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Official church historian admits the church leaders have been lying
 
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The webpage below is taken from an itnerview of Steven Snow, the church's head historian. In it he essentially admits that the church leaders have been lying about it's past. He also tacitly admits that they would still be lying were it not for the internet.

 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/truth-in-church-history-excerpts-from-the-religious-educators-qa-with-elder-steven-snow/

 

Below is a copy of the content of the page with my comments inserted. 

 

On the Church’s increasing openness with regard to history:

“My view is that being open [honest] about our history solves a whole lot more problems than it creates. We might not have all the answers, but if we are open [honest] (and we now have pretty remarkable transparency), then I think in the long run that will serve us well [nothing said about it being the right thing to do]. I think in the past there was a tendency to keep a lot of the records closed or at least not give access to information [they suppressed truth]. But the world has changed in the last generation—with the access to information on the Internet, we can’t continue that pattern [of dishonesty]; I think we need to continue to be more open [honest].”

On improving Seminary and Institute curriculum: 

“That is where we need to improve. Fortunately Seminaries and Institutes and Curriculum have really stepped up and said in essence, ‘You know we really want to take this on, we would like to talk about these sensitive issues in our seminaries and institutes.’ It’s one thing to tell a fourteen-year-old some of these sensitive things and they say, ‘OK, that’s great.’ [because they're young and gullible] But sometimes when you are twenty-something, it comes across a little differently [as in, "That's bullshit"]. I think we can build faith and better prepare people if we will weave some of the unusual [true but faith-damaging] threads in history into the curriculum.” [nothing said about improving sunday school, gospel doctrine, and priesthood curriculum] 

On the claim that only believing Latter-day Saints can write an accurate history of the Church:

“I don’t agree with that. I think it depends what you call Mormon history and Church history. If you are making a distinction between those two, then maybe you could say that. I think the facts are the facts. We may not understand all the reasons and we may want to make some explanation. We are not always in possession of all the facts. I think we need to be as accurate as we can, as faith promoting as we can, but we need to continue to seek new truths and insights. . Every week is like discovery time. There are new treasures that come to light, and it deepens our understanding. We can find things that may shift our thinking a little bit.

“Every generation rewrites history [he tacitly admits the church has rewritten its history] a little bit with their own methods and perspectives; that’s okay [an historian essentially says that it's okay to fabricate history]. We try to tell the story as accurately as possible [while leaving many of the important facts out] and then we hope there will be those of faith who will step forward and add other insights [so they can be the fall guys, not us]. Many with whom you associate at BYU write faith-promoting works based on the history we find. I think we need to be very careful that we are accurate, because if we aren’t [and if we keep producing the same non-scholarly crap], it can come back to really haunt us. It’s good to tell the truth. [no freaking kidding!]

On dealing with difficult aspects of Church history:

“You have to approach it with faith [make-believe], and you’ve got to balance faith [make-believe] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [make-believe] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [make-believe] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [make-believe] 

 

 

[Edited a few times to add additional insights that came to me] 

 

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Awesome.   (yawn)  How anyone can say we need to be "accurate" followed up by "yet balance faith with reason"  Well, that's why I'm here and no longer believe, I chose the accurate part  and stopped trying to balance that with, as you put it, make believe.  I found it an impossible feat that would never balance out.
 
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I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?
 
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fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?

 

These days I think of faith this way. Faith is appropriate when describing a calculated, reasoned, tenative conclusion. Faith is inappropriate when used as an excuse to adamantly believe in something imagined that's based on little to no evidence.  I think it's better to leave the blanks blank rather than fill them in with wishful thinking.

 

 

 

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Just keep shoveling that poo, higher and deeper.
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Wow, is this guy walking a tightrope or what?  Reading his words, I could see his mind carefully choosing each word and concept.  He has to be honest enough so he retains at least a little credibility because the horse has clearly left the barn while at the same time talking in enough code to keep tbms from not giving any of this a second thought.

 

Welcome to being the head church historian................BITCH! (in honor of Jesse Pinkman and the show breaking bad) 

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You wanna leave me baby be my guest
All I’m gonna do is cry
And then I’m gonna find me someone else
And tear the stars out of the sky
You don’t need me anymore
They say storms are right for summertime
Well, baby I’m long gone
Whatcha gonna do
When you open your eyes?
It’s a brand new day and baby
No blue skies

 

No Blue Skies
Lloyd Cole
http://vimeo.com/92588634

 
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Jeff Ricks:
fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?

