How do you now see spiritual experiences you had as a Mormon?

[lsands]

There are several issues that were brought up in the thread on projection that I want to discuss more fully. I was so impressed with Daryl's post on this subject that I'm transferring it here to a new thread (hope you don't mind, Daryl), and expressing my own thoughts on this matter, while also asking for additional feedback from others.

Daryl said:
LSands,
Your post reminded me of an experience my wife had, and has never denied. Let me put that in context. We are both Ex, and have not a smiggin of doubt the Church is a massive con, BUT, she says that when she was doing work for the dead in the Temple, she heard a distinct 'Thank you' in a woman's voice .

My wife is not prone to flights of fancy of any sort, so this was hardly any wild wishfull thinking.

We have never felt a need to rationalise the experience. Like, where would you start, but one cannot deny an experience merely because it does not fit one's current paradigm.

One of my favourite authors has this to say, and I apply it to exactly this sort of experience:

"Branden: Don't deny or disown what you see or experience merely because you can't explain it, justify it, or fit it into some familiar frame-of-reference. Allow a large space in your psyche to accommodate ambiguity and uncertainty. Don't invent explanations prematurely just so you can tell yourself you have the universe all tied up in one neat package. Keep your eyes open, keep observing, and be confident that sooner or later the truth will appear to you, providing, of course, you live long enough. And if you don't, well, hasn't it been an interesting adventure anyway?"

Laraine:

I LOVE this quote. Who is Branden, BTW? As to my own experiece, from talking to a lot of exmos I've found that I'm somewhat unusual in that I had many "spiritual" experiences while in the Church that I still believe were authentic. In fact, it was my "spiritual experiences" that led me out of the Church! As I prayed and came to know Father/Mother/God better, I felt such unjudgemental love and support for my own authority that I could no longer submit to following anyone else. The Mormon version of God did not fit with my experience of God, so finally I left. (My concept of who/what God is has changed radically and is still evolving, but I'll save that for another thread.)

So I've had to look at what all of those experiences I had meant. This is how I've come to understand it:
God loves all of His/Her chldren and will communicate that to anyone who will open him/herself to that, EVEN to Mormons. Because I went to the temple seeking God, I found Him/Her there. Mormons are taught that these experiences prove the LDS church is true. I interpret them differently now: They prove that God loves me.
Only your wife can interpret her own experience about the voice. One possible take on it could be that her sincerity and desire to be of service to others---possibly even this woman----were noted and appreciated, even though we now believe that the ordinances themselves have no meaning.

Isn't life exciting now that the whole universe is open for our exploration?!!!
Laraine

[mutleydog]

So I've had to look at what all of those experiences I had meant. This is how I've come to understand it:
God loves all of His/Her chldren and will communicate that to anyone who will open him/herself to that, EVEN to Mormons. Because I went to the temple seeking God, I found Him/Her there. Mormons are taught that these experiences prove the LDS church is true. I interpret them differently now: They prove that God loves me.
Only your wife can interpret her own experience about the voice. One possible take on it could be that her sincerity and desire to be of service to others---possibly even this woman----were noted and appreciated, even though we now believe that the ordinances themselves have no meaning.

Isn't life exciting now that the whole universe is open for our exploration?!!!
Laraine[/QUOTE]

Laraine,

I would have to agree with you. I had many spiritual experiences when I was in the church, but I do not think it was because I was a church member that they happened. If I look back I can honestly say, that most of the experiences where in everyday contexts and could very well have happened to anyone in the same circumstances.

The first one that I really remember goes back a few years now.....my father was very ill......so I went for a blessing, not even mentioning my father. A few weeks later in the hospital as my father was dying I recalled the blessing.....it said "your fathers time is short and I am calling him home, but everything will be fine". I was shocked and quite overcome. I have no doubts that it was Heavenly Father talking to me, but I also have no doubts he would have communicated it to me in some other way. My fathers death was also very spiritual in other ways to........devasting.....but in some ways very beautiful. In his last few days, we would catch him waving into thin air and when asked about it, he just smiled and said, "its ok". I believe he could see spirit friends and family - he wasn't a member of the church....just humble, working man who liked his beer and his horse racing and a good ol' english cuppa. We experienced a spiritual moment like many other non-lds before us!

I have not lost my faith, but believe its a very personal thing. I have many small 'spiritual' moments now.....they aren't big flashes...but just wee acknowledgements that everythings ok and I am on the right track.

When I was coming out of the church, it was probably one of the most spiritual times in my life. I prayed, fasted.......etc etc.....and I knew without a doubt what I needed to do...leave and never look back. I knew I needed to be true to myself. I knew HF wanted me to as well......I had feelings of total peace. That feeling that I was doing the right thing and that I was loved for who I was without judgement was an amazing time. I can safely say, I never felt so sure about anything in my life........you do not need the church to have beautiful, spiritual experiences.......sometimes I look back at some of my temple experiences etc. and just squirm with the way I sometimes felt...trepedation, unsurety, sometimes even slight fear.......thats certainly not healthy experiences........

