Mormon Self Pity

[Fredl]

Had a real fine talk with my son yesterday about Seminary. It amazes me how he hangs in there with perfect attendance the past two years and so far this year. Anyway, since I've let him know that he doesn't have to go to please me, he's been a lot more candid about his experience there.

Seems that he (and pretty much the friends he talks frankly with) is pretty unhappy with the class this year. He has a teacher that is pretty uninteresting and teaches the class in a very rote, mechanical way. I asked him whether she encourages class discussion and he said yes, but it just didn't happen. As we talked further, it was clear that although she probably thought she was, it was clear that she was discouraging it severely. The way she did it was by asking "closed" questions that had only one correct answer that she, of course knew and which had the effect of making everyone else in the class feel inadequate. Of course they didnt want to offer comments.

Anyway, as we talked about what he didn't like, he said, "Dad, do you remember how we talked about people in the church who insist the Mormons are subject to so much harsh treatment? Well, one thing that I don't like is that she's always asking us for examples from our own lives of how we or other Mormons we know are mistreated because of standing up for the truth and what's right. Actually, I'd like to tell her that I've never seen any of that and, from what I've seen, the Mormon kids at school are highly respected and are treated very well. I don't say anything because I know she wouldn't like it. The more "spiritual" kids seem to agree with her but I don't".

I've run into a lot of this, but I always speak up and say consistently I've seen virtually none of this. Maybe it was widespread 120 years ago, but in today's world, the Mormons are quite well respected.

Generally when I say this I get instant agreement, but I think this has more to do with the Mormon propensity to be agreeable than with any shift of paradigm.

Fred

[dogzilla]

I think it's the propaganda that the Rest of the World sees. Only TBMs and Postmos see underneath the shiny exterior that Families really Aren't Forever at all. Not that eternal families aren't encouraged, nay, that concept is shoved down your throat at every turn. It's just that, once you get inside, you see the hypocrasy in that statement. Families are forever as long as your family is white, upper middle class, with no homosexuals, no addiction/alcoholism, no abuse, no mixed race out-of-wedlock babies . . . .

I work with an evangelical fundie who was raised in India by missionaries. (Not Mormon, I dunno their denomination. Not sure it matters.) She's fascinated by the Mormons and whenever the subbject comes up, listens to me with rapt attention. She thinks FHE sounds like the neatest thing since sliced bread. She doesn't see the skeezy underbelly of the beast, so she thinks Mormons are all that and a bag of chips. Personally, I think modern Mormons would love it if lynching and tarring and feathering would come back. It would give them an excuse to cry persecution all the time.

:Crazy:

[peter_mary]

Anyway, as we talked about what he didn't like, he said, "Dad, do you remember how we talked about people in the church who insist the Mormons are subject to so much harsh treatment? Well, one thing that I don't like is that she's always asking us for examples from our own lives of how we or other Mormons we know are mistreated because of standing up for the truth and what's right. Actually, I'd like to tell her that I've never seen any of that and, from what I've seen, the Mormon kids at school are highly respected and are treated very well. I don't say anything because I know she wouldn't like it. The more "spiritual" kids seem to agree with her but I don't".

Fred
This is very interesting, and I would guess it ties in closely with Mormon Identity. I believe that shared suffering is a critical element to a sense of specialness in any religion, and subsequently, we believe we are at our most spiritual when we suffer. Why do Mormons love to recount the horrors of Haun's Mill and the extermination order? Because there was suffering. Why do they love to recount the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum, and the subsequent eviction from Illinois? Suffering. Why do we love and honor the pioneers and all they sacrificed to establish Zion? Suffering. Why do we revere those old polygamists who would rather go to jail than abandon their numerous wives? Suffering.

But something unfortunate happened this past century...the Mormons thrived! Now, there is hardly ANY suffering in happy valley (a credit to the industriousness of those busy bees in the land of Deseret), and with all the softness associated with good living comes a lack of community that comes to people who suffer together. Ever hear of "trauma bonding?"

This seminary teacher is simply repeating what you hear in Fast & Testimony meetings around the world...you are your most humble, and therefore most atuned to the spirit, when you suffer. When you suffer "at the hands of your enemies," all the better, because THEN you are suffering FOR your God, and what better way to show your love than to suffer? There are thousands of Muslim fundamentalists right now willing to offer their life, ultimate suffering, for the cause of their God.

