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My Letter to Elder Holland re Book of Mormon
 
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I have written to Elder Holland concerning his claims re the Book of Mormon and told him I would be posting a copy on at least 2 bulletin boards (this and RFM).

 

The letter is rather long and above the limit for a post on this board. Jeff Ricks has suggested, therefore, I post a link to the RFM posting for any who may be interested in reading.

 

The letter is on (biography board)  http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?3,498128

and the letter plus discussion posts on (discussion board)  http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,498123 .

 

I will also post his reply, when received, so that both sides may be fairly represented. 

 
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I read this on RfM and it's a great letter. Unfortunately there's just nothing Elder Holland can say, you're asking him to choose between honesty and upholding the position and church he represents.

 

Still I'm glad you wrote it and posted it online. His silence will say it all.

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Excellent, excellent, excellent letter. My feeling is that his response will be (if he responds at all) one of the following, or a combination of:

 

1) his testimony

2) an appeal to his authority

3) some statement to the effect that God's ways are not man's ways

4) an ad hominem attack on you and/or your "evidences" 

5) an absolute skirting of the issues or, in other words, he will respond to your letter without answering any of your questions. 

 

I see no other way. He has painted himself into a corner with his "sudden death" test of the BoM's veracity.

 

I wish you all the best in dealing with your family. I suspect many of them will not even read the letter. As soon as they get to something which makes them feel uncomfortable, they will "feel the spirit leaving the room" and discard the letter, and cling to the delusion that you have been deceived and that Satan has you in his grasps. It's really quite tragic.

 

I look forward to reading Elder Holland's reply. 

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Take me to church
I’ll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
I’ll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife
Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life- Take Me To Church, Hozier

You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler

 
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I am glad you wrote it.  We need to speak up.  TBMs, apostles or not, need to HEAR what the truth sounds like when it comes to mormon truth claims whether they change their mind or not.  Speaking up matters and it makes a difference.  I will tell you this.  If you are the dude who posted about your second annointing a few years ago, I just had lunch with a dude two weeks ago who mentioned that write up as being a big part of helping his thinking cap to get turned on.

 

I would love it he responeded but I could care less.  From you, he will read it and once again will for however many minutes, the reality of the fraud he perpetuates will rest upon him.  Then I suppose he will head down to the free lunch buffet at the church office building or whatever. 

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You wanna leave me baby be my guest
All I’m gonna do is cry
And then I’m gonna find me someone else
And tear the stars out of the sky
You don’t need me anymore
They say storms are right for summertime
Well, baby I’m long gone
Whatcha gonna do
When you open your eyes?
It’s a brand new day and baby
No blue skies

 

No Blue Skies
Lloyd Cole
http://vimeo.com/92588634

 
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I very much doubt he will read it.  And I don't think it will even be discussed.  The church is good at ignoring things.
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- Peter Lindberg Jensen.


There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

 
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Lloyd Dobler:

I am glad you wrote it.  We need to speak up.  TBMs, apostles or not, need to HEAR what the truth sounds like when it comes to mormon truth claims whether they change their mind or not.  Speaking up matters and it makes a difference.  I will tell you this.  If you are the dude who posted about your second annointing a few years ago, I just had lunch with a dude two weeks ago who mentioned that write up as being a big part of helping his thinking cap to get turned on.

 

I would love it he responeded but I could care less.  From you, he will read it and once again will for however many minutes, the reality of the fraud he perpetuates will rest upon him.  Then I suppose he will head down to the free lunch buffet at the church office building or whatever. 

 

 Yes I am that dude and thanks for letting me know someone was helped.

 
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anointed one:
Lloyd Dobler:

I am glad you wrote it.  We need to speak up.  TBMs, apostles or not, need to HEAR what the truth sounds like when it comes to mormon truth claims whether they change their mind or not.  Speaking up matters and it makes a difference.  I will tell you this.  If you are the dude who posted about your second annointing a few years ago, I just had lunch with a dude two weeks ago who mentioned that write up as being a big part of helping his thinking cap to get turned on.

 

I would love it he responeded but I could care less.  From you, he will read it and once again will for however many minutes, the reality of the fraud he perpetuates will rest upon him.  Then I suppose he will head down to the free lunch buffet at the church office building or whatever. 

 

 Yes I am that dude and thanks for letting me know someone was helped.

 

 Well, you are one hell of a good dude.   You know, when I was first researching this stuff, I mean, I was like, "maybe I am the crazy one"......I also remember reading your second annointing stuff at the time me and a buddy were going through the process of figuring it all out and I remember we talked a lot about it.  It meant something that someone like you, who had obviously lived a life of rich "testifying and spiritual experiences" had figured it out......it helpd us think, maybe we are not crazy after all.  

