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Something to Say When People Quote the Bible about Homosexuality
 
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This was in the comment section of a beautiful essay about love and family by Andrew Sullivan:
.
I have an email that I like to share with people when they start to quote the bible. It's always interesting how people with a political bent try to quote the bible for their own personal benefit to judge others.  
 
"In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative: 
 
Dear Dr. Laura: 
 
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate. 
 
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them. 
 
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 
 
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 
 
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 
 
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 
 
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? 
 
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination? 
 
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading 
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here? 
 
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? 
 
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 
 
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing 
garments made of two different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. 
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) 
 
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy 
considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. 
 
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. 
 
Your adoring fan. 
James M. Kauffman, 
Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, 
Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education 
University of Virginia 
 
(It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian Smile
 
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This is good. Another approach is to say "Homosexuality is no more of a sin than eating bacon, count the scriptural references".
 
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ff:
This is good. Another approach is to say "Homosexuality is no more of a sin than eating bacon, count the scriptural references".

 

 or shrimp

 
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I love this. I haven't ever seen so many different abominations laid out like that all in one place. It is funny how with so many things Christians say that Jesus did away with the old law and put in a higher law for the things they don't like following but since they don't like homosexuals they are okay with still following that part. Same goes for orthodox Jews like Dr Laura. They don't believe in Jesus' higher law but they still are happy to leave out the parts that are inconvenient to a modern society. Leviticus is just a bunch of rules that a small group of people made up that they thought were a good way for maintaining an orderly society. There is no reason we should feel obligated to follow those same rules today. I think we should try to come up with better ones.
 
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wesmanlv:
ff:
This is good. Another approach is to say "Homosexuality is no more of a sin than eating bacon, count the scriptural references".

 

 or shrimp

 

So the obvious question is, why have they chosen to hone in on the homosexuality at the neglect and exclusion of pigs and shrimps?

 

If they'd been born or raised Jewish, they's be as, or more obsessed with pig and shrimp, so their emphasis is nothing more than a cultural one. It makes as much sense to beat up on homosexuals as to do so on left-handers, who were also picked on and derided for periods in history.

 

Has religion anything more to offer society than cultural and historical biases that make life miserable for minorities? Surely if the message of Christ has anything of value, it must be love and respect minorities.

 

Daryl 

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Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt

and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl

 
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That letter is a brilliant piece of ironic and scarcastic writing.  

 

Just as an aside, tho, it's worth knowing that the "doctor" clothed herself in Orthodox theology for about 5 years and then slunk quietly away from it 9 years ago. 

 
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Remind them that according to the OT a rape victim has to marry their rapist. Ask them how come they don't support that.
 
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AZPostMo:
I love this. I haven't ever seen so many different abominations laid out like that all in one place. It is funny how with so many things Christians say that Jesus did away with the old law and put in a higher law for the things they don't like following but since they don't like homosexuals they are okay with still following that part. Same goes for orthodox Jews like Dr Laura. They don't believe in Jesus' higher law but they still are happy to leave out the parts that are inconvenient to a modern society. Leviticus is just a bunch of rules that a small group of people made up that they thought were a good way for maintaining an orderly society. There is no reason we should feel obligated to follow those same rules today. I think we should try to come up with better ones.

 

 I have two.

Have respect for everyone and everything, for we are all in this together.

Live in Joy, Love, Peace and Happiness.

 

Great letter BobbiesPath. I'm sure there are 300 other 'commandments' in the OT that would also qualify as being ignored by both Jew and Gentile these days. 

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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me

 
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A bitched (bastard) shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

                                                                            (Deuteronomy 23:2)

Since my grandfather was illegitimate, I wish I would have known a little earlier that my family was prohibited from going to church for another 200 years or so.

 

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“Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all.”
                      -Hypatia of Alexandria

 
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Damn, both my parents were illigitimate. I shouldn't have been allowed at church either.

 

And what about Deuteronomy 23:1?

 

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD." 

 

Does that apply to vasectomies? Maybe it applies to male - female gender re-assignment. 

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Take me to church
I’ll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
I’ll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife
Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life- Take Me To Church, Hozier

You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler

 
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The Bible doesn't say to deny homosexuals equal rights, it says to kill them, so why are you not out killing homosexuals instead of just denying them rights?

 

-

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. 

 

But before you do that, kill everyone that has cursed their Mom or Dad

 

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Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.

 

and kill everybody who has sex with their neighbor's wife, along with the neighbor's wife,

 

-

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 

 

While you're at it, kill all the Wizards

 

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Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

 

But thou shalt not kill, according to the 10 Commandments, so apparently your God either has multiple personalities or he is a hypocrite.

Either way, following a 4,000 year old moral code is delusional and barbaric. 

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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

 
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Stan:

But thou shalt not kill, according to the 10 Commandments, so apparently your God either has multiple personalities or he is a hypocrite.

Either way, following a 4,000 year old moral code is delusional and barbaric. 

 

Stan, you triggered my recollection of a video that talks about the God of the Bible being schizophrenic, so I'm going to hijack my own thread and share it. It's long, but fascinating!

