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I did a search for this and didn't see it posted before, but Here's a video I just came across today on the internet, slamming Post Mormon and calling it a "Horrible Site", made by a self described, "Born Again Mormon" who says, 

"I just wanna thank Fiona for a website called PostMormon and it's getting all kinds of hits, and discussion. Newspapers are covering it. And the media is covering it, Post Mormon. And I just want to tell ya, this is my opinion, I think the website is a horrible place. It's typically filled with people who have left Mormonism and have become complete Atheists or Humanists or Agnostics. If you go in there on Post Mormon and share Jesus, they'll cut you into little ribbons. That is the very thing we don't want to see happen, someone leave Mormonism, because they see the TRUTH of it, and then fall into the world. And that's what Post Mormon is all about. People might get angry at me saying that, but that's exactly the case. I hope the thing crashes and burns, but it seems to be getting legs."

I guess Jesus wasn't listening when he and his followers he's bilking, prayed 4 years ago that this site would crash and burn.

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But he is right.

 

This is a horrible site to visit if you want to come to Jesus.

 

It is also a horrible site if you want to come to Santa Clause, Easter Bunny and Xenu.

 

But this is a great site to come to if you want support with Mormonism 

 

 

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What Is Wanted:

But he is right.

 

This is a horrible site to visit if you want to come to Jesus.

 

It is also a horrible site if you want to come to Santa Clause, Easter Bunny and Xenu.

 

But this is a great site to come to if you want support with [leaving] [getting past] Mormonism 

 

 

 

 

 
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Thanks Wes smile
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The information in his show helped me on my way out, but he is a rabid born again.  He swung a little too wide on his way out of mormonism. 
 
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What Is Wanted:

But he is right.

 

This is a horrible site to visit if you want to come to Jesus.

 

It is also a horrible site if you want to come to Santa Clause, Easter Bunny and Xenu.

 

But this is a great site to come to if you want support with Mormonism 

 

 

Exactly, like Sagan said,

 

"Religion is merely a community of people who gather together on a regular basis to reassure each other that it is ok to continue subscribing to absurdities. But for me it is far better to see the world the way it really exists, rather than persist in delusion no matter how comforting or reassuring that may seem."

 

If you come here looking for a community of people to reassure you that it's ok to continue subscribing to some absurdity you inherited and never bothered to examine with the same level of critical thought you applied to Mormonism, you're going to be asked some critical questions, which is the whole point of a forum, to subject your ideas to open discourse. 

 

But if you came here seeking discourse with a community of Post Mormons, who are genearally  honest people, who don't have any hidden agenda to  profit off of you (like this Born Again Mormon) and who are willing to share whatever wisdom they have gained from their journey through life, to help you really reconcile your world view with reality, or "bring you to the world", or down to Earth, then you came to the right place.

 

And what's wrong with being brought down to Earth, humanism and agnosticism?

 

Is there anything that is more down to Earth, realistic and reasonable?

 

Is there another world view that is more tenable than humanism and agnosticism?

 

If there is I'm not aware of it.

 

It may not offer happiness, in and of itself, but it does offer meaning and well being, which to me carry a much higher value in our quest for authenticity, well being, integrity and sanity than delusion, because it helps us to be able to better adapt to changing conditions.

 

Delusional thinking doesn't stand much of a chance of withstanding open inquiry in an open forum like this, which is why "Born Again Mormons" have the impression this is a horrible place where they get cut to ribbons.

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Stan:

I did a search for this and didn't see it posted before, but Here's a video I just came across today on the internet, slamming Post Mormon and calling it a "Horrible Site", made by a self described, "Born Again Mormon" who says, 

"I just wanna thank Fiona for a website called PostMormon and it's getting all kinds of hits, and discussion. Newspapers are covering it. And the media is covering it, Post Mormon. And I just want to tell ya, this is my opinion, I think the website is a horrible place. It's typically filled with people who have left Mormonism and have become complete Atheists or Humanists or Agnostics. If you go in there on Post Mormon and share Jesus, they'll cut you into little ribbons. That is the very thing we don't want to see happen, someone leave Mormonism, because they see the TRUTH of it, and then fall into the world. And that's what Post Mormon is all about. People might get angry at me saying that, but that's exactly the case. I hope the thing crashes and burns, but it seems to be getting legs."

