created. It took me a long time to stop worrying.
I feel like there's ways to explore sexuality without seeing other people engage in it and learning from them. I really feel like porn forms unrealistic expectations. I don't need my husband wishing I looked differently than I do or expecting me to be able to enjoy what another woman does. How would he feel if I decided his plumbing was too small or inadequate, because of what I saw on porn?
He claims he uses porn because I'm unwilling to engage in sexual activities with him on some occasions and that he needs visual stimulation while masturbating. Besides the fact that we do have a 6 month old baby and I am sleep deprived and would rather not be woken up when I actually do get to sleep. And instead of putting the kids to bed early and romanticizing me once in a while, he thinks he should be able to ask for it any time day or night and get it. Without making sure I have plenty of time to be ready and satisfied as well. I guess my point is that he's a selfish lover and his claims have no basis. If he told me he needed help avoiding porn I definitely wouldn't turn him down. He says he has already looked at porn twice this week, yet we have had sex 5 out of the last 7 days. And he didn't even ask me for sex the days we didn't. Truth is he's lying to me and trying to put the blame on me, because he would rather look at other women. I consider that being addicted and harmful to our marriage. Especially considering he's not doing it to make our marriage better in any way, it's purely for his own personal satisfaction.
I probably should point out that my parents divorced when I was 3 because of my father's infidelity. My DH constantly stresses that this ruined my ability to have a normal marriage relationship. Well if he had never given me any reason not to trust him, it would be a non-issue.
Okay, after re-reading what I just wrote I will agree we need counseling.
Okay you have to be patient with me since I've only been "out" for a week. Maybe the term sex addict is too strong for porn and masturbation. Although he was involved in touching younger female family members and then masturbating when he was a teen as well. But even without the church I still am not okay with it and my DH knows that. I'm fine with the masturbating, it's that he feel like he needs to look at other women and that he needs to sneak around and hide it that bugs me.Porn is very degrading and damaging to my self-esteem and to women in general, I don't need a church to tell me that. I will look at the podcasts though.
I honestly don't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously. I also don't believe in the Holy Ghost. I was talking in reference to his obedience to his beliefs in the church. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. I was trying to point out to him that he doesn't believe in the church as he says he does if these things don't matter to him.
My point in all of this is that if he is using the church as his moral compass and even with it is having all of these problems, what really will happen to him if he does leave? Is he going to start cheating on me with real women?
() Well, please be assured that we understand. It's a shocker to have your spiritual foundations ripped out from under your feet. Somehow, there have been many of us who seem to feel like we're being attacked at first. That's not our intent. Really! I know I was trying to just point out that the church has tenacles that reach areas that we may not even be aware of during our escape from the rubble left from the destruction of our foundation. (does that even make sense?)
() Yes! This would be very disconcerting. I would definitely watch him closely. But then, I'm biased as I was a victim of a sexual preditor when I was only 3. It would scare me to death to know that my dh had "molested" his younger female relatives. And yet, was it just the normal curiosity? What makes you a girl? What makes me a guy? (Probably NOT being a teen offender) I have absolutely no good adivce for you here, other than to seek out a professional healer. I have been VERY blessed in that my dh KNOWS my feelings in this area, and is very careful to not even tell me his fantasies IF he has any with young girls.
() I totally felt the same way. And, for the most part, still do. Yet, it was through one of the many that my husband had hidden, that I found help for me to find my labido after it had been totally absent for more than a year. (NO, it did not mean I was a lesbian, but it did mean that it gave me ideas to help get ME in the mood - and to be honest, at first it really turned me off)
() Like I said in an earlier post, he may be afraid, and if you start wondering IF he'll "mess around", he may do just that. If, on the other hand you point out upstanding citizens who do the things he's interested in, it may help him find a better moral compass than the Mormon Church.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you clarified it. I'm obviously still very frigid.
I'm scared to dig even deeper and find out if it was molestation or merely curiosity. Considering we had 3 little girls at the time and now have 5. I've had to work through a lot of issues it created. It took me a long time to stop worrying.
I feel like there's ways to explore sexuality without seeing other people engage in it and learning from them. I really feel like porn forms unrealistic expectations. I don't need my husband wishing I looked differently than I do or expecting me to be able to enjoy what another woman does. How would he feel if I decided his plumbing was too small or inadequate, because of what I saw on porn?