 

I was one who constantly thought that since I had already received a spiritual witness that the chuch was true (which of course really was not that powerful and involved a great deal of self decievement) that I could not question it now.........almost like I was not allowed to change my mind or challenge the validity of these testifying experiences.....but your story helped me and my buddy and this dude I talked to a couple weeks ago.  so that is three that I know of.  Imagine the actual number of people you have helped.

 

Of course, I remain amazed at how little credibility I have with my own family. 

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You wanna leave me baby be my guest
All I’m gonna do is cry
And then I’m gonna find me someone else
And tear the stars out of the sky
You don’t need me anymore
They say storms are right for summertime
Well, baby I’m long gone
Whatcha gonna do
When you open your eyes?
It’s a brand new day and baby
No blue skies

 

No Blue Skies
Lloyd Cole
http://vimeo.com/92588634

 
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Lloyd Dobler:
anointed one:      

 Yes I am that dude and thanks for letting me know someone was helped.

 

   Well, you are one hell of a good dude.     

 

Let me second what Brother Dobler hath said.

 

I think you posting the second anointing story was amazing. I read it and re-read it when I first heard about it. It was kind of like going through the temple for the first time again -- it was too crazy to believe, but at the same time I knew it was credible.

 

And it was even more bold that you posted this letter under your own name!

 

Thanks for doing this...

 

 

 
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I wonder why this (second anointing) is so hush-hush in the church. I remember discussing it in seminary back in the 70s and I also remember discussing it with my dad. I can see not telling people if you receive the ordinance (well, maybe not), but to not even discuss it in the correlated church is beyond comprehension.

 

I have heard another account of this, in which part 2 (when the wife blesses the husband) is done in the home, whenever the couple sees fit. The home is first dedicated by the husband, or a room within the home, and then the wife washes the feet of and blesses the husband.

 

Meh. It's all nonsense anyway.

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Take me to church
I’ll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
I’ll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife
Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life- Take Me To Church, Hozier

You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler

 
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A very well written letter, Annointed One.  Here is my prediction of what you will hear from Elder Holland.

 

::crickets::

 

Unfortunately, Elder Holland was not addressing you.  He was addressing the millons of members that are yet "faithful."  He was giving them warm fuzzies to keep them warm in the coming frostbite of exposure of the deceit of Mormonism...a dark hole to hide from the glaring sun. 

 

Do I think that your letter will cause him some guilty pangs?  If he reads it thoroughly, yes. In the end though, he will shove the guilt down and justify it by saying, "the end justifies the means."

 

As one who has been through the second annointing, you know full well that "lying for the Lord" is one of the preeminant doctrines of the church

 

Just my humble opinion,

Max 

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.
Blaise Pascal

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Marcus Aurelius

 
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Good job calling Holland to accountability for they way he chooses to bully around with his rhetoric. The letter also really highlights how screwed up this religion is with regard to family members being in different places of belief. The leaders can really drive a wedge through a family and Holland seems to do so with such little care to how damaging these types of messages can be to family relationships.

 

I sincerely wish you the best with your family. I hope that Holland's lack of response will help break down the infallability of his logic.

 

::: Somewhere in downtown Salt Lake City we need to comission an artist to create a big elephant :::

 
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This letter is amazing. I really hope Elder Holland actually reads it. It has to sting to know that no matter how much he yells it isn't going to do any good because people are going to keep realizing what a fraud it is. I am going to save a copy of this in my google docs for future reference. I think it would great to share with people who may be questioning. Could you post a link to your article on your second anointing? I would be very interested to read that as well.
 
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Nice letter. You even mentioned one of my biggest doubts from my mission "The King James translation of the Bible has certainly been used/copied verbatim (including errors in that translation) as well as common 19th century themes prevalent in upstate New York." I decided to read all the books in my Quad multiple times as a missionary and the verbatim quotes from Isiah in particular really bothered me. It didn't make sense to me that the same wording would be used in both translations. It also bothered me because the church very clearly teaches that the bible hasn't been 100% translated correctly and if that is the case why is such a sizable chunk of the BOM copied word for word from it. If it was an actual translation different wording would be used. The only time you see the exact wording in two different translations with decades apart is when the older work is used for a reference by the newer translator and if the BOM was translated by perfect divine means no reference would be necessary.
 
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AZPostMo:
This letter is amazing. I really hope Elder Holland actually reads it. It has to sting to know that no matter how much he yells it isn't going to do any good because people are going to keep realizing what a fraud it is. I am going to save a copy of this in my google docs for future reference. I think it would great to share with people who may be questioning. Could you post a link to your article on your second anointing? I would be very interested to read that as well.