I will end my ramblings........ ;)

[free thinker]

So I've had to look at what all of those experiences I had meant. This is how I've come to understand it:
God loves all of His/Her chldren and will communicate that to anyone who will open him/herself to that, EVEN to Mormons. Because I went to the temple seeking God, I found Him/Her there. Mormons are taught that these experiences prove the LDS church is true. I interpret them differently now: They prove that God loves me.
Only your wife can interpret her own experience about the voice. One possible take on it could be that her sincerity and desire to be of service to others---possibly even this woman----were noted and appreciated, even though we now believe that the ordinances themselves have no meaning.

Isn't life exciting now that the whole universe is open for our exploration?!!!
Laraine

Laraine,

I would have to agree with you. I had many spiritual experiences when I was in the church, but I do not think it was because I was a church member that they happened. If I look back I can honestly say, that most of the experiences where in everyday contexts and could very well have happened to anyone in the same circumstances.

The first one that I really remember goes back a few years now.....my father was very ill......so I went for a blessing, not even mentioning my father. A few weeks later in the hospital as my father was dying I recalled the blessing.....it said "your fathers time is short and I am calling him home, but everything will be fine". I was shocked and quite overcome. I have no doubts that it was Heavenly Father talking to me, but I also have no doubts he would have communicated it to me in some other way. My fathers death was also very spiritual in other ways to........devasting.....but in some ways very beautiful. In his last few days, we would catch him waving into thin air and when asked about it, he just smiled and said, "its ok". I believe he could see spirit friends and family - he wasn't a member of the church....just humble, working man who liked his beer and his horse racing and a good ol' english cuppa. We experienced a spiritual moment like many other non-lds before us!

I have not lost my faith, but believe its a very personal thing. I have many small 'spiritual' moments now.....they aren't big flashes...but just wee acknowledgements that everythings ok and I am on the right track.

When I was coming out of the church, it was probably one of the most spiritual times in my life. I prayed, fasted.......etc etc.....and I knew without a doubt what I needed to do...leave and never look back. I knew I needed to be true to myself. I knew HF wanted me to as well......I had feelings of total peace. That feeling that I was doing the right thing and that I was loved for who I was without judgement was an amazing time. I can safely say, I never felt so sure about anything in my life........you do not need the church to have beautiful, spiritual experiences.......sometimes I look back at some of my temple experiences etc. and just squirm with the way I sometimes felt...trepedation, unsurety, sometimes even slight fear.......thats certainly not healthy experiences........

I will end my ramblings........ ;) [/QUOTE]


I had many spiritual experiences in the church, and have felt, as you have, a calming spirit reassuring me that leaving is the right thing to do. I have had moments lately that can only be described as TRANSCENDENT. Somtimes they just come out of nowhere, and others are in answer to prayers for peace. I do not know who/what God is anymore, but I feel and believe in a loving, unifying force for good. There is something TO leaving the mormon church, for those who are ready. I think it is a call to greater understanding!! This is what I FEEL in my heart.

This GREATER POWER draws no boundaries between us! It has no prejudice !
No personal agenda!

It is a beckoning voice calling us to greater heights, and limitless learning!
It is LOVE!!

Free Thinker

[Jeff_Ricks]

I had many spiritual experiences in the church, and have felt, as you have, a calming spirit reassuring me that leaving is the right thing to do. I have had moments lately that can only be described as TRANSCENDENT. Somtimes they just come out of nowhere, and others are in answer to prayers for peace. I do not know who/what God is anymore, but I feel and believe in a loving, unifying force for good. There is something TO leaving the mormon church, for those who are ready. I think it is a call to greater understanding!! This is what I FEEL in my heart.

This GREATER POWER draws no boundaries between us! It has no prejudice !
No personal agenda!

It is a beckoning voice calling us to greater heights, and limitless learning!
It is LOVE!!

Free Thinker

Cool. I like that! Thanks.

Jeff

[silverfox]

Due to lack of time I admit I didn't read in depth the previous posts. (I hate that work is sooo busy these days!!!) But wanted to throw in this.....

As a Mo I felt MY spiritual promptings and experiences were more valid than my never mo friends/family. I allowed that value to be placed on MY experiences. I magnified their validity and importance and uniqueness.

My brother is pentacost, went to college to be a minister, etc, etc. He is a faithful Christian and has a deep love for God. When I was a Mo he shared some very personal spiritual experiences with me in which I did not appreciate until my exit from the church.

I was raised baptist and had some very personal spiritual experinces that I can't deny. But when I joined the Mo church and asked why I experienced such deep spiritual experiences as a member of another supposedly UNTRUE church I was told it was Satan trying to make me believe what I had was real and that I was praying improperly so I was getting improper answers to my prayers. WTF????

How did I ever fall for this crap?