He claims he uses porn because I'm unwilling to engage in sexual activities with him on some occasions and that he needs visual stimulation while masturbating. Besides the fact that we do have a 6 month old baby and I am sleep deprived and would rather not be woken up when I actually do get to sleep. And instead of putting the kids to bed early and romanticizing me once in a while, he thinks he should be able to ask for it any time day or night and get it. Without making sure I have plenty of time to be ready and satisfied as well. I guess my point is that he's a selfish lover and his claims have no basis. If he told me he needed help avoiding porn I definitely wouldn't turn him down. He says he has already looked at porn twice this week, yet we have had sex 5 out of the last 7 days. And he didn't even ask me for sex the days we didn't. Truth is he's lying to me and trying to put the blame on me, because he would rather look at other women. I consider that being addicted and harmful to our marriage. Especially considering he's not doing it to make our marriage better in any way, it's purely for his own personal satisfaction.
I probably should point out that my parents divorced when I was 3 because of my father's infidelity. My DH constantly stresses that this ruined my ability to have a normal marriage relationship. Well if he had never given me any reason not to trust him, it would be a non-issue.
Okay, after re-reading what I just wrote I will agree we need counseling.
I hope this isn't TMI, but I'm going to share some of my personal life on this same issue between me and my wife.
I started masturbating to porn when I was twelve years old. I did it all the way up to my mission, abstained while I was on my mission and by the time I'd been home two weeks, I was so sexually starved that I was almost out of control. Yet, I truly was a good kid. When I did finally get married, the masturbation thing got locked up in a box for about the first 3 or 4 years of marriage. By that point we had two kids and my (now ex) wife was totally wrapped up in them. Sex became a lot less frequent and over time I began to feel like I was always "bothering" her when I wanted sex. It began to feel like when I did get sex it was always "charity" sex. "Okay, okay, I know you need sex, lets get this over with." Over time, I got to the point where I didn't even want to have sex with her any more and preferred porn and masturbation. Porn never said no. Porn never used sex to control my behavior. Honestly, I'm not really sure she even realized she was using it to control me. She dived more and more into the church and the more TBM she got, the less frequent sex became. The real problem is we couldn't talk about it. It was a taboo subject which rested in a pool of silence.
At around 19 years of marriage, I was starting to consider cheating on her, and that's when I decided I need to get counseling. I confessed to her that I had a problem and was going to go get help with it. I was fortunate enough to get one of the premiere sex addiction counselors in the state. What he told me absolutely floored me! He said, you don't have a sex addiction problem...You have marital problems that is requiring you to take care of your needs with masturbation. The porn is the solution you've chosen. It is considerably safer than having illicit sex. My wife definitely saw this as me cheating on her. What little emotional connection we did have she shut down completely. A few months prior to our divorce she said to me, "I don't think you should ever touch me in a sexual way, except when we are going to have sex." WTF?! I've always taken time to make sure she was warmed up and really turned on before we ever had sex and it was extremely rare for her not to have one or two orgasms. How the hell was I supposed to know when we were going to have sex?
That comment broke me. It broke the marriage. She completely bankrupted her emotional account with me in one moment. Her lack of emotional connection affected me so profoundly that a couple months later, I had a mild heart attack brought on by the stress of trying to maintain the relationship. Fortunately, there was no permanent damage and the Doctor got really blunt with me. He said, "This has all the symptoms of a stress heart attack. What is going on in your life?" When I told him about the marital stress he said to me, "I can't advise you to get divorced, but I can tell you that if you continue in this relationship this way, I can almost guarantee that you will be dead inside of two years. I tried for six more months to make it work, went to counseling, and got nowhere. I was stuck with Church Social Services which was utterly useless. The moment they found out I'd looked at porn, they took her side and that was that. Nothing I said had any relevance anymore. Oh, and when my "sex addiction" counselor told me that my wife was going to have to participate in the counseling sessions, her comment was "This is your problem. You deal with it."
Her response was to dive into the church even more than she already was. She was holding down two ward, one stake and one regional calling all at the same time and on Saturday mornings, (our usual inimate time) she decided was better served by attending a temple session every week. One Saturday, while she was attending the temple, I packed my bags and moved into a room I rented from my sister.
