General Conference dissonance

[alive]

I guess it is lucky I got on this message board while my husband and sons went to General priesthood meeting tonight. Seeing them all dressed up, so incredibly handsome (ok I'm a proud mother), and going off together, made me feel that I guess I just better quit fighting my culture, that it isn't such a bad thing, that it is pretty cool to see fathers and sons together doing something about spiritual belief, that otherwise they would all just be wasting their time on a Saturday night. And then my son was enthusiastically reporting to me the wonderful talks he heard this afternoon, about how men shouldn't look at women as sexual objects for their own pleasure, and I thought I'm glad that at least he is thinking about those kinds of issues.

Then I got on here and read the post about the church directing the content of funerals, the post and website about responding to FAIRS defense of the church as a noncult, and I'm right back where I started--seeing the problems that underlie the church system. I see some good, yes. And I admit I'm glad they aren't out getting drunk tonight. Still, the problems are just enormous and aren't going to go away just because my sons look like upstanding young Mormon priesthood holders tonight.

But I dare any of you to face these idealistic young faces (the ones here tonight are 30, 28, 24 and 20) and not feel a twinge of agony in being the one whom they view as deceived by worldy and/or satanic forces.

alive and ambivalent......

[free thinker]

But I dare any of you to face these idealistic young faces (the ones here tonight are 30, 28, 24 and 20) and not feel a twinge of agony in being the one whom they view as deceived by worldy and/or satanic forces.

alive and ambivalent.

This is a dare that I dont even need to consider. I would never make any move to disrupt their faith. And I am certain they cut an impressive figure. No doubt if I was their parent I would be duly proud.

But having said that. If one approached me some time alone and presented to me a discovery he had made about the difference between the official church history and that which objective historians present, I would be honest and forthcoming.

If he further asked me how I felt about my mission and current feelings about the church I would let him know that although the church does much good, I do not beleive it is the kingdom of god. If probed further I would provide what I consider my reasons.

In the end I would be honest if asked because I really think it is the best policy, but would not introduce it without being asked.

Alive I hope you know that no one here is ever going to object if you decide to maintain a fully LDS life. Flotsam does just that. We will be here for you no matter. Heck we even put up with why-me! :cool: Just a quick jab why-me.

I appreciate your ambivilance and enjoyed reading your post.

free thinker

[noodle]

I second free thinker's statement that no one here will object if you remain active. So many of us "feel your pain."

My RM son listened faithfully to conference today. I heard bits and pieces as I went about my daily chores. I couldn't help but think of how differently we must be "hearing" the talks.

I attended a funeral last week, and Brigham Madsen, a friend of the deceased, was one of the speakers. He was incredibly articulate, and spoke directly about his deceased friend who had been excommunicated from the LDS church. I came home and googled him because I was so impressed with what he had to say. Here is a link about him: http://www.utlm.org/navaboutus.htm

I'll pull a quote from him that really hits home for me. Here goes:

"Some people are able to compartmentalize logic and reason from supernatural and spiritual beliefs. I do not have that facility," Madsen admits in outlining his philosophy of life. "I do not criticize the compartmentalizers. Many of them are highly intelligent and, in other respects, have high criteria for truth; I, however, . . . cannot surrender my independence and rationality to such a process but must follow the road where reason and evidence take me. I have only my mind and its tools to reveal reality to me. . . . I cannot deny myself the opportunity of venturing into the unknown where there may be a God with 'body, parts, and passions' or, more likely, nothing but this temporal life where all of us should be helping each other in the 'pursuit of happiness' toward a good life in the present."

Alive, I really enjoy your posts. I hope that you will continue to find friendship here. Remember that we all learn from each other.

mamajama

[helemon]

I attended a funeral last week, and Brigham Madsen, a friend of the deceased, was one of the speakers.

Is he related to Truman G. Madsen?

[alive]

Alive I hope you know that no one here is ever going to object if you decide to maintain a fully LDS life. Flotsam does just that. We will be here for you no matter. Heck we even put up with why-me! :cool: Just a quick jab why-me.

I appreciate your ambivilance and enjoyed reading your post.


What you say means a lot to me. It always feels like there is no place I can be fully myself. Thank you.

free thinker[/QUOTE]

[alive]

[
mamajama[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing that about Madsen and for the kind words.