 

 Thank you so much for the feedback. Here is the link to my Second Anointing post as you requested http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm .

 

Even a Google search for "personal experience of second anointing" brings this up as no. 1 and a search for "second anointing" should bring it up in the top 3, certainly the first page. 

 
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Fabulous letter! Thank you for posting it. It outlines most of my thoughts and conclusions on the Book of Mormon as well but adds some additional evidences I hadn't considered or yet learned such as the Greek Psalter. (I'll have to look into this one.) 

 

This is my first post here and as I'm studying evidences which refute Book of Mormon truth claims lately, I appreciate you making this available for other's to read.

 

Out of curiosity, are you the the same "anointed one" who posted in another forum regarding having received the second endowment? Someone linked me to that thread as it is a belief and practice that has always infuriated me. It was a fascinating read.

 

And just because I MUST use this icon... 

 

Warm regards,

Melanie 

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Apostates, party of seven

 
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anointed one:
AZPostMo:
This letter is amazing. I really hope Elder Holland actually reads it. It has to sting to know that no matter how much he yells it isn't going to do any good because people are going to keep realizing what a fraud it is. I am going to save a copy of this in my google docs for future reference. I think it would great to share with people who may be questioning. Could you post a link to your article on your second anointing? I would be very interested to read that as well.

 

 Thank you so much for the feedback. Here is the link to my Second Anointing post as you requested http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm .

 

Even a Google search for "personal experience of second anointing" brings this up as no. 1 and a search for "second anointing" should bring it up in the top 3, certainly the first page. 

 

 Aaaand if I would have continued to read this thread before posting, my question would have been answered. 

 

Thanks again!! 

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Apostates, party of seven

 
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thezoo:

 

Fabulous letter! Thank you for posting it. It outlines most of my thoughts and conclusions on the Book of Mormon as well but adds some additional evidences I hadn't considered or yet learned such as the Greek Psalter. (I'll have to look into this one.) 

 

This is my first post here and as I'm studying evidences which refute Book of Mormon truth claims lately, I appreciate you making this available for other's to read.

 

Out of curiosity, are you the the same "anointed one" who posted in another forum regarding having received the second endowment? Someone linked me to that thread as it is a belief and practice that has always infuriated me. It was a fascinating read.

 

And just because I MUST use this icon... 

 

Warm regards,

Melanie 

 

 Thank you Melanie. Yes, I am that "anointed one" who received the second anointing (second endowment, special blessing).

 
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 Another thing we have on our "list" next to the Book of Abraham is Zelph. My husband and I had been reading through the case against the BoA when we came across a reference to Zelph. That little tidbit broke the proverbial camel's back for my husband. He was already fuming about the BoA and other evidences that proved JS's dishonesty but the nature of JS's claims regarding Zelph was just laughable and it all came crumbling down from there. 

 

How is your family now, Tom?

 

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anointed one:

I have written to Elder Holland concerning his claims re the Book of Mormon and told him I would be posting a copy on at least 2 bulletin boards (this and RFM).

 

The letter is rather long and above the limit for a post on this board. Jeff Ricks has suggested, therefore, I post a link to the RFM posting for any who may be interested in reading.

 

The letter is on (biography board)  http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?3,498128

and the letter plus discussion posts on (discussion board)  http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,498123 .

 

I will also post his reply, when received, so that both sides may be fairly represented. 

 

anointed one, there is no competent response to your letter other than a Come Clean Statement from the first presidency of the so-called mormon church that is witnessed by the motley crew of 12 hideous impostors who have the audacity to call themselves Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ!  You have provided substantial evidence that reveals premeditated fraud on the part of founding mormon profit jo smith jr... the facts you cite don't lie but self-induced delusional warm fuzzes surely do!  Requiring members to exercise faith necessary to override overwhelming factual evidence to the contrary is all these mormon Conmen have left to fall back on!  Intelligent human beings everywhere understand that mormonism's desperate misuse of the principle of Faith is sure evidence of fraud!  It is quite clear that mindless allegiance is what the mormon profits demand!  Likely, they'll be no response to your letter what so ever!  You see, a Come Clean Statement is the final act for these deceivers of human kind/ enemies of honest truth-seekers throughout our world!  May God have mercy on their souls!  victim

 
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I very much enjoyed your letter.  I can always wish that it would be read and responded to, but alas, I have my doubts.  Much like BH Roberts, when he expressed his concern to the brethren, all he received in reply were testimonies of "I Know...."  Let us hope that one day a letter such as yours will actually make a crack in their shell and some honesty come forth from the big 15.
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