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I’m an active mormon. Is it OK for me to be here?
 
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Hi all...

 

I am an active member of the church.  When I saw news of your new billboard, I was curious as to who you were.  For the last couple of days, I have been reading you posts, comments, etc.  I have to say that I am excited to finally meet people who have left the church and are still friendly.  At least, I hope you are friendly.  You see I'm a little nervous here and I don't want to intrude if I am not wanted.  Most ex-members I have met are mean "anti-mormons", and it was always hard to have a descent conversation.  I have lots of questions and would love to get your thoughts.  Mostly though, I would just love to try and understand your guy's feelings and all.  That last sentence may seem a little weird, but oh well.

 

I don't really know why I am so attracted to the idea of this website, but I hope it will be what I think it is.

 

Let me tell you my story as way of introduction.  I grew up in a military family, so we moved around a lot.  I've spent half my life in the eastern states and the other half in Europe and the Middle East, including 2 years in a boarding school.  I am also from a part-member family.  My mother, who was born in the church, but did not become active till I was born (I am the oldest), practically carried my family through the church as my siblings and I grew up.  My father was baptised when I was tenish, but still has not fully committed to the church.  He is a fighter pilot, and he does love his bar.  In any case, he holds the Aaronic priesthood and attends church from time to time.  I did a lot of dumb things growing up, somethings typical of youth, and somethings not so typical in which I am grateful that I am still here.  I went on a mission...at 20, a little older than average,...and that helped set me straight, if not spiritually, at least practically.  I married a girl a year after my mission, but we divorced within two years and thankfully no kids.  I should also mention that I moved to Utah right before I got married...talk about a culture shock.  If you guys have never left Utah, you have no idea.  I now live in Logan with my second wife, which I should add is going very well.  We will soon be having our first...she will be my first daughter.  I have gotten a little used to the Utah culture now that I have been here for six years or so, but I really love how beautiful it is here, especially in Logan.  (I've never been around mountains and have discovered that I am an able snowboarder...though I do miss my gulf coast.)  Anyways, as I ramble, I am a typical student trying to finish his masters, stressed about his future career, and so on. 

 

Let me get back to why I am writing this post.  I suppose the main drive for my interest in getting to know those here is my soon-to-be-coming daughter.  Perhaps I'm different, or perhaps I'm not, but I think about all of the choices that she will make in life, and I wonder how I am going to stay sane.  And I think about everything that she could possible do.  Of course, one of those things, is not be an active member of the church.  The gospel is important to me in my life and for that of my family, and I have every intention of teaching her about the gospel as best I can.  But I feel I need to be prepared for when she will make decisions that are going to send me straight to worrytown.  I mean, I understand how hard it can be to follow all of the commandments, rules, whatever you want to call them.  Personally I don't see how anyone can stay straight in this world as they grow up.  It's just hard.  But I need to know that she will still be my girl, that I will still love her the way she needs to be loved, if and when she makes decisions that I don't agree with.  Even if she leaves the church, for whatever reason, I need to know that I will be there for her.  I guess that is why I am here; to try and understand your feelings (there's that word again), so that I will understand hers. 

   Incidently, half my siblings are not active in the church.  Maybe I can work to understanding them as well.  Relationship with siblings can be tricky and we are not always nice to each other. 

   I don't care why you have left the church, though I am interested in your stories.  I don't care what you do.  I have read many of your posts.  Somethings I have read made me feel sorry for what some have been through, especially when involved with things like pedifillia (sp?).  Some of the things you say make me laugh, because I think of certain people that you describe well that just make me shake my head.  Maybe I should find a web group of active members that just don't understand why some people in the church act the way they do:)  Just so you know, I have no intentions of leaving the church, and I do not want to argue with anyone...I am not a "troll", (I saw someone say).  I just want to be involved in your discussions and thoughts.  I hope that you can help me with my questions and be more understanding.  And maybe, if your interested, I can help some of you see that many of us mormons are not so retarded and that we are not so different from the rest of the world.  We just are not in the spot light all that often. 

 

Anyway, thanks for letting me be here.  Personally, whichever one of you started this whole thing...I think it is a great idea.  Everybody needs to know that they are OK regardless of the choices that they make in life.

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Welcome! Everyone is welcome here as long as they play within the rules. Click on the link about called Posting Policy (right under the Home link) and you'll see what those rules are. I'm glad you're here. It should stimulate more good conversation!

 

 

 

 

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I think if it is okay for me to be here, a never been or will be mormon, then I'm sure it is okay for you to be here.  And, what's different about me is that I'm a Christian, raised in a very liberal Christian church and it is pretty clear I'm somewhat of a "different creature" to most here.  I've taken some people by suprise, but they've accepted me.  You have a very excellent outlook and seem to have a healthy sense of reality about raising your new little daughter.  I can't speak for everyone here, but I think all sorts of people here are well received as long as discussions are open and no one tries to convince other people to accept their beliefs.  I bet you'll find friends here. Welcome.

