As I have left the church, everyday I find something new. Today I learned about The mountain Meadows Massacre. Why did I not learn about this in school in Utah History class in 7th grade? This is awful, I'm so sick to my stomache. I've been reading some of the survivor stories and I'm so angry. I am newer to this site so I'm sure this has been a thread before but it is new iformation to me. I don't want to believe that the Mormons had anything to do with this, but with everything I have learned I wouldn't put it past them. What does everyone have to say about this subject?
mnm:
As I have left the church, everyday I find something new. Today I learned about The mountain Meadows Massacre. Why did I not learn about this in school in Utah History class in 7th grade? This is awful, I'm so sick to my stomache. I've been reading some of the survivor stories and I'm so angry. I am newer to this site so I'm sure this has been a thread before but it is new iformation to me. I don't want to believe that the Mormons had anything to do with this, but with everything I have learned I wouldn't put it past them. What does everyone have to say about this subject?
It's shameful how the church has for years covered it up and denied any responsibility. If you haven't seen the dvd movie September Dawn, you would get a better understanding of what happened, albeit not entirely factual. But there is plenty of information on the topic online.
The link above is to an editorial in the Salt Lake Tribune regarding the memorial the church is making for the MMM. The editorial is interesting, but it's the comments from the apologists that never cease to amaze me.
mnm:Today I learned about The mountain Meadows Massacre. Why did I not learn about this in school in Utah History class in 7th grade?
Believe it or not, I actually did learn about this event in my 7th grade Utah History class. My teacher was a bit of a renegade mormon, and he prided himself on being a little over the top.
Many years later I learned that some of my ancestors, while not involved in the massacre itself, were certainly involved in the coverup. It makes me sick to think that I respected these people at all while growing up.
The facts of the MMM are somewhat cloudy, except for a few things:
1) Much if not all of the actual killing was done by white men painted as indians
2) 20 years later (after spending immeasurable time hiding from the law and obscuring the facts of the case), the mormon community conspired to paint John D. Lee as the guilty party, making him a scapegoat by sacrificing him to the authorities.
3) TSCC will do anything to keep the blame from being shifted to Brigham Young, St George Albert Smith and the local leaders.
4) Most of the land where the massacre took place is now owned by either TSCC or people sympathetic to maintaining the coverup. Their control of the land prevents any decent archeological work from being done.
There are numerous good, accurate books on the topic, all available from Amazon.com:
The Mountain Meadows Massacre was the tipping point for me. It was the cause of my "shelf" breaking moment. I do in fact feel your pain in the realization of what happened.
The two books that I would highly recommend (which have already been suggested) are:
Mountain Meadows Massacre - by Juanita Brooks
Blood of the Prophets - by Will Bagley
Both are excellent works that give very reliable sources on the subject.
I also would recommend Brian Patrick's film http://www.buryingthepast.com/ that is very well done and gives some recent events that are relevant.
The only way I found a way to cope with such a horrific event was to realize that those involved were in no way connected with God whatsoever. That includes Brigham, even if you think he was directly involved or not.
I would also encourage you to research Bood Atonement and the Oath of Vengence. Both subjects give better understanding to the disturbing events, Will Bagley's book describes them quite well.
Hello everyone, this is my first post other than in "tag you're it."
The MMM question pulled me out of the "lurker closet."
Not that I have any new insights into that horrible piece of history but, today I had to drive past the COB. There has been a new building being built just east of the Conference Center. Up until today there hadn't been any signage remotely suggesting what it was. Today, it was revealed..."The Church History Museum." My question is...does that mean the vaults will be opened for all to see or is this a museum of convenience. I was actually stunned to see "Church History Museum." Is this just a move from West Temple? If so, what's going in the old building? The new building looks to have a "fly gallery" which would mean live stage productions. ugh.
Also, back to the MMM...what survivor accounts are you reading? I'd be very interested to read them also.
Still new to posting so I don't know how to start a new thread. Call me a PostMo virgin.
FYI...I resigned several years ago but, THAT'S a thread in itself.
Hello everyone, this is my first post other than in "tag you're it."
The MMM question pulled me out of the "lurker closet."
Not that I have any new insights into that horrible piece of history but, today I had to drive past the COB. There has been a new building being built just east of the Conference Center. Up until today there hadn't been any signage remotely suggesting what it was. Today, it was revealed..."The Church History Museum." My question is...does that mean the vaults will be opened for all to see or is this a museum of convenience. I was actually stunned to see "Church History Museum." Is this just a move from West Temple? If so, what's going in the old building? The new building looks to have a "fly gallery" which would mean live stage productions. ugh.
Also, back to the MMM...what survivor accounts are you reading? I'd be very interested to read them also.
Still new to posting so I don't know how to start a new thread. Call me a PostMo virgin.
FYI...I resigned several years ago but, THAT'S a thread in itself.
I'm not on the page anymore and I forgot to bookmark it but I just googled the title and found countless sites. I aslo went to youtube and typed it in and found many vidoes news footage of the LDS side to the story. All the above links I have checked and are very very informative! I just went to blockbuster and rented September Dawn so I'll post later as to what I thought of this movie!