I guess Jesus wasn't listening when he and his followers he's bilking, prayed 4 years ago that this site would crash and burn.

 

He forgot about victim/other believers who frequent postmormon.org!  I have defended a Supreme Ruler of the Universe/God from the beginning!  Nothing has changed!  I'm sure Jeff Ricks/others will remember discussions with me regarding this very issue! 

 

By the way, everyone has a right to an opinion... and that's all it is - including this intolerant believer!  I hope he can see past his prejudice/ allow everyone else the same basic right, even those who disagree with him... including, Atheists, Humanists/Agnostics!  It's called freedom of speech/expression... you know - the American way!  victim

 
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He sounds like the Westboro bunch....who because they rant and rave...actually bring more folks to the opposite of what they are touting.

 

Which means, more will visit this site because of that person's attempt to vilify.

 

Free advertising and all.

 

"Gossip's worth it's weight in gold...." (Phantom of the Opera, the musical.) 

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Ahhh.... Shawn from the local Utah cable show, "Heart of the Matter", is a piece of work. However, I have to give credit where credit is due. Channel surfing back in 2009, I came accross him interviewing Sandra Tanner of the Utah Lighthouse Mnistry. The things I heard on that episode began my investigation of Joseph Smith and LDS church history. So thanks to a couple of Born Again Christians, I soon went from inactivity to apostasy. grin
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ahhh Shawn.  Don't you remember his interview with "Nick the white-faced Mormon"?  Shawn is definitely not pro Mormon, just pro faith and especially pro Jesus.  They took down the original interview, but here is a follow up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c_r4XQilyc

I mentioned in another post that I personally seem to cycle, over time between the extremes of atheist to agnostic to still holding to a need for some faith and spirituality.

What is the take of the regular/long time posters here, as far as this being a place where input from a faith based perspective would have any place.  For example I'm remembering some hard words towards John Dehlin here.  I can see where the name/purpose of this board might not be served by posters (like me) that are really not totally "post" or desiring full post status.

It sounds like Shawn's take on this site is that it's also post faith, post jesus,  and post god.  That is why he has labeled it bad.

For the likes of me (full TBM wife/children), at best I might achieve a "cultural" status, but likely never post.  I suppose that might be why I never settled here before … I'm out of place and don't really fit the purpose of the site.

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Stan:

I did a search for this and didn't see it posted before, but Here's a video I just came across today on the internet, slamming Post Mormon and calling it a "Horrible Site", made by a self described, "Born Again Mormon" who says, 

"I just wanna thank Fiona for a website called PostMormon and it's getting all kinds of hits, and discussion. Newspapers are covering it. And the media is covering it, Post Mormon. And I just want to tell ya, this is my opinion, I think the website is a horrible place. It's typically filled with people who have left Mormonism and have become complete Atheists or Humanists or Agnostics. If you go in there on Post Mormon and share Jesus, they'll cut you into little ribbons. That is the very thing we don't want to see happen, someone leave Mormonism, because they see the TRUTH of it, and then fall into the world. And that's what Post Mormon is all about. People might get angry at me saying that, but that's exactly the case. I hope the thing crashes and burns, but it seems to be getting legs."

I guess Jesus wasn't listening when he and his followers he's bilking, prayed 4 years ago that this site would crash and burn.

 

 I would daresay that if someone went to a pro-faith/Jesus forum and began to testify that religion is wrong and evil, they would not be warmly welcomed and their points acknowledged as valid.

 

Some things 'grow legs' because they are based on an idea/ideology that has merit and evidence in it's favor.  

 

Follow the facts to where they lead you, and there you are. 

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He's got a valid point insofar as he's stating that this place is biased towards non-theism. There are certainly a good number of believers here, but the vocal majority appears to lean away from religious belief. 

 

However, he seems to be implying, or operating under the assumption that this place leads people to atheism. I don't think it does that. I think non-religious exmos find themselves here pretty organically. Religious exmos may well find themselves part of other communities (say, a church).

