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Blog on Sunstone essay: Doubt goes better with faith than knowledge
 
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Thanks for posting. Almost sounds like Judaism and some flavors of Catholocism.  
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Always love your posts buff.  Is it even possible to conceive of a time when doubt becomes of greater value than knowledge or knowing?  I mean I could see how that could evolve but I can't see the brethren ever letting this happen. Can you?  
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I hoarsely cry
Well I wonder
Do you see me when we pass?
I half die
Please keep me in mind
Please keep me in mind
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This is the fierce last stand of all I am
Gasping - dying - but somehow still alive
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Well I wonder
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No matter how they "bend" it....the niggly doubt will always be there. The advocacy for not condemning members because of it...is a new idea...with old window dressing of christ-like behavior...something the church has been sorely lacking for some time. It's a bit late to attempt this...since so much animosity and shunning is part of the fabric of mormonism.
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Really, doubt may be the best friend of the church going forward.  I mean they are going to have to eventually set it up so that people know the truth and stay anyway.  Embracing doubt will be part of that solution.  The one thing the church does have going for it among their tbms is that these people don't just want the church to be true, they also don't want to have to leave the church.  That is why many times you will hear apologists defend the church in terms by muddying the waters enough so that the tbm is not required to leave the church.

 

tessa makes a great point however.  the church has been enforcing knowing and shunning for so long that it is going to take decades to unwind.  I mean the whole damn system is set up to reward people who conform their behaviors and conform the things they say and punish those who don't follow the pattern of knowing.

 

Ultimately, enforcing knowing will only be around so long as it pays the bills.  At some point it may just become a financial necessity to embrace doubt.  Of course, doubters probably won't pay as much tithing or put in as many hours of church service.  

 

Embracing doubt also seems to be more of an indulgence of the rich or idle.  I mean people need to have things in their life that freaking work.  I am not sure how much real value is created for someone when they embrace doubt to help them stay in mormonism if mormonism just is not what it claims.  If the Holy Ghost is not real.  If the priesthood is not real.  How does embracing doubt help you get more out of the 3 hour block?  How would embracing doubt help you be ok with sending your daughter to YW to watch a video about the divine roles of women?  How does embracing doubt help you pull real value out of say, a patriarchal blessing?  

 

Maybe I am just old school, but I always felt that the real value of mormonism was in the literal truths, it was in knowing it was true.  Isn't that the whole point? 

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Well I wonder
Do you hear me when you sleep?
I hoarsely cry
Well I wonder
Do you see me when we pass?
I half die
Please keep me in mind
Please keep me in mind
Gasping - but somehow still alive
This is the fierce last stand of all I am
Gasping - dying - but somehow still alive
This is the final stand of all I am
Please keep me in mind
Well I wonder
Well I wonder
Please keep me in mind
Oh, keep me in mind
Keep me in mind


Well I Wonder
The Smiths
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG1jpD6t088

 
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That "burning bosom" is getting a bit tattered...isn't it.
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Lloyd Dobler:

Really, doubt may be the best friend of the church going forward.  I mean they are going to have to eventually set it up so that people know the truth and stay anyway.  Embracing doubt will be part of that solution.  The one thing the church does have going for it among their tbms is that these people don't just want the church to be true, they also don't want to have to leave the church.  That is why many times you will hear apologists defend the church in terms by muddying the waters enough so that the tbm is not required to leave the church.

 

tessa makes a great point however.  the church has been enforcing knowing and shunning for so long that it is going to take decades to unwind.  I mean the whole damn system is set up to reward people who conform their behaviors and conform the things they say and punish those who don't follow the pattern of knowing.

 

Ultimately, enforcing knowing will only be around so long as it pays the bills.  At some point it may just become a financial necessity to embrace doubt.  Of course, doubters probably won't pay as much tithing or put in as many hours of church service.  

 

Embracing doubt also seems to be more of an indulgence of the rich or idle.  I mean people need to have things in their life that freaking work.  I am not sure how much real value is created for someone when they embrace doubt to help them stay in mormonism if mormonism just is not what it claims.  If the Holy Ghost is not real.  If the priesthood is not real.  How does embracing doubt help you get more out of the 3 hour block?  How would embracing doubt help you be ok with sending your daughter to YW to watch a video about the divine roles of women?  How does embracing doubt help you pull real value out of say, a patriarchal blessing?  

 

Maybe I am just old school, but I always felt that the real value of mormonism was in the literal truths, it was in knowing it was true.  Isn't that the whole point? 

Interesting point, Lloyd. 

Makes me wonder if and when there will be a tipping point where doubt in the church changes from "Could it possibly be false?"

to "Could it possibly be true?" (and I better stay in, just in case)

 

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Lloyd Dobler:

Really, doubt may be the best friend of the church going forward.  I mean they are going to have to eventually set it up so that people know the truth and stay anyway.  Embracing doubt will be part of that solution.  The one thing the church does have going for it among their tbms is that these people don't just want the church to be true, they also don't want to have to leave the church.  That is why many times you will hear apologists defend the church in terms by muddying the waters enough so that the tbm is not required to leave the church.

 

tessa makes a great point however.  the church has been enforcing knowing and shunning for so long that it is going to take decades to unwind.  I mean the whole damn system is set up to reward people who conform their behaviors and conform the things they say and punish those who don't follow the pattern of knowing.

 

Ultimately, enforcing knowing will only be around so long as it pays the bills.  At some point it may just become a financial necessity to embrace doubt.  Of course, doubters probably won't pay as much tithing or put in as many hours of church service.  

 

Embracing doubt also seems to be more of an indulgence of the rich or idle.  I mean people need to have things in their life that freaking work.  I am not sure how much real value is created for someone when they embrace doubt to help them stay in mormonism if mormonism just is not what it claims.  If the Holy Ghost is not real.  If the priesthood is not real.  How does embracing doubt help you get more out of the 3 hour block?  How would embracing doubt help you be ok with sending your daughter to YW to watch a video about the divine roles of women?  How does embracing doubt help you pull real value out of say, a patriarchal blessing?  

 

Maybe I am just old school, but I always felt that the real value of mormonism was in the literal truths, it was in knowing it was true.  Isn't that the whole point? 

 

 I agree wholeheartedly. I don't see any way for them to fall back on "belief is enough" when the whole basis of the One True Church is based on knowledge. The only way I can see them get out this way is to give up everything they've thought and brush away 200 years of being the Chosen People just in order to remain "the largest growing church in the world" - which obviously hasn't been true to start with.

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