So after being a closet apostate for the past two years my wife and I have decided to live our life and come out of the closet. Living in the closet has been fairly easy and natural since we live far from any family.
My parents are coming to visit and we have already sent them a warm up email that we are at a crossroads with the church and would like to talk to them. They know we have not been to church in about year and that I have historical issues but are not aware I think it's all BS.
My Mom's main defense will be that I need to think with my heart and not my head. She is aware of a few of the issues and I know has struggled with her faith and has serious issues with polygamy. My goal is not to have her leave the church (although that would be awesome), but to try and get her to see how unreliable it is to think with emotion rather than intellect.
I'm sure some of you have dealt with this argument and way of thinking before, what is your best response to a true believer that is using this line of thinking to maintain belief?
I'd ask your mom why she doesn't balance her checkbook with her heart instead of her head if thinking with your heart is more reliable. Why doesn't she do her taxes with her heart, or take a drivers test with her heart, or plan a budget with her heart, or do her grocery shopping with her heart? Why does she look at labels and compare prices instead of just letting her heart make her shopping decisions for her? In fact, why does she think with her head in all the areas of her life where it's important that she make good decisions but when it comes to Mormonism she thinks with her heart instead?
So after being a closet apostate for the past two years my wife and I have decided to live our life and come out of the closet. Living in the closet has been fairly easy and natural since we live far from any family.
My parents are coming to visit and we have already sent them a warm up email that we are at a crossroads with the church and would like to talk to them. They know we have not been to church in about year and that I have historical issues but are not aware I think it's all BS.
My Mom's main defense will be that I need to think with my heart and not my head. She is aware of a few of the issues and I know has struggled with her faith and has serious issues with polygamy. My goal is not to have her leave the church (although that would be awesome), but to try and get her to see how unreliable it is to think with emotion rather than intellect.
I'm sure some of you have dealt with this argument and way of thinking before, what is your best response to a true believer that is using this line of thinking to maintain belief?
You cannot help but think with your heart, or your middle (mammalian) brain. All stimuli are filtered through our emotional middle brains before we allow them to enter into our more evolved logical brains (neo cortex) to analyze in detail. If the stimuli triggers our fight or flight instinct in our mammalian brains, then we either fight or flee and the stimulus never enters into our more highly evolved neo cortex, which is where our critical, analytical, independent thought resides.
This is why we PoMo's often say, "Faith trumps reason" which is another cliche, which is only true if we approach the discussion wrong by triggering our loved one's fight or flight instinct. Faith is a euphamism for herd mentality or group think, which is what most of us rely upon to do our thinking for us when we identify our selves with a larger group or tribe, tribal myths and cliches, standard Mormon answers. Don't settle for them.
When you attack or criticize a particular group, members of that group take it personally, as if you're personally attacking them, which is why your mother taught you to avoid the topics of religion and politics in mixed company. You never know who you're going to offend. When people's whole identity is wrapped up around their religion or political persuasion, then their egos take over their personality. When I was a Mormon, if you said anything negative about Joseph's Myth, you'd have a fight on your hands.
Like an old sage once said,
"Religion is simply a community of people, who gather together on a regular basis to reassure each other that it is okay to continue subscribing to absurdities. But for me it is far better to see the world as it really exists, rather than persist in delusion, no matter how comforting that may seem." Carl Sagan
Don't underestimate the power of "the comforter" aka, the herding instinct in our middle brains. It is VERY powerful.
Aristotle had a name for that rhetorical appeal, pathos. Learn to use it. Learn how to negotiate your way around it without triggering the fight or flight instinct. Do so by not identify yourself as the enemy, an AntiMormon or worse yet an Atheist. Don't identfy yourself as anything, other than an honest human being, seeking honest aswers to your honest questions.
Do so by appealing to her herding instinct, by expressing the love you have for her personally. Reassure her that you love her more than life itself. That none of your feelings about Mormonism have any bearing upon your love for her, which is unconditional, but what is more important is that we don't perpetuate bogus myths, by passing them on to the next generation, without really examining them, just because we inherited them. The unexamined life is not worth living, right?
Ethos, Ethics, another rhetorical appeal.
To get her to access her higher, more evolved brain functions, like logic, conscience and empathy, use the Socratic Method of asking thought provoking questions to appeal to her higher brain functions, Logos, the most important of rhetorical appeals. Questions such as, how do you reconcile Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's well documented practice of polyandry with D&C 132:61-63, which clearly condemns that practice as adultery, punishible by divine destruction?
or How do you reconcile the fact that the Mormon church discriminated against blacks for most of it's history, with God's commandment to love our fellow men as ourselves? Haven't blacks been our fellow men the whole time Mormons were discriminating against them? or
How do you reconcile the fact that God refers to Native Americans as 'Lamanites' 6 times in the D&C, with the DNA evidence that proves that racist theory wrong?