 

(The last 15 or 20 minutes are the most interesting.)

 
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Bobbies Path

thanks for posting this !

I had been somewhat miss-trusting of the Gay marriage initiative. Old biases die hard I guess. When I read this it made me laugh then it made me think.

As far as I know their is nothing anti gay in the new testament.

and loving your neighbor as yourself sure would encompassing allowing disenfranchised members of society equal social and legal standing. In addition I can see no way that this would diminish marriage or damage traditionally married couples. I can't imagine that a society where all people can participate could be considered weaker.

 

 

On the other hand I wonder what a good Canadian would run me on the slave market.

 

 

 

 
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peace out:

 

<snip> 

 

On the other hand I wonder what a good Canadian would run me on the slave market. 

 

 

 How much are you willing to pay? I have six kids who can be bought for the right price! 

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Take me to church
I’ll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
I’ll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife
Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life- Take Me To Church, Hozier

You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler

 
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If talking to a Mormon you can note:

 

1) Nothing in ANY of the Mormon scirptures talk about gay issues in any way shape or form. 

 

2) Joseph Smith said nothing about gay people or gay issues

 

3) Joseph Smith apparently enjoyed sleeping with young men (it was fairly common to sleep with another male at that time apparently even if non sexually). It was not stated if he was sexual with them. If he was that would be interesting.

 


Beyond the Mormon specific stuff though, let's start with the children of Adam and Eve and their incest. Then let's merely look at Lott and his daughters having sex. 

 

Now tell me, just based on that alone, should we look to the Bible as the moral authority of the world when it comes to sexual things? 

 
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peace out:

Bobbies Path

thanks for posting this !

I had been somewhat miss-trusting of the Gay marriage initiative. Old biases die hard I guess. When I read this it made me laugh then it made me think.

As far as I know their is nothing anti gay in the new testament.

and loving your neighbor as yourself sure would encompassing allowing disenfranchised members of society equal social and legal standing. In addition I can see no way that this would diminish marriage or damage traditionally married couples. I can't imagine that a society where all people can participate could be considered weaker.

 

 

On the other hand I wonder what a good Canadian would run me on the slave market.

 

 

 

 

You should also read Andrew Sullivan's article that is linked in the post.  It will make you think and cry.

 
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I have also vascillated on gay marriage a long the way, but a few things have had me rethink that...

 

1) The Foster care system has soooo many kids that people are not adopting. They are taken in by people often interested in the gov't money to care for them. This taxes the system. Gay people are often willing to take kids that others do not want to take. There is a great story online somewhere about a gay couple taking 12 kids from the foster care system. Some of them would have been separated from their siblings. The gay couple took I think it was five of them that were related when they otherwise would have been separated. The foster care worker was giving them kids because she knew they would care for them and they fostered something like 40 other kids that moved on to other homes.  Very sweet loving couple.

 

2) I think gay people like many people need roots sometimes and family offers that and kids offer that. Parenting makes a person grow up and think about someone other than themselves. That can be a good thing for them and for society. It can give them a purpose in life beyond just their love relationship. 

 

3)  Not every gay person wants to get married anymore than every straight person does. The ones who want to get married usually have to have a reason to do so. I think there should be options for all couple gay and straight to legally define and contextualize their relationships such as domestic partnerships, civil unions, and marriage, depending on their needs legally and their definitions.

 

4) Religious freedom - Religious ceremonies are at the discretion of religions that offer them or do not offer them. If you want religious freedom, you need to give it to others. There are multiple religions that allow gay marriage and even more that would likely follow suit if it were legal. 

 

5) Equality - Treating people equally makes them feel equal. Feeling equal helps a person psychologically and that helps society. People feeling oppressed tend to struggle to feel motivated to live (hence suicides and depression and substance abuse), but a person who feels like they have a seat at the table and is valued is more likely to contribute and want to support society and that is good for all involved. Gay people already do a lot for society and being treated better would put the creative efforts to use in other ways. 

 

6) The children of gay parents care. Treating the parents of kids in less equal ways has them feel less valued as a person and more shame. The mental gymnastics in such cases for kids can be more confusing than the kids figuring out that some people have two mommies or two daddies. 

 

7) I know there are gay couples with international relationships and I think that the immigration there is often in the interest of this country as it makes for more healthy and diverse situations in some cases. Gay men in big cities are often in relationships with well educated men from other countries and Gay marriage is often allowed in those countries, so not allowing it has the talent and the contributions of that talent lost to other countries. 

 

8) Marriage is a conservative value. If you want people to be monogamous and value relationships and be more stable, give them a structure which will encourage that. You can argue that making it illegal will discourage them from being gay, but it just discourages them from being stable and healthy partners and then people blame them for being poor role models. There are lots of gay couples who want marriage and want stability and want the American dream like anyone else. 

 

Oh, and either way if people are going to argue it I think there should be nationwide Civil Unions and/or Domestic Partnership rights so people are able to have hospital rights, inheritance rights, etc... and just be handled. I find it ridiculous that people argue over marriage vs. domestic partnerships or civil unions and yet none of them are available nationwide. 

 
       
 


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