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Were Joseph Smith’s “gold plates” pure gold or were they just gold in color?
 
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I just read an article published by the LDS Corporation (https://www.lds.org/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng)   

It claims that perhaps the "gold plates were just gold-colored parchment or some kind of gold "alloy" that "had the appearance of gold."

 

This idea sets me off for some reason.  I'm nearly age 70 and I have been taught all my life about "gold plates" as though they were pure gold.  Now the apologists are claiming that "maybe" these same plates were some kind of material other than gold -- about the size of an Amazon Kindle.

 

Can't the corporation church get its message straight?

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When caught in a lie, some people are dumb enough to change their story. It's a sure sign of guilt. Criminals get caught in that trap all the time. When you are as big as a religion or nation, the few people who will call you out on it will be ignored by the vast majority. Eventually people will forget there was ever a different version of your story. You'll get away with it. I believe Orwell called this "the memory hole."

 

 

 

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Just goes to show everyone thinking here, that some people's "spiritual eyes" are unreliable at best, doesn't it?
 
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This is a wonderful article if you want to create more doubt than you clear up. I found this paragraph to be interesting, "In court, testimonies that vary slightly from each other are often seen as more truthful than when they match precisely. If all the statements are exactly the same, it can indicate that the witnesses have compared notes to fabricate a story that is too perfect." Of course they are talking about the physical description of the plates here, however why does this statement not apply to the statements of the three and then eight witnesses which seem to "match precisely...to fabricate a story..."  Actually it does.

 

 Now they are also floating the idea that perhaps the plates were a gold alloy.  So not only were the inhabitants of the new world smelting iron ore, for which there is no anthropologic evidence, but they were also making gold alloys.  Afreakingmazing!

 

These articles kill me.  Its obvious someone is surfing blogs and sites, finding statements that people have had issues with and then they are formulating short mormoncentric responses so that TBM's, when they go to their approved source of "truth" will have an answer to their burning questions.   

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Since none of them saw the "plates" with their real eyes (but only under drug influence hallucinations) JS could have had some blacksmith relative generate some light weight paper-thin lead or tin ones with a bit of iron-pyrite dripped over them...or light-colored copper. (Just in case Emma took a peek.)
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If they were really gold, how could have Joseph Smith lifted them out of the ground?  Gold isn't exactly a lightweight metal. 
 
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Joseph's own story said that he was prevented from taking the plates on the first try because he was contemplating how much he could get for all that gold. A gold colored alloy might be worth something, but the story itself implies gold, and a lot of it.
 
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These are all very "minor" adustments according to the church.

-"just small wims or details."   shouldn't really matter ;)  right?? Lol

 

Ya know, little things.

 

like whether the gold plates were really gold plates..

-small points not related to docterine

 

 

whether the greatest battle in ancient history took place near the hill cumorah by joseph smiths house where prophets said it did or outside the counry since no remnants of a battle have been revealed.

-smalll points.  wims 

 

 

whether joseph smilth used a hat to translate with a stone or whatever..

 

 

these are not big points.    

 

multiple versions of the first vision.  You should not need answers.

 

just trust

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
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skepticalthayne:

I just read an article published by the LDS Corporation (https://www.lds.org/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng)   

It claims that perhaps the "gold plates were just gold-colored parchment or some kind of gold "alloy" that "had the appearance of gold."

 

This idea sets me off for some reason.  I'm nearly age 70 and I have been taught all my life about "gold plates" as though they were pure gold.  Now the apologists are claiming that "maybe" these same plates were some kind of material other than gold -- about the size of an Amazon Kindle.

 

Can't the corporation church get its message straight?

 

 I always assumed that the Gold plates were at least part gold largely because JS was told he must not use the plates for worldy gain— implying they were made at least partly of gold. If one considers the weight that Emma and others claimed the plates to be— around 50-60 lbs—they would have to have to be metal of some sort. Parchment at that size doesn't weigh anywhere near that much.

 

Pure gold though would likely not have woked either though cuz the engravings likely would have been oblitereated under the plates own weight for 1400 years (buried under that stone).

