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Rock in a Hat on lds.org
 
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For your consideration and comment:

 

http://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng 

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OK,  so I find this interesting. 

 

it says

" The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure."

 

So it states that like others, they would use "seer stones" to find buried treasure.  I am kind of suprised that it just flat out says it.....  Again, the seer stone is something I had never heard of before about a month and a half ago. (Although I am finding a bunch of doctirine that I had never heard before. Makes me wonder just how much I really understood about the church. I felt like I had a really good grasp on it all lol)

 

And then this has been a question for me since I heard of these stones. This article says " According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."

 

 

So...here is my question.  IF this is how he did part or MOST of the BofM. (Other things I have read state that he did this after he lost the 116 pages. So everything we have is from this method.) So if this is how he did it,  then is it really "translation"?  As he's not looking at the book,  he's just reading words that appear in this hat.

 

 Thanks for posting this link.  I am still in AWE at everything. 

 

I sit at home and think,   Maybe I am wrong. maybe the church is true and I am just being fooled. But then I see things like this.  And old teachings..... I just can't believe what I am seeing.  

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One of the interesting things about all of these essays is how the church tries to still preserve the miracle of the restoration while at the same time having to disclose facts that show the restoration as anything but miraculous.

 

One thing that hit me early on in my study of the truth about the church was just how ordinary the church is..........I mean every single aspect of the restoration, when looked at with all the available facts, is just dudes making crap up as they go, copying stuff, lying about stuff, trying to get chicks, get power and get money.

 

The church wants to somehow tell us more facts about Santa but still make us believe that he gets around and delivers the presents to everybody anyway.

 

If members read this and then go to mormonthink, they are still going to be pissed and feel lied to.  I don't think any of the essays so far released would help a member feel that they were not lied to AFTER reading the essay and then AFTER doing further research.  If anything, the member will only more clearly see how the church is obfuscating the truth.

 

I am pretty much not a fan of the church. 

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"Joseph Smith stands out among God’s prophets, because he was called to render into his own language an entire volume of scripture amounting to more than 500 printed pages, containing doctrine that would deepen and expand the theological understanding of millions of people."

 

 

This couldn't be more wrong. JS didn't render the BOM into his own language. JS spoke 19th century English, but the BOM is written in 16th century English as so elloquently put by Richard Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzZvR5HLm8Q

 

I've heard the language of his day argument before when this is brought up, but then I thought about the Richard Dawkins statement more carefully. The Bible is written entirely in 16th/17th century English. Modern Bibles are written in modern language. The only logical reason to write something in old English would be to allow himself to freely quote, "borrow," and in the case of a good portion of the BOM steal material from the KJV Bible should he run out of material or need evidence to back up the claims of the characters in the book.

 
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-

 ...more than 500 printed pages, containing doctrine that would deepen and expand the theological understanding of millions of people."

 

And what doctrine exactly does the BoM "deepen and expand?"

 

The Godhead? well, in it's original state before JS started changing the beginning chapters, it said the Godhead was Trinitarian.

 

Baptism of the Dead?  Nope.

 

Temple Coveneants?  Nope. (the BoM temples are nothing like LDS build today...they didn't have masonic rites to base it on like JS did) 

 

Word of Wisdom? Nope 

 

Polygamy?  Nope 

 

Killing because God told you to? (aka lying for the Lord) Unfortunately (the ends justifies the means  )

 

Skin color determines righteousness? Unfortunately 

 

Rip one of those pages out and show me a theological piece of the puzzle that was missing.  

 

 

 

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Another amazing faith-promoting essay!  The BOM must be true because it only took them 2,000 words and 34 footnotes to say it.

 

Footnote 19 is my favorite, which states, in relevant part, "Joseph did not hide his well-known early involvement in treasure seeking.  In 1838, he published responses to questions frequently asked of him. 'Was not Jo Smith a money digger,' one question read.  'Yes," Joseph answered, "but it was never a very profitable job to him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.'  According to Martin Harris, an angel commanded Joseph Smith to stop these activities." 

 

So should the For the Strength of Youth pamphet encourage "treasure seeking"?  Joseph Smith learned to con people with a stone and later discovered that he could con people with religion much easier.  The BOM was a multi-source plagerized fictional account of a non-existent people--nothing more.  DNA evidence, archeology, geography, and every other science tell us loud and clear that the BOM is fictional.  The arguments to the contrary used by apologists are the same offered to prove the existence of UFOs or Bigfoot.  Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham, was wrong about the Kinderhook Plates and the Greek Psalter, and used his position to get tail.

