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Book of Mormon similarities with Native stories…
 
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 I'm not sure what to think of this. When the missionaries came over today they talked about their experience tracting in a First Nation reservation close to where I live. They apparently went tracting on there and are teaching the cheif and even have a baptism date for him.

 

 When the missionaries started talking to the Cheif, he had said that he believed in three stories.
One about a rod leading to a tree with fruit on it, kind of like the tree of life.

One more about the of the creator (or his son) coming to heal his people.

And this one really got me because it was one that I had actually heard before: Their creation story involves their people coming from a giant clam. The missionaries compared this with the brother of Jared, but thats a bit of a stretch.

 



What's up with this? Was the Tree of Life story lifted from another native tribe on the east coast? I know that the Jesus story is told in various religions, but that tree of life similarity, it's sort of bugging me.

I mean, you can't convince me that God went to a conman and made him a prophet, and if he did, God has a sick sense of humor and I can't worship him...

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They lie to get the baptism....
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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I'm going to call the reservation tomorrow to see if I can get this sorted out.
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Tree of life myths are common to many cultures because trees are valued for many products. I wouldn't put much stock in similarities between Native legends and stories from The Book of Mormon at this point. Oral traditions of the Native people's have had plenty of time to get bastardized by both Christian and Mormon influence since 1492 and 1830, respectively. Also, Joseph Campbell's book The Power of Myth provides a pretty compelling case for a non- diffusionist origin of parallel mythologies in unrelated cultures.
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TheThomas:

 I'm not sure what to think of this. When the missionaries came over today they talked about their experience tracting in a First Nation reservation close to where I live. They apparently went tracting on there and are teaching the cheif and even have a baptism date for him.

 

 When the missionaries started talking to the Cheif, he had said that he believed in three stories.
One about a rod leading to a tree with fruit on it, kind of like the tree of life.

One more about the of the creator (or his son) coming to heal his people.

And this one really got me because it was one that I had actually heard before: Their creation story involves their people coming from a giant clam. The missionaries compared this with the brother of Jared, but thats a bit of a stretch.

 



What's up with this? Was the Tree of Life story lifted from another native tribe on the east coast? I know that the Jesus story is told in various religions, but that tree of life similarity, it's sort of bugging me.

I mean, you can't convince me that God went to a conman and made him a prophet, and if he did, God has a sick sense of humor and I can't worship him...

 

 What is funny is if you read that part of the story again, it sounds like an irrigation pipe leading to a coconut tree and the fruit is actually a coconut.

 

 That is a common thread in many hero myths around the world

 

 I have never heard that one before, but creation stories of coming from the sea are common

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It's actually fairly common for people to come up with similar ideas independently of each other so I wouldn't put too much weight into it even if they do  have myths that are kind of similar to what's in the BoM. At least that's what I've noticed from hanging out on writing forums and sites like tvtropes.org.
 
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For Science!:
It's actually fairly common for people to come up with similar ideas independently of each other so I wouldn't put too much weight into it even if they do  have myths that are kind of similar to what's in the BoM. At least that's what I've noticed from hanging out on writing forums and sites like tvtropes.org.

 I've lost track of the times I thought I had a completely original idea only to read or watch it done by someone else.

 

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Wonder how the missionaries explain "Spider Woman/White Buffalo Woman" leading the Native Tribes into and out of the underground during "fire/water" creation process?
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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TheThomas:

 I'm not sure what to think of this. When the missionaries came over today they talked about their experience tracting in a First Nation reservation close to where I live. They apparently went tracting on there and are teaching the cheif and even have a baptism date for him.

 

I call bullshit. Not just on their claims about what stories this chief agreed on, but on their very first claim of having a baptism date for this guy.

 

It's like the apologists saying that so-and-so has a PhD in some relevant field and he's really smart so you should stop thinking and just believe him.  Here they're telling you that this First Nation chief (an actual Lamanite!) was so wise from his chiefness to instantly recognize the Book of Mormon as being related to his own tribal myths, and thus to instantly recognize the truth of the gospel.  So who are you to not believe in the face of such confirmation?

 

Tie together appeal of authority with the well-worn trope of the Magical Indian / Noble Savage, and it's recruitment gold.

 

Or it's bullshit.

 

tttt

 
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I have some interest in this topic.   I actually downloaded The Travels of Marco Polo to my Kindle.