 

I've heard the tumbaga defense from aplogists and think it's a stretch. That said I think the 200 lb approach that some critics take is not the most convincing. Personally I think there are better arguments to make. The content of the BoM itself is far more of an issue for me than the gold content of imaginary plates.

 
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They were of Blessed Gold. Triple Gold, if you will.

 

It is changed by being triple pure which makes it super light as it is infused with heavenly purity.

 

Makes as much sense as all the othelr arguments on how heavy plates that never existed weigh.

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Exactly what color ARE lies?
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From Wikipedia's "Golden Plates" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates#Descriptions_of_the_plates) there is some interesting info.

 

Especially check out the sections on:

  • Descriptions of the plates
  • Described format, binding, and dimensions
  • Described composition and weight

 

It's interesting to note the discrepancies.
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Don't forget, this is not some dry desert cave or egyptian catacomb where the plates were stored. This was a stone box in a hill where the climate is wet and humid. The box would have been damp. Any metal that would have survived 1400 years in a damp stone box would have have to be alloyed with gold or silver. Any lesser metal would have corroded away. Maybe they were stainless steel?

 

Any plates made out of some kind of metal that would have survived the centuries would be extremely heavy. I have read about the tumbaga defense, but that's still an alloy of gold and copper. A set of plates of the dimensions stated would have weighed about 90 pounds if made out of something like tumbaga. But somehow Joseph managed to pick them up and run with them, while being persued, and while fending off men who were trying to tackle him! He must have been something else!

 

Any lesser metal or other material like parchment or leather would have corroded. Any metal alloyed with gold or silver would have been too heavy to pick up and run with, or to lug around in a burlap sack as reported. No matter how you slice it, the story falls on it's face.

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Adversarys Advocate:

This was a stone box in a hill where the climate is wet and humid. The box would have been damp. Any metal that would have survived 1400 years in a damp stone box would have have to be alloyed with gold or silver. Any lesser metal would have corroded away. Maybe they were stainless steel?

 

Any lesser metal or other material like parchment or leather would have corroded. Any metal alloyed with gold or silver would have been too heavy to pick up and run with, or to lug around in a burlap sack as reported. No matter how you slice it, the story falls on it's face.

 

 Good points.

 
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Adversarys Advocate:

<snip> This was a stone box in a hill<snip>

 

   Heh-heh-heh. You are funny!

 

You meant ...a large room/cave in the hill... with swords and shelves and trunks, etc., etc. It was only temporarily in the stone box for Joe to find (he wasn't ready for the full-blown cave thing until it was time to return the records). It was in the cave, popped up in the stone box for the big reveal, then returned to the cave by Joe.

 

I'm guessing the cave was/is climate controlled, you know, like all good archival repositories are. Moisture would not have been a problem.

 

Come on, ya gotta think like an apologetic here - there is an answer for everything.

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Was always curious as to how heavy the Hebrew Levite Breastplate with the magic glasses was...with all those precious stones attached. Not so light-weight either.
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their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat) 
  •  The plates estimated weight of 60 pounds matches guess what, common tin.
  • When you look at the length of the BOM and the lost 116 pages. and calculate out the approximate number of plates available in 1/3 of a stack 2/3 sealed remember. each plate was the thickness of common tin thier  could not have been that many plates. not enough to record all the information. The language would have to be incredible information dense. Egyptian Hieroglyphs are not informationally dense. that is why the quit using them better languages came along. Hebrew is actually much more information-ally dense, more so than English or hieroglyphs. How do you end of with a super dense information transfer laungauge starting with egyptian, you don't. Short hand Hebrew would have been a better lie.
  • Everything written had to be scratched into the surface of the plates. That would make it a little difficult to write really small.
  • Also no trace of the stone box was even left behind was even the stone sacred. or did it never exist.
  • No evidence of the great battle that was supposed to have taken place at the hill of Camorra

 

 

 

 