The weird thing is I don't really blame her for all of this. I actually blame the sexual indoctrination she grew up with. She grew up in a strict Mormon home and she it was made clear in her home that sex was evil, wicked, and taboo. I consider that indoctrination to be sexual abuse.
Fast forward 5 years. I'm out of the church, in a loving relationship with my significant other, sex is plentiful and awesome and I love her dearly. I occasionally still look at porn and she often watches with me. She enjoys sex, there's no guilt associated with it and it certainly isn't a taboo subject...and I'm finding that I'm pretty "meh" about porn anymore. What I've come to realize is that I was obsessing about sex and porn because I was starving. Now that I am sated, it isn't nearly the big deal it was.
A friend of mine once said, "If there is plenty of sex in your life, it only holds about 10% importance. If you aren't getting enough, it is about 90% important." I've found that it goes far further than that. While the sex is important, it pales to nothing compared to the importance of a strong emotional connection. Love is love, and sex is sex. They aren't the same thing. Without the emotional bonds, sex becomes a poor substitute for love and masturbation becomes a poor substitute for sex.
I don't know if that helps or not, but it may give you some things to think about.
Also remember that this is my experience and you may be dealing with something completely different.
First of all, it's really difficult to talk 'sex addiction' around these parts because we can't agree on the definition. If you ask a TBM 'sex addiction' would be masturbating more than once in your entire life. The same way an alcoholic is anyone who's had more than one drink.
Second of all, I've been around these parts for quite a few years and have gone through my own leaving the church and subsequently jumping off the deep end years. Do I want to be judged by the way I acted in the years after I left the church - no.
Can we go off the deep end and swing too far to the other side when we escape the confines of the church - yes. It takes a little while to find some sort of balance. You're told all your life you can't think of sex or want sex or enjoy sex - and then suddenly you can, but only between certain boundaries - then maybe you realize you don't really have any boundaries. So where do you go? Where do you fit into the spectrum of human sexuality?
Most of the people I know who have left the church are good, upstanding, moral people. I do include myself. I think we would have been good, upstanding, moral people with or without the church. Just perhaps we needed an adjustment period in the in-between.
I've seen a lot of divorces in my years here on Post-Mo. Your husband might really be a jerk. Maybe the church is the only thing giving him any morals at all. I mean really, do you want to be with this guy if he's that easily persuaded? It's like I've seen mentioned here several times - if religion is the only thing keeping you from killing and raping please stay religious! Your husband might be the king of the douche-canoe without the church in his life. (He kind of sounds like it from the information you've given here.) Is it better to remain Mrs. Douche Canoe and live a religious lie for the rest of your life? I say no, it's not. I guess you will have to make that decision in time.
p.s. I may be known to look at some porn every now and then and can assure you I don't judge my husband by what I see on-line.
Dh and I have had LOTS of problems in this arena before I left the church. Since I left, we talk a lot more, but I have had to come to the conclusion that *I* am broken, and we are trying to seek out medical help for that.
I remember when Nolongerasheeple went through his heart-attack, and divorce... OMG was that really 5 years ago?!? There were a LOT of conversations here and on RFM about sex, the differences between men and women, and what was really porn and sex addictions.
But one of the things that kept coming back to me was an episode of Dr. Oz. 5 secrets men don't want their wives to know. My husband and I watched the show together. I was surprised that there was very little that we learned from that show. However, my dh was also very adamant that most men don't want their wives to know, because most women would feel "threatened".
So, I highly suggest you and your husband watch it together, talk about it, and see if it helps to get past the bedroom issues of the marriage.
Reading your follow up, sometimes it takes a while for a guy to realize that YOU need some "filling" too. With 5 kidlets, the youngest being only 6 months old, tells me you aren't even getting a full night's sleep. In order for your mental health to be at it's optimum, you need at least 4 hours of uninterrupted sleep! 4 hours! If your babies are like mine, you are lucky to get two.
Take some time for a bubble bath (if you like them, I personally find them to be frustrating because I'm doing "nothing" and thinking about all the stuff that needs doing). Plan a night that HE has to do the whole evening routine... help with homework, fix dinner, bathe the kids, put the kids to bed, clean up their evening mess, do the dishes, and any other thing you are dragging yourself around to do (I am NOT saying you feel like you are in a life of drudgery. I sure didn't back then, but gaul darn! I WAS TIRED! I had 7 kids 10 and under! So, yeah, I can totally relate to the stage you are at).
