First of all it started with facebook - the original thread is HERE .
So I guess she felt ill equipted to "debate" me so she sic'd her husband on me.
He requested to be added as a friend so he could "debate" me about mormonism. I declined adding him as a friend to debate it openly on my page mainly because my facebook page is not a theological debate forum!
I gave him several outs, but finally took the bait.
After his request I replied with this:
No I don't care to. Thanks. I already know all of the apologist views and answers. If I want raised blood pressure or a headache I'll visit FAIR and FARMS again, LOL.
You are true believing Mormon and I respect that. I know whatever I have means nothing to you. Plus "debating" faith based on prayer verses facts is pointless. You believe what you want and I believe what I want.
The Debater:
Freedom of religion and freedom from persecution is a two-way street. I hope you understand that. I have no qualms about what anyone believes, whether they feel they're a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Jedi Knight! :) I guess the think that riled up my wife and I was the active, outward way you seem to be attacking the LDS faith. It's almost bordering on hatred and it's certainly not tolerant of the faith and beliefs of Mormons, which you yourself stated is their right to feel and express. Does this make sense?
Are you also giving equal time in your questioning of religion? What I mean by this is that you have railed against Mormons and expressed your belief that it's not a true religion. Do you have any qualms about Scientology, Hinduism, Islam, Catholicism? Or is it just the Mormon church that's wrong?
I have many other questions, but I'll stop there.
My reply:
Yes I do have qualms about them but I was never one of them. I didn't have my money stollen from them to build a mall, among other things. I don't believe any religion is true. I am agnostic. I don't believe in organized religion. And just because I choose to post a couple of news articles about the Mormon church, and a couple of fact based blogs then I am "attacking" the mormon faith.
That's your opinion and you are free to have it. I am also free to choose what I want to blog about, or even write about, so no I don't have to focus on other religions if I don't want to. I know the most about Mormonism because I was one. I was never scientologist (thank god), jew, muslim, etc. (My husband was a catholic before though).
We attend the Unitarian Universalist church which is able to dicuss all religious teachings and allows us to learn about all faiths. Again, I am now an Agnostic, while my husband still considers himself a Christian, but he doesn't believe in any organized religion. He doesn't believe he needs a religion to get into heaven. As Grant Palmer's article stated "Jesus stressed kind behavior, not rituals, to get to heaven." -Grant H. Palmer, LDS member.
If I seem angry it's because I am. Many members who leave the LDS faith are angry. It's called the greiving process, there are like 12 steps. Angry, acceptance, and grieving are among some of the steps.
Let me ask you this; when does a prophet speak as a prophet and when does he speak as a man? because it seems to me that once a prophet dies and their "words from God" no longer are PC then they were speaking as man, and no longer a prophet of god.
In the end, why do you two feel the need to try and debate me on my beliefs? Because I have some blogs you dislike or disagree with? Why? You disagree with them, so don't read them and move on.
If you are 100% a true believer then my blogs should not shake your faith, or bother you, since you know you are right and I am wrong.
Oh and since you didn't notice all too well, I did "dis" the bible several times and not just the BoM and the LDS faith. Since the majority of religions use the bible as their base, it's just easier to write about my disagreements with the Bible than to address each religion individually.
The Debator:
My faith isn't shaken by your blogs, I'm just curious as to your motives since you seem to have an axe to grind against the Mormon church. You accuse them of "stealing your money" for instance. I wasn't aware tithing was mandatory in Michigan.
My response:
Ok fine here are some questions for you:
How did the curse of Cain survive the flood? If all the evil was washed from the face of the earth in a flood then how did "blacks" survive the flood and continue on with the curse? Did God give new men the curse?
Why did Joseph Smith give blacks the preisthood but then Brigham young take it away from them?
Why do women no longer hold the preisthood?
Why do mormons still practice celestial polygamy, but deny that they practice polygamy at all?
Why would God commanded Nephi to kill Laban so a nation doesn't dwindle in disbelief? Yet ultimately that's what happens with the destruction of the Nephites and the disbelief of the Lamanites.
Why does the church teach watered down history to prospective converts and children, like how the BoM was really translated from a seer stone in a hat and not as it is depicted in pictures of him sitting at a table with the golden plates infront of him?