[peter_mary]

As to my own experiece, from talking to a lot of exmos I've found that I'm somewhat unusual in that I had many "spiritual" experiences while in the Church that I still believe were authentic. In fact, it was my "spiritual experiences" that led me out of the Church! As I prayed and came to know Father/Mother/God better, I felt such unjudgemental love and support for my own authority that I could no longer submit to following anyone else.

Laraine

Here's my take, and I claim NO special knowledge, only an opinion (of which I have no shortage! :) )

I believe that our brains are remarkable in the manner in which they do their jobs, and ONE of those jobs is keeping our anxiety at manageable levels. We are inter-dependent creatures by design, and so we are in constant need of reassurance that we are accepted by the community...it ensures our very survival. There IS no higher form of acceptance than that of TOTAL acceptance, which can only be offered in the context of "God." If we can know we are accepted by God, then we have achieved what no mere mortal can--ultimate acceptance. And in obtaining that ultimate acceptance, we can assuage our ultimate anxiety, that not only are we accepted in this life, but also in the life to come.

That is powerful stuff. Subsequently, I think those with a penchant for spiritual seaking devote a significant quantity of gray-matter in obtaining that assurance. In the process, we find ourselves relating certain events in such a way that they satisfy that yearning for ultimate acceptance. What our brains are ALSO good at doing is filtering out anything that is simply "life detritus," in other words, the mundane "everything else" that makes up the vast majority of our lives that doesn't seem to point to any kind of ultimate acceptance at all. You never hear people bear witness to all the things they did that day that meant nothing...only the one thing that month or year or decade that could, with some interpretation, rationalization, re-thinking, etc. be interpreted as something "important" in a spiritual sense. That's why I posted that thread, "Story (Long Post) at:

http://www.post-mormons.com/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=49

It was a moment in which I was atuned to all the mundane things that our brains filter because it doesn't serve that psychological purpose of obtaining necessary assurance of ultimate acceptance.

So for me, I take a pretty practical approach to spiritual experiences. I believe they are a function of our subconcious mind intersecting with our subconscious desire at a point in space in which an event can be configured in such a way to allow our brains to make us feel good. I suppose that makes a me stick-in-the-mud, and I am TOTALLY open to other possibilities...it's just not been my personal experience.

Paul

[lsands]

"I believe they are a function of our subconcious mind intersecting with our subconscious desire at a point in space in which an event can be configured in such a way to allow our brains to make us feel good. I suppose that makes a me stick-in-the-mud, and I am TOTALLY open to other possibilities...it's just not been my personal experience."
Paul

Dear Paul,

So is what you're saying, in a delicate way, is that I feel anxiety and then manufacture experieces/feelings to mitigate that anxiety and call it God?

I have been hesitant to share my experiences of "God" here (actually in most exmo settings) because I know that many exmos are agnostics/atheists. As such, many are skeptical or even antagonistic towards those who still believe. I'm not calling you antagonistic, but neither do I feel entirely comfortable with you rationalizing my experience of what I call "God" by suggesting that I have created experiences to mediate any anxiety I might feel. I might feel uncomfortable because I fear/doubt that you might be right. Or I may feel uncomfortable because I don't like my experience called into question. I do know that you are fully qualified to evaluate YOUR experiences.


Truly, I don't know what or who "God" is any more. This is what I do "know", from my own experience rather than what anyone else says: I have had consistent experiences over many years of "praying" and feeling a connection to something greater than myself. I agree with Jeff that I am part of God and God is part of me; I also experience "God" as not ONLY me. This experience has only grown stronger and more consistent over time.

My experience of "God" has led me away from the LDS church, out of an unhealthy marriage which was very damaging to me, and into many positive experiences. These experiences have ALWAYS led me to be more loving of both myself and others, and I have been empowered enormously through the experiences.

So, I ask, what's the downside here? There is NONE for me. These experiences are not irrational for me; I employ all of my rational capabilities as well. I call them, for lack of a better word, extra-rational. They add another "sense" to the five basic senses we are born with. Since I have benefitted so powerfully from this "experience", I will continue to connect to what I call, for lack of a better word, "God." This is what makes sense for me and what benefits my life.

I feel NO need to proselytize or try to convince others to pray or believe in God, or to believe in God the way I do. We're all on our own individual paths and make sense of our lives and experiences in our own ways. I do want to share my experiences and thoughts and feelings here and hear what others---including you, Paul---have to say.

Laraine

[peter_mary]

"
I'm not calling you antagonistic, but neither do I feel entirely comfortable with you rationalizing my experience of what I call "God" by suggesting that I have created experiences to mediate any anxiety I might feel.