 

I grew up in the church in Salt Lake, served a mission, married in temple, etc., and the first time I heard mention of the seer stone in the hat was from "Rough Stone Rolling."  For some reason, no one mentioned that at the MTC...

 

#totalbullshit 

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Lloyd Dobler:

One of the interesting things about all of these essays is how the church tries to still preserve the miracle of the restoration while at the same time having to disclose facts that show the restoration as anything but miraculous.

 

 

Bingo. It's...

 

 

 

 

 

 
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These essays are so poor and barely scratch the surface of the issues.  For example:

 

the article states that a spectacle "urim & thummim" was used to translate the BOM as well as a common stone discovered in the ground. First the essay mentions how special the spectacle version of the urim & Thummim was:

 

“kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”

 

Then the essay introduces the 'seer stone':

 

"The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.” As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure. As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture."

 

But the Church does not bring up an obvious natural question this would bring up:

Why would a common stone "discovered in the ground" have the same prophetic seering abilities as the spectacle urim & thummim which was "“kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages”?

 

To get a more complete view on the BOM translation process and the many problems not discussed in the LDS article, read MormonThink's section on Book of Mormon Translation.

 
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The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.19 As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture.20

 

I can just see this quote in a documentary, which then shows a Joseph Smith actor using this same oval seer stone to scam a group of rowdy treasure hunters late at night.  When the treasure keeps slipping away underground, the group--led by Joe Smith--goes into town and buys or takes a black dog named Trey--and brings the dog to the treasure hunting site.  The dog is tied with a rope, Joe Smith slits the poor dog's throat but leaves it alive enough so that he can lead it around in a circle and allow it to bleed out on the ground until the dog collapses--having bled to death.  

 

Then the perhaps drunk men greedily dig within the circle of blood for the treasure, which lying Joe promised them.  Finally exhausted, cursing and laughing the group of men devoid of honor or dignity make their way back into town.

 

I took a little poetic license on some details--I don't know if the men were drunk but I have read that the Smith men liked their whiskey. Most of the story is true and documented by Joseph Smith's neighbors.  JS conducted money digging in this manner with the SAME STONE that he would later translate the Book of Mormon with. The sacrifice of animals was done in his money digging on a routine basis.  There was a black dog named "Trey" that was sacrificed but sometimes he used black sheep.  He would slit their throats and allow them to bled out in a circle and then dig.  

 

I believe this information comes from Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" or from Richard Abanes' "One Nation Under God's" or from both.  I would have to look it up but I will never forget the account when I read it.  What a sick god this would be!  

 

Too bad TBMs don't have the rest of the story but I do believe the media will soon see to it that they will.

 

 

 

 

 

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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH

 
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Lloyd Dobler:

One of the interesting things about all of these essays is how the church tries to still preserve the miracle of the restoration while at the same time having to disclose facts that show the restoration as anything but miraculous.

 

One thing that hit me early on in my study of the truth about the church was just how ordinary the church is..........I mean every single aspect of the restoration, when looked at with all the available facts, is just dudes making crap up as they go, copying stuff, lying about stuff, trying to get chicks, get power and get money.

 

The church wants to somehow tell us more facts about Santa but still make us believe that he gets around and delivers the presents to everybody anyway.

 

If members read this and then go to mormonthink, they are still going to be pissed and feel lied to.  I don't think any of the essays so far released would help a member feel that they were not lied to AFTER reading the essay and then AFTER doing further research.  If anything, the member will only more clearly see how the church is obfuscating the truth.

 

I am pretty much not a fan of the church. 

 

Lloyd, I felt exactly the same way. I remember reading Fawn Brodie's biography of Joseph Smith and thinking, damn, this all seems so obvious. He's just like Bernie Madoff or any other schemer, only perhaps more narcissistic. I mean, if you look at the chronology of events in the church (rather than a topical history, like you learn in church), as Brodie and others do, it becomes even more obvious. Got caught committing adultery? Come up with a revelation about polygamy. Need money from Martin Harris? Come up with a revelation telling him to give all his worldly goods for the translation of the BOM. Meet a traveling salesmen of random Egyptian crap? Claim you've bought Abrahams's scroll and spend months pretending to translate it. Start to develop a following? Create an army, make yourself general, secretly crown yourself king, and establish a theocracy on the frontier! 