 
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victim:
Stan:

I did a search for this and didn't see it posted before, but Here's a video I just came across today on the internet, slamming Post Mormon and calling it a "Horrible Site", made by a self described, "Born Again Mormon" who says, 

"I just wanna thank Fiona for a website called PostMormon and it's getting all kinds of hits, and discussion. Newspapers are covering it. And the media is covering it, Post Mormon. And I just want to tell ya, this is my opinion, I think the website is a horrible place. It's typically filled with people who have left Mormonism and have become complete Atheists or Humanists or Agnostics. If you go in there on Post Mormon and share Jesus, they'll cut you into little ribbons. That is the very thing we don't want to see happen, someone leave Mormonism, because they see the TRUTH of it, and then fall into the world. And that's what Post Mormon is all about. People might get angry at me saying that, but that's exactly the case. I hope the thing crashes and burns, but it seems to be getting legs."

I guess Jesus wasn't listening when he and his followers he's bilking, prayed 4 years ago that this site would crash and burn.

He forgot about victim/other believers who frequent postmormon.org!  I have defended a Supreme Ruler of the Universe/God from the beginning!  Nothing has changed!  I'm sure Jeff Ricks/others will remember discussions with me regarding this very issue! 

He did say it is "typically filled with people who have left Mormonism and have become complete Atheists or Humanists or Agnostics." While there are quite a few Christian defenders here, like you, Athena, Wes and others, there are also quite a few other people who don't fit neatly into any pigeon hole. In fact, even people like Wes, who I know personally, isn't really dogmatic. He knows that his beliefs are just beliefs and not KNOWledge. I think Athena is the same. She's not insistant that her beliefs are absolute. And I don't think you do either. I don't know any regular contributors to this site who represent their views dogmatically, as if they are absolute truth. Bottom line, we're all a lot alike in that none of us really knows a whole lot more than anybody else. Many of us, like me choose to NOT identify ourselves with limiting labels, like Atheist, Humanist, Agnostic, Christian, Theist or any other label that people use to attach themselves to a particular group, smaller than Human Being, doing my best to fulfill the genius encoded into every one of the 75 trillion cells in my body. About a million cells die every second, replaced by slightly less than a million more that divide. To some extent I get to determine which ones die and which ones live. I get to decide which neural pathways I want to nurture and which ones I want to allow to die and not be replaced, not some external force.  

I'm a Homo Sapien Sapien, doing my best to become sapient, which is all any of us can do. 

By the way, everyone has a right to an opinion... and that's all it is - including this intolerant believer! 

Yep, exactly. That's what makes a forum a forum. There's a definite beneficial dynamic that exists in a public forum that you just can't benefit from fully unless you engage in the discourse.   If you just come here looking for ways to find fault, it's not difficult, but it's also not going to benfit you or gain you any wisdom. But if you make an articulate argument and you're willing to back up your arguments with real evidence, instead of logical falacies and it withstands the scrutiny of your peers, then you're able to resolve the conflicts between your world view and reality, which makes your world view more tennable. 

I hope he can see past his prejudice/ allow everyone else the same basic right, even those who disagree with him... including, Atheists, Humanists/Agnostics!  It's called freedom of speech/expression... you know - the American way!  victim

 

Exactly. That's what makes PoMo such a great place. As long as you focus on the civil discourse and don't attack other people personally, nobody's going to have a real problem with whatever you say here. Whereas if you belonged to a Christian denomination or any other sect, you could be subjected to censorship for saying what you really think, especially if it threatens the myths that identify that particular sect and give it its' unique identity, which is where the delusional group thinking enters in. 
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What I like about this forum is how moderators moderate.

I had one little issue, but it was worked out fine & I understand that there has to be some rules to keep the peace.  They don't let their egos get involved, unlike other forums (ie NOM).

 

If someone was looking to maintain their faith but still feel free to question, they should look at one of the many Christian/Religious forums or Staylds forum.

 
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Perspective:

If someone was looking to maintain their faith but still feel free to question, they should look at one of the many Christian/Religious forums or Staylds forum.

 

Maybe I'm the only one to who it's more like trying to remove a booger without a tissue.  No matter how wildly one swings around their arm, the booger refuses to fling!  Try using the other hand and it only transfers, or worse yet splits, dividing and multiplying the problem. 

 

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I guess what I'm observing, and asking … post mormon, if totally focused on the post aspect has picked a narrow group of a broader group that all suffer.