Laraine

Laraine,

I really am not being antgonistic...truly. I always try to be clear, and I thought I was in this post, that what I'm expressing is my own opinion, and which is necessarily limited to my own experience. I speak for no one else, I claim no special knowledge or wisdom, and above all, I refuse to believe that my mind has shut on the issue. Most importantly, it is not my intent to rationalize your experiences...rather I am attempting to make sense out of my own. In this post, and many others that I have and will post, I'm speaking openly and honestly about the pathways my mind has explored, and I implore you to do likewise. Your journey is not mine to evaluate, and I would be remiss if I tried. But I can learn from your experiences. Like you, I have no need to convert anyone to my way of thinking or seeing...I was a lousy missionary as a Mormon, and I intend to be equally lousy as a Post-Mormon!

Consistent with the rules of this forum, it is not my intent to "advocate" for an athiest point of view, but only to explore in the context of this discussion where my brain takes me. Please, don't take any of my ramblings personaly, and I promise to do likewise (unless you send me hugs, and THOSE I'll take personally!) If I appeared arrogant, my appologies. If I merely appeared opinionated, then I stand by those opinions!

Paul

[Jeff_Ricks]

"I believe they are a function of our subconcious mind intersecting with our subconscious desire at a point in space in which an event can be configured in such a way to allow our brains to make us feel good. I suppose that makes a me stick-in-the-mud, and I am TOTALLY open to other possibilities...it's just not been my personal experience."
Paul

Dear Paul,

So is what you're saying, in a delicate way, is that I feel anxiety and then manufacture experieces/feelings to mitigate that anxiety and call it God?

I have been hesitant to share my experiences of "God" here (actually in most exmo settings) because I know that many exmos are agnostics/atheists. As such, many are skeptical or even antagonistic towards those who still believe. I'm not calling you antagonistic, but neither do I feel entirely comfortable with you rationalizing my experience of what I call "God" by suggesting that I have created experiences to mediate any anxiety I might feel. I might feel uncomfortable because I fear/doubt that you might be right. Or I may feel uncomfortable because I don't like my experience called into question. I do know that you are fully qualified to evaluate YOUR experiences.


Truly, I don't know what or who "God" is any more. This is what I do "know", from my own experience rather than what anyone else says: I have had consistent experiences over many years of "praying" and feeling a connection to something greater than myself. I agree with Jeff that I am part of God and God is part of me; I also experience "God" as not ONLY me. This experience has only grown stronger and more consistent over time.

My experience of "God" has led me away from the LDS church, out of an unhealthy marriage which was very damaging to me, and into many positive experiences. These experiences have ALWAYS led me to be more loving of both myself and others, and I have been empowered enormously through the experiences.

So, I ask, what's the downside here? There is NONE for me. These experiences are not irrational for me; I employ all of my rational capabilities as well. I call them, for lack of a better word, extra-rational. They add another "sense" to the five basic senses we are born with. Since I have benefitted so powerfully from this "experience", I will continue to connect to what I call, for lack of a better word, "God." This is what makes sense for me and what benefits my life.

I feel NO need to proselytize or try to convince others to pray or believe in God, or to believe in God the way I do. We're all on our own individual paths and make sense of our lives and experiences in our own ways. I do want to share my experiences and thoughts and feelings here and hear what others---including you, Paul---have to say.

Laraine


I’d like to clarify that I don’t exactly think of myself as a part of God and God as a part of me. Instead, I think of myself as God, period. Lock, stock and barrel. I see no separation between the two. It’s not like God is out there somewhere and I’m right here and we're connected. There’s nothing to connect because, as I see it, we are the same. Likewise, I can’t connect Jeff to Jeff because we are (I am) already the same. There’s no distinction between the two, and they are really not “two,” they are (or it is) one and the same. See my post in another thread for hopefully a better explanation of how I see it.

http://www.post-mormons.com/forum_vb/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=87

When I’m asked if I believe in God I sometimes say, “Yes! I do, and you’re looking at him.” Of course that doesn’t always go over very well so I do my best to try to explain exactly what I mean.

My mom and I have talked about these things from time to time and she’s finally moved from "there is a god out there and I can talk to him through prayer," to "there is a god out there and we are connected," to "there's a god out there and I'm a part of it." I don’t see much difference between any of the three concepts. But see a huge difference between them and the concept that "there isn’t a god out there because anything that can be called a god is right here – me." That same perspective applies to everyone else too, meaning that we, our minds, meaning the essence of who and what we are, is one and the same thing. To me we are each facets of the same diamond, but not just a facet, we are the each the diamond. To some that must sound like I’ve been drinking too much, but hey, I haven’t touched a drop. The thread at the link above is my best shot at explaining what I mean.

In another thread I explained how in my view Jesus is to blame for the thousands of divisions in Christianity and no one else. That thread is here:

http://www.post-mormons.com/forum_vb/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=110

But actually I see that the ultimate blame goes to God. He gets that prize. Or better stated, in my view it’s the belief in a “God out there” that’s to blame for all the bickering, contention and bloodshed found in religion. This because if God is seen as out there somewhere and we’re right here (whether or not we see ourselves as connected with or a part of God) then it implies that there’s something that went wrong somewhere that caused us be put in this place where we are that is different from out there where God is. And that it implies that there’s something we need to do right so we can get from here to out there where God is. Enter the concepts of a savior, doctrines, commandments, rules, repentance, and the “my rules are the right rules and yours are the wrong ones syndrome.” And what follows is all of the finger pointing, bickering, contention and bloodshed that inevitably goes along with that.