One can't help but admire integrity. My cousin who has left the church is actively working to try and, in effect, bring it down. His children have all followed him out of the church, but one. Even he though, who believes rather overpoweringly that the church is fundamentally evil at its core, seems to have a certain respect for his active daughter and does not try to antagonize her beyond a few occasional jokes (that she probably doesn't find funny.

[why me]

I guess it is lucky I got on this message board while my husband and sons went to General priesthood meeting tonight. Seeing them all dressed up, so incredibly handsome (ok I'm a proud mother), and going off together, made me feel that I guess I just better quit fighting my culture, that it isn't such a bad thing, that it is pretty cool to see fathers and sons together doing something about spiritual belief, that otherwise they would all just be wasting their time on a Saturday night. And then my son was enthusiastically reporting to me the wonderful talks he heard this afternoon, about how men shouldn't look at women as sexual objects for their own pleasure, and I thought I'm glad that at least he is thinking about those kinds of issues.

Then I got on here and read the post about the church directing the content of funerals, the post and website about responding to FAIRS defense of the church as a noncult, and I'm right back where I started--seeing the problems that underlie the church system. I see some good, yes. And I admit I'm glad they aren't out getting drunk tonight. Still, the problems are just enormous and aren't going to go away just because my sons look like upstanding young Mormon priesthood holders tonight.

But I dare any of you to face these idealistic young faces (the ones here tonight are 30, 28, 24 and 20) and not feel a twinge of agony in being the one whom they view as deceived by worldy and/or satanic forces.

alive and ambivalent......
You have your 'truth' and your husband and son have their 'truth'. If you all can respect eachother's truths I can see no problem in the matter. Who is to say that they are wrong and who is to say that you (edited after Helemon's below post) are wrong.

If you son is a great kid and the church is helping him navigate through life...that is a good thing. Likewise for your husband. And if you have found a different way and your way is helping you through ife...that is a good thing also.

Goodness is what goodness does....try not to think too much...just appreciate what you have...two people who love you more than life. And perhaps there is no greater good than that aspect of your life...thanks for the post...

[helemon]

Who is to say that they are wrong and who is to say that they are wrong.


Interesting Freudian typo there. It sounds like you think they are the ones who are wrong. :D

[firefly]

Alive, your posts really resonate with me. My teenage son went to the priesthood session last night with a few of his friends. They had already been planning a sleepover and then plans gradually evolved to include conference. Talk about mixed feelings.

My son is such a great kid, and delightfully impossible to pigeonhole. He has hair to his shoulders and looks like a skate punk. He's also a straight A student. His friends don't fall into any particular catagory except that they are smart and interesting - and for the most part, Mormon. (At a HS where Mos are a minority.) This is the kid who reorganized his entire schedule the day before school started so it would include release-time seminary.

Interesting twist on teen rebellion, eh?

[hitchiker]

I guess it is lucky I got on this message board while my husband and sons went to General priesthood meeting tonight. Seeing them all dressed up, so incredibly handsome (ok I'm a proud mother), and going off together, made me feel that I guess I just better quit fighting my culture, that it isn't such a bad thing, that it is pretty cool to see fathers and sons together doing something about spiritual belief, that otherwise they would all just be wasting their time on a Saturday night. And then my son was enthusiastically reporting to me the wonderful talks he heard this afternoon, about how men shouldn't look at women as sexual objects for their own pleasure, and I thought I'm glad that at least he is thinking about those kinds of issues.

Then I got on here and read the post about the church directing the content of funerals, the post and website about responding to FAIRS defense of the church as a noncult, and I'm right back where I started--seeing the problems that underlie the church system. I see some good, yes. And I admit I'm glad they aren't out getting drunk tonight. Still, the problems are just enormous and aren't going to go away just because my sons look like upstanding young Mormon priesthood holders tonight.