 
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If you just change the facts ever so slightly and tell a TBM that this is how scientology got their revelation and auditing, they'd laugh their as* off and tell you how foolish those scientologists are.   Yet some guy picking up an oval rock to search for.treasure and later saying he used it and some other magic rocks.to translated plates no one else saw (but a current church depicts others as seeing anyway), is totally reasonable...pray to know it's true...I feel horrible sometimes that I gave those missionary discussions to anyone...they were so.full of lies. That I memorized and still have stuck in my memory the made up BS first vision story galls me.

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Wow, give it a few months and the morg will have all the stuff that proves it a sham scattered about in a few pages on their website. It is getting to the point that I am tempted to start having TBM's read these. The church is doing a bang up job of debunking themselves. I had to search things out and now people can just go to lds.org
 
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"as far as translated correctly" may apply here just as with the Bible?

 

"Rocks in the head"?

 

"Hit on the head with a rock"?

 

Maybe these 'translations' are more accurate in explaining how Joe came up with his story?

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Improvement Era, October, 1939
http://archive.org/stream/improvementera4210unse#page/n57/mode/2up

"A neighbor, Willard Chase, asserted Joseph stole a "singularly appearing stone" which he had found in 1822 when Joseph and his brother Alvin were employed by him in digging a well. "Joseph put it into his hat and then his face into the top of his hat ... alleging that he could see in it." - Mormonism Unveiled, Eber D. Howe, 1834."

"This is an attempt to explain the alleged power of Joseph Smith to translate the plates by a person who denounced him as a fraud and an ignorant deceiver."

"In the opinion of the writer, the Prophet used no seer stone in translating the Book of Mormon, neither did he translate in the manner described by David Whitmer and Martin Harris. The statements of both of these men are to be explained by the eagerness of old age to call upon a fading and uncertain memory for the details of events which still remained real and objective to them."
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The church tries to band-aid, only to finally admit...yes, Joseph Smith was a pagan-user of all manner of "witchy" stuff to do his "revelations." And if that isn't enough, any temple go-er will see the rituals of sun worship, (including Stonehenge-like veil doorways in the SL Temple) all through it. Joseph picked up all the local secrets and incorporated them (or stole them, if you prefer.)
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As I read this essay, I thought to myself that it was designed to ease the TBM into the shock of finding out the BOM was translated with the "rock in the hat" method.

 

Then there's this bit: Of his experience as scribe, Cowdery wrote, “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven.”

 

Note how the italicize the word inspiration. Why did they need to do this? Perhaps to fend off the obvious cog-dis when TBMs realize that the gold plates were not even used in the translation process. It was all inspiration. No gold plates required!

 

These essays are so spin-doctored, so tailored to the TBM minds, I think the authors and the approving board (probably the big 15) are losing sight of what they are actually doing. They are proving the anti-mormons right. It won't work on all TBMs, but I guarantee there are a few TBMs who are going to read these articles and take stock at the end of them. "Holy shit, the church has hidden all this stuff for years, and now they think they can just write a couple of essays and it's all good? Good lord, my brother-in-law's cousin's husband was right all along! It's all a crock of shit!" 

 

Go LDS Inc! You're shooting yourself in the foot, and it looks good on you! 

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Matter Unorganized:

As I read this essay, I thought to myself that it was designed to ease the TBM into the shock of finding out the BOM was translated with the "rock in the hat" method.

 

Then there's this bit: Of his experience as scribe, Cowdery wrote, “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven.”

 

Note how the italicize the word inspiration. Why did they need to do this? Perhaps to fend off the obvious cog-dis when TBMs realize that the gold plates were not even used in the translation process. It was all inspiration. No gold plates required!

 

These essays are so spin-doctored, so tailored to the TBM minds, I think the authors and the approving board (probably the big 15) are losing sight of what they are actually doing. They are proving the anti-mormons right. It won't work on all TBMs, but I guarantee there are a few TBMs who are going to read these articles and take stock at the end of them. "Holy shit, the church has hidden all this stuff for years, and now they think they can just write a couple of essays and it's all good? Good lord, my brother-in-law's cousin's husband was right all along! It's all a crock of shit!" 

 

Go LDS Inc! You're shooting yourself in the foot, and it looks good on you! 

 

 Exactly!  That is exactly what they are doing--easing them into becoming as accepting as the FLDS.  For some it will work, for some it will not.  As I mentioned before, I will be telling my family in my exit letter--which I have already started--that I hope they like being red because LDS, Inc plans to turn them into lobsters and slowly cook them so they don't feel a thing.

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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
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Ok President Monson, where are all our "seer stones" if they're so easy to find and use for JS....we should all have a bunch.
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Tessa:
Ok President Monson, where are all our "seer stones" if they're so easy to find and use for JS....we should all have a bunch.