While he's doing all the evening work, take at least the two hours between feedings and do something JUST FOR YOU.
That afore mentioned bubble bath. Put together a puzzle. Go for a swim. What ever you find relaxing. Maybe even take a nap.
In other words, you need to take care of you. Having sex, making love, takes energy, and if all your energy is being put into the kids and the housework, making love is nothing more than 'just sex', and isn't even enjoyable. And not enjoying sex is also a sin! Sex is supposed to be fun!
Keep the open mind! Leaving Mormonism can be fun too!
I don't know if that helps or not, but it may give you some things to think about.
Also remember that this is my experience and you may be dealing with something completely different.
Max
It is from reading posts like these from Max, and many others, that has allowed me to step back and look at a sensitive subject that I was unable to be objective about previously.
I have had more compassion for my ex, and for myself, as a result. (For the church? Not so much...)
I don't know if that helps or not, but it may give you some things to think about.
Also remember that this is my experience and you may be dealing with something completely different.
Max
It is from reading posts like these from Max, and many others, that has allowed me to step back and look at a sensitive subject that I was unable to be objective about previously.
I have had more compassion for my ex, and for myself, as a result. (For the church? Not so much...)
I am female. I don't care if my boyfriend masturbates. It doesn't take anything away from me. It's a different sensation for him - since he doesn't do it the same way I handle him - and if he wants to have some fun, his way, at his pace, with his pressure and variation, who am I to tell him it's not okay to feel nice?? Not only does it not bother me if he goes into another room or if I am in another room and he masturbates, but I happen to find it hot if he does it while I'm there. I appreciate someone who is able to feel pleasure and joy, and I am not really interested in someone who can't love themself. To me, a man who feels the urge to masturbate and represses it is weird. And unhappy. No thanks.
I am not bothered by porn. If he wants to look at a magazine, have at it. He is welcome to fantasize to his heart's content about any airbrushed babe in a magazine, just as I am free to fantasize about an airbrushed Johnny Depp or Henry Rollins. Would I really want to have sex with Henry Rollins and Johnny Depp? Of course. But I'd also be weirded out about screwing a stranger, so I wouldn't do it. And I'm not interested in cheating on someone. I don't view looking at porn mags as cheating. I have had male friends in the past - men who I have NOT been involved with, they were simply friends - and when we've gone to a bookstore together sometimes we have wound up not only looking at the same poetry and fiction books and magazines, but looking at porn mags or erotica books together and comparing tastes. I've even passed my erotica books off to one male friend when I was done with it. I do not consider that porn is degrading to women. I do not consider that the human body is shameful, or that our natural biological drives are disgusting. I just don't.
I have also had gay male friends. We have been known to look at some magazines together and talk about what we like and don't like. It's just casual conversation along the lines of, "I like chocolate yogurt, do you? No, I prefer ice cream with graham crackers on top. Oh, really - hmm, that's interesting."
Sex is not some scary thing that needs to be demonized. It's just a freakin' part of life, like eating and drinking and pooping and blowing your nose. Only more fun.
I am not bothered if my boyfriend wants to watch porn. If it's keeping him from helping around the house, then sure I'd be irritated. If it's something he wants to do on the occasional evening or when he's relaxing during the day, whatever. It's pretty obvious that I don't look anything like the women in the porn videos (well, most of them - though you can find some of everything). I also like to watch porn sometimes. I don't expect him to look like the guys in the videos. A lot of the stuff in porn videos is ridiculous, and there's so much bad acting it's insane. But there is some good stuff, too - and some videos with realistic looking bodies.
Viewing porn is not the same thing as sex with a partner. Masturbation is not the same thing as sex with a partner. Neither 'takes the place of' the other person. It's just a totally different thing. And it doesn't have to be threatening. It is true that if there are intimacy problems or if one person isn't in the mood for sex due to emotional/psychological/physical issues, there will be an increase in porn consumption or masturbation. What else are you gonna do, bail on the relationship or cheat? Does it make sense totally deny yourself all sexual pleasure because your partner isn't up for it? Why? Again, I don't consider it dirty or shameful or something that is 'only okay if I'm doing this sexual activity for the other person.' Nah.