 

There are some similarities to the Book of Mormon and the 1818 Edition of the Travels of Marco Polo.   You will see that Polo describes  a Golden Tablet, an  Iron Rod, the Tree of Life, the Sword, and even a sacred compass.   These were REAL objects or REAL stories, but they originated in the Eastern Hemisphere, not the West.   Polo travels to the orient and it is believed that the Native Americans are descendents of early Asians. 

 

 

 
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When my husband and I visited a Shaker community in the east there were a lot of Tree of Life items to buy in the gift shop: "The original Shaker design of the Tree of Life was created by artist Hannah Cahoon in 1854. The Tree of Life was first seen by the artist in a vision she described as "a draft of a beautiful tree pencil'd on a large sheet of white paper ... I have since learned that this tree grows in the Spirit Land... I entreated Mother Ann to tell me the name of this tree: which she did by moving the hand of a medium to write twice over, Your Tree is the Tree of Life." The Tree of Life became a symbol of the Shakers' unity." The 1854 date post dates Joseph Smith, but I wonder if the idea of a tree of life had been floating around before that.
 
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Has anyone ever questioned the idea, that if Joseph Smith was truly "uneducated" (meaning he couldn't read or write past the 3rd/4th grade level) he wouldn't be able to "read" much of the bible nor books, nor newspapers???  

 

(Picturing him sounding out small words, skipping bigger ones.) 

 

He may have only "heard" tales told by his peers/religious zealots in the neighborhood/authors visiting town hall....and stolen those ideas for his scam.

 

Which is why the 116 pages missing were a problem, he couldn't remember them...and he didn't write, so Oliver Cowdery was more educated.

 

Oliver should have remembered the 116 pages, but it was easier on the scam not to try

 

. It was tall-tales stolen from various sources that JS couldn't resist grabbing and using.

 

Re: Tree of Life....it's an old Jewish/Kabbalah idea.... 

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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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True to the Truth:
TheThomas:

 I'm not sure what to think of this. When the missionaries came over today they talked about their experience tracting in a First Nation reservation close to where I live. They apparently went tracting on there and are teaching the cheif and even have a baptism date for him.

 

I call bullshit. Not just on their claims about what stories this chief agreed on, but on their very first claim of having a baptism date for this guy.

 

It's like the apologists saying that so-and-so has a PhD in some relevant field and he's really smart so you should stop thinking and just believe him.  Here they're telling you that this First Nation chief (an actual Lamanite!) was so wise from his chiefness to instantly recognize the Book of Mormon as being related to his own tribal myths, and thus to instantly recognize the truth of the gospel.  So who are you to not believe in the face of such confirmation?

 

Tie together appeal of authority with the well-worn trope of the Magical Indian / Noble Savage, and it's recruitment gold.

 

Or it's bullshit.

 

tttt

 

Regarding the baptism date being set, back in the days of flannel boards and six discussions, the baptism date was set towards the end of the first discussion, and naturally, in the finest tradition of door to door sales, it wasn't a yes or no situation:

 

Elder OldDog:  ...So if the spirit confirms the truth of what we're teaching you, would you be baptised into the church?

 

Indian Chief:  If I knew it was true?  Well, I suppose I would...

 

Elder OldDog:  Okay, then just as a goal date, and if you come to know the truth of this, would you want to be baptised on Tuesday, the 25th, or Saturday, the 29th; which date is better?

 

Indian Chief:  Whoa, there, I'm not saying I'm getting baptised!

 

Elder OldDog:  This is just conditional because of course we wouldn't let you get baptized unless you knew the church was true.  It's just a sort of target date.  So just speaking condtionally, which day is better, Tuesday or Saturday?

 

Indian Chief:  Well, I am the bingo caller at the casino on Saturdays...

 

Elder OldDog:  Okay then, we'll just pencil you in for Tuesday the 25th.  Now then, moving on....... 

 
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Might have been stuff they just said to me to try and get me to come back. My Dad said that they really were teaching the Chief. I believe him because my Dad isn't a liar and er, he actually did go with them to teach him. I'm looking into this a little more, and part of that is because I'm actually genuinely interested in Native cultures.
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Elder OldDog:

Regarding the baptism date being set, back in the days of flannel boards and six discussions, the baptism date was set towards the end of the first discussion, and naturally, in the finest tradition of door to door sales, it wasn't a yes or no situation:

 

Elder OldDog:  ...So if the spirit confirms the truth of what we're teaching you, would you be baptised into the church?