Do you know ow many times Joseph Smith was in jail or arrested for crimes BEFORE he became a "prophet"? How many times after he was a prophet and what for? Why did Joseph Smith order the destruction of a printing press, just because he didn't like what they wrote about him? (Now I know why you want to tear my blog apart, it's taught to you to destroy something that doesn't make mormon's out to be bright shiney happy people.)
Why did Joseph Smith practice Polyandry and Polygamy, even though he wrote in the D&C saying adultery was an abomination? Why was he marrying 14 year old girls, behind Emma's back?
When asked in a Time magazine interview if God the Father was once a man, President Gordon Hinckley said, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it..." (8/4/97, p. 56).
Yet in the 2008 RS manual, that is to be taught from for the next 2 years, states, on page 40 by Joseph Smith, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens."
Doesn't the Prophet know what his own religion teaches? Shouldn't he know? Or is this just new teachings that was started AFTER the interview? I'm pretty sure this has always been doctrine.
I could go on with questions, but let's start here and see what answers you have. I'm sure I won't agree with you but I will listen.
No it's "mandatory" to get into your heaven and temples. you are judged harshly by members (especially bishopric members) if you aren't a full tithe payer. Although I do think that the original context of the scripture was misconstruded as time went on.
In D&C 119:5 it states
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you
1. something that remains above what is used or needed.
2. an amount, quantity, etc., greater than needed.
It's also defined like this in the scripture dictionary as well. So I believe the true intent of the scripture was NOT to take 10% of whatever came in but rather 10% of what was LEFT after initial family needs were met.
It seems also that tithing is putting Utah Saints in the bankruptcy house, since Utah is the #1 state for bankruptcies.
I've got to cut this short since my baby needs to be nursed I have to make dinner for 8 and still do some launry and dishes, and other chores.
The Debator:
Stephanie, your arguments and challenges to the Book of Mormon and the validity of the LDS church seem right out of any old anti-LDS propaganda, and things I've heard a million times. I could give you a logical answer, or an I don't know, and the effect would be the same. You've already made it up in your mind that whatever happened here discredit the LDS church and that it's a fraud based on the actions, or inactions, of it's members and leaders. Let's shelve those questions and points for now, and if necessary later on I'd like to deal with them one by one. I don't have the time or the energy to deal with them point by point because frankly it's going to devolve into a spiraling argument of my opinion versus yours.
However, I have one question for you if you're brave enough to tackle it. Of course this will spawn other questions, but here goes:
Did you ever receive YOUR OWN personal testimony as to the truthfulness of the LDS church?
If you can answer that for me, straight-forward, I think we can progress onto something meaningful and enlightening.
Actually it's 10% of your increase, and in the Bible (which you also feel is false) it doesn't give examples of 10% of what is "left over," it talks by examples of people giving their best, first tenth of increase.
I'm not sure if you saw my last question, or whether you're opting not to respond to it:
Did you ever receive YOUR OWN personal testimony as to the truthfulness of the LDS church, and the Book of Mormon?
Okay but you still haven't answered any of my questions either.
"Did you ever receive YOUR OWN personal testimony as to the truthfulness of the LDS church, and the Book of Mormon?"
The way you stated this makes it look like you believe I don't have a testimony of my own about the so called "truthfulness" of the church and BoM.
Why the emphisis on the "YOUR OWN"? No one pushed me to "disbelieve" other than my own inner self and spirit.
Since I know where you are trying to go with this, because it's kind of preprogrammed for you, I'll do a little simple Q&A. If I left something out that you are possibly wondering about LMK and I'll try to answer it for you.
<B>"Did you ever receive YOUR OWN personal testimony as to the truthfulness of the LDS church, and the Book of Mormon?"</B>
Q: Did I ever have a spiritual "witness" to the "truth"?
A: Yes, but I now realized that it was the very SAME feeling I got from watching "Beaches" or from reading a really good book. Does this mean that the movie was TRUE, or that those books were TRUE as well?
Q: Why don't I go back and read the Book of Mormon again?
A: I have done that, and each time it gets dumber and dumber. In fact, reading the Book of Mormon carefully was one of THE things that made me realize it was phoney.
Q: Shouldn't I listen to what the Spirit tells me?
A: The Spirit is telling me to get out of the Mormon church, now and I am listening loud and clear. It wasn't an easy desicion either, beacuse I do have family still deeply involved in the church and still have many friends in the church.
Q: Is it sad that I have lost my testimony?