 
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A BIG PostMo welcome, Wiley.

 

Judging by your respectful, honest, vulnerable opening post, I would be confident you will enjoy your time here.

 

The legacy we leave our children is a huge priority for all loving parents, so many here can relate to your concern as you await the arrival of your daughter.

 

Daryl (I'm the token Australian here, one of those scattered around the globe who are regulars here) 

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Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt

and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl

 
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Wiley,

 

I want to thank you for being honest about where you are coming from. I fear some who have visited haven't been and have only come to drum up trouble.

 

If it's conversation you want, you've come to the right place. From your reading, I'm sure you know that we are very open about our experience within the Church. Discussion on any LDS Church topic is not an issue.

 

Also, I think that many of us may lose our sense of what it is like to be active in the church. You may be able to provide valuable insights into that world which has become alien to many of us.

 

As Peter_Mary might say, "pull up a chair". I'm glad you're here. 

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ah ha... now I've got your attention Next Oracle, tell me about your Avatar.  Is that you?  Are you all dressed up for a reason?  do tell.
 
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Welcome Wiley!

 

Many of us here live outside of Utah. I for one have lived about as much time out of Utah as I have in Utah, in Logan to boot, so I know what you mean about the culture shock. I was also raised in a military family and my daughter just had her first birthday a couple months ago. Man, you're in for a treat! Having your first child is an awesome experience, and can play wonders on your outlook on life...in a good way.

 

Keep in touch. We're a good crowd here, for the most part. Just like anywhere else though, you will see the occasional negative post post up. However, just as we try not to judge all mormons by the actions of the few who've treated us negatively, I ask you to do the same, if such a thing should ever happen here (after all, most of us here still have LDS family members that we love and cherish).

 

Again, welcome. Good luck with your studies, your boardin' (man, I miss the Utah snow!), and your expected arrival!

 

Nate 

 
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Wow Wiley.  That was an interesting post.  I'm glad you're here and interested in joining us and, I believe, you will be made to feel very welcome here as long as your agenda doesn't include a desire to "bring people back to the fold" and your intent is to try to understand different perspectives and maybe learn a little more about yourself along the way.  You seem sincere and I think you'll find that people here are very kind as long as you don't preach (if that happens, people tend to get pretty grumpy).

 

Pnut is right, she is in a small minority as a "never been mormon" liberal christian.  However she is very well-liked, respected, and provides great material for discussion. 

 

Congratulations on your "soon to arrive" little girl.  That is sooooo exciting!!!!  Judging by your post, I think your little girl is going to be very lucky.  You have an idea of how you want life to go for her, but you seem to sincerely want to support her no matter what.  I think that's pretty cool.

 

I was raised a very active Mormon, married in the temple, had six kids, relief society president.....you know....the whole Mormon thing.  I left the church last year at the age of 41 after not being able to resolve the conflict in my own mind.  I simply didn't believe....that's all.  My husband is still active and my children are in various stages of religious transition.  As you might imagine, we have different ideas of how the kids should be raised.  I have a daughter that will be turning 8 this year and a son that will be turning 19 before too long.  The issues of baptism and mission are really big right now.  I feel it's soooooo important for my kids to have a choice.  Sometimes I feel I did not have a real "choice" when I got baptized.  It was either get baptized or be a bad person.  And, when pressed, my husband agrees.

 

So, we have decided to wait awhile to have my eight-year-old baptized.  In addition, we would prefer that our son wait to go on a mission and not jump right in at the standard age of 19, when the pressure is the greatest.  If he feels strongly about it a little later when the social pressure has let up a bit, I'll be more than happy to support him. 

 

You've got awhile before you'll be facing these kind of decisions with your daughter, but all along the way, I think you can plant the idea in your daughter that you think she is a good person NO MATTER WHAT.  I think you're already on your way there.  You're going to LOVE being a dad!  Good Luck!!!

 

Jane 

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Wiley,

 

Truth be told, it is my personal wish to build bridges with interested members of the church who, while strong in their own faith, are respectful of mine.  The distrust flows both ways, and anything this community can do make peace with the LDS community is a long-term benefit to everyone.  I think you'll find that one of he primary reasons many of us quit was because we didn't line up with the standard thinking, and couldn't find anyone to talk to.  I suspect there are many who come here who could have had their needs met at church had they only found folks who approached them as you approached us.