 

Indian Chief:  If I knew it was true?  Well, I suppose I would...

 

Elder OldDog:  Okay, then just as a goal date, and if you come to know the truth of this, would you want to be baptised on Tuesday, the 25th, or Saturday, the 29th; which date is better?

 

Indian Chief:  Whoa, there, I'm not saying I'm getting baptised!

 

Elder OldDog:  This is just conditional because of course we wouldn't let you get baptized unless you knew the church was true.  It's just a sort of target date.  So just speaking condtionally, which day is better, Tuesday or Saturday?

 

Indian Chief:  Well, I am the bingo caller at the casino on Saturdays...

 

Elder OldDog:  Okay then, we'll just pencil you in for Tuesday the 25th.  Now then, moving on....... 

 

You forgot about what happens when the chief tries to back out because he never received an answer to his prayers.

 

Indian Chief: Elders I don't think I should be baptized, I never received a response to my prayers.

 

Cornelius: That is ok, a testimony will come if you just exercise faith and show God you are willing to commit your life to him by being baptized.

 

Indian Chief: But you said I would receive an answer, why hasn't God answered me

 

Cornelius: Maybe he is just testing you, or maybe you are like the people in 3 Nephi 11. Where God is speaking to them, they just can't hear him.

 

Indian Chief: I still don't know about this?

 

Cornelius: Well the relief society already has a potluck planned and we already printed out the programs for the baptism, everyone in the ward is so excited, you wouldn't want to disappoint them?

 

Indian Chief: Ok, I guess we can still have it.

 

It makes me kind of ill remembering how many people I coerced into getting baptized after they tried to back out. 

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If you're wondering about parallel development and cultural diffusion, take a gander at this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne-Thompson_classification_system 

 

There is a taxonomic system for it.

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Those who study and truly understand Native American(Lamanite) culture, history and traditions know with a surety that the Book of Mormon plays a great part in their lives and is truth.

 

So many Native American(Lamanite) stories and tales are replete with words and phrases that, translated correctly..., mean "it came to pass". These do not refer to Native Americn(Lamanite) football teams on the reservation but are words directly from the Book of Mormon. If you do not believe me - read the Book of Mormon and Pray about it and you too shall see in many places the phrase "it came to pass".

 

Even modern movies and television incorporate this. Great cultural iconic shows such as The Lone Ranger have the faithful Indian companion(an allegorical reference to the Lamanites who saved the Pilgrims by taking care of them by teaching them how to get food) who use this phrase often. Ever wonder what "Kemosabe" really means in Native American? It is a holdover from Reformed Egyptian derived from the Pure Adamic Language and its meaning is 'it came to pass' - tho in the context of The Long Ranger artistic license has it as 'it comes to pass'. Certainly explains Tonto using it so often and the Lone Rangers stoic attitude on hearing it so often.

 

Don't question the Native American Traditions because there is so much more that proves the Book of Mormon is their true history!

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Nephi:

Those who study and truly understand Native American(Lamanite) culture, history and traditions know with a surety that the Book of Mormon plays a great part in their lives and is truth.

 

So many Native American(Lamanite) stories and tales are replete with words and phrases that, translated correctly..., mean "it came to pass". These do not refer to Native Americn(Lamanite) football teams on the reservation but are words directly from the Book of Mormon. If you do not believe me - read the Book of Mormon and Pray about it and you too shall see in many places the phrase "it came to pass".

 

Even modern movies and television incorporate this. Great cultural iconic shows such as The Lone Ranger have the faithful Indian companion(an allegorical reference to the Lamanites who saved the Pilgrims by taking care of them by teaching them how to get food) who use this phrase often. Ever wonder what "Kemosabe" really means in Native American? It is a holdover from Reformed Egyptian derived from the Pure Adamic Language and its meaning is 'it came to pass' - tho in the context of The Long Ranger artistic license has it as 'it comes to pass'. Certainly explains Tonto using it so often and the Lone Rangers stoic attitude on hearing it so often.

 

Don't question the Native American Traditions because there is so much more that proves the Book of Mormon is their true history!

 

 

Sorry, but you got the translation of Kemosabe wrong.