 
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peace out:

their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat) 
  •  The plates estimated weight of 60 pounds matches guess what, common tin.
  • When you look at the length of the BOM and the lost 116 pages. and calculate out the approximate number of plates available in 1/3 of a stack 2/3 sealed remember. each plate was the thickness of common tin thier  could not have been that many plates. not enough to record all the information. The language would have to be incredible information dense. Egyptian Hieroglyphs are not informationally dense. that is why the quit using them better languages came along. Hebrew is actually much more information-ally dense, more so than English or hieroglyphs. How do you end of with a super dense information transfer laungauge starting with egyptian, you don't. Short hand Hebrew would have been a better lie.
  • Everything written had to be scratched into the surface of the plates. That would make it a little difficult to write really small.
  • Also no trace of the stone box was even left behind was even the stone sacred. or did it never exist.
  • No evidence of the great battle that was supposed to have taken place at the hill of Camorra

 

 

 

 

 

Dude!  I totally never thought of that little tidbit.

 

So even if an enterprising thief kept them wrapped up and didn't look at them, whoever he fenced them to would have gotten all Raiders of the Lost Ark face-melty.

 

 

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MorSkeptic:
Adversarys Advocate:

<snip> This was a stone box in a hill<snip>

 

   Heh-heh-heh. You are funny!

 

You meant ...a large room/cave in the hill... with swords and shelves and trunks, etc., etc. It was only temporarily in the stone box for Joe to find (he wasn't ready for the full-blown cave thing until it was time to return the records). It was in the cave, popped up in the stone box for the big reveal, then returned to the cave by Joe.

 

I'm guessing the cave was/is climate controlled, you know, like all good archival repositories are. Moisture would not have been a problem.

 

Come on, ya gotta think like an apologetic here - there is an answer for everything.

 

Dude, it was just a dumb stone box. No matter what Oliver and Joseph said later about their trip under the hill.

 

Haven't you ever seen the Arnold Friberg painting of Moroni stashing the plates? We all know that the Friberg paintings are the one true paintings. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in the priesthood manuals, right? So that proves it...........

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badseed:

I always assumed that the Gold plates were at least part gold largely because JS was told he must not use the plates for worldy gain— implying they were made at least partly of gold. If one considers the weight that Emma and others claimed the plates to be— around 50-60 lbs—they would have to have to be metal of some sort. Parchment at that size doesn't weigh anywhere near that much.

 

Pure gold though would likely not have woked either though cuz the engravings likely would have been oblitereated under the plates own weight for 1400 years (buried under that stone).

 

I've heard the tumbaga defense from aplogists and think it's a stretch. That said I think the 200 lb approach that some critics take is not the most convincing. Personally I think there are better arguments to make. The content of the BoM itself is far more of an issue for me than the gold content of imaginary plates.

 

Well that rules out parchment! But I guess in the world of apologetics, that doesn't matter. 

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Matter Unorganized:

 

Well that rules out parchment! But I guess in the world of apologetics, that doesn't matter. 

 

Tell me, my friend: In the world of apologetics, WHAT DOES MATTER?

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According the Martin Harris, the original plates were about 4 inches thick. I was curious how much information could fit on 4 inches of metal plates, so I did some math.  Assuming that each of the plates is a mere 1/16 thick (which seems to be the minimum for hand-engraving), and that they were double-sided (a generous assumption), each square inch of the plates would translate into about 2.8 square inches of the current "quad" edition (accounting of the differences in page dimensions), which is approximately 162 characters.  And that's IF we exclude the "sealed portion" as having been part of that 4 inches Harris described.

To give you an idea of what that means, Joseph Smith would have been able to get the following phrases from translating just 1 square inch of hand-engraved "Reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics:

"I Nephi having been born of goodly parents therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days" (164 characters including spaces, excluding punctuation).

OR

"As I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy wherefore I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also for I knew..."  (162 characters, including spaces, excluding punctuation). 

 

 

OR

 

"I would exhort you to come unto Christ and lay hold upon every good gift and touch not the evil gift nor the unclean thing.  Awake and arise from the dust O Jerusalem" (166 characters).  

 

 

So either they were hand engraving very, very tiny hieroglyphics, or that's some amazing language they have there. 