 

These days I think of faith this way. Faith is appropriate when describing a calculated, reasoned, tenative conclusion. Faith is inappropriate when used as an excuse to adamantly believe in something imagined that's based on little to no evidence.  I think it's better to leave the blanks blank rather than fill them in with wishful thinking.

 

 

 

 

 thanks, Jeff. That gives me something to think about. Wishful thinking is so fun -- but it probably should stay at disneyland. 

 

My daughter watched animated movie about a princesses, a prince, and a swan. After the movie she said, some of that was real and some of that was pretend (a strategy from school about understanding fantacy.) Then she said, it is true because there COULD be a prince and princess that loved each other and not married, and it is not true becasue you can turn into a swan.  She actually took me off gaurd, and then I came back to reality and said, "You are right about the swan. But actually this whole story is pretend. That is what fiction means. Non-fiction means it actually happened -- not just that is CAN happen." Anyway, make believe is fun. But I see now that part of it in my life was causing a lot of pain, and as I have mentioned -- i decided it is not fair to take my love of make believe into my children's reality. I feel a great loss of innocene. A great mourning for my faith. 

 

I am still faithful and prone to make believe. It is who I am. : ) 

 
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fled Utah:
Jeff Ricks:
fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?

 

These days I think of faith this way. Faith is appropriate when describing a calculated, reasoned, tenative conclusion. Faith is inappropriate when used as an excuse to adamantly believe in something imagined that's based on little to no evidence.  I think it's better to leave the blanks blank rather than fill them in with wishful thinking.

 

 

 

 

 thanks, Jeff. That gives me something to think about. Wishful thinking is so fun -- but it probably should stay at disneyland. 

 

My daughter watched animated movie about a princesses, a prince, and a swan. After the movie she said, some of that was real and some of that was pretend (a strategy from school about understanding fantacy.) Then she said, it is true because there COULD be a prince and princess that loved each other and not married, and it is not true becasue you can turn into a swan.  She actually took me off gaurd, and then I came back to reality and said, "You are right about the swan. But actually this whole story is pretend. That is what fiction means. Non-fiction means it actually happened -- not just that is CAN happen." Anyway, make believe is fun. But I see now that part of it in my life was causing a lot of pain, and as I have mentioned -- i decided it is not fair to take my love of make believe into my children's reality. I feel a great loss of innocene. A great mourning for my faith. 

 

I am still faithful and prone to make believe. It is who I am. : ) 

 

I was there in my early post-Mormon days too, so I understand.

 

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fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?

  (oh, you both already replied, nvm)

 If faith is being used in this context to supposedly balance truths already known in the church's favor, it sounds a lot like make believe. You're going to have to make believe that event didn't happen like that or make believe your integrity away to keep having that faith. The church gives you a package showing how virtuous old church leaders were as proof of the church being true, after all, why would god come down for joseph smith the 7,983,947,122nd greatest man to live on this earth? Given the real history of the church, there are better examples of people out there to live by. "Know them by their fruits." You could say it's a matter of having more faith, but this wasn't the thing I was told to have faith in to begin with. I was told to have faith in the uneducated, non-adulterous, saintly farm boy. Deception being uncovered in this context to me seems to require make believe to continue.  

 

Faith itself and why I do not ascribe to it is a whole in judeo-christian dogma is a seperate entity that took me a few years of introspection, reading, and critical thinking to get to the conclusions I have now.  I can't speak for anyone else, but we all have our own reasons. Just because the church gave us a bad experience with it doesn't mean we're all going to stop being religious and/or spiritual. Nor does it mean the only legitimate reasons we do stop when some of us do is because of the church.

 

 

____________________

It's good to hear some dressed up honesty from officials in the church though.  

 
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One of the things that stuck out the most to me was this little parathetical statement

.....(and we now have pretty remarkable transparency).....

 

First of all, in my book, for a church to have 100% transparency would not be remarkable, it is to be expected.  Anything less would be remarkably bad. 

 

And secondly... "now"??  We now have pretty remarkable transparency?