It is interesting how the NOM groups split from the ex-mo/post-mo world and all along how MDB wanted to fill a true discussion roll (verses say a support roll), and yet Dehlin has quite effectively also provided a forum for a wide spectrum of discussion with Mormon Stories, as well as support/recovery with how that continues to expand (i.e. Mormon Transitions).

For many (ok, maybe it's only some), there just does not seem to be any "sweet spot". It's just interesting and maybe a bit of a shame that the divide between those who have ever started down a faith crisis with the only true church is so wide.

Long term maybe John is going to have the approach that the Shawn's of the world are going to be more acceptant of.

 

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The whole thing with McCraney is that I think he will not be happy until the LDS church is lying in a pile of rubble. We all know this will never happen, but he does get a little fanatical sometimes.  And as far as this site being a bad site, he is dead wrong.  This site is awesome. 

When I first starting having my issues with the church 4 years ago, I began looking for groups online that were dealing with the same things and I found it here.  Shawn points out that typically Athiests and agnostics fill this forum, which is true because most people that leave Mormonism do become athiest or agnostic beacuse of the religious burnout they experienced while a part of Mormonism.  I also participate in a forum that is made of entirely of Christians, but I find this group more inviting because of the diversity of the membership.  I know there are Christians that are on here, I am one of them and I am not afraid to say that.  But if I wanted just a Christian perspective then I would just stay on the Christian sites.  Right in the header it says "Support for People as they Leave or Consider Leaving the Mormon or LDS Church"  and that is exactly what you will find on this site, support.  I joined this site because I get a HUMAN perspective on all these issues.  Everyone deals with this differently and I have learned alot of useful things here.  I hope that Jeff and the gang keep this going for a long time because this site is exactly what a post-mo needs, support from a wide spectrum of people and belief systems.

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This site is "freedom from forced or enforced religion of mormonism" and freedom of choice. Delightful.
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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mossface:

He's got a valid point insofar as he's stating that this place is biased towards non-theism. There are certainly a good number of believers here, but the vocal majority appears to lean away from religious belief. 

 

However, he seems to be implying, or operating under the assumption that this place leads people to atheism. I don't think it does that. I think non-religious exmos find themselves here pretty organically. Religious exmos may well find themselves part of other communities (say, a church).

One of the reasons I think that this forum seems "to have found legs" is because it appeals to the fastest growing religious tradition in America, No Religion, which isn't only Atheism, but also includes Humanists, agnostic and those who consider themselves "Spiritual, but not religious, or Atheist" which describes 75% of my children's generation, which is cause for hope in my view, not dispair. 

Very few are going to trade one set of dogmatic beliefs for another set of dogmatic beliefs, especially with the internet available to them to do thorough research that just wasn't available to us in the pre-internet days. 

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OrdinanceWorker: For the likes of me (full TBM wife/children), at best I might achieve a "cultural" status, but likely never post.  I suppose that might be why I never settled here before … I'm out of place and don't really fit the purpose of the site.

I think everybody follows their own course and finds their own community they're attracted to that works best for them and we change from time to time. It's our perogative.

The internet is a great big place and accomodates most people. I find this forum a happy medium between RfM and NOM. RfM has always seemed waaaay too harsh for me and NOM has always seemed waaaaay too restrictive in what you're able to say. This place has just the right amount of moderation IMHO. If I attack others personally, rather than focussing on the dialogue, I get a PM about it, which I don't mind, since that's what this place if for, civil discourse and support for people in various stages of their emancipation from the tyranny of "The Faith of Our Fathers".

It's true that most of us didn't stop at emancipating ourselves from the tyranny of "The Faith of Our Fathers" and applied the same level of scrutiny to all other faiths as well, which has lead most of us here to a rejection of any kind of a personal 'God' or Religion, but most of us realize that our spiritual needs didn't disappear once we rejected the traditional, notion of a personal God along with the Religions that propogate those notions.

But that doesn't make us typically complete Atheists, Humanists or Agnostics.

My experience has been that most of us find alternative sources to fulfill our spiritual or transcendent needs, sources that don't depend upon myths or personal Gods.

I've got no problem with using the word god or with anybody else using the word, God. I just think there are many other, words that more accurately describe the mystery in the universe some choose to call, God, like Tao, Logos, Karma, Genius, or simply, nature. But it really doesn't matter what name we use to describe the mysterious forces permeating and animating the universe, they're still mysterious to all of us and will probably always remain so. What helps is to allow ourselves to stand in rapt awe of those forces, like Einstein says on PoMo's homepage, 

 

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." 