 

So not only is it "OK for you to be here," but you are welcome.  Don't worry...we're not here to convert you, and trust that you are not here as a member-missionary, either!  Feel free to ask whatever questions you want, but be prepared for challenging answers.  But don't worry about believing differently...we only run into trouble 'round these parts when people minimize the way others believe.  You don't strike me as that kinda guy...

 

I can appreciate your concerns, too, about becoming a papa here in the near term.  Done that four times myself, and have raised them and will be fledging three of 'em this summer (long story).  I KNOW the angst you feel as you worry about whether or not you'll "do it right."  Trust me...you won't.  And it'll be okay.  Never met a parent who knew what they were doing the first time or two around, and don't expect I ever will. 

 

But raising children is a beautiful thing, despite it's challenges (and they are legion).  You'll learn what you're really made of, and chances are, you'll learn you're not so bad after all.  Your daughter just needs you in her life.  From day one, and forever after.  As long as she knows--because she sees and hears it every day--that your committment and love for her are unconditional, then despite whatever bumps and bobbles there are along the way, at the end of the day, she'll likely end up right about where you hoped she would.  It's work...and it's worth it.

 

You are thinking about these things, and worrying about these things already.  I have a sneaking suspicion that you feel pretty bonded to that little girl aready...I would only predict good things for you as a new dad!

 

Welcome to Postmo!

 

 

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pnut:ah ha... now I've got your attention Next Oracle, tell me about your Avatar.  Is that you?  Are you all dressed up for a reason?  do tell.

 

Hey pnut! Yes, that gruesome image is me. I'm thinking I snapped this while I was dressed for either an interview (job) or one of my last times attending church. I cant exactly remember. I was probably fishing for a good MySpace/Facebook pic! I liked the coloring of the picture, shadows and such.

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Speaking of avatars, Nate is that you and your little girl?  Oh my word, she is cute!!!!!!!!
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Welcome Wiley

 

 

If you are true to your post then you are a gentleman with a capital G. I look forward to getting to know you. 

 

 

ft 

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It is one’s willingness to become uncomfortable and face the fear that what we might uncover could rock the foundations of our world that will allow us to escape the bonds of Mormonism.

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I looked up Oracle and found this definition: 

A person considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinions.

 

When I saw your photo all dressed up looking like you're ready to head off to church, and saw the name "next oracle", I chuckled, thinking you were trying to make claim you were going to be the next prophet. 

 

 

 
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jamech:Speaking of avatars, Nate is that you and your little girl?  Oh my word, she is cute!!!!!!!!

 

Yep, that's us! Thanks, she's a sweetie too. Check this out!

Nate 

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wiley: Hi all...    I don't care why you have left the church, though I am interested in your stories.  I don't care what you do. 
 Big welcome wiley, Sounds like with your travels and family you are an open-minded Mormon and a soon to be caring father, congratulations! If you have not already checked out the following link on the site you might try the following to help give you some additional insight. However our stories often mention why we have left the church. 

See: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Personal_Accounts_of_Leaving_Mormonism/ 

Something you might consider would be to become familiar with the issues facing the church so you will be able to address these with your children before they find out like we have and it will not be such a shock for them. My wife is still an active temple recommend holding member and addresses these issues by recognizing there are problems but chooses to embrace what she feels are the good aspects of Mormonism.

Feel welcome to ask any questions we don’t bite except for our pet Dogzilla and then there is Grape Nephi he swings a pretty mean sword. They are the only two I’d worry about, but once you get to know them I’d bet you would want to adopt them. 

All the best- SoUtSkeptic

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For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” - John 3:20, KJV


The Bright Light of Skeptical Scrutiny is the best disinfectant.


Each of us is a prisoner if we live in a world without wonder and curiosity, and we must be willing to explore the world of ideas if we want to be free. Marietta McCarty explaining the meaning of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.

 
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nate:

jamech:Speaking of avatars, Nate is that you and your little girl?  Oh my word, she is cute!!!!!!!!

 

Yep, that's us! Thanks, she's a sweetie too. Check this out!

Nate 

Nate!  She's darling!  But isn't it time to gauge her ears?  And I'm picturing her with a soul patch...daddy-daughter thing! 

 

Seriously...she's absolutely beautiful!  Thanks for letting us have a peek!

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pnut:

I looked up Oracle and found this definition: 

A person considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinions.

 

When I saw your photo all dressed up looking like you're ready to head off to church, and saw the name "next oracle", I chuckled, thinking you were trying to make claim you were going to be the next prophet.  

 

Ah yes, I can see how that could be taken. I actually chose my screen name while on my mission. This is the name I use for everything. Google me, I'm easy to find. The name is a number of things. Being a lover of technology, and after having read biographies of Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison, "nxtOracle" sort of took hold. Ellison is founder and CEO of Oracle, the leading database software developer, and Jobs founded NeXT after he was ousted from Apple. It was on a NeXT computer, the NeXT Cube, that the first graphical browser, and thus the world wide web (in fact it's was called World Wide Web 1.0) was created. 

