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Vatican warns of Mormon Bapstisms for the Dead
 
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http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27825&cb300=vocations

 

Vatican Warns of Mormon 'Baptism of the Dead'<!-- JG 6511 - 1 -->

By Chaz Muth
5/3/2008

Catholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)

Vatican issues an order to Bishops to not allow Parish records to be given to genealogical societies of the Mormon Church.

WASHINGTON (CNS) - In an effort to block posthumous rebaptisms by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Catholic dioceses throughout the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah.

An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained by Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to direct all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained in those registers.

The order came in light of "grave reservations" expressed in a Jan. 29 letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the clergy congregation's letter said.

Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. bishops' Secretariat of Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records -- such as baptismal documentation -- to posthumously baptize by proxy the ancestors of church members.

Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common practice for the Latter-day Saints -- commonly known as Mormons -- for more than a century, allowing the church's faithful to have their ancestors baptized into their faith so they may be united in the afterlife, said Mike Otterson, a spokesman in the church's Salt Lake City headquarters.

In a telephone interview with CNS May 1, Otterson said he wanted a chance to review the contents of the letter before commenting on how it will affect the Mormons' relationship with the Catholic Church.

"This dicastery is bringing this matter to the attention of the various conferences of bishops," the letter reads. "The congregation requests that the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in order to ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

The letter is dated 10 days before Pope Benedict XVI's April 15-20 U.S. visit, during which he presided over an ecumenical prayer service attended by two Mormon leaders. It marked the first time Mormons had participated in a papal prayer service.

Father Massa said he could see how the policy stated in the letter could strain relations between the Catholic Church and the Latter-day Saints.

"It certainly has that potential," he said. "But I would also say that the purpose of interreligious dialogue is not to only identify agreements, but also to understand our differences. As Catholics, we have to make very clear to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is unacceptable from the standpoint of Catholic truth."

The Catholic Church will eventually open a dialogue with the Mormons about the rebaptism issue, Father Massa said, "but we are at the beginning of the beginning of a new relationship with the LDS. The first step in any dialogue is to establish trust and to seek friendship."

The two faiths share intrinsic viewpoints on key issues the United States is facing, particularly the pro-life position on abortion and an opposition to same-sex marriage.

However, theological differences have cropped up between Mormons and Catholics in the past.

In 2001 the Vatican's doctrinal congregation issued a ruling that baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be considered a valid Christian baptism, thus requiring converts from that religion to Catholicism to receive a Catholic baptism.

"We don't have an issue with the fact that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize our baptisms, because we don't recognize theirs," Otterson said. "It's a difference of belief."

When issuing its 2001 ruling, the Vatican said that even though the Mormon baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the church's beliefs about the identity of the three persons are so different from Catholic and mainline Christian belief that the rite cannot be regarded as a Christian baptism.

Latter-day Saints regard Jesus and the Holy Spirit as children of the Father and the Heavenly Mother. They believe that baptism was instituted by the Father, not Christ, and that it goes back to Adam and Eve.

Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald -- vicar general of the Diocese of Salt Lake City -- said he didn't understand why the Latter-day Saints church was singled out in this latest Vatican policy regarding parish records.

"We have a policy not to give out baptismal records to anyone unless they are entitled to have them," Msgr. Fitzgerald said of his diocese. "That isn't just for the Church of the Latter-day Saints. That is for all groups."

Though he said the Salt Lake City Diocese has enjoyed a long-standing dialogue with the Latter-day Saints, Msgr. Fitzgerald said the diocese does not support giving the Mormons names for the sake of rebaptism.

Mormons have been criticized by several other faiths -- perhaps most passionately by the Jews -- for the church's practice of posthumous baptism.

Members of the Latter-day Saints believe baptizing their ancestors by proxy gives the dead an opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. The actual baptism-by-proxy ceremony occurs in a Mormon temple, and is intended to wash sins away for the commencement of church membership.

Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and said it is disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust victims.

"Baptism by proxy is a fundamentally important doctrine of the Latter-day Saints," Otterson said. "We have cooperative relationships with churches, governments -- both state and national -- going back to the last century. Our practice of negotiating for records and making them available for genealogical research is very well known."

Father Massa said he is not aware of aggressive attempts to obtain baptismal records at Catholic parishes in any of the U.S. dioceses.

He also said the Catholic Church will continue to reach out to the Mormons and carry on the efforts of understanding that have already begun, especially in Salt Lake City.