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Stan:

I've got no problem with using the word god or with anybody else using the word, God. I just think there are many other, words that more accurately describe the mystery in the universe some choose to call, God, like Tao, Logos, Karma, Genius, or simply, nature. But it really doesn't matter name we use to describe the mysterious forces permeating and animating the universe, they're still mysterious and will probably always remain so. 

This makes good sense to me.  Thanks for responding Stan.

 

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People like that are why I made a "no believers" dating rule.

 

Seems to me like the exact opposite of his assertion is true: this is obviously a great site because it fills a need for so many. That's why it keeps growing "legs." He just cannot fathom that not everyone needs god. Besides, he obviously has reading comprehension issues because the mission statement clearly states that there is room here for all opinions, but the line is crossed when you start telling other people what is "right" to believe. Because we don't tell people what to believe and we don't tolerate people telling others what to believe, that makes this a "bad" site in his little mind.

 

Believers often have only one way of thinking about these things; to believe is right and anything is simply wrong. Well, nobody wants to hear about how wrong they are, so sure, that gets our backs up around here. I will defend to the death my right to believe in exactly nothing, thankyouverymuch. But I'm not going to try to convince anyone else that's what they need. What you believe is none of my business.

 

This reminds me of the first time I wrote a controversial article and got hate mail in the letters to the editor. I was all boo-hooing about it when my journalism teacher pointed out that I'd been effective as a writer because I'd incited a passionate reaction. That's how I learned that disagreement ≠ personal attack. 

 

Real success, whether in journalism or on this site, to me means we've opened the door to debate, discussion, and discourse. And I think Postmo has been wildly successful at that.

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Dogzilla Joy:

 

Real success, whether in journalism or on this site, to me means we've opened the door to debate, discussion, and discourse. And I think Postmo has been wildly successful at that.

 

 Exactly. McCreany wouldn't be afraid of this site if we weren't doing something right.

 
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When it comes to religious belief, I've found that the instant you attack someone's belief, in their mind you are attacking them.  I have a lot of Mormons that I really care about.  Most of my family, all of my children but one, my aunts and uncles are all TBMs.  Most of them are very good people.  Yet if I say anything negative about Mormonism, then I've mounted (in their eyes) an attack on THEM.  Nothing could be further from the truth (from my perspective).

 

Trying to get people to see that their beliefs aren't them seems to be an exercise in futility. All I would really like to do is get them to quit glazing over whenever I introduce evidence and have the courage to honestly evaluate new information, rather than retreat to what they believe is the high moral ground of "I know it is true!" 

 

Getting people to give themselves the permission to question their own beliefs is amazing difficult, yet I've found that it is the only way to genuinel personal growth.

 

Max 

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BTW, people tell me that Shawn McCreany is a really nice guy, and I don't doubt it. I just don't understand the attraction of such hardcore Born-Again Christianity. What point is there is trading one dogmatic religion for another?
 
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Runtu:
BTW, people tell me that Shawn McCreany is a really nice guy, and I don't doubt it. I just don't understand the attraction of such hardcore Born-Again Christianity. What point is there is trading one dogmatic religion for another?

 

 The thing with Christianity is you can choose how, when and how much you are going to worship.

 

Shawn does not even think going to church is even needed to be a good Christian. You can stay ate home and drink the kool aid without having a Church leader oppressing you.

 

 

Some people do better with religous structure. I know many people that need a strict religion to keep them in line or they would  not keep it together.

 

Mormonism is not the best choice of religion for many people.  So they search and find a comfortable place to be part of a community.

 

It is not for me at all. But I know many people who are happy to have an invisible friend watching over them. 

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NoLongerASheeple:

When it comes to religious belief, I've found that the instant you attack someone's belief, in their mind you are attacking them.  I have a lot of Mormons that I really care about.  Most of my family, all of my children but one, my aunts and uncles are all TBMs.  Most of them are very good people.  Yet if I say anything negative about Mormonism, then I've mounted (in their eyes) an attack on THEM.  Nothing could be further from the truth (from my perspective).

Which is why our Mothers taught us to avoid discussing politics and religion in mixed company, since you never know who you're going to offend

 

It's psych 101, ego defense mechanism.