But I dare any of you to face these idealistic young faces (the ones here tonight are 30, 28, 24 and 20) and not feel a twinge of agony in being the one whom they view as deceived by worldy and/or satanic forces.

alive and ambivalent......i have five children also , they have all gone inactive , one married a non member , two others live with non members to whom they are not married the youngest two are still single but go to partys and do all the things kids do , thinking of all the problems that go with all that , do i wish they were all fully active and dressed in suits ect , you would think that every good parent would say yes , but actually i am glad they are not , thats because i see that the suits and the model behaviour comes at a price , the price is that they will never be free to actually think for themselves , all their thinking is being done for them , both by parents and the church , i also believe , that the true knowing of god is something that can only be exsperienced when a person is 100 per cent living according to there own dictates , thats why i think that forced coercion in any faith can be extremley damaging in the long term , i would love to see my children smiling and well dressed , filled with happiness as well , the fact that they engaged with non members is partly because of the unhappyness they themselves felt within mormon confines , especially those judging looks and isolation from lds peers who considered themselves better , one of the problems with a legalistic society like mormons , is that it breeds contempt for people who struggle to keep those standards , LDS communitys are extremley judgemental of each other , its the most practiced part of the religeon , looking sideways and down

[why me]

Interesting Freudian typo there. It sounds like you think they are the ones who are wrong. :D
Did I write that? Go back and read my post again...I think that you were mistaken.... :D

Ah....the power of editing at work! :D

[flotsam]

You have your 'truth' and your husband and son have their 'truth'. If you all can respect eachother's truths I can see no problem in the matter. Who is to say that they are wrong and who is to say that you (edited after Helemon's below post) are wrong.

If you son is a great kid and the church is helping him navigate through life...that is a good thing. Likewise for your husband. And if you have found a different way and your way is helping you through ife...that is a good thing also.
.

Well, except that President Faust gave this talk at the priesthood session about people who left the Church and how miserable their lives were afterward - how they died in terrible accidents at young ages. The message was pretty clear to me: it's the Church or damnation.

He was pretty clear on the subject. He started the talk by telling us that we MUST stay in harmony with the bretheren.

So, it's a nice sentiment, Why_me, but if alive's sons took literally what was said to in the priesthood session of conference, they're probably pretty worried about the state of her soul. There's no room for I'm OK you're OK.

Of course, these are my own prejudices talking. My wife and I can listen to the same talk and come away with completely different interpretations of it.

[helemon]

Well, except that President Faust gave this talk at the priesthood session about people who left the Church and how miserable their lives were afterward - how they died in terrible accidents at young ages. The message was pretty clear to me: it's the Church or damnation.

He was pretty clear on the subject. He started the talk by telling us that we MUST stay in harmony with the bretheren.


Was this his priesthood talk or during general conference? I am getting the strong sense that they are very scared about the number of people leaving the church given these thinly veiled threats! It makes me sick that they would stoop so low! I guess they learned a lesson from the 2004 campaign! Fear mongering works to keep people in line! :Puking

In response to these undocumented unconfirmable stories I think the PoMos and ExMos need to start making themselves more visible. Only then can members realize that it is possible to leave the church and live happy lives.

[flotsam]

Was this his priesthood talk or during general conference? \.

It was the priesthood session. I always go to those because it's where the weirdest stuff happens.

[papa]

leave the church, die a horrible death at a young age? That kind of talk is despicable and immoral in the extreme. I agree that it smacks of their desperation.

[why me]

Well, except that President Faust gave this talk at the priesthood session about people who left the Church and how miserable their lives were afterward - how they died in terrible accidents at young ages. The message was pretty clear to me: it's the Church or damnation.

He was pretty clear on the subject. He started the talk by telling us that we MUST stay in harmony with the bretheren.

So, it's a nice sentiment, Why_me, but if alive's sons took literally what was said to in the priesthood session of conference, they're probably pretty worried about the state of her soul. There's no room for I'm OK you're OK.

Of course, these are my own prejudices talking. My wife and I can listen to the same talk and come away with completely different interpretations of it.
But this is almost exactly what I meant. We have both sides worrying about the other. If people can learn to learn respect for another person's truth much worrying could be avoided.

It seems to me that alive worries over her family because of what they believe in. She has an understanding of her truth about church history etc. And perhaps her family worries about her because of her standing in the church. But acceptance can go a long way in respecting eachother beliefs and understandings about values and life directions. Less worry and more understanding can go a long way.

What is important is to live by example...I don't see a great conflict in values in alive's case...just a conflict in belief.