But if it’s realized that there is no god separate from us; that we are it, then all of that crap goes away! But it will never go away until we understand that there is nothing out there that we need to please or contact in order to get beamed up to the good place where It is when we die. This is it, so we best make the best of it. Otherwise we’re doomed for eventual self-annihilation and a lot more of the pain and sorrow we have in this world as we are on our way to getting there.

I say this in the name of my humble opinion. The end.

Jeff

(Please note: This is only my opinion and these are only my views and are not to be construed as representative of anything beyond that. And I don't want to cause any contention. I'm only one member of our community trying to clarify my earlier expressed views)

[lsands]

Consistent with the rules of this forum, it is not my intent to "advocate" for an athiest point of view, but only to explore in the context of this discussion where my brain takes me. Please, don't take any of my ramblings personaly, and I promise to do likewise (unless you send me hugs, and THOSE I'll take personally!) If I appeared arrogant, my appologies. If I merely appeared opinionated, then I stand by those opinions!

Paul[/QUOTE]

Dear Paul,
I DON'T take the things you say personally, and I am not as sensitive to disagreement as I probably appeared. I really am quite open-minded and anxious to keep learning/exploring/understanding, which is why I'm here.

If I perceive that my experiences are being questioned, then I feel a need to clarify. There was a long war on the exmo board with the atheists vs. the believers several months ago. What I found extremely annoying about it was not the discussion, but the dogmatism I found in some, who seemed to be as sure that there ISN"T a God as they used to be that there IS one, and their eagerness to criticize and minimize the experiences of those who still believed.

So, I welcome the continued discussion as a way for me to continue to analyze my beliefs and the reasons for them, and to consider new ideas and perspectives. Consider yourself hugged long-distance (there's probably a way to express this online, but I don't know how.) And if/when we meet in person, I'll give you a REAL hug. :)

Laraine

[peter_mary]

Consider yourself hugged long-distance (there's probably a way to express this online, but I don't know how.) And if/when we meet in person, I'll give you a REAL hug. :)

Laraine

Thanks for the hug! I needed it... You never can tell for sure how people feel when all you see is the written words on your screen, and our little smilies only go SO far (I've been pestering Jeff for a barfing smilie for weeks now!)

It's very helpful to understand where some of the sensitivity might come from. Part of the reason I never participated in the exmo board was because it was too contentious for me. I really and truly honor everyone's journey, Mormon, Post-Mormon and non-Mormon alike, in part because I have loved my own journey so much! The day-to-day business of trying to make sense out of life when you realize the possibilities are endless is infinately rewarding, and interestingly, the outcomes are equally infinate in possibility. I not only respect that, but I honor that! I really do hope that this forum is always a safe place for people to express the things that are in their heart, regardless of where their heart has led them.

Again, thanks for the hug, and consider the hug received and returned, and I look forward to meeting you so I can hold you to that promise! :)

Paul

[lsands]

Jeff,
I apologize for misunderstanding and misrepresenting your views. Also, as I expressed in my reply to Paul, I am not as easily offended as I may have appeared. Since you and I have talked on many occasions, I hope you already know that.

I went and read the link about you understanding of God and how YOU yourself are God, and I agree with you. What I don't see or agree with are your conclusions of what must logically follow from a belief in a "God" out there.

"But actually I see that the ultimate blame goes to God. He gets that prize. Or better stated, in my view it’s the belief in a “God out there” that’s to blame for all the bickering, contention and bloodshed found in religion. This because if God is seen as out there somewhere and we’re right here (whether or not we see ourselves as connected with or a part of God) then it implies that there’s something that went wrong somewhere that caused us be put in this place where we are that is different from out there where God is. And that it implies that there’s something we need to do right so we can get from here to out there where God is. Enter the concepts of a savior, doctrines, commandments, rules, repentance, and the “my rules are the right rules and yours are the wrong ones syndrome.” And what follows is all of the finger pointing, bickering, contention and bloodshed that inevitably goes along with that.

"But if it’s realized that there is no god separate from us; that we are it, then all of that crap goes away! But it will never go away until we understand that there is nothing out there that we need to please or contact in order to get beamed up to the good place where It is when we die. This is it, so we best make the best of it. Otherwise we’re doomed for eventual self-annihilation and a lot more of the pain and sorrow we have in this world as we are on our way to getting there."
Jeff

My concept of "God" has changed---and keeps changing---as I learn and grow. Where once I believed in "the TRUTH", now I preface any remarks with, "This is what I believe and understand right now." Which is so COOL for me---to be able to explore and find my OWN meaning which is dynamic and changing, and not laid out by someone else.