It sounds like there are other issues worth exploring in joint counseling with a non-LDS-indoctrinated therapist. Maybe your husband is a total psycho, I don't know him so who knows? What I do know is that in most relationships it is not an indication of anything weird or unhealthy if the male likes to view porn at times or masturbates. It pretty much means he's normal.
I hate how the church lays the guilt on men for normal things. I don't think the church should be in bed with people.
Again, based on what you said re: your husband, and some veiled hints about his 'past,' there may be other things going on.... but I think that 'if a man looks at porn it means he wants to cheat on me, and wants someone who looks different than I do' is generally incorrect.
I am female. I don't care if my boyfriend masturbates. It doesn't take anything away from me. It's a different sensation for him - since he doesn't do it the same way I handle him - and if he wants to have some fun, his way, at his pace, with his pressure and variation, who am I to tell him it's not okay to feel nice?? Not only does it not bother me if he goes into another room or if I am in another room and he masturbates, but I happen to find it hot if he does it while I'm there. I appreciate someone who is able to feel pleasure and joy, and I am not really interested in someone who can't love themself. To me, a man who feels the urge to masturbate and represses it is weird. And unhappy. No thanks.
I am not bothered by porn. If he wants to look at a magazine, have at it. He is welcome to fantasize to his heart's content about any airbrushed babe in a magazine, just as I am free to fantasize about an airbrushed Johnny Depp or Henry Rollins. Would I really want to have sex with Henry Rollins and Johnny Depp? Of course. But I'd also be weirded out about screwing a stranger, so I wouldn't do it. And I'm not interested in cheating on someone. I don't view looking at porn mags as cheating. I have had male friends in the past - men who I have NOT been involved with, they were simply friends - and when we've gone to a bookstore together sometimes we have wound up not only looking at the same poetry and fiction books and magazines, but looking at porn mags or erotica books together and comparing tastes. I've even passed my erotica books off to one male friend when I was done with it. I do not consider that porn is degrading to women. I do not consider that the human body is shameful, or that our natural biological drives are disgusting. I just don't.
I have also had gay male friends. We have been known to look at some magazines together and talk about what we like and don't like. It's just casual conversation along the lines of, "I like chocolate yogurt, do you? No, I prefer ice cream with graham crackers on top. Oh, really - hmm, that's interesting."
Sex is not some scary thing that needs to be demonized. It's just a freakin' part of life, like eating and drinking and pooping and blowing your nose. Only more fun.
I am not bothered if my boyfriend wants to watch porn. If it's keeping him from helping around the house, then sure I'd be irritated. If it's something he wants to do on the occasional evening or when he's relaxing during the day, whatever. It's pretty obvious that I don't look anything like the women in the porn videos (well, most of them - though you can find some of everything). I also like to watch porn sometimes. I don't expect him to look like the guys in the videos. A lot of the stuff in porn videos is ridiculous, and there's so much bad acting it's insane. But there is some good stuff, too - and some videos with realistic looking bodies.
Viewing porn is not the same thing as sex with a partner. Masturbation is not the same thing as sex with a partner. Neither 'takes the place of' the other person. It's just a totally different thing. And it doesn't have to be threatening. It is true that if there are intimacy problems or if one person isn't in the mood for sex due to emotional/psychological/physical issues, there will be an increase in porn consumption or masturbation. What else are you gonna do, bail on the relationship or cheat? Does it make sense totally deny yourself all sexual pleasure because your partner isn't up for it? Why? Again, I don't consider it dirty or shameful or something that is 'only okay if I'm doing this sexual activity for the other person.' Nah.
It sounds like there are other issues worth exploring in joint counseling with a non-LDS-indoctrinated therapist. Maybe your husband is a total psycho, I don't know him so who knows? What I do know is that in most relationships it is not an indication of anything weird or unhealthy if the male likes to view porn at times or masturbates. It pretty much means he's normal.
I hate how the church lays the guilt on men for normal things. I don't think the church should be in bed with people.
Again, based on what you said re: your husband, and some veiled hints about his 'past,' there may be other things going on.... but I think that 'if a man looks at porn it means he wants to cheat on me, and wants someone who looks different than I do' is generally incorrect.