 

Beyond technology, the name does bring to mind the mystery of prophecy and religion. While I do believe that God can work through me (as with anyone) for the benefit of others, I don't set myself up as a prophet. Sometimes I give wise counsel, but that's mostly luck.

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I was also thinking it might have something to do with Oracle and the computer thing.  the pressure is off then to wear only my Sunday best when posting here! 

 

 
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pnut:

I was also thinking it might have something to do with Oracle and the computer thing.  the pressure is off then to wear only my Sunday best when posting here! 

 

 

No worries. Even if I were the next prophet; shorts, sandals, and T-Shirts would be the dress code. 

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wiley:

I hope that you can help me with my questions and be more understanding.  And maybe, if your interested, I can help some of you see that many of us mormons are not so retarded and that we are not so different from the rest of the world.  We just are not in the spot light all that often. 

 

Anyway, thanks for letting me be here.  Personally, whichever one of you started this whole thing...I think it is a great idea.  Everybody needs to know that they are OK regardless of the choices that they make in life.

 

Welcome Wiley!  You sound like someone who would fit in well here.  I admire your courage to come here and be willing to openly explore why we chose to leave the church.  As a father with daughters myself I can appreciate the trepidations you are feelings about the world in which she will be growing up.

 

You mentioned that many of your siblings are not active.  Have you ever sincerely talked with them about why?  Is it really just so they don't have to follow the commandments?  Or are there doctrines that they cannot accept?  I suspect that it is more than just a desire to sin that is keeping them away.

 

If you read the exit stories you will see a lot of reasons why people decided to leave.  Some, as you mentioned because of horrible things that happened to them by church leaders, but I think most of us left because we realized that the church is not what it presents itself to be.  The official story presented by the leaders of the church does not match up with the actual history.  The Book of Mormon doesn't match up against scientific research.  And there are some of us who simply realized that the Mormon church does not have a lock on spiritual truth.

 

Your concern for your daughter is admirable but have you looked at how the church views women?  Your daughter place is in the home.  She will be encouraged to marry young and start a family.  This could prevent her from gaining an education.  She may marry before really knowing who she is or what she wants in a mate.  If she fails to get an education and then ends up divorced will she be able to provide for your grandchildren?  Also, just because she is a member does not mean she will not get involved in premarital sex, alcohol or drugs.

 

Another concern you should consider is how will feel when she reads her church history and learns that the founder of her religion used his authority as a prophet of god to coerce girls as young as 14 to marry him.  How will she feel when she learns that he secretely married the wives of some of his closest friends.  How will she feel about the fact that her husband if he wished could be sealed to other women after she is dead or in the next life?  What will she think of the prospect of an eternity filled with continual childbirth of billions of spirit babies?  What will she infer about the importance of women from a book of scripture that barely even mentions women?  How will you feel knowing that when she becomes a teenager some strange man will be quizzing her about her moral purity and probing for details about her sexual behavior?

 

How will she feel when her religion tells her that the earth is 6000 years old and evolution is a lie when all of her school teachers have taught her otherwise and provided her with convincing evidence to make their case?  How will she feel around people of color when her scriptures teach her that dark skin is a curse for wickedness?  What friendships will she miss out on because she is taught that she should associate with members who share her values?  How will she or you feel when her grandfather and many of her aunts and uncles cannot attend her wedding simply because they are not members of the church and do not hold a temple recommend?

 

I could go on but that is enough for now.  I hope you stick around and truly engage in a dialogue to better understand our perspective.  I think it is great that you are willing to try and understand our perspective. 

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Wiley,

Welcome, and thank you for your post.  Around here your views will be respected, especially if you show that you consider all information..   Those who plug their ears and chant when being presented with disturbing information are not all that well respected.  No one here will state categorically that he is absolutely certain that their present position is correct.  We are all still gathering information and knowledge, and are open to new information that we may have overlooked.  It is not our mission to persuade anyone to change his way of thinking.  If, however, you are feeling conflict, ( and personally, I can not understand how one wouldn't) the experiences of the members here may help you to understand the sources of these conflicts, and to validate your own thoughts. This forum has been very helpful to me in shedding the last remaining fears with which I was aflicted over the many years of my church membership.

  And at the end of the day if you totally disagree with the predominant views here your opinions will be respected.

Len

 
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nxtoracle:

Discussion on any topic is not an issue.

 

Minor correction. If I remember the rules that were added a while ago, talking about illegal activities or anything that might potentially be illegal or mistaken as illegal is not okay. (And I'm not talking about personal stories/experiences with abuse, I'm talking about alternate spiritual paths that may include substances).