So up until now, the spin, whitewash, obfuscation, lies were OK?

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Very nice write-up Jeff.
 
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dave (e_nomo):

One of the things that stuck out the most to me was this little parathetical statement

.....(and we now have pretty remarkable transparency).....

 

First of all, in my book, for a church to have 100% transparency would not be remarkable, it is to be expected.  Anything less would be remarkably bad. 

 

And secondly... "now"??  We now have pretty remarkable transparency?

So up until now, the spin, whitewash, obfuscation, lies were OK?

 

Good call, Dave. The church leader's more open behavior is only remarkable when compared to their despicable behavior of the past. But when compared to normal standards, it's still despicable.

 

 

I want to make note that Snow's confessions (and I use that word loosely in the case) will not be seen by probably 95% of the members of the church. The comments are directed at church employed educators, AND to receive the full article you have to subscribe to the magazine, even if you're an educator. I purchased a one year subscription so I can read the entire Snow interview. Apparently I'll receive the issue in the mail. It's not accessible via the Internet for another year. "Remarkably transparent"? Bull freaking shit! 

 

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MormonThink:
Very nice write-up Jeff.

 

Thanks Bill! 

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So the educators (seminary/institute teachers) are being asked to participate in the huge cover-up? Hope some have the integrity not to do this.
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Jeff Ricks:

On dealing with difficult aspects of Church history:

“You have to approach it with faith [group think], and you’ve got to balance faith [group think] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [group think] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [group think] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [group think]

Faith is just a euphamism for group think.

 

"Religion is simply a community [group] of people who gather together on a regular basis to reassure each other that it's okay to continue subscribing to absurdities [group think]. But for me, it's far better to see the world the way it really exists, [through accurate observation and independent thought] rather than persist in delusion [group think], no matter how comforting or reassuring that may seem."  

Carl Sagan

 

This is quite a telling statement, coming from the 'Church Historian'. 

 


"Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along." Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

 

"Religion is simply a community of people who gather together on a regular basis to reassure each other that it's okay to continue subscribing to absurdities. But for me, it's far better to see the world the way it really exists, rather than persist in delusion, no matter how comforting or reassuring that may seem."  Carl Sagan

 

Reality is too harsh a thing for most people to handle without first passing it through some kind of a filter. As a result, we have always made up these abstractions of reality, like myths, metaphors, analogies, and symbols, like "God", "Truth", "Good" and "Evil" to help us simplify the complex and chaotic cosmos that surrounds us. 

But for people like Sagan, the mystery of reality is a beautiful and AWE inspiring thing to behold.
Life on Earth is what matters, not some life in some 'other world' that may not even exist except in the imagination of fools, who propogate their delusion for self gratification and personal gain. 

 

 

 

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I've noticed with every commnet from an LDS leaders that seems to be step or two forward there is always a follow-up disclaimer or step back. Ucthdorf has done it in his talks and Snow is doing the same. After all the talk about being open— which I find completely self-serving — there is the language that is subtle aimed at faithful LDS ignoring all that will be learned with the forthcoming openness.

 

I dont expect anything else really. I just find it telling.

 

These moves are like BP clean up efforts or Wall Street bankers complying with new regulations. They got caught and it's game over unless they adjust. But make no mistake— they really aren't doing this because they believe in it. It's all about self-preservation IMO.

 
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"My view is that being open about our history solves a whole lot more problems than it creates."

 

 

Why is a leader of a church that bills itself as Truth Restored even weighing the pros and cons of telling the truth? They're god damn hypocrites. 

 

 

 

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Jeff Ricks:

"My view is that being open about our history solves a whole lot more problems than it creates."

 

 

Why is a leader of a church that bills itself as Truth Restored even weighing the pros and cons of telling the truth? They're god damn hypocrites. 

 

 

 

 

I get your anger Jeff. 
Words mean something to people like you and me. 

Words like 'truth' mean something.

Words like 'beauty' mean something.

 

"Truth is beauty and beauty is truth

That is all we know in life

And all we need to know"

John Keats,

Ode to a Grecian Urn

 

Until Mormons can convince the rest of us non-Mormons that provable lies represent 'truth' it's not truth. It's the opposite of truth.