I am female. I don't care if my boyfriend masturbates. It doesn't take anything away from me. It's a different sensation for him - since he doesn't do it the same way I handle him - and if he wants to have some fun, his way, at his pace, with his pressure and variation, who am I to tell him it's not okay to feel nice?? Not only does it not bother me if he goes into another room or if I am in another room and he masturbates, but I happen to find it hot if he does it while I'm there. I appreciate someone who is able to feel pleasure and joy, and I am not really interested in someone who can't love themself. To me, a man who feels the urge to masturbate and represses it is weird. And unhappy. No thanks.
I am not bothered by porn. If he wants to look at a magazine, have at it. He is welcome to fantasize to his heart's content about any airbrushed babe in a magazine, just as I am free to fantasize about an airbrushed Johnny Depp or Henry Rollins. Would I really want to have sex with Henry Rollins and Johnny Depp? Of course. But I'd also be weirded out about screwing a stranger, so I wouldn't do it. And I'm not interested in cheating on someone. I don't view looking at porn mags as cheating. I have had male friends in the past - men who I have NOT been involved with, they were simply friends - and when we've gone to a bookstore together sometimes we have wound up not only looking at the same poetry and fiction books and magazines, but looking at porn mags or erotica books together and comparing tastes. I've even passed my erotica books off to one male friend when I was done with it. I do not consider that porn is degrading to women. I do not consider that the human body is shameful, or that our natural biological drives are disgusting. I just don't.
I have also had gay male friends. We have been known to look at some magazines together and talk about what we like and don't like. It's just casual conversation along the lines of, "I like chocolate yogurt, do you? No, I prefer ice cream with graham crackers on top. Oh, really - hmm, that's interesting."
Sex is not some scary thing that needs to be demonized. It's just a freakin' part of life, like eating and drinking and pooping and blowing your nose. Only more fun.
I am not bothered if my boyfriend wants to watch porn. If it's keeping him from helping around the house, then sure I'd be irritated. If it's something he wants to do on the occasional evening or when he's relaxing during the day, whatever. It's pretty obvious that I don't look anything like the women in the porn videos (well, most of them - though you can find some of everything). I also like to watch porn sometimes. I don't expect him to look like the guys in the videos. A lot of the stuff in porn videos is ridiculous, and there's so much bad acting it's insane. But there is some good stuff, too - and some videos with realistic looking bodies.
Viewing porn is not the same thing as sex with a partner. Masturbation is not the same thing as sex with a partner. Neither 'takes the place of' the other person. It's just a totally different thing. And it doesn't have to be threatening. It is true that if there are intimacy problems or if one person isn't in the mood for sex due to emotional/psychological/physical issues, there will be an increase in porn consumption or masturbation. What else are you gonna do, bail on the relationship or cheat? Does it make sense totally deny yourself all sexual pleasure because your partner isn't up for it? Why? Again, I don't consider it dirty or shameful or something that is 'only okay if I'm doing this sexual activity for the other person.' Nah.
It sounds like there are other issues worth exploring in joint counseling with a non-LDS-indoctrinated therapist. Maybe your husband is a total psycho, I don't know him so who knows? What I do know is that in most relationships it is not an indication of anything weird or unhealthy if the male likes to view porn at times or masturbates. It pretty much means he's normal.
I hate how the church lays the guilt on men for normal things. I don't think the church should be in bed with people.
Again, based on what you said re: your husband, and some veiled hints about his 'past,' there may be other things going on.... but I think that 'if a man looks at porn it means he wants to cheat on me, and wants someone who looks different than I do' is generally incorrect.
Well said, Jellybean!
I wonder if he's worried about his moral compass because of the guilt from TSCC. Speaking for myself here, I had sex the first time out of wedlock at 18 and ended up marrying him. He was my only one for a long time. After the first time I thought, "Well, I've already done it once. Since I'm gonna have to confess to the bishop anyway, I'm gonna have FUN!!" And I did. Maybe he's taking the same attitude. He's already sinned, might as well just go all out.
Also, after I'd only been with one person for so long, I started wondering what it would be like with someone else. After we got divorced I still had the "might as well have fun" attitude and messed around with a few guys. Meh...sex is what you make of it.
Maybe you can discuss that with him and see if that's what his attitude is about. Tell him that you're willing to spice things up, watch some porn (I do, it mostly just cracks me up, especially the music!), maybe buy some new toys to experiement with. Also, from my experience? You don't have to look like a porn star. You just need to ACT like a porn star. Men dig it.