Ultimately you may have to just accept the fact that in your Mother's case, faith may in fact trump reason, in which case you just have to love her the way she is. Don't demand that she adopt your way of thinking before you give her your full measure of love, but insist that be reciprocated. You've got the 11th AoF to back you up and that my friend is your trump card if all else fails. checkmate.
Stan:Do so by not identify yourself as the enemy, an AntiMormon or worse yet an Atheist. Don't identfy yourself as anything, other than an honest human being, seeking honest aswers to your honest questions.
Good stuff, thanks guys.
Stan I think this is a key. My wife and I were having a late night talk in the hot tub last night and both agreed that there is no need to label ourselves as apostate or done with the church forever. Seems like a much better idea to do like you said and only label ourselves as seeking truth wherever it may take us.
Don't think with your brain or your heart, what I learned from JS is that it is best to think with your penis. Now that I think about it, many mormons probably think most of us men left the church because we were thinking with our penises. Just tell your mom something like that, I'm sure she'd appreciate it.
Pretty much everyone thinks with both their heart and their head. People of every religion all over the world think with both their heart and their head and they are led in all sorts of different directions. I might try to steer the conversation towards the reality that there is incredible diversity of belief in the world and that people of every belief system (or no belief system) use their head and heart in making big decisions. Given the diverse beliefs in the world, it makes sense to me to focus less on whether there is only one correct spiritual path for everyone in the world, and focus more on what is the correct spiritual path for me.
If it was me and my parents, I'd try to say something like, "Mom, people all over the world follow their heads and hearts in all sorts of directions and it makes sense to me now to focus less on whether there is one correct path that everyone should be on, and focus more on the path that I am on, and I believe that this [not attending or beleiving in the church, or however you want to say it] is the right path for me."
Maybe if you feed them some awesome food (pizza, perhaps?) they will be in a euphoric state that will help them take the news better. :)
Thanks HG, I will be sure to fatten them up before the chat.
I had been thinking of talking about what you said. I like the example of the Pentecostals. Started a little after Joseph Smith (1900 IIRC) and now has over 115 million followers. Most importantly they believe in receiving confermation from the spirit just like us.
If you really want to get inside someone's head and make them think I've found that the key is to ask them questions instead of tell them answers. By asking them questions you force them to seriously consider the question so they can come up with an answer that doesn't make them look foolish. The key is you're engaging their brain's thinking processes. But if you simply tell them facts and opinions about this and about that it just bounces of their brain and goes nowhere because it doesn't engage their thinking processes. If you don't engage those processes they'll keep them shut down as a defense strategy. I've found that what you say or how you say it is less important than is whether or not you're engaging their thinking processes. Again, ask them questions instead of tell them answers. In my experience, this approach works wonders.
Last I looked, there isn't any brain tissue inside the human heart. Just muscle, veins and artery outlets. Thinking with the heart...is just mormon-speak for....don't use your intelligence...just wander about in the "prophet-following" fog.
So after being a closet apostate for the past two years my wife and I have decided to live our life and come out of the closet. Living in the closet has been fairly easy and natural since we live far from any family.
My parents are coming to visit and we have already sent them a warm up email that we are at a crossroads with the church and would like to talk to them. They know we have not been to church in about year and that I have historical issues but are not aware I think it's all BS.
My Mom's main defense will be that I need to think with my heart and not my head. She is aware of a few of the issues and I know has struggled with her faith and has serious issues with polygamy. My goal is not to have her leave the church (although that would be awesome), but to try and get her to see how unreliable it is to think with emotion rather than intellect.
I'm sure some of you have dealt with this argument and way of thinking before, what is your best response to a true believer that is using this line of thinking to maintain belief?
This really is an old idea thinking with one's heart. Of course biologically it's impossible to think with one's heart or to feel with one's heart. Thinking and feeling all stem from the brain. It's funny how these things have been thought of as coming from the heart. People will say that they love others with all of their hearts but of course that just isn't true as it all originates from the brain. Admittedly it does sound more romantic saying from the heart rather than from the brain. But it is what it is. However, I do think most of us will continue to say I love you from the heart.
If you really want to get inside someone's head and make them think I've found that the key is to ask them questions instead of tell them answers. By asking them questions you force them to seriously consider the question so they can come up with an answer that doesn't make them look foolish. The key is you're engaging their brain's thinking processes. But if you simply tell them facts and opinions about this and about that it just bounces of their brain and goes nowhere because it doesn't engage their thinking processes. If you don't engage those processes they'll keep them shut down as a defense strategy. I've found that what you say or how you say it is less important than is whether or not you're engaging their thinking processes. Again, ask them questions instead of tell them answers. In my experience, this approach works wonders.