"Salt Lake City - the Mormon Church said Friday it will seek National Historic Status for Mountain Meadows the place where 120 were masacred on their way to California in 1857.
The disclosure came during a meeting of descendents and representatives of the Church of Latter day Saints in Carroltin, Arkansas.
'It just sort of guarantees the site of the Mountain Meadow Masacre will be a sacred place.' Elder Martin K. Jensen, church historian said in a telephone interview from Arkansas.
In December, the Mountain Meadow Masacre decendents, The Mountain Meadow Monument Association and The Mountain Meadown Masacre Foundation had asked the church to pursue landmark status for the site 35 miles northwest of St. George, utah.
The announcement was a major shift after church leaders rejected similar appeals in 1999 and 2007.
'This is a huge step forward.' Mountain Meadow Masacre Foundation president, Phil Bolinger said.
Last fall Bolinger presented petition from more than 1200 descendents asking for landmark status.
Jensen said it has become obvious that the church needed to do something to ensure that those who died would be appropriately remembered. He said President Gordon B. Hinckley endorsed the plan before his death January 27.
Mountain Meadows is already on the National Register of Historic Places from the US Interior Department would guarantee public access to the site.
Arkansas members of the Baker-Fancher wagon train were headed to California when they were attacked during a stop at Mountain Meadows. After a weeklong gun battle the group was tricked into a fake truce by Mormon Church leader and they were killed by the Mormon Militia, September 11, 1857.
Decendents have been at odds with the Mormon Church for decades about the Meadows. They dispute the church's control of the gravesites and have accused it of keeping the masacre out of its official history."
I just finished watching the movie and I'm still in tears! I cant believe something like that happened! I am so done being little miss nice girl! I am always so careful around my family afraid to offend them. I will still be nice but I am not going to let them make me feel guilty anymore. I am FREE! Please if you have not seen the movie, rent it, it is a great big eye opener!!!!
mnm:
I just finished watching the movie and I'm still in tears! I cant believe something like that happened! I am so done being little miss nice girl! I am always so careful around my family afraid to offend them. I will still be nice but I am not going to let them make me feel guilty anymore. I am FREE! Please if you have not seen the movie, rent it, it is a great big eye opener!!!!
The first time my wife and I saw it was at one of our postmo chapter meetings with several others. There were a few moments where we had to stop the movie so people could express their shame, emotional reaction and wipe away the tears too! It really hits home that this was no flick of history, but an actual massacre of 120 women, children and men. The coverup that followed by BY and others is very shocking, but not all too surprising given the secret nature of just about every doctrine at that time period arising out of the temple. I'm so glad I don't have to be associated with that anylonger.
The Mountain Meadows Massacre answers, very effectively, the question: Is the Mormon Church a Cult. Although only a small number of church members (20 to 30?) participated actively in the Massacre, virtually the entire population of Utah was complicit in the cover-up. No body turned in the culprits. The claims of present day Mormons that such a thing could never happen today is not very convincing to me. Any organization that relies on faith over reason and which openly avows following the leaders over their own moral compass, cannot escape being appropriately labeled a cult, and is in grave danger of being directed into horrific conduct. The only element that needs to be added is a misguided or malevelent leader.
I saw a program on the history channel today dealing with David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. The narrator pointed out that the Branch Davidians were particularly susceptible to being controlled by a rogue leader because they believed in revelation and relied on faith over reason. I found this to be (in my experience) a close parallel with Mormonism. I truly feel that the Mormon church is a disaster waiting to happen. I believe that a very charismatic leader could get the members to do anything he wanted them to do. Luckily, unlike the Branch Davidians, the Mormon Church, with it's succession traditions, doesn't appear likely to ever have a very young "firebrand" leader assume control.
Incidentally, soon after gaining control of the Branch Davidians, Koresh, arranged to have access to all of the Sect's women reserved exclusively for himself. This included, not only the adult women, but children as young as 13 years. The members disreguarded their own moral compasses and acquiesed to Koresh's demands. (just as most of the Mormon church members submitted to Smith's and Young's bizarre teachings in the mid 1800s.)
I have visited the Meadow on numerous occasions. It is a favorite place to take visiting TBM family members. The Cog dis is practically visible.
Still new to posting so I don't know how to start a new thread. Call me a PostMo virgin.
Lapsed, scroll down to the bottom of the page and you will see three icons: Fast Reply, Post Reply, and New Topic. Clicking on New Topic opens a new thread. There is a New Topic icon at the top of the page as well.
mnm:
As I have left the church, everyday I find something new. Today I learned about The mountain Meadows Massacre. Why did I not learn about this in school in Utah History class in 7th grade? This is awful, I'm so sick to my stomache. I've been reading some of the survivor stories and I'm so angry. I am newer to this site so I'm sure this has been a thread before but it is new iformation to me. I don't want to believe that the Mormons had anything to do with this, but with everything I have learned I wouldn't put it past them. What does everyone have to say about this subject?
Welcome MNM,
You are not alone in that sentiment, but you are likely motivated differently to most TBMs who hold a different flavour of that sentiment that is expressed in the same words.