When people attach their sense of self, personal narrative, identity (Ego) to a particular religion or political affiliation (metanarrative), any criticism of the particular religion or political party is likely to offend somebody who identies themselves strongly with that religious identity or political party.

 

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In postmodern philosophy, a metanarrative is an untold story that unifies and totalizes the world, and justifies a culture's power structures. Examples of these stories are nationalismsreligion, and science, to name a few. Metanarratives are not usually told outright, but are reinforced by other more specific narratives told within the culture. 

 

 Sound familiar? Joseph's Myth is a perfect example of a metanarrative or story that unifies and totalizes the world and justifies a CULTure's power structures (authority).  Only the metanarrative is told explicitly, in the temple and is reinforced by specific narratives within the culture on a continual basis. In fact LDS Inc maintains the world's largest army of 50,000 missionaries to go out and spread that narrative around the world. 

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Trying to get people to see that their beliefs aren't them seems to be an exercise in futility. All I would really like to do is get them to quit glazing over whenever I introduce evidence and have the courage to honestly evaluate new information, rather than retreat to what they believe is the high moral ground of "I know it is true!" 

 

Getting people to give themselves the permission to question their own beliefs is amazing difficult, yet I've found that it is the only way to genuinel personal growth.

 

Max  

 

Trying to get people to see that their beliefs aren't them is futile because they see it for what it is, an effort to control them and impose your beliefs upon them, which they percieve as a threat to themselves, or their Ego, which automatically triggers powerful ego defense mechanisms, and survival instincts deeply embeded in our brains, like the fight or flight instinct and the herding instinct. People's brains shut off when they go into group think mentality, cult behavior, tribalism. It becomes a battle between good (us) vs. evil (them) where everybody loses. 

 

That's why the NOM rules of disengagement start with 

 

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1. Put family relationships first.

Family and other loved ones are more important than most other considerations. People are more important than things, and maintaining family relationships is more important than many other things including emotional comfort with the institutional church. 

 

Which is what makes them so effective.  

 

I found that there was no way I was getting through to my TBM spouse at the time using reason or logic. No evidence I supplied was getting through to her for 3 years. It wasn't until I reassured her that our relationship came first and that our family came first, before any other consideration and I empathized with her that I understood what her REAL concerns were. She wanted to be together with her late Father in the next life, she couldn't stand the concept of polygamy and she wanted to be able to have a good response to people who questioned her about why she left the church, if she ever did leave. None of my reasons were satisfactory to her, enough to turn her back on her whole family, friends and tribe she depended upon for emotional support and her identity and world view. That's what made me research the isseus that really concerned her, like Polygamy, which turned out to be a whole lot more damning to Joseph's Myth than any of the concerns that destroyed my faith in Joseph's Myth. 

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What Is Wanted:

 The thing with Christianity is you can choose how, when and how much you are going to worship.

 

Shawn does not even think going to church is even needed to be a good Christian. You can stay at home and drink the kool aid without having a Church leader oppressing you.

I've got no problem living Christ's two commandments to love our fellow men and to love God, since I figure the word "God" is one and the same as 'Logos' or the natural reason permeating and animating the universe, or IOW, genius, tao, Karma, quantum particles, all of which I love. But no label really describes it. Like the Taoists say, "What is the Tao cannot be named. What can be named is not the Tao."

 

That's something you'd never hear come out of a Christian's mouth, "What is God cannot be named. What can be named is not God." They name it Jesus Christ and they name themselves Christians, which automatically puts them at odds with all the non-Christians or anybody they percieve as non-Christian, like Mormons. Hence the refusal of many Evangelical Christians to vote for a Mormon for President. 

 

Like Gandhi said, I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” 

 

Christ was great, who can argue with Love your neighbor as yourself? It's a universal value that preceeded Christ by about 10,000 years.

 

But those who followed Christ and identified themselves as Christians and created Christianity in order to control and exploit others really violated Christ's commandment to 'Love your neighbor' by pitting themselves against their neighbor, by creating a kind of tribalism that has only gotten worse as time has gone on. 