I dunno, hun. Just hang in there and get creative. You WILL figure this out and you WILL be okay. I promise.
I wonder if he's worried about his moral compass because of the guilt from TSCC.
This is something that didn't take me long to realize, that I no longer had a "moral code" I had to follow. It was a rather strange sensation after being "guilt controlled" all of my life. I could go out and do whatever the hell I wanted. However, I also quickly realized that we don't live in a vacuum either. Behavior too far outside of that which is societally accepted will result in consequences, either social or legal. Even though I was no longer a member of the "One True Church" TM, I still viewed myself as a good person. I've never really tried to be a kind person, I just am. I gave considerable thought to the dilemma and realized that this was one aspect of Christianity that even as an agnostic/atheist there was no reason to throw away. It is "Love thy neighbor as thyself." That gave me a basic fundamental belief to hold onto while I tried to get everything else figured out.
Something amazing happened. In leaving the church, I lost my moral code, but in return I gained a moral compass. I do what I do, because I have evaluated situations and I do them because it seems to be the best thing given the situation that I can or should do. If I'm kind, it is because I think that's best. I'm never deliberately cruel, but I am honest and sometimes the people I'm honest with are offended by things I say. I don't have that happen very often because coupled with my honesty is acceptance. I see most people as "good" and realize that all people have problems. If someone I know is a known pedophile, I can still accept him as a person. He will never be allowed access to my children, nor will I be complicit it handing him access to a child either on purpose or inadvertantly.
You see, once you leave the church (and in my case theism) I realized that I was the one responsible for my behavior and I had to own up and take responsibility for those actions. I also felt like I packed 20 years of maturity growth into about two years.
Emily: Okay you have to be patient with me since I've only been "out" for a week. Maybe the term sex addict is too strong for porn and masturbation. Although he was involved in touching younger female family members and then masturbating when he was a teen as well. But even without the church I still am not okay with it and my DH knows that. I'm fine with the masturbating, it's that he feel like he needs to look at other women and that he needs to sneak around and hide it that bugs me. Porn is very degrading and damaging to my self-esteem and to women in general, I don't need a church to tell me that. I will look at the podcasts though.
I honestly don't take sin, guilt, and repentence seriously. I also don't believe in the Holy Ghost. I was talking in reference to his obedience to his beliefs in the church. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. I was trying to point out to him that he doesn't believe in the church as he says he does if these things don't matter to him.
My point in all of this is that if he is using the church as his moral compass and even with it is having all of these problems, what really will happen to him if he does leave? Is he going to start cheating on me with real women?
Hi, Emily. You have so much going on right now -- no wonder you are feeling overwhelmed. I think that PostMo is a great place for you to ventilate your frustrations and gain your sea legs as you begin to nagivate the world after leaving LDS behind.
You have said that you have been married 9.5 yrs and have 5 children, the youngest of which is 6 months old. Am I remembering all of this correctly? So, step 1 is just to recognize that you have a whole lot of stuff going on! Taking care of such a large family is a big job. Go easy on yourself.
You said he "was involved in touching younger female family members." What does this mean? Is he a pedophile? Or was he a child, playing "doctor" with his cousins?
If him looking at porn and masturbating makes him a sex addict in your eyes, then I very respectfully suggest that you adjust this attitude, pronto. Your statement, "Porn is very degrading and damaging to my self-esteem and to women in general," is simply false. I very strongly suspect that if he were an ideal husband and father in every other respect, you wouldn't be too terribly bothered by him looking at porn and masturbating once in a while. He might be a great guy or a rotten jerk -- I don't know, I never met him, and I'm not married to him dealing with him on a daily basis. I think you need to try to separate his porn and wanking habit from the rest of him when you make these judgements.
I think if you persist in shaming him about his porn and masturbating, you will further drive a wedge between the two of you.
If he is generally a good guy and you love him and want to stay married to him for the long haul, my suggestion is to do your best to let the church stuff slide for a while. You don't have to hash it out all at once. Just give him a hug. Give him the puppy-dog eyes. Tell him you love him and are so grateful for the way he works hard to provide for the family / fixed the doohickey that was broken / walks the dog every morning so you don't have to worry about it / tolerated having your mother visit for three weeks / gave you the afternoon off to get a pedicure.