A: No. Actually I have GAINED a testimony: I know, with every fiber of my being, and beyond any shadow of doubt, that Joseph Smith was a fraud, a womanizer and a liar, and that the church he founded is a man-made organization, and that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century work of imaginary fiction. I have gained this testimony through careful prayer and study, and the Spirit of Truth has confirmed it to me. This knowledge has brought me great joy and peace of mind. Would you like to know more?
Q: Doesn't this just mean I never really had a testimony of the Gospel.
A: If I didn't, it wasn't for lack of trying. Actually I really did believe it all. Otherwise I would never have paid all that tithing or busted my butt trying to fulfill all those callings. I dutifully got up early on Sundays and got my whole large family ready for church practically every Sunday. I took on talks, prayed in class, did FHE, we prayed together as a family daily, read scriptures daily, etc etc etc. I still felt empty and things till felt wrong. My inner spirit was screaming at me and I tried to ignore it. I just couldn't any longer.
I am now very happy, a lot more stress free. I feel like I have finally found the truth! My integrity has been restored too.
LMK if I missed something for you.
As a bonus though:
Q: Why am I tearing down rather than building up?
A: I think it is a good thing to uncover lies and to open people's eyes. I am saying to you the same thing that Mormon missionaries say to investigators: Your present religion is false. I however am not saying you should follow me, because that is totally up to you. I am not preaching to you, unless you want to be preached to. My postings are what started this, something your wife found and disliked. So, it's not like I came to your front door and asked for you to be "saved".
All I asked for was a friendship, but Liz lokked around my page and didn't like what she saw and got mad.
I wonder how many people feel about Missionaries knocking on their door and telling them that their belief system is flat out wrong and not the way into heaven? From my understanding they aren't liking it because the Mormon numbers are dropping.For every 4 people that leave the church there is only 3 that replace them through conversion, and the Mormon birth rate has dropped so low that it's not replacing it's elderly dying people.
Now how about my questions?
The Debator's final comment. He then "blocked" me so I couldn't respond any more. I found that the most ironic because he's the one that WANTED to debate. Also notice that he tells me I am "hostile" and "angry". LOL
I think I've learned all that I need to have learned from your answers. In essence you admit that you are easily duped, since you followed and preached something based on no testimony or witness for X amount of years, and only broke away when the court of justice was knocking on your door and the "jig was up." So your new discovery and enlightenment about the falsehood of the LDS church is equally dubious and not credible. Your answer about following something with no real testimony or real truth in your heart echoes your current path, and I'd say is just as likely responsible for it. Rather than being enlightened, you're a follower and easily manipulated. Putting yourself in the same light as Aristotle was a stretch, but I'll let you live with your delusion. Suffice it to say that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Mormons, who are smarter than you and are still Mormons - and I'm not saying they're smart because they are still with the church. They're smart because they have college degrees, hold jobs of a scientific nature, teach, etc. They still follow the faith and I tend to trust their judgement more than someone educated by surfing the Internet and being pseudo-intellectual by trying to throw 3 ten dollar words into each sentence to try to make themselves look smart (yes, I read your letter to your family).
Your response and new life mission is one of anger and vengeance. You say you're wise and well-read. Try reading Moby Dick. It's the story of your new life. Your white whale is the church and you're going to hunt it down until you kill it or it kills you, regardless of the outcome (which I imagine will be the same fate as Ahab's). See, even if nothing ever comes of the conflict you're consumed by hatred and that's self-destructive and pointless.
It's just truly sad that you're an instrument of discord now, you seem to be reasonably intelligent for the most part. However, life is about choices and you've made yours. So be it.
Just wanted to give you that one chance to prove you had some credibility and you don't.
His final response just has me rolling with laughter, which I sorely needed! I was annoyed he cut things short. I thought it was getting good and I REALLY wanted his answers to any of my questions!
I'm thinking he either didn't have an answer, or was hit with such a Cog Dis that he couldn't handle it anymore.
The first part really struck my funny bone where he said "In essence you admit that you are easily duped, since you followed and preached something based on no testimony. . ." Um. . yeah I was "easily duped" I was born into the cult who literally brainwashed me into believing what they wee telling me was true! Most children are "easily duped" otherwise we wouldn't have figures like Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or The Easter Bunny, around. LOL
Oh and the biggest ironic statement of all "Rather than being enlightened, you're a follower and easily manipulated." OMFG - if I WAS a follower, wouldn't I STILL be in the Mormon church?! I am QUITE enlightened, at least much more than this poor chap!