 

The original gospel of Christ was quite beautiful and meaningful, in the original Greek version. It lost a lot of that beauty and meaning in the various translations since the original. We all know the whole narrative of the apostacy, which wasn't too far from reality. Christianity was created as a State religion in order to get Romans to pay taxes as faithfully as Christians paid tithing to the church. It worked so well it has endured ever since and people keep buying into being mentally enslaved by the power structure that was created by the   Roman Emperor Constantine  17 Centuries ago at the First Council of Nicaea  in order to consolidate his vast empire and unify his subjects with one unifying myth, which incorporated elements of the other competing pagan religions at the time, like Mithraism. The main reason he settled on Christianity, rather than the other more ancient Pagan options was because Christianity already had a pyramidal heirarchy in place, which he used as the State Religion, to place himself at the top of the pyramid and it's been working to the same ends ever since. 

Some people do better with religous structure. I know many people that need a strict religion to keep them in line or they would  not keep it together.

 

Mormonism is not the best choice of religion for many people.  So they search and find a comfortable place to be part of a community.

 I just read an interesting article about this recently, here


"Edward O. Wilson, the eminent Harvard biologist, has a new book, “The Social Conquest of Earth,” that criticizes religion as “stultifying and divisive” — but also argues that religion offered a competitive advantage to early societies. Faith bolstered social order among followers and helped bind a tribe together, he writes, and that is why religion is so widespread today. And he tips his hat to the social role of faith:

“Organized religions preside over the rites of passage, from birth to maturity, from marriage to death,” Wilson writes, adding: “Beliefs in immortality and ultimate divine justice give priceless comfort, and they steel resolution and bravery in difficult times. For millennia, organized religions have been the source of much of the best in the creative arts.” 

It is not for me at all. But I know many people who are happy to have an invisible friend watching over them. 

We're a part of the fastest growing religious identification in America since 9-11, No Religion, which gives me hope for the future of this country. What really gives me a lot of hope is that 75% of my children's generation identify themselves as "spiritual, but not religious' which is great. They're neither religious or atheist.

Both extreme identities are just irrelevant to them, but they still recognize that spirituality or self-transcendence, is our highest need

 

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OrdinanceWorker:

ahhh Shawn.  Don't you remember his interview with "Nick the white-faced Mormon"?  Shawn is definitely not pro Mormon, just pro faith and especially pro Jesus.  They took down the original interview, but here is a follow up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c_r4XQilyc

I mentioned in another post that I personally seem to cycle, over time between the extremes of atheist to agnostic to still holding to a need for some faith and spirituality.

What is the take of the regular/long time posters here, as far as this being a place where input from a faith based perspective would have any place.  For example I'm remembering some hard words towards John Dehlin here.  I can see where the name/purpose of this board might not be served by posters (like me) that are really not totally "post" or desiring full post status.

It sounds like Shawn's take on this site is that it's also post faith, post jesus,  and post god.  That is why he has labeled it bad.

For the likes of me (full TBM wife/children), at best I might achieve a "cultural" status, but likely never post.  I suppose that might be why I never settled here before … I'm out of place and don't really fit the purpose of the site.

 OW.  Why do you think you don't fit? I read your posts and you seem quite "post" to me.  As I read the purpose of this site, it seems quite inclusive.

 

We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community. Some of us choose to continue their spiritual journey through traditional religious means and others of us identify ourselves as atheistic or agnostic. 

 I think some people are turned off by postmormon because this site provides space to discuss not only Mormonism but the validity of faith itself.  That can make some people uncomfortable.  Recently there has been a spate of threads questioning atheism and atheist thinkers like Dawkins, Harris, and others have been bashed pretty heavily.  As I see it, there is nothing wrong with those types of discussions.

 

Postmormon really doesn't have a religious agenda but it does have an agenda that allows others to contradict your (or my) point of view.  As a consequence of freedom of speech, everyone's point of view will get challenged here sooner or later.  I have learned for those times.  

 

 

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OrdinanceWorker:

I guess what I'm observing, and asking … post mormon, if totally focused on the post aspect has picked a narrow group of a broader group that all suffer.

It is interesting how the NOM groups split from the ex-mo/post-mo world and all along how MDB wanted to fill a true discussion roll (verses say a support roll), and yet Dehlin has quite effectively also provided a forum for a wide spectrum of discussion with Mormon Stories, as well as support/recovery with how that continues to expand (i.e. Mormon Transitions).