 

I have a couple.

 
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Thanks for the FYI, Lloyd D. However, the Mormon Church is once again undermining its 'true' foundation by acknowledging (finally!) that JS used "a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure"  and "for the higher purpose of translating scripture."  

 

How? The 'true' BoM states that the "interpreters" ("seer stones") were "prepared that the word of God might be fulfilled" (Alma 37:24), and "Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men" (Mosiah 8:19). In fact, there are six BoM verses about the supposedly crucial stone "interpreters." 

As well, in early 1838 JS wrote the following about the all-important BoM "interpreters":

"Also, that there were two stones in silver bows — and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim — deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted 'seers' in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book."

 

But from what the LDS Church is now saying on its main website about JS and his "small oval stone" being used "for the higher purpose of translating scripture", a rock that he found "in the ground" in upstate New York sufficed for 'translation' purposes. 

 

In other words, the supposedly vital "interpreters" from "ancient or former times" weren't needed! LDS apostle Russell Nelson effectively told new mission presidents as much in June 1992 when he said:

 

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”

 

However, since "the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man" (supposedly), why have "literally thousands of corrections...been made in the book", according to the Ensign in Dec. 1983?

 

It would seem that JS' "seer stone" repeatedly malfunctioned. But "prophet, seer, and revelator" Nelson described JS' face-and-stone-in-hat 'translation' technique as "miraculous"! 

 

LOL!!

 

 

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As a teenager in the late 1980s and early 1990s, I remember hearing warings from church leaders and seminary teachers against engaging in occult practices, such as the ouija board and so forth.  And yet, here Joseph Smith is using those very practices!

 

So, the church really can't tell the youth to stay away from them.  (Of course, if you're setting up Joseph Smith as an example, you can't tell the youth to not have sex with people they're not married to, either.)

 

 

 
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CdnXMo:

 

However, since "the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man" (supposedly), why have "literally thousands of corrections...been made in the book", according to the Ensign in Dec. 1983?

 

It would seem that JS' "seer stone" repeatedly malfunctioned. But "prophet, seer, and revelator" Nelson described JS' face-and-stone-in-hat 'translation' technique as "miraculous"! 

 

LOL!!

 

 

 

 Ahh, I see you missed their subtle exit hatch on this one.  Note that their article includes the following:

 

"The manuscript that Joseph Smith dictated to Oliver Cowdery and others is known today as the original manuscript, about 28 percent of which still survives.8 This manuscript corroborates Joseph Smith’s statements that the manuscript was written within a short time frame and that it was dictated from another language. For example, it includes errors that suggest the scribe heard words incorrectly rather than misread words copied from another manuscript.9 In addition, some grammatical constructions that are more characteristic of Near Eastern languages than English appear in the original manuscript, suggesting that the base language of the translation was not English.10

Unlike most dictated drafts, the original manuscript was considered by Joseph Smith to be, in substance, a final product. To assist in the publication of the book, Oliver Cowdery made a handwritten copy of the original manuscript. This copy is known today as the printer’s manuscript. Because Joseph Smith did not call for punctuation, such as periods, commas, or question marks as he dictated, such marks are not in the original manuscript. The typesetter later inserted punctuation marks when he prepared the text for the printer.11 With the exceptions of punctuation, formatting, other elements of typesetting, and minor adjustments required to correct copying and scribal errors, the dictation copy became the text of the first printed edition of the book.12"

 

They clearly want to blame the "scribe" or the typesetter any time they want to make subtle corrections/deletions/additions to "correct" the gramatical contruction, etc. to align better with the "revelation" received via the rock in the hat.  

 

Seriously, these guys have been playing this game for 150 years, they're good at it.  They are, however, not very well equiped to deal with crowd sourced analysis of their articles and logic.  They're trying, to some degree to take advantage of broader networks of minds to work their apologetic magic, but the problem with that is that they can't fully trust a network of apologetic followers, or even their own internal larger deparment...the 15 have to maintain control over the narrative and at least have their command structure review everything - and that's their real weakness, they'll never keep up with the South Park's and all of the Postmos of the world - while they might hold on to those they've already snared in their web, some will shake loose and it's going to be harder and harder for them to spin a narrative about a treasure seeking, peep stone looking guy in the 1800s getting direct revelation from God that sounds at all believable.

 

A couple other thing I noted in the article.