 

Jeff, I know the above sounds a tad bitter. . . but that is because I am still a touch frustrated with that decision. However, I intend to continue abiding by it. 

 
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bryaninks:
nxtoracle:

Discussion on any topic is not an issue.

 

Minor correction. If I remember the rules that were added a while ago, talking about illegal activities or anything that might potentially be illegal or mistaken as illegal is not okay. (And I'm not talking about personal stories/experiences with abuse, I'm talking about alternate spiritual paths that may include substances).

 

Jeff, I know the above sounds a tad bitter. . . but that is because I am still a touch frustrated with that decision. However, I intend to continue abiding by it. 

 

Thank you. Please strike that from the record and place "LDS Church" after the "any".

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Thanks everyone for being kind.  I have to admit that I was nervous, but I feel better now.  I also have to admit that every time someone posted something, I got a notice with my gmail.  (I highly recommend gmail for all.)  So every time I got the notice, I rushed excitedly to the website to check out your comments.  I should also mention that I have never done this online chat, forum, blog thing; all sorts of new things this week.  But again, thanks everyone for being so welcome.  You even calmed by wife’s slight fears that I was going to be talking to some overanxious people trying to “lead me astray”.  But all is good.

 

I promise to obey the Posting Policy rules and be nice and respectful to all here. (You can envision me raising my right hand if you want.)

 

Interesting to see you here Pnut, the “different creature”.  I didn’t expect that one….cool.

  

 Man, you're in for a treat! Having your first child is an awesome experience, and can play wonders on your outlook on life...in a good way.

 

 

Nate, beautiful daughter.  People are often so surprised when they find out that “I am more excited for my new baby than my wife”…her words…I guess I was surprised too at how excited I was when I found out she was pregnant.  It was neither expected nor planned.  But here I am eagerly awaiting, and extremely nervous.

  

Jamech, thank you for your thoughts and encouragements.  Good luck with the choices your family is making.  I hope they go smoothly.  I can certainly understand the differences in opinion on how children should be raised as I saw my parents contend often.  Even though my dad did join the church, he still has his opinions.  It all worked out as we are still a good family, a bit quirky, but good.  But I think the thing I appreciated the most, as the child in that situation, was that my parents ultimately always supported the choices their children made concerning the church.  I know my mom would prefer some of my siblings to be stronger in the church, and likewise, my dad didn’t say much in the way of encouragement when I choose to go on a mission, but they let us make our choices. 

 

I read a number of the stories.  They are long…and each different and interesting.  I look forward to reading more.  I’ve come across some of the history things that have been mentioned in the various posts I’ve read.  Many of them are new and unexpected.  It will take me some time to work through them.  At least none of them are the typical odd myths that I have repeatedly run into (sex in the temple and that sort of thing.)  It’s refreshing on some level. 

 

Your concern for your daughter is admirable but have you looked at how the church views women?  Your daughter place is in the home.  She will be encouraged to marry young and start a family.  This could prevent her from gaining an education.  She may marry before really knowing who she is or what she wants in a mate.  If she fails to get an education and then ends up divorced will she be able to provide for your grandchildren? 

 

 

This is another topic that I have seen repeated in these forums.  I have to say I’m a little perplexed here.  I can honestly say that other than a few old farmer/rancher head of the household types, I have never seen this disrespect towards women from the church.  No offense to those in the livestock industry.  It’s a tough job.  And anyway, they seem to be more affected by John Wayne movies than anything else.  What movie was it where the movie left off as he was spanking some girl into “proper” submission?  The only one I really watched…no offense to John Wayne fansJ. 

  

Also, just because she is a member does not mean she will not get involved in premarital sex, alcohol or drugs.

 

Yeah, don’t I know it!

 

Another concern you should consider is how will feel when she reads her church history and learns that the founder of her religion used his authority as a prophet of god to coerce girls as young as 14 to marry him.  How will she feel when she learns that he secretely married the wives of some of his closest friends.  How will she feel about the fact that her husband if he wished could be sealed to other women after she is dead or in the next life?  What will she think of the prospect of an eternity filled with continual childbirth of billions of spirit babies?  What will she infer about the importance of women from a book of scripture that barely even mentions women?  How will you feel knowing that when she becomes a teenager some strange man will be quizzing her about her moral purity and probing for details about her sexual behavior?

Whoa… Yeah…give me some time on this stuff. 

 

By the way…” I hope that you can help me with my questions and help me be more understanding.” Is how that should have read, in case you care.

 In case you couldn't figure it out, I'm trying to do that cool capture-the-quote-some of you know how to do.  We'll see if this works. 

Thanks all.