For many (ok, maybe it's only some), there just does not seem to be any "sweet spot". It's just interesting and maybe a bit of a shame that the divide between those who have ever started down a faith crisis with the only true church is so wide.

Long term maybe John is going to have the approach that the Shawn's of the world are going to be more acceptant of.

 

 

 Speaking as my own little self and not as any sort of representative of postmormon.org, I don't think any one forum can serve to fill the needs of everyone who has suffered/is suffering from contact with mormonism.  I think one of the strengths of the the community at large is the variety of former mormon/questioning mormon/new order mormon/etc. that exist.  Different people have different needs, and I think it would be a mistake to try and devise a one size fits all community for all these different people with different needs.

 

Postmormon.org is set up to focus on people in what I think of as the "transition stage" -- roughly from the time folks learn that mormonism is not what it seems until they get their feet back under them and find a way to live happily with their new worldview.   As many, many people have observed, losing your LDS faith can be a very lonely, isolating concept.  It can make you feel like you are literally going crazy.  And there are lots of LDS folks out there who are happy to tell you that you are going crazy -- that the way to get sane is to immerse yourself more deeply into mormonism.

 

What we do here is let these people know:  Hey, you aren't crazy.  You aren't alone.  There are lots and lots of folks who have walked exactly the path you've walked, felt the same feelings you've felt, and have come through just fine.

 

It is exceptionally difficult to build a community around something you aren't or something you used to be.  What I like to think helps hold this community together is the focus on the people who need that support.  We need the long timers who hang out here to share their experiences with the folks in transition.  That purpose is something around which we can form a community.

 

I do wrestle all the time with how to make this place more welcoming and accomodating for folks who need support.  Some of our differences appear intractable to me.  We muddle through and handle those as best we can -- trying to keep our focus on the folks that need support.  But I don't think we can be everything that everyone needs, and given the wide scope of online conmmunities available, I'm not convinced we should try.

 

ETA:  Jeff, please feel free to kick my ass if I've wandered too far from the mission statement.   

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Thanks Hiker Daddy,

 

I may have pre-judged a bit too much there based on when I first showed up and was no where near as "post" as I am today.

 

I’m also nowhere near as chauvinistic, homophobic, republican etc. as I was back then (and I was bad).

I think I'll stick around a bit, got another beer?

 

 

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OrdinanceWorker:

Thanks Hiker Daddy,

 

I may have pre-judged a bit too much there based on when I first showed up and was no where near as "post" as I am today.

 

I’m also nowhere near as chauvinistic, homophobic, republican etc. as I was back then (and I was bad).

I think I'll stick around a bit, got another beer?

 

 

 

 Do we have beer?  Pick yer poison.  (where is that beer smiley when you need it....)

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Brad (ZeeZrom):
OrdinanceWorker:

Thanks Hiker Daddy,

 

I may have pre-judged a bit too much there based on when I first showed up and was no where near as "post" as I am today.

 

I’m also nowhere near as chauvinistic, homophobic, republican etc. as I was back then (and I was bad).

I think I'll stick around a bit, got another beer?

 

 

 

 Do we have beer?  Pick yer poison.  (where is that beer smiley when you need it....)

 

 

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” 

Ben Franklin 

 

Saw that on a t-shirt at the EMP opening ceremony concert once.  

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Postmormon.org is like a Veterans Hall.

 

We all survivied the war and gather to talk about old battles, get help with post traumatic stress and get confirmation that it really happened and what we remember was real.

 

As the soldiers come in after the war they are given support to those who need it and to those who want to take about past battles have plenty of Post Mormon Vets to converse with.

 

Only Post Mormons actually have a clue what other Post Mormons have gone through.

 

 

Personally I had a pretty good life as a Mormon. I knew for a long time something was fishy and not on the level. Once I figured it out I was done, but I now have a blast researching Mormon history and doctrine more then ever. It is like a puzzle game and unwinding it is rather fun for me.

 

Here on Post Mormon we have the "Best of the Best" of those who were Mormons at one time. Hopefully we can be here for a long time to welcome our old comrades as they make their way out of the puzzle that is Mormonism and we all can be safely far enough away from TSCC when it really comes down and it takes some good people down with it.

 

Lots of people are going to need support and they will be so happy they find us waiting for them. 

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