 

It's provable lies. It's clearly fraudulent if it's not true.

 

What actually led me to announce to the Mormon world that I was no longer Mormon was sitting in the middle of a Priesthood Session of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in a sea of suits, my neighbors, friends, the Dr. who delivered all of our children, o  ne of whom was sleeping on my shoulder, while the Prophet spoke and said these words, "Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
I said aloud, "It is a fraud." 
And walked out.
I actually believed those words and took them to heart. 
Apparently the church historian did not. 

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Jeff Ricks:
*snip*

“You have to approach it with faith [make-believe], and you’ve got to balance faith [make-believe] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [make-believe] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [make-believe] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [make-believe] 

 

 

[Edited a few times to add additional insights that came to me] 

 

 

 [    ] This is what I like to call a red flag. It doesn't have to mean that something is wrong but it does mean you should look very closely so as to avoid being scammed. He is very, very close to saying, "You will find things that make the church look like a fraud. They will look very bad. Remember that you believed in the church before you looked into the 'history' and 'facts'." (I honestly picture finger quotes for the last part). The whole paragraph seems to be saying that the facts look bad but FAITH! (said like the dog says squirrel in UP). It is still a few steps away from admitting that things in Mormon history are f'ed up and point very strongly to the church being false.

 
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fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?

 This is definitely how I feel. Nevermo friends who know my past have asked me if I'd ever join another religion or if I still consider myself a person of faith. I did have experiences as a Mormon that I considered spiritual confirmations that the church was true. I later found incontrovertible evidence that it was not. Therefore, I mistrust my feelings as proof of truth. My emotions and ability to believe were so inextricably tied to the Mormon church that I find myself unable to consider faith in another context. Maybe someday that will change. I honestly don't feel that much need for faith, though. My life is better now than it was when I had faith. And if it turns out there's a god who will judge me when I die, I assume trying to be a good person will be good enough. No all-knowing being would require special handshakes and abstention from coffee I order to be with one's family. Why worry about it when there's no way to know? There's so much to enjoy in life.

 

 

 
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badseed:

I've noticed with every commnet from an LDS leaders that seems to be step or two forward there is always a follow-up disclaimer or step back. Ucthdorf has done it in his talks and Snow is doing the same. After all the talk about being open— which I find completely self-serving — there is the language that is subtle aimed at faithful LDS ignoring all that will be learned with the forthcoming openness.

 

I dont expect anything else really. I just find it telling.

   

 

 Yeah, my expectations aren't that high either. As you mentioned the Uchtdorf speech well there's a prime example from the last general conference from him (as we all know).

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us

 

First he goes...

 

"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine."

 

 So he admits that church leaders haven't always been doing things according to values, principles or doctrine. So.. Uchtdorf admits that some church leaders have been dishonest and cheats, which might actually upset and cause doubt in people... 

 

"Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."

 

So first he admits that the doubts that people might have are indeed justified, but then tries to dismiss the doubts minimizing peoples ability to think straight aka. doubt when there's justification for doubt.

 

So yes, the elder Snows talk is well in line with the Ucthdorf speech. First aknowledging that there's indeed room for doubt, but then going against the very thing claiming that through faith and dismissing your logic, reasoning and doubts you'll receive the answers to the "big and important questions".

 

BAH!

 
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I get the feeling that the "new" historian is going to be going emeritus sometime soon. Like Jensen. Might be a job that the church will someday...dissolve.
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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finex:
badseed:

I've noticed with every commnet from an LDS leaders that seems to be step or two forward there is always a follow-up disclaimer or step back. Ucthdorf has done it in his talks and Snow is doing the same. After all the talk about being open— which I find completely self-serving — there is the language that is subtle aimed at faithful LDS ignoring all that will be learned with the forthcoming openness.

 

I dont expect anything else really. I just find it telling.

   

 

 Yeah, my expectations aren't that high either. As you mentioned the Uchtdorf speech well there's a prime example from the last general conference from him (as we all know).

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us

 

First he goes...

 

"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine."

 

 So he admits that church leaders haven't always been doing things according to values, principles or doctrine. So.. Uchtdorf admits that some church leaders have been dishonest and cheats, which might actually upset and cause doubt in people... 

 

"Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."