 

First, I just love how the church continues to make the "translation" a miracle that just couldn't have been completed by an uneducated bumblef*&k like Joseph in 3 months.  Of course, it continues that by suggesting that he first got the idea of the plates and a book in 1823 (when he was 18), but most of the work was done in 1829, six years later.  Come on - even an uneducated idiot could copy the bible and other works of the day in 6 years to come up with something like the BOM - especially if their day job was "treasure seeker."

 

 Second, it was interesting to see the article point out how pedestrian Joseph's use of a seer stone to seek treasure was, but with no attempt to single him out as the real deal.  "As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.19" Apparently there was a time in the 1800s when every Tom, Dick and Harry could pick up a pretty stone and take advantage of magical power to find things.   Of course, as Joseph learned that there was more money (more than $14 a month) to be had in the big swindle of "translating" (i.e. making up) scripture and starting a church, he grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture"

 

Very convenient 

 

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/db/db451cc550126738b8f31033ede9591fbfe31aaf7c45c9a5775c40e0e871d554.jpg 

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“Nell,” the Constable continued, indicating through his tone of voice that the lesson was concluding, “the difference between ignorant and educated people is that the latter know more facts. But that has nothing to do with whether they are stupid or intelligent. The difference between stupid and intelligent people—and this is true whether or not they are well-educated—is that intelligent people can handle subtlety. They are not baffled by ambiguous or even contradictory situations—in fact, they expect them and are apt to become suspicious when things seem overly straightforward.”

From “The Diamond Age” - Neal Stevenson

 
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I bet these essays help some doubting Mormons stay in the faith a little longer.  I bet the essays bump others toward the exit.  I wish the essays weren't so carefully worded to take away the obvious implications of the history being admitted, but I am glad that the LDS church is finally admitting some of the truth of its history.  Probably what I like best is that thought that my kids--all now adults and all LDS--can go to the official LDS church site and see, "Wow, Dad was right all along."  My conclusions were obviously different from those of the essays, but the core facts are on my side.  I hope my kids someday see that.

 

It's important to me.  I want to be vindicated.  I want to not be blamed by my loved ones.

 

I'd also like it if the LDS church were far more open than this.  Go ahead and tell the truth, the entire truth.  If the entire truth for some LDS GA or historian includes, "and yet I still believe the church is true," well then include that part, too.

 
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I find these essays fascinating, and am enjoying watching the "evolution" of Mormonism right before our eyes.

 

What I believe is that these will prove very effective for the church.  They will do nothing to reel the likes of you and me back into the fold (we've known about this crap for years...that's why we're freakin' Postmormons!), but they will innoculate the younger, internet-savvy generation by providing answers in a non-appologetic way.  You'll notice that the tone of these essays is very straightforward, as if to say, "Of COURSE we know this!" but they never compare what they used to teach us to what they're saying now...

 

...which would be rather illuminating.

 

Because without that comparison, people who haven't already come to terms with this sort of information will actually QUESTION THEMSELVES rather than question the church or its leaders. "Why didn't I know this?  I guess I misunderstood in Primary...huh..."   And before you know it, young people will never remember a day when Mormons believed anything other than what these essays talk about.

 

Exhibit A:  The change to the temple ceremonies.  Those of us who went to the temple 20 years ago remember the throat/belly slashing rituals, and the condemnation of protestant ministers.  But ask any young person going to the temple today about those things, and they won't question the temple...they'll question YOU.  They don't believe it was ever any other way.

 

And the same thing will be true regarding every issue the chuch undertakes in these essays.  (More are coming, by the way...)

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Doing stupid things faster and with more energy since 1962.

 
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Celestial Wedgie:

I bet these essays help some doubting Mormons stay in the faith a little longer.  I bet the essays bump others toward the exit.  I wish the essays weren't so carefully worded to take away the obvious implications of the history being admitted, but I am glad that the LDS church is finally admitting some of the truth of its history.  Probably what I like best is that thought that my kids--all now adults and all LDS--can go to the official LDS church site and see, "Wow, Dad was right all along."  My conclusions were obviously different from those of the essays, but the core facts are on my side.  I hope my kids someday see that.

 

It's important to me.  I want to be vindicated.  I want to not be blamed by my loved ones.

 

I'd also like it if the LDS church were far more open than this.  Go ahead and tell the truth, the entire truth.  If the entire truth for some LDS GA or historian includes, "and yet I still believe the church is true," well then include that part, too.

 

Hence the inspired revelation to the holy pack of 15 penguins to construct a revenue stream to continue their lifestyle in the form of the Holy Mall with a creek running through it.

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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.

 
       
 


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