[aether]

But this is almost exactly what I meant. We have both sides worrying about the other. If people can learn to learn respect for another person's truth much worrying could be avoided.

I think that's kind of a given. This isn't just a problem between Mormons and post-Mormons, but also between Republicans and Democrats, homosexuals and heterosexists, men and women, not to mention all the thousands of differing other religions. People in general need to learn how to communicate, not just us Post-Mo's and not just the TBM's.

[peter_mary]

Alive (and delightfully Ambivalent :) ),

Conference is one of those times when the very best of the Church is on proud display, and if you don't scratch that lovely veneer, it all seems so good.

We were driving home from Yellowstone this weekend, and we flipped on Conference for the last 40 minutes of the last session, and I THINK we were listening to Deiter Uchdorf, the recently sustained apostle from Germany, but we missed the introduction. I'm pretty sure that's who we were listening to.

Anyway, he talked at length about the Church in Europe, including in Russia, and he told a compelling story about a Russian Mission President, who has been a member for only 7 years, and who was a Branch President after only 1 MONTH! (I think...I was also being a smart-ass, I might have missed his exact words...) Anyway, when he talked about interviewing this President, and asking him how he managed to do all of this with so little background, he told a deeply compelling story about feeling the loving embrace of the Mormon family, and genuinely feeling as if he'd "come home." Listening to it, you can't help but feel a yearning for that same degree of participation, that same degree of belonging, of knowing as others know that you have finally come home.

It was beautiful.

And then you scratch the surface.

During his talk, he talked about the numbers of saints in Europe, but the even greater number of saints who emigrated to the United States. Then he said, (and I'm paraphrasing, 'cause I didn't take notes...I was driving...), "There were several reasons why the early European Saints came to America. They were seeking improved economic opportunity. They wanted the closeness of others who shared their beliefs. And they wanted access to the Temples."

And then he moved on, giving a beautiful talk.

I was stunned! In his graceful, lilting, slightly germanic prose, he lied to everyone who was listening! Maybe "Lied" is too strong a word, but he re-shaped reality for the purpose of making it more palitable to your average Mormon, or anyone else who might be listening.

The listening congregation who doesn't study Mormonism as a culture just hears a moving, emotional, persuasive talk about the fellowship of Mormons. But what I heard was manipulation of the masses to keep them from understanding. Because I know, as does anyone else who has studied the early Church, that the European saints were being RUSHED to Zion, gathered to safety before the second coming of Christ, so that they would be saved with the rest of the Church, in Jackson County, Missouri, when Christ's immanent return occurred. They were desperate to get here before they were burned! And that fever was fed by none other than Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Brigham Young, and the rest of the gang. It wasn't until Wilford Woodruff that the Church finally gave up on it's millenialistic frenzy, and settled into a more traditional sense of, "not knowing when the second coming would occur, so might as well stay put until we tell you otherwise."

But that's not the story that Dieter Uchdork wanted to tell. So he made one up, and passed it of as a feel-good anecdote of Church unity.

Sigh...

Scratch off that pretty layer of paint, and you see the mess that roils and seeths beneath. I agree, those shiny, bright, optimistic faces are compelling. The sad truth is, bright, shiny, optimistic faces can be found selling Hare Krishna materials, the Moonies, evangelism, and Amway. Lots of us feel safe and secure and even belonging in our delusions...

It's confusing at a deeply psychological/sociological level, isn't it?

Peter_Mary

[helemon]

Anyway, he talked at length about the Church in Europe, including in Russia, and he told a compelling story about a Russian Mission President, who has been a member for only 7 years, and who was a Branch President after only 1 MONTH! (I think...I was also being a smart-ass, I might have missed his exact words...) Anyway, when he talked about interviewing this President, and asking him how he managed to do all of this with so little background, he told a deeply compelling story about feeling the loving embrace of the Mormon family, and genuinely feeling as if he'd "come home." Listening to it, you can't help but feel a yearning for that same degree of participation, that same degree of belonging, of knowing as others know that you have finally come home.


Hahaha. Sounds like the FPR that surrounds Monson. He was a branch president at like 30 or something. They act as if this is some proof of the person being a spiritual giant when more likely they were the only priesthood holder in the area willing or able to take the post.