I don't see how I am "angry" or "vengeful" though. It's certainly NOT my mission to change the believers onto the truth. If it was I'd probably be like their missionaries and knocking on LDS member's doors telling them just how freaking wrong they are and how duped they have been.
Don't you like how I have become an "instrument of discord" . The only thing I've been an instrument of is making children!
Oh and he's "letting me live with my delusion" too. Wow thanks for the permission!
When you get responses like this, it almost feels like a win! It's not that I was trying to win anyways, but he was the one that wanted to "debate" and he didn't do anything other than "name call" me personally without even knowing me.
I still find it incredibly ironic that THEY were the ones that started the debate. I never started the dialog, they did. I KNEW they didn't really want to debate. It's not their nature. debaters would come at me full force, but they usually stick to missionary work or apologist sites.
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I know I know more than they do now, simply because of how he ended the "debate". It's left me scratching my head a bit, but also laughing.
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I was more nervous that it would turn into a stress inducing conversation, so I am glad it didn't.
I thought this was another porn thread. Sorry. I'll be back later to read the entire thing, it's like Herman Melville wrote it or something. Just kidding.
He really is a master... debator. <rimshot>. sorry, I couldn't resist. Still reading, BTW.
Finished reading. Fairly typical response material from someone who doesn't know the history of their own religion but likes fake it that they do. The whole, "oh, ha ha ha, your responses are so typically ant-mormon, lol, I've read through these things thousands of times, hee hee. I'm also a moron, and in truth I've maybe seen these things mentioned once or twice in my entire life, but I won't tell you because that would be an admission that I don't even know what I believe."
As for the moby-dick thing... yeah, I don't think so. There may be some people out there who are as obsessed about destroying mormonism as Captain Ahab was about finding and killing the white whale, but they are the minority, in fact I'd say they're probably one out of a thousand or so. The rest of us get out, get over it and get on with life, and show up at postmo.org to talk about some of the crazy shit we used to believe and the crazy believers who won't stop harassing us.
Captain Ahab had a cabin boy he could use to "release" some energy with anyway. And Melville was a blowhard, ahoy. Good grief! reading through the multiple pages he dedicated to the slaughter and subsequent rendering of whale fat into oil, and every single freaking tool that they used... I finally skimmed ahead and skipped the entire part. Give me ole Qweequeg and his homoerotic relationship with Ishmael any day.
Nah, your master-debator is pretty much the best that general mormon membership has to throw at us "antis." They have nothing to offer and nothing new to spout out. It's those people at FAIR and FARMS who should be likened to Captain Ahab, obsessively defending the indefensible and searching for that which will never be found... proof. In the end the lack of proof will inevitably gobble them up, and spit out a coffin-like life boat for one or two of them to float on till they're picked up by us antis on our metaphorical "rachel," that is if they're humble enough to accept defeat and set aside their hubristic inability to accept logic.
tjs - I totally agree with you, which is why I find it all funny. Asking me to debate him and then really showed nothing of substance or sense on any level. But you know I am only marginally intellectual, or that suedo intellect. ((rolling eyes here))
Wow...I am surprised he didn't bear his testimony to you at the end. Isn't that what all "good little missionaries" are supposed to do to us horrible apostates that read anti literature?
You handled this wonderfully, I would love to have you and
WFS in the same room with your knowledge and good sense..not
to mention how you put things across. Way to go..kinda wish
he had stuck around too! You did great!!
I continue to be amazed by responses like this guy.
It's simple, if you get swindelled, you are going to be mad. It's normal.
If you see someone else being swindelled in the same way, it's the decient thing to do to try and warn them about it.
But then you get guys like this who are playing an active role in the swindell, and are saying shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone. You are supposed to remain quiet.
How hard is it for people to see that many of us who have left fell like we lost a large part of our lives. We are being torn apart by our relatives for our decision. Families are being ripped apart - and we aren't going to be angry ? and they don't expect us to warn others about the danger ?
No, for me the only moral high ground is to try and wake people up to the lies.
That said . . . I'm guessing you hit a nerve with this guy. He's probably closer to joining this board than you might think. Still, that's no excuse for such behavior.