"Profound theological differences are not an excuse for avoiding dialogue, but a reason for pursuing dialogue," Father Massa said.

 

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Another article on the practice of baptising popes after they die... they even seal them to fictitious women in the temple. 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/sphereNews/idUSL0218416820070204?sp=true&view=sphere

 

 

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Are there any people still in the church who wana do a little espionage to see who's baptised and who they married them to? I bet it would be tons of fun :)

 

If we could get a whole bunch of pages of screencapped names and stuff we could show how honest in the dealings of the dead the morg are. 

 
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Anyone can go in and use the geneological libraries. I've even been in the local once since resigning.

 

 

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I would like to see a Do Not Baptist law. It would be like the Do Not Call list. If you don't want to baptised by the Mormons after you die, you could put your name on the list. I think many Catholics would support a list and be among the first to put their names on such a list. They wouldn't be the first, though. That would be me.

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Thanks for pointing out the articles... facinating.  I am going to post something on my blog about this now!
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This may be yet another reason the church has created a new genealogy site for LDS only. It sounds like public access to records is being phased out.

 

Without access to records, catholics and jews won't know their ancestors were baptized/sealed.  

 

 

 

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/6038/

 
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Rebellious Spirit:

This may be yet another reason the church has created a new genealogy site for LDS only. It sounds like public access to records is being phased out.

 

Without access to records, catholics and jews won't know their ancestors were baptized/sealed.  

 

 

 

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/6038/

 

Excellent Point - something to think about

 
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I've always thought that baptisms for the dead were an invasion of a deceased ones privacy as well as their family.  It just seems so wrong on so many levels.  I'm glad the Catholic Church is standing up to the Mormons.  It should be against the law to baptise someone after they are dead when they can't answer if they want it or not.  It's sickening.
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alli:
I've always thought that baptisms for the dead were an invasion of a deceased ones privacy as well as their family.  It just seems so wrong on so many levels.  I'm glad the Catholic Church is standing up to the Mormons.  It should be against the law to baptise someone after they are dead when they can't answer if they want it or not.  It's sickening.

 

 

Great idea!  They should put a moratorium on baptism's for the dead until the millennium - that way we could consult the dead at to their true intention!

 
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When my mother was undergoing chemo she was also doing extractions for the church, because she was sick, and because I love her dearly I helped her for six months. The whole time I was nervous, worried that my work might someday lead to an unwanted rebaptism of someone's family.. I never once believed that someone on the "other side" was going to benefit, one way or the other, but I certainly believed in the very alive ancestors who would be offended by the church's actions. I still get uncomfortable at the thought. Frankly I think the church has a lot of cajones to even think that they can proxy baptize whoever is on the list.
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When my Aunt had my Jewish ancenstors baptized for the dead I just flipped.  The nerve!  Many years later, I still have some anger over it, but I also realize that it really doesn't matter since the whole thing is ridiculous anyway.

 

Their excuse is always that the person can accept or reject the 'Truth' in the afterlife.

 

 Since it is impossible to dunk all dead people, would God really be so unfeeling as to reject a soul because they didn't end up on an earthly list?  Give me a break!

 
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Rebellious Spirit:

This may be yet another reason the church has created a new genealogy site for LDS only. It sounds like public access to records is being phased out.

 

Without access to records, catholics and jews won't know their ancestors were baptized/sealed.  

 

 

 

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/6038/

 

 That's exactly what I thought when I heard about that too.

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One (only one!) of my problems with baptism for the dead is that Mormons would be the first and the loudest to complain if another church did it to their ancestors.

 

Let's say we stage a public ceremony in a park where we make Gordon B. Hinckley and his wife Margarey honorary members of our Pagans for Progress church. If anyone complains we would say, "No drama! They can reject Pagans for Progress (the only true church!) in the next life." Imagine the outcry! A mic on the moon would be able to pick up the screams of anguish.

 

I always have problems with people who treat other people in a way they would never accept being treated. For me it is the litmus test for abuse.

 

My DM has some kind of social learning disability. It has been a source of pain for the family. She is in many ways childlike, but she also has that childlike insight into situations at times. She is very TBM, wouldn't dream of criticising the church, but temple work for the dead worries her. She said once, "It will all have to done over in the next life because they got so many things wrong!" That is the sort of thing that worries her, making mistakes, doing work incorrectly. She can be OCD about it.