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Welcome Wiley,

 

Funny thing.......about 5 years ago I was an active LDS church member, true believer, born and raised in the covenant, father was a bishop during my teen years and later became a stake president and then a stake patriarch.  I was married in the temple and pretty much had raised 4 kids nearly to adulthood when one day as I was reading the local paper there was an article about a group of people who called themselves postmormons.  As I read over the article I thought to myself "What?" "Why would anyone leave the church?" I started reading their stories and following links on the internet to other sites with more people who had been LDS all of their lives and then leaving or resigning.  Many issues were mentioned that I was not familiar with.  I won't go into those here but I began to realize that the things I had been taught my entire life growing up in the mormon church didn't exactly happen the way the church likes to present them.  Many problematic issues with the church's foundational claims and many of Joseph Smith's actions that were quite frankly dispicable I had conveniently never heard or read about.  I could have read about them if I had been into studying my own church history but I never did.  I figured it would be in agreement with what we had all been taught out of the Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society manuals.  I found out that I was wrong in assuming that.

 

It was a little scary at first but I was determined to find out the truth or at least as much of the truth that I could no matter where it led me.  I read and read and read for about six months straight.  I purchased a lot of books that I read and read tons more online.  I was like a sponge.  Most of the sources that I read from would not be considered anti-mormon.  Some of the most damaging (by damaging I mean to the church's credibility) books and articles that I did read as far as helping me to come to the decision that Joseph Smith was not honest about his experiences were from the church's own publications or sold at Deseret Book.  I also read quite a few that were not from the church but never did come across anything that I could ever tell by reading FAIR and FARMS rebuttals that was a lie.

 

FAIR I believe (Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research) someone correct me if I'm wrong and FARMS (Foundation for Ancient Research of Mormon Studies) are two of the church's apologetic organizations.  Which brings me to the question, "Why can't the prophet or the apostles just address all of these issues?" After all, I was brought up to believe and trust that the prophet himself spoke directly to God or Jesus on a regular basis. 

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, I found out that people who leave the LDS religion have very good and valid reasons for leaving the faith. After much study and contemplation I realized that I could no longer in good conscience support an organization that had abused not only my trust but that of my family's and millions of others.  The "church" demands honesty from it's members but apparently doesn't think that we deserve the same from "it".  Although there are many good things to be found within the LDS church, those things can be found in other organizations as well.  They do not hold a patent on family values or on trying to be good citizens and neighbors etc.

 

Wiley, you said you wanted to understand why people are here at post-mormon org.  I am here precisely because I am just that..... a post mormon.  I used to be mormon.  I no longer am.  There are a lot of good, decent people here who I can relate to, seek advise from, laugh with, rant with, learn from, and be a friend to as well as receive friendship in return.  It's a good place for me.

 

We all have to find our own way and be true to ourselves.  I wish you the best on your journey and appreciate the invitation to share with you a portion of mine.

 

utater

 

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Welcome Wiley! It's always good to have a faithful Latter-day Saint around. It helps balance out the conversation.

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And big welcome from The Crime Dog as well!

 

I'll let you in on a well-known secret about little girls: They steal Daddy's heart, and they wrap him right around their little fingers. 

 

One day, you're teaching her to walk, and the next day, you're walking her down the aisle, trying to retain your composure as you realize you just became #2, and you have to give her away to the new #1 man in her life.

 

Make the most of every minute!

 

 

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Crime Dog:

And big welcome from The Crime Dog as well!

 

I'll let you in on a well-known secret about little girls: They steal Daddy's heart, and they wrap him right around their little fingers. 

 

One day, you're teaching her to walk, and the next day, you're walking her down the aisle, trying to retain your composure as you realize you just became #2, and you have to give her away to the new #1 man in her life.

 

Make the most of every minute!

 

 

Okay you about made me cry here, you old dog.
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Welcome, Wiley. I admire your attitude. I will not purposely try to offend you but my anger over church issues is still present in me, although greatly diminished from many years of processing my experiences. That anger may come up from time to time. Please realize it is about me and not you if it seems like I'm aiming it you. I know it is about me and is not everyone's experience. I wish you well with your daughter, I predict you will have a good relationship with her all her life. 

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Welcome Wiley.  

 

Anyone is welcome here that is not here to preach about how bad or mistaken we are.

 

If you are here to learn we have a lot to offer. From psychology, to church history to even the history and theology of the early 1st century Christian movement. To see some of that look for my thread on what church Smith restored.

 

I'll warn you. Many of us do not pull any punches. And your testimony will be threatened by some of the things we will have to say.

 

But again, welcome and feel free to ask questions.

 

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https://sites.google.com/site/gwylym/home http://gwylym.blogspot.com

 
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He'll poke you with that sword if you get too far out of line!  Watch your backside!