Jeff, a somewhat controversial, early pioneer in CULT deprogamming named Ted Patrick also called "Black Lightning" would agree! He also realized the importance of taking victims out of a CULT Environment that would eventually get him in trouble with the law but that's another story!
"When you deprogram people, you force them to think.... but I keep them off balance and this forces them to begin questioning, to open their minds. When the mind gets to a certain point, they can see through all the lies that they've been programmed to believe. They realize that they've been duped and they come out of it. Their minds start working again." Ted Patrick
Questions require the brain to begin a thought process (think)... something sorely missing in a destructive mormon culture that subdues natural instincts/ability to effectively reason. The brain experiences a critical meltdown... no way to protect yourself from your abusers! Eventually, your brain is in lock down! mormonism is a full blown CULT by any standard! My wife/I try to use the endless question approach whenever we can! victim
If you really want to get inside someone's head and make them think I've found that the key is to ask them questions instead of tell them answers. By asking them questions you force them to seriously consider the question so they can come up with an answer that doesn't make them look foolish. The key is you're engaging their brain's thinking processes. But if you simply tell them facts and opinions about this and about that it just bounces of their brain and goes nowhere because it doesn't engage their thinking processes. If you don't engage those processes they'll keep them shut down as a defense strategy. I've found that what you say or how you say it is less important than is whether or not you're engaging their thinking processes. Again, ask them questions instead of tell them answers. In my experience, this approach works wonders.
Jeff, a somewhat controversial, early pioneer in CULT deprogamming named Ted Patrick also called "Black Lightning" would agree! He also realized the importance of taking victims out of a CULT Environment that would eventually get him in trouble with the law but that's another story!
"When you deprogram people, you force them to think.... but I keep them off balance and this forces them to begin questioning, to open their minds. When the mind gets to a certain point, they can see through all the lies that they've been programmed to believe. They realize that they've been duped and they come out of it. Their minds start working again." Ted Patrick
Questions require the brain to begin a thought process (think)... something sorely missing in a destructive mormon culture that subdues natural instincts/ability to effectively reason. The brain experiences a critical meltdown... no way to protect yourself from your abusers! Eventually, your brain is in lock down! mormonism is a full blown CULT by any standard! My wife/I try to use the endless question approach whenever we can! victim
Thanks for the feedback my friend. I'm sure you're enjoying the much warmer weather down your way!
So after being a closet apostate for the past two years my wife and I have decided to live our life and come out of the closet. Living in the closet has been fairly easy and natural since we live far from any family.
My parents are coming to visit and we have already sent them a warm up email that we are at a crossroads with the church and would like to talk to them. They know we have not been to church in about year and that I have historical issues but are not aware I think it's all BS.
My Mom's main defense will be that I need to think with my heart and not my head. She is aware of a few of the issues and I know has struggled with her faith and has serious issues with polygamy. My goal is not to have her leave the church (although that would be awesome), but to try and get her to see how unreliable it is to think with emotion rather than intellect.
I'm sure some of you have dealt with this argument and way of thinking before, what is your best response to a true believer that is using this line of thinking to maintain belief?
I would say something like, "Well, I understand what you mean, but I prefer to reason things out analytically as opposed to emotionally. Emotions are important, but so are facts, and there are some facts that my emotions can't excuse or rationalize under the rug anymore. That's my opinion -- I'm not trying to get you to think the exact same way I do, and I'm not saying that your way is wrong. But my way is right for me, and that's what I'm sticking with right now. Now who wants more funeral potatoes? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?"
I would indicate that we have faith in things that we can't see. That's what our heart is for. Once we can see them, we no longer use our heart. We use our head to evaluate things that we can observe.
The Todd, I'm just curious: what does your heart feel? I know that for me the disaffection with Mormonism started with the heart: it didn't feel right, didn't fulfill me, basically left me feeling hollow and worthless. I was at a youth conference with Harold B. Lee. I began looking around at the other conference attendees, seeing the adoration in their gaze and the way they seemed to feel electified. Me, I just thought Lee was an old guy who was boring and not very impressive. That is, my heart turned away first.
I do think our rational minds and our emotion minds contribute different useful information to many of life's big decisions. In my case, the thinking brain seems to be a servant of the emotional mind: once my intuition shifts on something, my frontal lobes go scampering off in search of confirming evidence. Rigorous logic is powerful for discerning truth, but intuitive jumps are quick and useful and seem to catch patterns that are hard to notice via reason and empiricism alone.