Hmmm...sounds suspiciously like the atonement, doesn't it? Makes a person wonder which came first...the atonement of Jesus, demonstrating to the world that we are willing to suffer for that which/whom we love, or rather that we already recognized the ideal that we are willing to suffer for that which we love, and created the atonement story as the ultimate act of suffering because of love?

I think that when Mormons lose the persecution complex, they will cease to be Mormons.

Peter_Mary

[why me]

Actually, the perscution complex is alive and well because it exists. How can we deny the existence of perscution of the LDS church. Just look at the internet and the running battles against the book of mormon.

Yes, in public there is a certain amount of respect and benevolence but behind the scenes there is a war for the hearts and minds of LDS people. Even this site is a demonstration of such a war.

Of course, this is one aspect of the war. But there other aspects as well.

Every day the media spews out a message that is at opposite polls from the LDS message on how to live life. Each day, the LDS or christian principles are turned upside down as images claim that is okay to fornicate, lie, and steal. THe message coming off the media madness is eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. Is this not also perscution? I think so.

Yes, the LDS are persecuted and they are persecuted harshly and without sympathy of feelings. If I were Fred's son I would just have said: Every day the family is devalued...everyday the way of life that the church teaches is mocked and riducule through hands-on values that are on opposite polls of church teachings.

To be a mormon is to swim constantly upstream or to swim against the tide of the message that it is okay to sin because there is no god...there is only you, the human being.

[peter_mary]

Every day the media spews out a message that is at opposite polls from the LDS message on how to live life. Each day, the LDS or christian principles are turned upside down as images claim that is okay to fornicate, lie, and steal. THe message coming off the media madness is eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. Is this not also perscution? I think so.
I don't. Persecution, to me, is an active thing; something you do TO someone else. It means I'm acting in a manner that is deliberately and directly hostile to you. What you've described is something else entirely.

It's like this: If I'm living by my lonely little self in a little house in a neighborhood, and I like to keep things in my house quiet, and I like to sit and read the scriptures or watch the 700 Club or General Conference reruns, and I don't touch my privates except to pee, am I "persecuted" by my neighbors who are constantly having a party? Is their music, laughter, drinking, and making out "persecution" of my beliefs, or just "encountering" my beliefs in a way that is offensive to me? I think it's the latter, and the reason that's an important distinction is because the persecution comes from ME, not them. What you've described about Mormon persecution by the media is really just the Mormons taking offense to something that doesn't have anything to do with them! The world is not persecuting Mormons--Mormons just take offense to the world!

Yes, the LDS are persecuted and they are persecuted harshly and without sympathy of feelings.
Nah...it's strictly egocentric for Mormons to interpret everything that happens in their world as a personal affront. 'Fraid they're just not that important, Why_Me. The world is REALLY just blissfully bouncing along, nearly oblivious to the Mormons, because 99% of the world has never even HEARD of the Mormons, let alone met one that they could persecute.

Nope, I think Mormons carry a deep-seated persecution complex, and they interpret their world through those lenses, but aside from a few zealots, like John Ankerburg, nobody gives the Mormons a passing thought, let alone bothers to persecute them.

Peter_Mary

[why me]

I don't. Persecution, to me, is an active thing; something you do TO someone else. It means I'm acting in a manner that is deliberately and directly hostile to you. What you've described is something else entirely.

It's like this: If I'm living by my lonely little self in a little house in a neighborhood, and I like to keep things in my house quiet, and I like to sit and read the scriptures or watch the 700 Club or General Conference reruns, and I don't touch my privates except to pee, am I "persecuted" by my neighbors who are constantly having a party? Is their music, laughter, drinking, and making out "persecution" of my beliefs, or just "encountering" my beliefs in a way that is offensive to me? I think it's the latter, and the reason that's an important distinction is because the persecution comes from ME, not them. What you've described about Mormon persecution by the media is really just the Mormons taking offense to something that doesn't have anything to do with them! The world is not persecuting Mormons--Mormons just take offense to the world!


Nah...it's strictly egocentric for Mormons to interpret everything that happens in their world as a personal affront. 'Fraid they're just not that important, Why_Me. The world is REALLY just blissfully bouncing along, nearly oblivious to the Mormons, because 99% of the world has never even HEARD of the Mormons, let alone met one that they could persecute.