"God", as Jeff says, is a highly-charged word with lots of emotional and intellectual baggage attached. As I stated earlier, I really don't know what or who 'God" is, nor do I consider myself really capable of understanding, at least right now. Divine energy might come closer to my current understanding. I attach the language of a mother-Goddess to the power I experience because that is one aspect of the power that is meaningful to me. I do not, however, think that this is a physical "reality" in any way, or the only aspect.

In fact, I beleive that our perceptions of "God" are based on our own life experiences, culture, and teachings. So a Hindu living in India defines "God" according to her culture and life and understanding, as does the Muslim, Jew, Christian, etc. We all perceive different aspects or ways of looking at God. And we're ALL RIGHT, in my opinion, at least when we perceive "God" as loving and compassionate. I think that those who assign to God vengefulness, judgement, and destruction are projecting their own desires onto God. It's kind of like the story of the blind men who "see" the elephant according to which piece of it they're experiencing through touch. One way I have expressed this idea is that God speaks to each of us in our own language.

I want to add to this later---have to go and do other things now. Jeff, thanks again for providing this forum for such stimulating discusssion!

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff,
I apologize for misunderstanding and misrepresenting your views. Also, as I expressed in my reply to Paul, I am not as easily offended as I may have appeared. Since you and I have talked on many occasions, I hope you already know that.

I went and read the link about you understanding of God and how YOU yourself are God, and I agree with you. What I don't see or agree with are your conclusions of what must logically follow from a belief in a "God" out there.

"But actually I see that the ultimate blame goes to God. He gets that prize. Or better stated, in my view it’s the belief in a “God out there” that’s to blame for all the bickering, contention and bloodshed found in religion. This because if God is seen as out there somewhere and we’re right here (whether or not we see ourselves as connected with or a part of God) then it implies that there’s something that went wrong somewhere that caused us be put in this place where we are that is different from out there where God is. And that it implies that there’s something we need to do right so we can get from here to out there where God is. Enter the concepts of a savior, doctrines, commandments, rules, repentance, and the “my rules are the right rules and yours are the wrong ones syndrome.” And what follows is all of the finger pointing, bickering, contention and bloodshed that inevitably goes along with that.

"But if it’s realized that there is no god separate from us; that we are it, then all of that crap goes away! But it will never go away until we understand that there is nothing out there that we need to please or contact in order to get beamed up to the good place where It is when we die. This is it, so we best make the best of it. Otherwise we’re doomed for eventual self-annihilation and a lot more of the pain and sorrow we have in this world as we are on our way to getting there."
Jeff

My concept of "God" has changed---and keeps changing---as I learn and grow. Where once I believed in "the TRUTH", now I preface any remarks with, "This is what I believe and understand right now." Which is so COOL for me---to be able to explore and find my OWN meaning which is dynamic and changing, and not laid out by someone else.

"God", as Jeff says, is a highly-charged word with lots of emotional and intellectual baggage attached. As I stated earlier, I really don't know what or who 'God" is, nor do I consider myself really capable of understanding, at least right now. Divine energy might come closer to my current understanding. I attach the language of a mother-Goddess to the power I experience because that is one aspect of the power that is meaningful to me. I do not, however, think that this is a physical "reality" in any way, or the only aspect.

In fact, I beleive that our perceptions of "God" are based on our own life experiences, culture, and teachings. So a Hindu living in India defines "God" according to her culture and life and understanding, as does the Muslim, Jew, Christian, etc. We all perceive different aspects or ways of looking at God. And we're ALL RIGHT, in my opinion, at least when we perceive "God" as loving and compassionate. I think that those who assign to God vengefulness, judgement, and destruction are projecting their own desires onto God. It's kind of like the story of the blind men who "see" the elephant according to which piece of it they're experiencing through touch. One way I have expressed this idea is that God speaks to each of us in our own language.

I want to add to this later---have to go and do other things now. Jeff, thanks again for providing this forum for such stimulating discusssion!

I'd like to introduce some thoughts of mine along these lines too but I'll have to wait until after the Southerton presentation tonight. I need to turn my attention to it for the rest of the day. Are you coming Laraine?? Paul's coming. Hey we can have a group hug! :D But if you can't come I understand.

Jeff

[lsands]

And listen and learn, but Logan is SO FAR for me (I live in Springville.) Can we meet in a more central place sometime soon, like Bountiful or Salt Lake?
Laraine :D

[vixenz]

I was raised in the church and have always been a very spiritual person. I have never experienced voices or any type of vision but I have had prayers 'answered' on multiple occasions. I always tried to incorporate the religion and my connection with 'the spirit' part of my every day life, in consequence I would pray to overcome fairly simple every day things.