 

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Ms Direct:

<snip>

To give you an idea of what that means, Joseph Smith would have been able to get the following phrases from translating just 1 square inch of hand-engraved "Reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics:
<snip>

So either they were hand engraving very, very tiny hieroglyphics, or that's some amazing language they have there. 

 

 

This is seriously not a problem - check this out: http://www.flavorwire.com/229926/classic-book-chapters-written-on-grains-of-rice

 

Nephi, Alma, et al., surely had access to X-Acto knives and magnifying gasses ummm... urim and thummim ah hell, I meant peeping stones. 

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Woody:
peace out:

their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat) 
  •  The plates estimated weight of 60 pounds matches guess what, common tin.
  • When you look at the length of the BOM and the lost 116 pages. and calculate out the approximate number of plates available in 1/3 of a stack 2/3 sealed remember. each plate was the thickness of common tin thier  could not have been that many plates. not enough to record all the information. The language would have to be incredible information dense. Egyptian Hieroglyphs are not informationally dense. that is why the quit using them better languages came along. Hebrew is actually much more information-ally dense, more so than English or hieroglyphs. How do you end of with a super dense information transfer laungauge starting with egyptian, you don't. Short hand Hebrew would have been a better lie.
  • Everything written had to be scratched into the surface of the plates. That would make it a little difficult to write really small.
  • Also no trace of the stone box was even left behind was even the stone sacred. or did it never exist.
  • No evidence of the great battle that was supposed to have taken place at the hill of Camorra

 

 

 

 

 

Dude!  I totally never thought of that little tidbit.

 

So even if an enterprising thief kept them wrapped up and didn't look at them, whoever he fenced them to would have gotten all Raiders of the Lost Ark face-melty.

 

 

 

 Me either. Why bother hiding the plates when they had their own built in anti-theft system? Any unauthorized person who looked at them would fall over dead. Problem solved. Or how about God the all powerful keeping people from stealing the plates. He seemed to just about everything else to make this story work. 

 
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Shame on you all, you're just not trying hard enough!  It's all simple really.  God is MAGIC.  He can do anything!  ANYTHING!  Make metal light enough to lift, easy.  Make things like large rooms in hills and stone boxes disappear, easy.  Make all the acheological evidence of the most major battle in North and South American history disappear, easy.  God likes to make things disappear, it's kinda his thing.  That and fooling all of us stupid mortals by planting dinosaur bones in funny places, and making the earth look like it is billions of years old, but it's only thousands.  That God is a sneaky sob.  Just gotta shut that 'ol brain off and have faith people.  Puts fingers in ears and starts singing "We thank thee o god for a prophet..."
 
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Adversarys Advocate:

Don't forget, this is not some dry desert cave or egyptian catacomb where the plates were stored. This was a stone box in a hill where the climate is wet and humid. The box would have been damp. Any metal that would have survived 1400 years in a damp stone box would have have to be alloyed with gold or silver. Any lesser metal would have corroded away. Maybe they were stainless steel?

 

Any plates made out of some kind of metal that would have survived the centuries would be extremely heavy. I have read about the tumbaga defense, but that's still an alloy of gold and copper. A set of plates of the dimensions stated would have weighed about 90 pounds if made out of something like tumbaga. But somehow Joseph managed to pick them up and run with them, while being persued, and while fending off men who were trying to tackle him! He must have been something else!

 

Any lesser metal or other material like parchment or leather would have corroded. Any metal alloyed with gold or silver would have been too heavy to pick up and run with, or to lug around in a burlap sack as reported. No matter how you slice it, the story falls on it's face.

 

 Ninety pounds!  But Emma picked them up when under a kitchen towel so she could wipe down the table.  Apparently she was a closet body builder.  Maybe under all those peticoats she was a bit more muscular than Joe preferred prompting the need for polygamy.

 

And all those arguments about how big the letters are and how much were on a page are absolutely irrelevant.  The pages weren't in his hat when had his face plunged in there making up this shit. 

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skepticalthayne:

I just read an article published by the LDS Corporation (https://www.lds.org/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng)   

It claims that perhaps the "gold plates were just gold-colored parchment or some kind of gold "alloy" that "had the appearance of gold."