So it's a real question: in your heart, does Mormonism still ring true? Because if not, then you have a simple option of truthfully saying, "Mom, my heart says I love you guys and I am grateful for much of the way I was raised, but that the church itself is a hoax. It just doesn't feel right to me and it hasn't for a long time. In fact, do you know that burning in the bosom that people mention in Fast and Testimony meeting? Well, I feel that inside me right now, that joyous conviction of declaring out loud what I believe. I know you believe in the church, Mom, and that's fine. I hope that you can also see that my heart points a very different direction."
The Todd, I'm just curious: what does your heart feel? I know that for me the disaffection with Mormonism started with the heart: it didn't feel right, didn't fulfill me, basically left me feeling hollow and worthless. I was at a youth conference with Harold B. Lee. I began looking around at the other conference attendees, seeing the adoration in their gaze and the way they seemed to feel electified. Me, I just thought Lee was an old guy who was boring and not very impressive. That is, my heart turned away first.
I do think our rational minds and our emotion minds contribute different useful information to many of life's big decisions. In my case, the thinking brain seems to be a servant of the emotional mind: once my intuition shifts on something, my frontal lobes go scampering off in search of confirming evidence. Rigorous logic is powerful for discerning truth, but intuitive jumps are quick and useful and seem to catch patterns that are hard to notice via reason and empiricism alone.
So it's a real question: in your heart, does Mormonism still ring true? Because if not, then you have a simple option of truthfully saying, "Mom, my heart says I love you guys and I am grateful for much of the way I was raised, but that the church itself is a hoax. It just doesn't feel right to me and it hasn't for a long time. In fact, do you know that burning in the bosom that people mention in Fast and Testimony meeting? Well, I feel that inside me right now, that joyous conviction of declaring out loud what I believe. I know you believe in the church, Mom, and that's fine. I hope that you can also see that my heart points a very different direction."
(well, except maybe the use of the word "hoax". How about "not all it claims to be?")
I agree with others who have said we all think with both our hearts AND our heads. Getting your mom to rely only on her head for matters of faith would be like asking someone to choose their mate without considering emotion, as if it were a cold business decision. Just ain't gonna happen. And probably shouldn't.
But like Celestial W suggests, you can share your own feelings and emotions and say something does not feel right here. If you have indeed had problems with polygamy, for example, this might be the time to bring that up.
If you really want to get inside someone's head and make them think I've found that the key is to ask them questions instead of tell them answers. By asking them questions you force them to seriously consider the question so they can come up with an answer that doesn't make them look foolish. The key is you're engaging their brain's thinking processes. But if you simply tell them facts and opinions about this and about that it just bounces of their brain and goes nowhere because it doesn't engage their thinking processes. If you don't engage those processes they'll keep them shut down as a defense strategy. I've found that what you say or how you say it is less important than is whether or not you're engaging their thinking processes. Again, ask them questions instead of tell them answers. In my experience, this approach works wonders.
Jeff, a somewhat controversial, early pioneer in CULT deprogamming named Ted Patrick also called "Black Lightning" would agree! He also realized the importance of taking victims out of a CULT Environment that would eventually get him in trouble with the law but that's another story!
"When you deprogram people, you force them to think.... but I keep them off balance and this forces them to begin questioning, to open their minds. When the mind gets to a certain point, they can see through all the lies that they've been programmed to believe. They realize that they've been duped and they come out of it. Their minds start working again." Ted Patrick
Questions require the brain to begin a thought process (think)... something sorely missing in a destructive mormon culture that subdues natural instincts/ability to effectively reason. The brain experiences a critical meltdown... no way to protect yourself from your abusers! Eventually, your brain is in lock down! mormonism is a full blown CULT by any standard! My wife/I try to use the endless question approach whenever we can! victim
Thanks for the feedback my friend. I'm sure you're enjoying the much warmer weather down your way!
Yes, I'm wearing my flip-flops, shorts, tee-shirt, sun glasses/visor when riding with the top down! You know, if it wasn't for the mormon CULT, my retirement would be serene/absolutely awesome but the battle for the hearts/minds of my children continues no different than Todd's battle for the mind of his mother!
Yesterday, I had some great fish/chips at the beach! It won't be long before I'm in to those full bellied clams! It's so nice to have a distraction from the evils of a treacherous, corporate religion founded in the dark heart of a 19th century low-life named jo smith jr..!
I haven't forgotten my stunning, high mountain, pristine world! Say hi to everyone... I miss them all! Todd, please excuse my side bar! victim
How about "not all it claims to be?")