[alive]

ou have...two people who love you more than life. And perhaps there is no greater good than that aspect of your life...thanks for the post...

Thank you, Why Me. I agree about the people being the most important thing. But if I didn't think so much, every day, all day, (ok maybe not all day, just most of it!) then I wouldn't be in this dilemma. I don't know how to turn it off. I've read about people who completely compartmentalize, and, in fact, I watch my TBM sons do it all the time. All they have to do is turn on the TV and they're in a different world. In fact, I've been told that men can compartmentalize more easily than women can?

[alive]

Alive, your posts really resonate with me. My teenage son went to the priesthood session last night with a few of his friends. They had already been planning a sleepover and then plans gradually evolved to include conference. Talk about mixed feelings.

My son is such a great kid, and delightfully impossible to pigeonhole. He has hair to his shoulders and looks like a skate punk. He's also a straight A student. His friends don't fall into any particular catagory except that they are smart and interesting - and for the most part, Mormon. (At a HS where Mos are a minority.) This is the kid who reorganized his entire schedule the day before school started so it would include release-time seminary.

Interesting twist on teen rebellion, eh?

He sounds like a great guy!

[alive]

[QUOTE=flotsam]Well, except that President Faust gave this talk at the priesthood session about people who left the Church and how miserable their lives were afterward - how they died in terrible accidents at young ages. The message was pretty clear to me: it's the Church or damnation.

He was pretty clear on the subject. He started the talk by telling us that we MUST stay in harmony with the bretheren.

Exactly....the tragedy of someone leaving the church is devastating, worse than dying young, worse than anything. Any true believer must try to bring the lost sheep back into the fold. If they are smart they do this by not offending and by being patient, loving and friendly. But there is always a deep-down agenda working.

This has got to be one of the real problems of fundamentalist and absolute belief.

[alive]

Alive (and delightfully Ambivalent :) ),

Conference is one of those times when the very best of the Church is on proud display, and if you don't scratch that lovely veneer, it all seems so good.

Scratch off that pretty layer of paint, and you see the mess that roils and seeths beneath. I agree, those shiny, bright, optimistic faces are compelling. The sad truth is, bright, shiny, optimistic faces can be found selling Hare Krishna materials, the Moonies, evangelism, and Amway. Lots of us feel safe and secure and even belonging in our delusions...

It's confusing at a deeply psychological/sociological level, isn't it?

Peter_Mary

Yes, exactly! Why does religion have the power to get someone to commit a terrorist act or to give up two years of their life? The compelling nature of belief (read knowledge in the case of Mormonism) is frightening and but often attractive.

But often there are good people who live it to their core and don't have a shiny veneer. I think the average member is a pretty good person who genuinely wants to help his/her neighbor. And GB Hinckley gave one of the best talks I've heard about forgiviness on Sunday morning. He was reading a newspaper column (someone else's words). One could even interpret his talk as anti-war.

But I know, there is also is controlling, scary power thing that is part of the whole package.

[flotsam]

But often there are good people who live it to their core and don't have a shiny veneer. I think the average member is a pretty good person who genuinely wants to help his/her neighbor. And GB Hinckley gave one of the best talks I've heard about forgiviness on Sunday morning. He was reading a newspaper column (someone else's words). One could even interpret his talk as anti-war.

But I know, there is also is controlling, scary power thing that is part of the whole package.

This is what fascinates me about Mormonism, and about religion in general. That baffling paradox. Religion harbors both saints and sinners (it's the saints we have to be careful of), terrorists and philanthropists. Why is it so good for some people, and so devestating for others?

It seems there's a real power there. And I know I don't understand it.

[helemon]

Why is it so good for some people, and so devestating for others?

It seems there's a real power there. And I know I don't understand it.

Religion provides people with a set of rules to live by. This provides the community with a common understanding of how to behave and how to expect others to behave. This facilitates social interaction. The trouble is that these rules must make certain behaviors or ideas unacceptable which then pushes a certain percentage of population outside the group leading to the devestation you mention.

In order to preserve its identity and claim on having "ultimate truth" the religion must attack those who are unwilling to follow the rules it claims apply to all human beings. If you are someone who has no trouble following the rules then the religion can be a big comfort because it fits your world view. If you are someone who disagrees with or cannot follow the rules then the rules and judgements become devestating.