 

This idea sets me off for some reason.  I'm nearly age 70 and I have been taught all my life about "gold plates" as though they were pure gold.  Now the apologists are claiming that "maybe" these same plates were some kind of material other than gold -- about the size of an Amazon Kindle.

 

Can't the corporation church get its message straight?

 

The text of the Book of Mormon contradicts that claim:

 

I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates (Jacob 4:1)

 

1 Nephi 19:1-5, 12 Nephi makes plates of ore. 

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Considering how much L-dS,inc emphasizes the Poor Farm Boy, the Uneducated youth and all - how would Joseph know what gold looked like?

 

As for some in mormondom floating  gold colored parchament to petrified whale piss as an excuse - looks as if they are gradually preparing the way to denial of the foundation.

 

If nothing else, all this foolishness points to the fact L-dS,inc does not really trust what Joseph Smith claims was revealed to him nor what he saw. They just don't state it publicly.

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eddie:
skepticalthayne:

I just read an article published by the LDS Corporation (https://www.lds.org/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng)   

It claims that perhaps the "gold plates were just gold-colored parchment or some kind of gold "alloy" that "had the appearance of gold."

 

This idea sets me off for some reason.  I'm nearly age 70 and I have been taught all my life about "gold plates" as though they were pure gold.  Now the apologists are claiming that "maybe" these same plates were some kind of material other than gold -- about the size of an Amazon Kindle.

 

Can't the corporation church get its message straight?

 

The text of the Book of Mormon contradicts that claim:

 

I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates (Jacob 4:1)

 

1 Nephi 19:1-5, 12 Nephi makes plates of ore. 

 

<Adopts Apologetic mien>

 

We don't know what 'ore' Nephi meant.  'Ore' could refer to a form of parchment only found in BoM areas.  The skins of curelom and/or cumom may have made exceedingly fine parchment. 

 

</mien>

 

My cheeks were cramping with the effort to keep a straight face.

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There were no plates, gold or otherwise.  There was just a rock in a hat and JS's imagination.
 
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peace out:

their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat)

 

 

 

 I just asked missionaries on Mormon Chat that question.

 

Their answer was..... " Because Joseph was not able to sit down with the thieves and warn them that they would be destroyed if they touched them"

 

 

I kid you not that was the answer.

 

I just laugh at myself for all the years I allowed myself to believe that goofy stuff...lol 

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The Book of Mormon is Christian “Fan Fiction”.... I am not a fan :)

 
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What Is Wanted:
peace out:

their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat)

 

 

 

 I just asked missionaries on Mormon Chat that question.

 

Their answer was..... " Because Joseph was not able to sit down with the thieves and warn them that they would be destroyed if they touched them"

 

 

I kid you not that was the answer.

 

I just laugh at myself for all the years I allowed myself to believe that goofy stuff...lol 

 

Gobsmacked, that's me right now, absolutely gobsmacked.

 

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Did I mention how glad I am that this forum exists?

 
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A problem with the idea that the plates were an alloy is the small plates of Nephi.

 

It's a big enough stretch for Mormon & Moroni to have access to a complex, lightweight, golden alloy.

 

It's a different story for Nephi.  He authored the Small Plates of Nephi which were included in with the record, as is.

 

It is pretty much impossible that he would have the ability or even raw materials to create such an alloy.

 

Yet there is no mention by any witnesses to the Book of Mormon that  the plates were two different colors or that some where of one material and other were of another material.

 

Likewise, how is it that the plates Nephi made 1,000 years earlier just happened to be exaclty the same size and had margins sized correctly to be bound by Mormon?

 
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Woody:
What Is Wanted:
peace out:

their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat)

 

 

 

 I just asked missionaries on Mormon Chat that question.

 

Their answer was..... " Because Joseph was not able to sit down with the thieves and warn them that they would be destroyed if they touched them"

 

 

I kid you not that was the answer.

 

I just laugh at myself for all the years I allowed myself to believe that goofy stuff...lol 

 

Gobsmacked, that's me right now, absolutely gobsmacked.

 

Nice Job Woody !!!