One problem a lot of us here have had is that once The Truth about the Mormon lie comes into focus for us, we immediately start trying to convert everyone around us into seeing it, too. We wonder, why can't they see the truth? Why are they so blind? Don't they love me enough to want to know that everything they believe is a lie? Maybe they're just stupid! The thing is, they're not stupid. They haven't stopped loving us. They are just on a different path. We need to be just as patient with them as we want them to be with us.
It's difficult. I'm glad you're here to sort things out.
Mormonism teaches that we are all flawed, and guilty, and need the Gospel to save us. If we are silly enough to accept that proposition, it then claims it has some Magic to fix that, which will only cost 10% of our income.
I'd argue that we are all human, and that there is ample evidence that humans come with neural hardwiring that promotes civil behaviour.
Why should it?
Because that enhanced our ancestor's survival prospects.
How often do members say 'I don't know what I'd be capable of without the Church in my life.' That is in effect, and admission that they are moral children, or that they are addicted to an ongoing fix.
This is a defect-centric model of humanity. It assigns grown adults to perpetual childishness, which is so evident in how the Church treats members.
Now am I suggesting humans are perfect and that some seriously messed up individuals don't emerge periodically. No way.
But the Church claims to have a cure for a range of 'problematic human behaviours' that there is simply no evidence to support.
People think faith, repentence, and prayer is going to fix all sorts of things magically. Some families have suffered with ongoing issues for generations, making no progress.
What is the evidence to support their claim? Zilch.
Psychology, on the other hand, offers a range of solutions to a broad range of common human foibles, and it can be demonstrated to show results, in may cases in very short order.
Put another way, religion is like claiming a magic band-aid will fix a punctured tyre.
Far better to get a grip on the real nature of the problem, and get a meaningful solution that is based in science and proven results.
If masturbation becomes a problem in people's lives (a qualified if, I stress), it is at the point where they are self-medicating some distressful state like anxiety or a sense of powerlessness. An orgasm produces a natural 'hit' of endorphines that relieves the uncomfortable state.
Under those conditions only, where sex is being used as one uses a drug like alcohol excessively, the symptom should not be confused with the cause of the problem. Get good advice and don't fall for all the guilt inducing garbage pumped out by Mormonism.
It is possible that your husband may see your shared belief in the Church as keeping his Shadow at bay. Even if he believes that, it is a superstitious and ignorance-based perspective on the underlying issue.
See this for what it is, and get along and get some good professional help to understand his historical behaviour and whether it is an issue that needs attention, or if his misunderstanding has riddled him with a fear that is ill-grounded.
If you want a good read, with all your parenting responsibilities, try to get a copy of Bradshaws book Family Secrets. It will bring about a far less Magical-Thinking perspective on this issue. Dropping belief in Mormonism - the theology is much easier than dumping all the MagicalThinking associated with it, and growing out of that takes some time.
But it is a journey that opens up so much more of your humanity, and makes life richer and more fulfilling.
This is a complicated issue all around. I have some experience with this topic being a therapist in private practice for the past 17 years. Early on while in my internship I did hours at LDS Family Services (not in UT) and eventually worked a few hours each week there while building my practice and agency. I haven't worked there for many years and I am no longer a Mormon. In my experience as an insider at LDSFS there was little training on addiction, sex and otherwise. If a therapist or social worker had training in their graduate program on addiction that was helpful, but it was largely lacking. Not the therapists fault really, but I understand the frustration of people who seek professional services for addiction and get stuck with an untrained therapist.
Now, sex addiction exists. I treat it. I specialize in the treatment of addictions. My nitch is taking a client from addiction into a solid recovery. Because of the addiction work I do I have the opportunity to work with clients for longer periods of time. I think it is too simple to broad brush Mormon "porn addicts" as going to be just fine when they leave the church. Some may be repressed sexually and this may work for some, but the Mormon sex addicts need the same treatment as any other client I have. Whether the addiction began from being in a repressive religion or not, doesn't take away the recovery work ahead. Even LDS "porn addicts", which is actually sex addiction, have to deal with what their behavior has done to them, their families, and all other areas of their life. Honesty with self is the greatest step in recovery. Many times that honesty requires facing truths about religion and marriage/relationships. I find honest addicts in recovery to be some of the most courageous individuals I've ever known.
had married women while they were married to other active members of the church. He couldn't understand this because he was pretty sure that 
+1