Nope, I think Mormons carry a deep-seated persecution complex, and they interpret their world through those lenses, but aside from a few zealots, like John Ankerburg, nobody gives the Mormons a passing thought, let alone bothers to persecute them.

Peter_Mary
If one believes in the gospel and sees the imaging of the world around them to be at opposite ends of the spectrum in how to live life...then I would call it persecution. This persecution of christian ethics just doesn't affect mormons but also other religious denominations too.

The persecution that members receive is behind their back through the internet and in literature. It goes like this: You see, Mormons, you are wrong. The book of mormon is not the word of god but rather a novel written by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was a lying crud who deserved his punishment. You see mormons you must follow us and believe our enlightened knowledge etc. etc. Did you know mormons that sidney ridgon wrote the book of mormon etc etc.

This is persecution only because it has gone on from the very beginning when the church was founded. Show me a year of peace that has been experienced by the mormon church? A year without the antis in the background?

I have often thought what if the Koran was put under such scrutiny as the BofM. Would it pass mustard? But you see...there are very few takers because people tend to value life, especially their own.

[darkslider]

What you have described is criticism. Not persecution.

Does it happen? Sure, but they are the more isolated cases that prove the exception rather than the rule.

Seriously, though, if I were to list out all the things in my life that are restricted by the religious influence of the Mormons. . . would I have grounds to claim I was persecuted?

By your definition, the Mormons are persecuting me by making it against the law to purchase alcohol on Sundays. The Mormons are persecuting me by shutting down the Public Transit system on Sundays.

The list goes on and on.

But, one can sit there with their persecution complex in full swing. . . or one can realize that there are people out there that have different views and move the **** on.

Why_Me, presenting an alternate point of view is not persecution. It is merely presenting an alternate point of view.

Edited to add: All of your examples are not, let me repeat this, NOT persecution. Your example are people taking offense to reality and bitching about it to make themselves feel better.

[Fredl]

To me, Why Me, you have made the case for why I prefer living in a Democracy to living in a Theocracy. Persecution, to me, is a mob arriving at my front door with the intention of Tar-and-feathering me, not a community that allows McDonalds to stay open seven days a week.

In this area, I spent several weeks a couple of years ago tracting with the missionaries. I did not have a single person say an unkind word to me, though I was probably causing many of the people whose door I knocked on at least a mild inconvenience. Most people we called on were willing to engage us briefly in conversational pleasantries. A few were a little abrpt, mostly because they were busy with something that needed their attention. In talking with our missionaries, I find that it is really very unusual to encounter the least discourtesy.

In school, all my kids' friends are aware they are Mormon. They are both very popular and have never encountered any sort of prejudice.

Now, it is true that neither my wife nor I nor our children take a stance of moral superiority in our dealings with the people of our community, nor do we try to push our values on anybody else. I suppose if we did so, we could, indeed, find ourselves increasingly less popular.

But then, of course, maybe if we were practicing the "True Faith in these Latter Days" that's exactly what we would be doing and our lack of persecution just proves one more time what p*** poor Mormons we are.

Fred

[peter_mary]

Persecution, to me, is <snip> a community that allows McDonalds to stay open seven days a week.

Fred
THAT'S Persecution, right there. McDonalds? Ouch...NOW I'm suffering!

:D

Peter_Mary

[lunaverse]

I'm going to repeat what others have said. Having your *ideas* criticized is NOT persecution. Having your doctrine attacked is NOT persecution. Having other people express their view and live their own lives as they see fit (even if it is by making a movie with sex and violence and gay people in it) is NOT persecution.

Having your own person attacked for believing those things *is*. This includes everything from being snubbed or teased, to being given fewer rights, to being thrown in jail, to being tarred and feathered and shot like in the old days.

And I honestly got more "persecution" by being an intelligent girl in a Mormon crowd than I *ever* got from the never-mo crowd for being Mormon.

I have been snubbed, teased, ditched, shoved, poked, betrayed, not invited to parties, not asked out on dates, laughed at, and gossipped about -- not because I was Mormon, but because I was intelligent, socially awkward, and female.