 

 
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skepticalthayne:

I just read an article published by the LDS Corporation (https://www.lds.org/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng)   

It claims that perhaps the "gold plates were just gold-colored parchment or some kind of gold "alloy" that "had the appearance of gold."

 

This idea sets me off for some reason.  I'm nearly age 70 and I have been taught all my life about "gold plates" as though they were pure gold.  Now the apologists are claiming that "maybe" these same plates were some kind of material other than gold -- about the size of an Amazon Kindle.

 

Can't the corporation church get its message straight?

 

Who is the Author---Kirk B. Henrichsen---best I can tell he has an affiliation with the Neal a Maxwell Institute?

 

Who screens the material that goes into the New Era?

 

Mr. Henrichsen in his article states: "Neither Joseph nor any of the witnesses said that the ancient record was made from solid gold nor did they use the term ["GOLD PLATES"] or "plates of gold."  All Joseph said is that they had the "the apperance of gold". (see article)

 

Taken from the "Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith" in the front of my Book of Mormon, seventh paragraph (it appears that JS was quoting Moroni): "He said there was a book deposited, written on gold plates, giving..."

 

I guess Mr. Henrichsen isn't lying when he says JS did not use the term "gold plates", he just ommited the fact that MORONI, did use the  term "gold plate" and JS quoted Moroni.---WOW!!! right from the horses mouth---Moroni himself---the person of all persons that should know the composition of the pates did in fact use the term gold plates.

 

What a perfect smoke screen, get the youth of the church focused on the insignificance of the discussion as to the composition of the "gold plates", so questions like doctrinal changes to the book of mormon (see original 1830 text and current text (1 Nephi 11:18,21, 32; 13:40) and how mistranslations of the bible end up in the Book Mormon (see 2 Nephi 24 and Isaiah 14 KJV)---I love the irony found in the 8th Article of Faith---"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."---I think an addition needs to made to the end of the 8th to read ..."we also belileve the Book of Mormon to be the word of God [as far as it is plagerized correctly]."

 

One final issue I have with the article:  Henrichen makes the statement: "Ancient American metallurgists familiar with this process were able to accelerate the oxidation of silver and copper and remove its residue, leaving and enhanced gold surface."---Did I miss something here?  This is written as a statment of fact, he gives no references for this statement---Did I miss some major discovery about pre-columbian metallurgy in the Americas?---But since it is in the New Era---It's got to be true.

 

The Church should be absolutely ashamed of itself for generating and exposing the youth to this type of stuff.

 

 

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Of course we will completley ignore that the people during the BoM times in the Americas were Stone Age people and did not use metal for plates, weapons, currency or anything else of significance.

 

Gold and Silver did not come into use in Meso America until about 700 AD and it came through trade with Peru

 

So for Moroni to have gold plates at that time is a likely as Joseph Smith using an Ipad for translation.

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The Book of Mormon is Christian “Fan Fiction”.... I am not a fan :)

 
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So, another *church tenet/dogma/teaching-in-Seminary for 75+ years* is now being flushed. And the members are noticing...and leaving in droves. They can't keep up the lies, much longer.

 

Bet the church will eventually say, it was "gold-paint illumination" on vellum...skins...easily carried.  And the golden plates song/paintings and stories will wander away...like Paul Dunn's tales. 

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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Ex_aedibus:
If they were really gold, how could have Joseph Smith lifted them out of the ground?  Gold isn't exactly a lightweight metal. 

  And it is exactly that reality, when the Mormon Church was confronted with it thanks to Hal Houghey and others, that they had to change "gold" into something less than gold, a sort of "fool's gold."

 

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They were pure fantasy.
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If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. -  Dr. Gregory House.


There’s a time for diplomacy, a time for plainness and then there’s a time to just let it rip.
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The most rewarding thing in life is to live authentically.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.


There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
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What Is Wanted:
peace out:

their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat)

 

 I just asked missionaries on Mormon Chat that question.