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bored_in_happy_valley:
When my mother was undergoing chemo she was also doing extractions for the church, because she was sick, and because I love her dearly I helped her for six months. The whole time I was nervous, worried that my work might someday lead to an unwanted rebaptism of someone's family.. I never once believed that someone on the "other side" was going to benefit, one way or the other, but I certainly believed in the very alive ancestors who would be offended by the church's actions. I still get uncomfortable at the thought. Frankly I think the church has a lot of cajones to even think that they can proxy baptize whoever is on the list.

 

My father does extractions on the computer too. Because he can't drive anymore, I drive him back and forth to submit the names to the genealogy library. Because it makes him so happy at the end of his life to do this, I don't say anything about it. But I do feel like it's an invasion of other peoples' privacy.

 

 

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Winyan:
bored_in_happy_valley:
When my mother was undergoing chemo she was also doing extractions for the church, because she was sick, and because I love her dearly I helped her for six months. The whole time I was nervous, worried that my work might someday lead to an unwanted rebaptism of someone's family.. I never once believed that someone on the "other side" was going to benefit, one way or the other, but I certainly believed in the very alive ancestors who would be offended by the church's actions. I still get uncomfortable at the thought. Frankly I think the church has a lot of cajones to even think that they can proxy baptize whoever is on the list.

 

My father does extractions on the computer too. Because he can't drive anymore, I drive him back and forth to submit the names to the genealogy library. Because it makes him so happy at the end of his life to do this, I don't say anything about it. But I do feel like it's an invasion of other peoples' privacy.

 

 

 

 Well I only did it because it made my mom happy to know she was fullfilling her calling. I did it for her and her alone.

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alli:
I've always thought that baptisms for the dead were an invasion of a deceased ones privacy as well as their family.  It just seems so wrong on so many levels.  I'm glad the Catholic Church is standing up to the Mormons.  It should be against the law to baptise someone after they are dead when they can't answer if they want it or not.  It's sickening.

I too, have problems with baptism for the dead.  I must believe that when persons on earth do wrong (i.e. sexual abuse of all kinds) there has to be a point at which there must be retribution for deeds perpetrated.  In my opinion one is giving permission to do whatever one wants to do with little fear of punishment.  I know the church answer to this is that people will have the same mind-set in the here after.  In my opinion also, I havw seen cases where a nonmember parent died and the remaining spouse will not give permission for Temple work, leaving the adult son/daughter feeling at the very least guilty about not doing the parent's work.  As a member for 25 years, it was not until recently had so many questions regarding Morman Doctrine.

 

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bored_in_happy_valley:
Winyan:

 

My father does extractions on the computer too. Because he can't drive anymore, I drive him back and forth to submit the names to the genealogy library. Because it makes him so happy at the end of his life to do this, I don't say anything about it. But I do feel like it's an invasion of other peoples' privacy.

 

 

 

 Well I only did it because it made my mom happy to know she was fullfilling her calling. I did it for her and her alone.

 

 Me too.

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Cathy:
alli:
I've always thought that baptisms for the dead were an invasion of a deceased ones privacy as well as their family.  It just seems so wrong on so many levels.  I'm glad the Catholic Church is standing up to the Mormons.  It should be against the law to baptise someone after they are dead when they can't answer if they want it or not.  It's sickening.

I too, have problems with baptism for the dead.  I must believe that when persons on earth do wrong (i.e. sexual abuse of all kinds) there has to be a point at which there must be retribution for deeds perpetrated.  In my opinion one is giving permission to do whatever one wants to do with little fear of punishment.  I know the church answer to this is that people will have the same mind-set in the here after.  In my opinion also, I havw seen cases where a nonmember parent died and the remaining spouse will not give permission for Temple work, leaving the adult son/daughter feeling at the very least guilty about not doing the parent's work.  As a member for 25 years, it was not until recently had so many questions regarding Morman Doctrine.

 

 

Cathy... Welcome to the board!  We're glad you're here.

 

 

 

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I would think there would be a cry of outrage among the LDS folk if Catholics suddenly baptized deceased, life-long, temple worthy, LDS members. How about church prophets? How about those who died while in service of the LDS Church?

 

Catholics also believe they are the "one true Church"---shouldn't they try to save as many souls as possible and baptize for the dead?

IMO, it is the height of arrogance to claim the "souls" of those like Joan of Arc, Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the Jews of the Holocaust, and anyone else who lived worthy lives dedicated to their own faiths.

 

It is a matter of respect in the minds of those left behind.

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Grape Nephi:

Anyone can go in and use the geneological libraries. I've even been in the local once since resigning.