Here is an example:

When I was a young child I was in the car with my younger siblings (I am the oldest of 6 kids). We were on a trip and the weather was very cold and the window had been having issues rolling back up after it was rolled down. For some reason we had to roll it down and it would not roll back up. We were all freezing. In the back seat my brother just younger than me and I decided to say a prayer. We prayed for a few minutes and then asked our parents to try rolling up the window again. The window rolled up.

This experience stood out although I've had many other spiritual experiences, probably because I was quite young and to me this was a manifestation of the 'holy ghost' as well as to my brother who is still a strong and active member.

Currently I have many thoughts and ideas floating through my head concerning my spiritual experiences.

I believe that there are many ways in which our brains work that we cannot yet comprehend and the mind is such a powerful thing. It has no way of separating dreams with reality as we are dreaming which can lead to experiences such as hypnagogia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia). It is also believed that normal sleep paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sleep_paralysis#Sleep_paralysis_and_the_brain .3F) is "thought to be necessary to prevent the body from movements caused by dreams. Eyes however are not paralyzed by this system, and this exception was used to prove that lucid dreaming was an objectively verifiable phenomenon." Sleep paralysis has also been attributed to alien abductions, or other culturally related phenomena (http://www.paranormalresearchonline.com/articles_10.html)

That is only ONE small thing to think about.

What about apparent coincidences that most of us routinely (or at times) experience? For instance calling a friend you haven't seen in ages who has been thinking of you as well or who has needed to talk to you (I have personally experienced this on multiple occasions with multiple people). Or meeting someone for a short period of time, just long enough for them to introduce you to new concepts that you just happened to be open to at that specific point in your life (this happened to me, I met someone online briefly who introduced me to the book "The Celestine Prophecies" - I no longer have contact with that person).

What about quantum physics, the string theory and the chaos theory? The more we learn the less we seem to know about our existence, or the more theories we find to entertain.

After so much reading and talking to so many different individuals, all with different perspectives, this is what I've personally come up with for myself:

As far as I can tell everything exists around some type of energy or different forms of this energy which connect us with eachother and with our surroundings. This energy can be "sensed" if you open yourself up to it (make yourself aware) on a daily basis, and much more so in natural surroundings (think of the peacefulness felt when relaxing alone in the mountains, desert, or anywhere else away from the business and distractions of everyday life). Perhaps we are all connected in ways we can't yet scientifically comprehend, in ways that may seem nonsensical only because we haven't yet gained the knowledge to make sense of them. I personally like to entertain Card's idea of a philotic web (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philotic_web) - a "web" of energy that connects us all, but that is much stronger between individuals who are closer (closer in a relationship sense, not in a physical sense).

Everything seems to happen for a reason. I used to think the reason was explicitly for my learning and growth (or in direct consequence of my actions, which is only partially accurate) so that I could progress from this world into a celestial one. I now believe our thoughts and intentions are projected out from us which helps shape our lives and the situations we come into. Kind of like karma but a bit different.

I hope I made sense, like I said I have many ideas floating around in my head and it is easy to forget to add things for clarification purposes.

[Born Free]

<snip>
Here is an example:

When I was a young child I was in the car with my younger siblings (I am the oldest of 6 kids). We were on a trip and the weather was very cold and the window had been having issues rolling back up after it was rolled down. For some reason we had to roll it down and it would not roll back up. We were all freezing. In the back seat my brother just younger than me and I decided to say a prayer. We prayed for a few minutes and then asked our parents to try rolling up the window again. The window rolled up.

<snip>

What about apparent coincidences that most of us routinely (or at times) experience? For instance calling a friend you haven't seen in ages who has been thinking of you as well or who has needed to talk to you (I have personally experienced this on multiple occasions with multiple people). Or meeting someone for a short period of time, just long enough for them to introduce you to new concepts that you just happened to be open to at that specific point in your life (this happened to me, I met someone online briefly who introduced me to the book "The Celestine Prophecies" - I no longer have contact with that person).

After so much reading and talking to so many different individuals, all with different perspectives, this is what I've personally come up with for myself:

<snip>

Everything seems to happen for a reason. I used to think the reason was explicitly for my learning and growth (or in direct consequence of my actions, which is only partially accurate) so that I could progress from this world into a celestial one. I now believe our thoughts and intentions are projected out from us which helps shape our lives and the situations we come into. Kind of like karma but a bit different.

I hope I made sense, like I said I have many ideas floating around in my head and it is easy to forget to add things for clarification purposes.
vixenz,

I hope I am slow to tell people they have got it all wrong. I have learnt that others 'realities' are frequently very different from mine, and that it is helpful to listen and feedback very carefully. I hope I succeed in that here! :cool:

I have highlighted some sections of your post, which for me raise the possibility of alternative interpretations. May I explore some?

1. For instance calling a friend you haven't seen in ages who has been thinking of you as well or who has needed to talk to you (I have personally experienced this on multiple occasions with multiple people): If your friend called when you had not thought about her for 3 months, your brain would not link the call to the thought, so the association would be missed. However, when the two correlate, our (pattern-seeking human) brains, make a connection. In effect, we are not tracking ALL the data, so the result is that we weight certain data disproportionately.