 

 
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Jannypanny: Okay you about made me cry here, you old dog.

 

Yeah, me too.....but it's all good when they bring you one of these:

 

A GRANDAUGHTER! And yes, I'm wrapped firmly around her little finger, as well that of my other grand-parakeet, who's 6 six years old.

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Hi there Wiley, as you can see, we all left, or are leaving the church.  Mentally I checked out over 20 years ago...  I was having a really hard time with doctrine, temple, and I really had a hard time with the women are homemakers thing.  I know that feelings have lessened on that issue since so many women work outside of the home,  but back then you were supposed to be home.  I always felt, as a woman, looked down upon.  Not by my husband, but by the men in the ward/church.  There was one incident that 'broke the camel's back' as far as my church going went. 

When my youngest son was about 1 or 2, he was fussing during sacrament meeting so I took him out to the foyer, and there were a couple other mom's out there..  Sacrament was over after a while, sunday school was beginning.  One of the other moms and I were having a nice conversation, some adult talk, not kid talk, and I guess we were late for sunday school.  I cannot believe what happened next.  One of the bishops counselors was cruising the rooms looking for stragglers I guess and he said to my friend and I "don't you girls need to go to Sunday School now" or something to that effect.  Made me feel like  I was 10 years old, not a 30 year old wife, mom and woman.  His tone was what made me mad.  So...I got up, gathered my son and his stuff, found my husband and went home.  I though how dare that man tell me what  to do.  And  that was what really started my train of thought.  I had so much guilt for so long as I was not Molly Homemaker.  I managed, but I never felt adequate compared to what I was reading and seeing.

I was a convert to the church, after I became engaged to my husband, I think to appease his family (like it would matter now, wish I had known what they were about then), not really understanding the church.  To do that over again, I would not have joined.  We would have married anyway, he was not much of a member anyway.  Jack Mormon.  That was my first mistake, joining.  Second was doing the temple thing.

 It also bothered me alot that I was being told that I would not see my family in heaven since they were non mo.  My fall from 'grace' was not overnight, it took a few years.

Postnote, just celebrated our 30th anniversary, our two sons are grown, on  their own, good jobs, good sons and men.  They do not have anything to do with the church, maybe someday they will find a religion that works for them.  If not, it doesnt make them bad people.

You do live in a nice area....my husbands sister and husband live in Tremonton.  That is way too small town for me, but  they have been there forever.

Jump in anytime

Barb

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Most ex-members I have met are mean "anti-mormons", and it was always hard to have a descent conversation.
You make such a good point here. There are some days I get a bee in my bonnet and I'm one of those mean-anti-mormons. Usually when I'm feeling particularly hurt by some LDS thing that happened. Having read your post I have to remind myself how unfair it is for me to paint every mormon with the same brush. So I'm going to make an effort not to bash anymore. Afterall, some of the sweetest, most endearing people I've ever met are TBMs. Welcome Wiley! Feel free to call me out on anything I might say. I probably deserve it.
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The site recognizes, admonishes and supports the variety of purpose. If it didn't, it would be an afront to itself. Therefore, anyone may join and participate. Welcome aboard.
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Again, thanks everyone for the warm welcome and the interesting stories.  I hope to get to know many of you better over time. 

 

Most ex-members I have met are mean “anti-mormons”, and it was always hard to have a descent conversation.

You make such a good point here. There are some days I get a bee in my bonnet and I’m one of those mean-anti-mormons. Usually when I’m feeling particularly hurt by some LDS thing that happened. Having read your post I have to remind myself how unfair it is for me to paint every mormon with the same brush. So I’m going to make an effort not to bash anymore. Afterall, some of the sweetest, most endearing people I’ve ever met are TBMs. Welcome Wiley! Feel free to call me out on anything I might say. I probably deserve it.

 

 

Kerri and Jannypanny,

 

After reading many of the exit stories, I have a growing sympathy for what some have experienced.  Whether that was the reason for leaving the church or not doesn't matter.  They should not have happened.  ***Dogmom, you had every right to be mad at the councelor.  Shoot, I love hanging out in the foyer.  And I don't think you should ever have felt guilty for not being the "Molly Homemaker".  Based on what I read, your family seems to have grown well.  Good job on that.***  So I've decided that I will be OK if you point your anger my way from time to time.  Venting is a healthy activity, as my wife has taught me, and since I seem to be the only TBM mormon (is that what were called?) here, I don't mind being a scapegoat.  Just try and go easy and I'll try not to cry.  I don't take offense easily, and if I do, I tend to get over things quickly.  Likewise, I will do my best not to give offense and feel free to put me in check if needed.  This goes for all here. 

 

If you are here to learn we have a lot to offer. From psychology, to church history to even the history and theology of the early 1st century Christian movement. To see some of that look for my thread on what church Smith restored.