[miss taken]

[QUOTE=flotsam]Well, except that President Faust gave this talk at the priesthood session about people who left the Church and how miserable their lives were afterward - how they died in terrible accidents at young ages. The message was pretty clear to me: it's the Church or damnation.

He was pretty clear on the subject. He started the talk by telling us that we MUST stay in harmony with the bretheren.

Exactly....the tragedy of someone leaving the church is devastating, worse than dying young, worse than anything. Any true believer must try to bring the lost sheep back into the fold. If they are smart they do this by not offending and by being patient, loving and friendly. But there is always a deep-down agenda working.

This has got to be one of the real problems of fundamentalist and absolute belief.



Did Faust really say all that...that is so sad. It's the fear/reward thing again.

I can honestly say that when I first left the church I thought I was going to be completely and utterly damned and all these bad things would happen to me, and I would become an evil person in the grips of Satan.
I really, really thought that.

It didn't happen. Here I am 10 to 15 years down the line. I have a beautiful family, a good decent honest life. I am married to a good decent honest man who doesn't happen to be and probably never will be LDS. My career has flourished, I have travelled and travelled, and hope to continue to do so. My life is full and enriched.

Why does Faust have to do all that scaremongering. Why. It upsets me. Sorry.

Mary

[helemon]

Why does Faust have to do all that scaremongering. Why. It upsets me. Sorry.

Mary

Because they are scared!! :eek:

[peter_mary]

Because they are scared!! :eek:
You know, I think that about sums it up.

And it's been this way since the days of Joseph. Fear of "everything that isn't the church" is as important in the toolbox of Church leaders as a hammer in the toolbox of the carpenter.

Actually, using fear as a hammer is probably a good analogy...

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

You know, I think that about sums it up.

And it's been this way since the days of Joseph. Fear of "everything that isn't the church" is as important in the toolbox of Church leaders as a hammer in the toolbox of the carpenter.

Actually, using fear as a hammer is probably a good analogy...

Peter_Mary


I went on the General Conference site to check out Faust's words, but couldn't find them, can someone direct me???

MAry

[helemon]

I went on the General Conference site to check out Faust's words, but couldn't find them, can someone direct me???

MAry

They were in the priesthood session. No women allowed. :slap:

But you can read the notes I posted about the priesthood session that someone over on RfM took on the talk.

the things that prophets tell us now are essential, we need the repetition
STAY LOYAL TO THE BRETHREN
Darkness, pain, & msyery will follow if you stop believing the brethren.

You may not always like the counsel that the brethren give you. Follow them anyway.

try not to question the counsel of bishops. Disrespect for ecclesiactic leaders leads to downfall. Look past their imperfections & obey them.

[helemon]

You know, I think that about sums it up.

And it's been this way since the days of Joseph. Fear of "everything that isn't the church" is as important in the toolbox of Church leaders as a hammer in the toolbox of the carpenter.

Actually, using fear as a hammer is probably a good analogy...

Peter_Mary

I was listening to HP's The Half Blood Prince yesterday. Dubmledoore was talking about how all tyrants fear the people that they are trying to control. And that often it through the tyrants own overly controling actions that they place on their followers which end up creating the person or persons who will eventually over throw them.

Similarly in Star Wars I think it was Princess Lea who told Darth Vader that the tighter he tried to control the various star systems the more there would be that slip through his grasp.

I think we are starting to see something similar here. The more the church tries to use scare tactics to make people obey. The more they try to dictate the trivial aspects of members lives like how many earings they can wear or what type of shoes are acceptable. The more they try to control what books members read by discrediting, disfellowshipping, and exing their authors. The more people will start saying WTF? and leave, thus hastening the destruction of the church.

Makes you anxious for BKP to take the helm as prophet doesn't it! :D

[miss taken]

I was listening to HP's The Half Blood Prince yesterday. Dubmledoore was talking about how all tyrants fear the people that they are trying to control. And that often it through the tyrants own overly controling actions that they place on their followers which end up creating the person or persons who will eventually over throw them.

Similarly in Star Wars I think it was Princess Lea who told Darth Vader that the tighter he tried to control the various star systems the more there would be that slip through his grasp.