 

 

 

Actually, I went a couple of weeks ago, and they told me that you can use the facilities to find your ancestry, but to see who's been baptised and what temple work, you have to be registered, meaning you have to have your member ID and baptism date.

 

So if anyone wants to go to familysearch.org and register with their information, then pass on the user name/password to the rest of us so we can view the information, we can find what our LDS family's been doing behind our back. Seriously, I have things to look up. But I can't cause I'm not a member.

 

When I asked the lady at the geneology center how long they've been doing that, she said they've been always doing it that way. When I told her that no, 7 years ago they didn't, she just repeated that they've always done it that way. Brainwashing!

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hypatia:

I would think there would be a cry of outrage among the LDS folk if Catholics suddenly baptized deceased, life-long, temple worthy, LDS members. How about church prophets? How about those who died while in service of the LDS Church?

 

Catholics also believe they are the "one true Church"---shouldn't they try to save as many souls as possible and baptize for the dead?

IMO, it is the height of arrogance to claim the "souls" of those like Joan of Arc, Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the Jews of the Holocaust, and anyone else who lived worthy lives dedicated to their own faiths.

 

It is a matter of respect in the minds of those left behind.

 

 Makes you wonder if the morg counts all the dead souls they baptize in their membership statistics.

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Lise:

When my Aunt had my Jewish ancenstors baptized for the dead I just flipped.  The nerve!  Many years later, I still have some anger over it, but I also realize that it really doesn't matter since the whole thing is ridiculous anyway.

 

Their excuse is always that the person can accept or reject the 'Truth' in the afterlife.

 

 Since it is impossible to dunk all dead people, would God really be so unfeeling as to reject a soul because they didn't end up on an earthly list?  Give me a break!

 

 I don't think he cares. But it is a good way to keep mormons busy.

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When I read about this in the news I was super excited!  It's about time another religion stood up to the morg!  They have no right, it's so disrespectful! 

 

Where the hell is the agency in that?  I can just hear what the Morg has to say about that.  Yeah, we know that they were good people who loved and devoted their lives to another religion, but it was the wrong church so we did them a favor and baptized them into our church, the only true church.  Now they can live with God and Jesus.  

 
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hypatia:

I would think there would be a cry of outrage among the LDS folk if Catholics suddenly baptized deceased, life-long, temple worthy, LDS members. How about church prophets? How about those who died while in service of the LDS Church?

 

Catholics also believe they are the "one true Church"---shouldn't they try to save as many souls as possible and baptize for the dead?

IMO, it is the height of arrogance to claim the "souls" of those like Joan of Arc, Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the Jews of the Holocaust, and anyone else who lived worthy lives dedicated to their own faiths.

 

It is a matter of respect in the minds of those left behind.

 

I heard this story on the local news tonight.  I was watching with my TBM mom and hearing it made her really upset.  She even said, "Well, if we're a false church then what does it matter if we baptise their people?!"  (I decided not to get into it with her tonight because I didn't want a repeat of last night's argument about certain humanitarian projects and the rampant ethnocentrism the church displays.)  But, if the reverse was done, she would be part of the outrage, no doubt. 

 

I guess I just need to nut up and move out.  Living with my parents has been weird since I stopped believing but now it is getting unbearable.

 
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beenthere:
Grape Nephi:

Anyone can go in and use the geneological libraries. I've even been in the local once since resigning.

 

 

 

Actually, I went a couple of weeks ago, and they told me that you can use the facilities to find your ancestry, but to see who's been baptised and what temple work, you have to be registered, meaning you have to have your member ID and baptism date.

 

 The bas**rds really are knuckiling down. A year ago that wasn't the case.

 

 

 

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This LDS doctrine is so 'out there' that I think most other churches and organizations just ignored us when we baptised their dead but thats all changing now...I remeber teaching this stuff as a missionary, I wish I could have taken a picture or two of some of the investigators faces when I tried to explain this mess... "what the hell are you talking about" kind of look...I guess my look was "uh...." pretty funny now...not so funny then...

 
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Grape Nephi:
beenthere:
Grape Nephi:

Anyone can go in and use the geneological libraries. I've even been in the local once since resigning.

 

 

 

Actually, I went a couple of weeks ago, and they told me that you can use the facilities to find your ancestry, but to see who's been baptised and what temple work, you have to be registered, meaning you have to have your member ID and baptism date.

 

 The bas**rds really are knuckiling down. A year ago that wasn't the case.

 

Always been that way, my ass. Obviously, the old lady missionary hadn't done much family history before getting called to the family history center.

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