 

 

 

 

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Nothing in the Book of Mormon identifies with Native American culture. Where are the powerful women, the important clans, the worship of other animals in the circle of life? Indeed, where are feathers, colorful birds and coming of age traditions? All I read about are horses and steel swords and huge battles and Native skin which God turned black...
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I had a very real tree of life vision myself after ingesting a healthy dose of psilocybin mushrooms in the forest... This entheogenic practice is and has always been very common among native peoples. I personally believe it highly probable that Joseph Smith used these botanic tools to induce his first vision and many other visions that seemed to be so common in the early days of the chuch.
 
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I was very busy working and didn't get a chance to fully respond to this important topic.

 

As I read the Travels of Marco Polo, a book which was released in 1818, I am so impressed with its spirituality and many of the symbols which are included in the Book of Mormon.

 

The "Iron Rod" was actually a long, spear-type rod, which was used by the Natives to hunt whales.   They would get the  whale drunk and when he was thus intoxicated, the brave men would grasp the rod and piece the whale right through the head, killing it instantly.

 

The Iron Rod took on supreme importance as whale meat and oil where essential for life.

Iron is very heavy and difficult to hold, especially when one is sailing afloat a ship in rough water.   There is a deep spiritual analogy between holding onto the rod amid the furry of the ocean which suggests strength and courage during adversity.

 

If one were to drop the rod, the rod would quickly sink to the bottom of the ocean and be forever lost.   Young men of this tribe were taught "Hold to the rod".

 

As I read the Book of Mormon, I can see similarities and echoes.   Nephi used alcohol to get Laban drunk.   Once Laban was drunk, he beheaded him.   Marco Polo described the practice of intoxicating an animal before slaughtering it.

 

As for the tree of life, there is a sacred legend that Mohammed had a staff of wood.   It is said that from Mohammed's staff sprang an entire tree  (it is possible that a seed was within that wooden staff).   This story is told over and over again. 

 
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lostandfound:

 

snip 

 

The "Iron Rod" was actually a long, spear-type rod, which was used by the Natives to hunt whales.   They would get the  whale drunk and when he was thus intoxicated, the brave men would grasp the rod and piece the whale right through the head, killing it instantly.

 

The Iron Rod took on supreme importance as whale meat and oil where essential for life.

Iron is very heavy and difficult to hold, especially when one is sailing afloat a ship in rough water.   There is a deep spiritual analogy between holding onto the rod amid the furry of the ocean which suggests strength and courage during adversity.

 

If one were to drop the rod, the rod would quickly sink to the bottom of the ocean and be forever lost.   Young men of this tribe were taught "Hold to the rod".

 

snip

 

I find it plausible that Far East Asian natives used iron implements in whaling, but I question the logistics of getting a whale drunk. This idea is way more interesting than anything in the BoM.

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kinderhooker:
lostandfound:

 

snip 

 

The "Iron Rod" was actually a long, spear-type rod, which was used by the Natives to hunt whales.   They would get the  whale drunk and when he was thus intoxicated, the brave men would grasp the rod and piece the whale right through the head, killing it instantly.

 

The Iron Rod took on supreme importance as whale meat and oil where essential for life.

Iron is very heavy and difficult to hold, especially when one is sailing afloat a ship in rough water.   There is a deep spiritual analogy between holding onto the rod amid the furry of the ocean which suggests strength and courage during adversity.

 

If one were to drop the rod, the rod would quickly sink to the bottom of the ocean and be forever lost.   Young men of this tribe were taught "Hold to the rod".

 

snip

 

I find it plausible that Far East Asian natives used iron implements in whaling, but I question the logistics of getting a whale drunk. This idea is way more interesting than anything in the BoM.

 

 Yes, according to Maro Polo, the Whalers of the Arabian Sea used to gather a small fish and pickle it with a special brine.   These created a flavor that proved irresistable to whales.   As the whale at the bits of pickled fish, he would "become intoxicated just as a man is intoxicated by wine"   Once intoxicated, the whalers would drive the iron rod through the head of the whale.

 
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lostandfound:

 

 

 Yes, according to Maro Polo, the Whalers of the Arabian Sea used to gather a small fish and pickle it with a special brine.   These created a flavor that proved irresistable to whales.   As the whale at the bits of pickled fish, he would "become intoxicated just as a man is intoxicated by wine"   Once intoxicated, the whalers would drive the iron rod through the head of the whale.

 

 Thanks for the further explanation. I wonder what was in that brine!

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