 

Their answer was..... " Because Joseph was not able to sit down with the thieves and warn them that they would be destroyed if they touched them"

 

 I am dumbfounded. Saints preserve us!  I have had some of those kids visit me, and I have asked them some questions, and they have willingly displayed their, their, their . . . inexperience.  One asked me if the reason I have more than one Bible is because I want to know the different doctrines the different Bibles teach.  I thought that was an eye-opener. As a young Mormon, I guess I believed the same thing - different Bibles were like different scriptures - like the Koran versus the I Ching, and the Bhagavad-Gita versus the Tripitaka.  When I finally bothered to read different versions, I found there was no such unbridgeable gap in their "doctrines".  

 

But the answers your missionaries gave you. That's worth framing and putting on your wall.  If Emma hadn't been a woman , she would have had the foresight to plug her ears before Joseph uttered the warning that could mean her doom.

 

And, if Joseph hadn't been a fraud, he would have left a note opn the gold box or wool fabric or whatever the heck it was, warning any would-be thieves, they would be struck down by an angel if they tried to steal the plates. That way, they would either leave the plates alone, or they would look at them and die. Either way the plates would be safe.

 

Oh, wait, now I get it. God knew that Emma would look if she was not warned - and who can imagine what catastrophes might plague the earth if Emma had seen those gold plates! - and God also knew there would be no thieves interested in stealing thousands of dollars worth of gold; therefore God did not instruct Joseph to leave a note on the pile of gold sitting in his cabin.

 

The doctrines of the Church are beautiful to behold. 

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“Lord, stamp eternity on my eyeballs.”
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Abūmalak:
What Is Wanted:
peace out:

their is even more to this

 

  • How come if Emma was to look upon the plates she would be struck down by an angle. but joseph still felt the need to hide them to keep them from being stolen. So the plates could be stolen but not seen by his wife. ( I smell a rat)

 

 I just asked missionaries on Mormon Chat that question.

 

Their answer was..... " Because Joseph was not able to sit down with the thieves and warn them that they would be destroyed if they touched them"

 

 I am dumbfounded. Saints preserve us!  I have had some of those kids visit me, and I have asked them some questions, and they have willingly displayed their, their, their . . . inexperience.  One asked me if the reason I have more than one Bible is because I want to know the different doctrines the different Bibles teach.  I thought that was an eye-opener. As a young Mormon, I guess I believed the same thing - different Bibles were like different scriptures - like the Koran versus the I Ching, and the Bhagavad-Gita versus the Tripitaka.  When I finally bothered to read different versions, I found there was no such unbridgeable gap in their "doctrines".  

 

But the answers your missionaries gave you. That's worth framing and putting on your wall.  If Emma hadn't been a woman , she would have had the foresight to plug her ears before Joseph uttered the warning that could mean her doom.

 

And, if Joseph hadn't been a fraud, he would have left a note opn the gold box or wool fabric or whatever the heck it was, warning any would-be thieves, they would be struck down by an angel if they tried to steal the plates. That way, they would either leave the plates alone, or they would look at them and die. Either way the plates would be safe.

 

Oh, wait, now I get it. God knew that Emma would look if she was not warned - and who can imagine what catastrophes might plague the earth if Emma had seen those gold plates! - and God also knew there would be no thieves interested in stealing thousands of dollars worth of gold; therefore God did not instruct Joseph to leave a note on the pile of gold sitting in his cabin.

 

The doctrines of the Church are beautiful to behold. 

Ah yes, and the next apologist is born.

 

I actually love this example. There's no reference or even inference in the original stories to come to the conclusion the young missionary reached. He combined what he knew about culpability and a sense of fairness to what he hoped God would do (protect a thief who was unwarned of the consequences of viewing the holy). But in all honesty the original scammer (Joseph) never had that in mind.

 

The missionary is complicit in his own deception. This isn't unusual. It's human nature. Con men prey on this very flaw. They don't have to work very hard fooling people. They tell someone something that person wants to hear mixing it with what the con man wants them to believe. We tend to fill in the blanks after taking the bait.

 

Joseph's "strike you down" threat never materialized. He had a couple of buddies over for a bit of whiskey and they laughed off his warning and looked under the cover finding a prop. Joseph had a quick explanation, but duh.    

 

 

 

 

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