 

I'll warn you. Many of us do not pull any punches. And your testimony will be threatened by some of the things we will have to say.

 

It seems I may have to be cautious with you.  I have followed many of your threads, and I think we can get along just fine.  You obviously know much more about some things than I do.  That's OK, I'm still young.  But I have earned a few stripes, and I'm not the typical been married for x amount of years, have 5 kids, and still under 25, mormon that got hitched right out of my mission.  Though I did do that once...the hitched part..., but like I said, I've earned a few stripes.  I've worked hard to be where I am today, and I know why the gospel is important to me.  I'm certainly nowhere near "perfect", as they say. But, I'm OK with that, because I know I've come along way.  I'm not afraid to face anything that you or anyone else here might have to say.  But I should mention that I'm not particularly interested in all of the "alternate histories".   I've already heard many different stories about the church (depending on what part of the world you come from), some of which I've looked into extensively.  But I generally don't take a lot stock into what people write in books.  Or at least, I am very picky about what I believe when I read.  However, I am willing to discuss whatever if anyone is dying.  Maybe I should take a poll.  What would be the one topic I should research concerning church docterine, history, or cultural behavior?  I can't look into all of them...it's just too exhausting, and I've got a thesis to write. 

 

So I hope I don't sound smug in my nothing-you-can-say-will-make-me-lose-my-tesitmony attitude I might be portraying here.  All I'm trying to say is that I don't let things that I don't fully understand shake something that has been so important to me during my little journey of life.  That last part came from my wife who helped me word my feelins.  She is a smart one, and I've got to give credit where credit is due. 

 

So I have to go now, because I REALLY need to get this thesis finished.  This is very addicting as I've been reading all day.  But I'm going to try and put you guys away now so that I can get some work done.

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Still working on the whole quote-in-a-box thing.
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Wiley wrote: But I should mention that I'm not particularly interested in all of the "alternate histories"

 

Alternate histories?  I've never heard that term before.  Pray tell.....what do you mean by alternate histories?

 

Wiley wrote: Or at least, I am very picky about what I believe when I read. 

 

Does this include conference talks and other "church approved" material?  If not, why?

 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here..........just trying to understand.

 

Jane 

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I just meant the different stories on hears about things like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, church history...things that are not widely known in the church and may or may not be true, half true, yadadada.  Pretty much those things that people say to get mormons to question beliefs.  I've seen a number of mentions just around this website. That was what I was referring to.
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wiley:I just meant the different stories on hears about things like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, church history...things that are not widely known in the church and may or may not be true, half true, yadadada.  Pretty much those things that people say to get mormons to question beliefs.  I've seen a number of mentions just around this website. That was what I was referring to.

 

Hmmmmmm, so let me see if I'm getting this right?  Things that are widely known are true.  Things that are not widely known are primarily used to get mormons to question their beliefs?

 

Jane 

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wiley:I just meant the different stories on hears about things like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, church history...things that are not widely known in the church and may or may not be true, half true, yadadada.  Pretty much those things that people say to get mormons to question beliefs.  I've seen a number of mentions just around this website. That was what I was referring to.

 :: puts on kid gloves::

 

Actually Wiley, I keep pretty close tabs on the references that are made on this site, and I have to say, most all the materials that people are reading and citing are from credible authors and historians, not anti-Mormon slanderers.  Oh, there are those kinds of authors, too...but if you read most people's stories here, you'll find that the majority of folks  deliberately steered clear of those materials.  We were seeking truth, not amunition. 

 

For myself, I worked my way out of the church reading authors who were credible, LDS historians and scholars.  The likes of Leanard Arrington, Donna Hill, Newell and Avery, D. Michael Quinn (who was excommunicated, but mostly because the church a) didn't like how much information he exposed, and b) he came "out of the closet,"), Todd Compton, Philip Barlow, Samual Taylor, Grant Palmer, Juanita Brooks, Richard Van Wagoner, B.H. Robertson, and even Joseph Smith himself.  These are not people who are writing half-truths to deceive the faithful (perhaps Mr. Smith excepted).  These are courageous people who are willing to publish what they find, regardless of the consequences. 

 

In those histories, you are free to find what you want.  You might read and find the stories of faith overcoming adversity, divine mystery, and restoration against all odds.  Me?  I found the stories of real people doing what people do...but not what God does.

 

The point is, there is no NEED for half-truths.  The whole truth is there for the taking.  But don't take my word for it...investigate what you will. 

 

When we undertook that investigation, it was under the assumption that truth stands on it's own.  We believed the church was true, and that our quest would vindicate that truth.  The rest, as they say, is history...

 

:: takes off kid gloves ::

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