Right now, my gay friends are being persecuted because they are not given the same rights as straight couples -- they are not allowed to see their loved ones in hospitals, counted as dependents, receive tax breaks, or receive spousal insurance benefits. They are also thought of as child molesters, mentally ill, evil, and hurricane-causers.

People who want to spread their philosophical ideals and humor on the airwaves are fined hundreds of thousands of dollars by the FCC. Yet it shouldn't matter if their ideas are "unChristian", or that some people think it's filth -- just as they choose not to enter a church, Christians can choose not to turn that station on when those people are broadcasting. They are also being persecuted.

People who believe a traditional herbal medicine can relieve them of the painful symptoms of MS and cancer are now being put IN JAIL for their crime of wanting to relieve their unimaginable suffering. This is persecution.

People who worship strange gods and goddesses are constantly being rejected for federal religious benefits (like tax breaks), accussed of consorting with devils, disowned by their families, and blamed for crimes they did not commit. This is persecution.

I think the worst Mormons get these days is being laughed at from afar.

Luna

[why me]

It is difficult to say what is persecution and what is criticism. There is a boundary between the two that when crossed takes on the other's meaning.

Dialogue and discussion are fine...even giving a critique of the other's beliefs and views is not persecution. But I think that persecution comes with tone and with intent. It comes with the word 'bashing' and not with the word discussion. The people outside temple square with signs that may be obcene are persecuting anothers faith in god. There is no other word for it.

Now I will admit the mormons are highly respected in communities throughout the world. I never implied that there was such a persecution taking place.

But if people need to defend their faith for hundreds of years and if people need to defend their book for hundreds of years I would call this persecution.

When I read the tone and intent of posters on certain websites, I would also call that persecution. There are many out there that take extreme pleasure in leading people out of the mormon faith and use every means necessary to do so. I would call that persecution also.

But yes dialogue with respect is not persecution...it becomes a learning experience.

I have not seen the koran so widely dissected and criticized on the internet by people who want to prove that book false.

But people are persecuted in different ways...but for mormons perhaps the real persecution comes from the airwaves as Christian values in general are turned upside down and the opposite of those values are turned right-side up.

[Fredl]

It is difficult to say what is persecution and what is criticism. There is a boundary between the two that when crossed takes on the other's meaning.



Well, I'm sure you have a point here but imho you're drawing a line that sure doesn't leave a lot of room for legitimate criticism. Or even different preferences in life style.

Personally, I happen to be a great admirer of President Bush. I think he's a whole lot smarter than many people give him credit for being and I have no particular objection for the religious metaphors he likes to speak in. I think his handling of the economy has been correct and his response to international terrorism and horrific governments appropriate.

Now I expect this statement will subject me to a storm of criticism including a lot of nean remarks about George W. Will this make me a victim of persecution? Well, I guess that will depend largely upon my response. Since it will consist largely of F*** you!. This simply is a confirmation of how stupid many if not most people are, I will, I'm sure, fail to qualify as a victim of persecution.

The Mormon persecution in America scarcely qualifies as such by world standards. If the Mormon faith had originated in, say, Iraq, Iran, pre WW2 Germany or many other places in the world it think it fair to say there would be no Postmormon.org because there wouldn't be any Mormons.

As I've said on another thread, I thank my Higher Power that I was raised thinking of myself as a regular White American with nobody to blame but myself for my failures. I feel quite sure that if I had been raised on an Indian Reservation, with everybody in America to blame, I surely would have been a collosal failure in life.

Yes, the more I think about it, persecution is as much the result of the "victims" interpretation of events as the aggressors.

Fred

[free thinker]

When the mormons shot women and children in cold blood in the Mountain Meadows. That was persecution!

Shooting them in the head at point blank range was persecution!

While men stood by close enough to hear the screams of women and children while they played a nonchalant game of horse shoes is persecution!


Taking advantage of young women in the name of god is persecution!

Destroying a printing press in Nauvoo is persecution!

Marrying another mans wife is persecution!

Saying that the catholic church is " the whore of all the earth" is persecution !

Claiming to be the only church on the face of the earth that has the lords approval is arrogant, demeaning and is definately persecution!

Withholding the highest sacraments of the church from men because of the color of their skin is persecution!

Shall I go on or is that enough?

When it comes to persecution mormons have always been able dish it out!




free thinker