 

So first he admits that the doubts that people might have are indeed justified, but then tries to dismiss the doubts minimizing peoples ability to think straight aka. doubt when there's justification for doubt.

 

So yes, the elder Snows talk is well in line with the Ucthdorf speech. First aknowledging that there's indeed room for doubt, but then going against the very thing claiming that through faith and dismissing your logic, reasoning and doubts you'll receive the answers to the "big and important questions".

 

BAH!

 

Along the same lines, this line from Snow's interview is essentially mutually exclusive: "I think we need to be as accurate as we can, as faith promoting as we can..." 

 

"Doubt the greater accuracy, before you doubt your faith," Ucht-dork would say. 

 

 I say, "Doubt the duplicious double-talk before you doubt the facts."

 

 

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"Doubt the greater accuracy"....translated: On Oz, we never look behind the curtain. 
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I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

 
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Blue Pill or Red Pill - Morpheus The Matrix

 

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-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Official church historian admits the church leaders have been lying

 

 

 

 History is always written wrong, and so always needs to be rewritten. ...What is interesting is brought forward as if it had been central and efficacious in the march of events, and harmonies are turned into causes. Kings and generals are endowed with motives appropriate to what the historian values in their actions; plans are imputed to them prophetic of their actual achievements, while the thoughts that really preoccupied them remain buried in absolute oblivion.

- George Santayana, The Life of Reason: Reason in Science, 1918

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sage:

 

Official church historian admits the church leaders have been lying

 

 

 

 History is always written wrong, and so always needs to be rewritten. ...What is interesting is brought forward as if it had been central and efficacious in the march of events, and harmonies are turned into causes. Kings and generals are endowed with motives appropriate to what the historian values in their actions; plans are imputed to them prophetic of their actual achievements, while the thoughts that really preoccupied them remain buried in absolute oblivion.

- George Santayana, The Life of Reason: Reason in Science, 1918

 

Sage, it's understandable that human biases enter into the writing of history because we're not perfect. The church leaders are guilty of something different, however. Any honest historian does his or her best to faithfully write history. The church leaders are guilty of intentionally misrepresenting it. 

 

 

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Jeff Ricks:
sage:

      

 

Sage, it's understandable that human biases enter into the writing of history because we're not perfect. The church leaders are guilty of something different, however. Any honest historian does his or her best to faithfully write history. The church leaders are guilty of intentionally misrepresenting it. 

 

 

 

 I totally agree. I previously thought many if not all of the GAs really believed what they were selling. More and more though, I am coming to the conclusion they damn well know they are standing in deep fertilizer.

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quietlydifferent:
Jeff Ricks:
*snip*

“You have to approach it with faith [make-believe], and you’ve got to balance faith [make-believe] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [make-believe] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [make-believe] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [make-believe] 

 

 

[Edited a few times to add additional insights that came to me] 

 

 

 [    ] This is what I like to call a red flag. It doesn't have to mean that something is wrong but it does mean you should look very closely so as to avoid being scammed. He is very, very close to saying, "You will find things that make the church look like a fraud. They will look very bad. Remember that you believed in the church before you looked into the 'history' and 'facts'." (I honestly picture finger quotes for the last part). The whole paragraph seems to be saying that the facts look bad but FAITH! (said like the dog says squirrel in UP). It is still a few steps away from admitting that things in Mormon history are f'ed up and point very strongly to the church being false.

 

 When I write my family exit letter, I plan to tell them that I hope they like being red because the church hopes to turn them into lobsters--cooking them slowly so they won't feel a thing.  Lets face it, a lot of intelligent members will leave--like most of us did; however, there will be some whose need to believe is stronger than their need for truth.  Those will fight--even with themselves--to stay in.  We saw the same pattern in the FLDS women for whom a reporter played an audio tape of Warren Jeffs groaning as he raped young girls in their "temple."  These women chose to believe he was still a prophet and said that it was god--testing their faith.  This kind of thinking is what makes religious fanatisicm an acquired mental illness.  

 

On the up-side, there will be plenty members who will be horrified at the truth and will leave.  The more light that is shone on the ugly truths--the harder it will be for reasonable members to stay in.  What a happy, wonderful thing it is to be a shiner of light! We are on the winning team!

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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH

 
       
 


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