I think we are starting to see something similar here. The more the church tries to use scare tactics to make people obey. The more they try to dictate the trivial aspects of members lives like how many earings they can wear or what type of shoes are acceptable. The more they try to control what books members read by discrediting, disfellowshipping, and exing their authors. The more people will start saying WTF? and leave, thus hastening the destruction of the church.

Makes you anxious for BKP to take the helm as prophet doesn't it! :D

I think my favourite quote from a current GA is the one you posted about people having the god given right to change their mind about religion. What a difference between that and Faust's inference here.

Mary

[miss taken]

How can we have freedom of religion if we are not free to compare honestly, to choose wisely, and to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience? While searching for the truth, we must be free to change our mind—even to change our religion—in response to new information and inspiration. One’s religion is not imposed by others. It is not predetermined. It is a very personal and sacred choice, nestled at the very core of human dignity.” (Freedom to Do and to Be, Russell M. Nelson, International Scientific and Practical Conference "Religious Freedom: Transition and Globalization", Kiev, Ukraine, Thursday, 27 May 2004)
What a wonderful sentiment. I hope that he meant it, and that he meant it go both ways. I interpret it that way.
Mary


Sigh...I just want to keep repeating that one again and again and again and again......

[helemon]

What a wonderful sentiment. I hope that he meant it, and that he meant it go both ways. I interpret it that way.
Mary


Sigh...I just want to keep repeating that one again and again and again and again......

I think he meant it as a way to get people to be more willing to look at the Mormon religion.

[miss taken]

Faust's sentiments remind me of the GA that came to our Stake Conference and told us (It could have been the youth/young adults - I can't remember) that our free agency had gone once we were baptized. Once you have a testimony (or think you have one) that's it. You can leave, but you cannot choose the consequences of leaving.

I don't remember leaving that room enpowered, rather I felt stripped of dignity.

I had come to believe, but I had no room to question the assumption that I was correct in my belief.

No turning back without dire consequences.

Mary

[miss taken]

I think he meant it as a way to get people to be more willing to look at the Mormon religion.

Since he doesn't say that, and since he was talking in a forum on the freedom of religious choice, I would like to take him at his word and have that lead me out as well as in the LDS church. :)

I am assuming it was a non mormon event????

Mary

[noodle]

Mary, it looks like (at least to me) that you will be able to read the conference transcripts online (including the priesthood session) on Thursday. The following statement is from lds.org.

Transcripts of Conference on the Internet
• English transcripts will be available by the Thursday following conference.

On Thursday (I'm guessing Utah's Thursday ;) ) you should be able to click here and read the transcript.

http://lds.org/conference/sessions/display/0,5239,49-1-559,00.html

mamajama

[miss taken]

Mary, it looks like (at least to me) that you will be able to read the conference transcripts online (including the priesthood session) on Thursday. The following statement is from lds.org.

Transcripts of Conference on the Internet
• English transcripts will be available by the Thursday following conference.

On Thursday (I'm guessing Utah's Thursday ;) ) you should be able to click here and read the transcript.

http://lds.org/conference/sessions/display/0,5239,49-1-559,00.html

mamajama

Thanks mamajama. It will be interesting to read his sermon in full.

[silverfox]

Well, except that President Faust gave this talk at the priesthood session about people who left the Church and how miserable their lives were afterward - how they died in terrible accidents at young ages. The message was pretty clear to me: it's the Church or damnation.

He was pretty clear on the subject. He started the talk by telling us that we MUST stay in harmony with the bretheren.

So, it's a nice sentiment, Why_me, but if alive's sons took literally what was said to in the priesthood session of conference, they're probably pretty worried about the state of her soul. There's no room for I'm OK you're OK.

Of course, these are my own prejudices talking. My wife and I can listen to the same talk and come away with completely different interpretations of it.

Yikes! What about active members who die young? :eek:

And to think people fall for this crap. :Crazy:

[silverfox]

Once you have a testimony (or think you have one) that's it. You can leave, but you cannot choose the consequences of leaving.

Mary

My TBM FIL tried to use this logic on me. That I would have to suffer the consequences regardless. I told him that the church or whomever can

BRING IT ON!!!!!