Your instance of the car window can fit this model. If the prayer had not coincided with the window closing, you may have drawn a different conclusion. If you had cussed and kicked the door lining, effectively making a good electrical contact where one had previously been intermittent, then what conclusion might you have drawn? That outcome would likely reinforce the model that cussing works.

We interpret outcomes through our belief window. If ones culture said you should kill and eat a cat a month to keep Gods favour, and then this incident occured, one would probably give thanks to God at the next months ritual killing, that God had 'blessed' you.

2. Everything seems to happen for a reason: Again, it can be argued that our brains play tricks. After the event, when we look back from just one trajectory out of a given scenario, we conclude that it was 'meant to be' or 'happened for a reason'. It can be theorised, that if we were to stand at the end point of any of the other trajectoies out of that stem, that we would reach the same conclusion, so the simple reason the other possibilities are less 'real' for us. The existence of the other possibilities and even that we may be living them all in parallel has been the subject of some scientific speculation.

For me a tremendous starting point on this issue is 'What is my definition of spiritual?' That simple definition of terms serves us well. For me defining spiritual as non-material is a fairly viable starting point.

Are there events I cannot explain materially? Sure are. I have a daughter who possessed insights into another families (strangers to her) context surrounding the loss of a new infant at 5 months, which I cannot explain, either from my experience, or from any scientific model. Do I doubt this daughters sanity or trustworthiness? Not one skerick.

So I have to leave it sit there........ unexplained. I neither ignore it, or rush to force an explanation/try to make it fit some model that it is a gift from God/Satan.

BTW, good on your for going back over the threads sitting back in the archives, and hauling up some good ones. There are plenty there. I also prefer your process of appending your remarks/insights to existing threads, rather than starting new ones. That keeps our collective insights pooled together, which I reason better serves those who come later.

Daryl

[vixenz]

vixenz,

I hope I am slow to tell people they have got it all wrong. I have learnt that others 'realities' are frequently very different from mine, and that it is helpful to listen and feedback very carefully. I hope I succeed in that here! :cool:

I have highlighted some sections of your post, which for me raise the possibility of alternative interpretations. May I explore some?

1. For instance calling a friend you haven't seen in ages who has been thinking of you as well or who has needed to talk to you (I have personally experienced this on multiple occasions with multiple people): If your friend called when you had not thought about her for 3 months, your brain would not link the call to the thought, so the association would be missed. However, when the two correlate, our (pattern-seeking human) brains, make a connection. In effect, we are not tracking ALL the data, so the result is that we weight certain data disproportionately.

Your instance of the car window can fit this model. If the prayer had not coincided with the window closing, you may have drawn a different conclusion. If you had cussed and kicked the door lining, effectively making a good electrical contact where one had previously been intermittent, then what conclusion might you have drawn? That outcome would likely reinforce the model that cussing works.

We interpret outcomes through our belief window. If ones culture said you should kill and eat a cat a month to keep Gods favour, and then this incident occured, one would probably give thanks to God at the next months ritual killing, that God had 'blessed' you.

2. Everything seems to happen for a reason: Again, it can be argued that our brains play tricks. After the event, when we look back from just one trajectory out of a given scenario, we conclude that it was 'meant to be' or 'happened for a reason'. It can be theorised, that if we were to stand at the end point of any of the other trajectoies out of that stem, that we would reach the same conclusion, so the simple reason the other possibilities are less 'real' for us. The existence of the other possibilities and even that we may be living them all in parallel has been the subject of some scientific speculation.

For me a tremendous starting point on this issue is 'What is my definition of spiritual?' That simple definition of terms serves us well. For me defining spiritual as non-material is a fairly viable starting point.

Are there events I cannot explain materially? Sure are. I have a daughter who possessed insights into another families (strangers to her) context surrounding the loss of a new infant at 5 months, which I cannot explain, either from my experience, or from any scientific model. Do I doubt this daughters sanity or trustworthiness? Not one skerick.

So I have to leave it sit there........ unexplained. I neither ignore it, or rush to force an explanation/try to make it fit some model that it is a gift from God/Satan.

BTW, good on your for going back over the threads sitting back in the archives, and hauling up some good ones. There are plenty there. I also prefer your process of appending your remarks/insights to existing threads, rather than starting new ones. That keeps our collective insights pooled together, which I reason better serves those who come later.

Daryl

I agree with you completely ...and it is smart of you not to tell someone they got something wrong when this something cannot be proven either way ;)

Which is one reason I added everything else I added to my post (thoughts about the brain, quantum physics, etc.), to explore other possibilities and ideas. I was rather hoping to get more feedback on those points actually as they are currently more intriguing to me...

Although I have always considered myself spiritual (whatever that really means) I have always been very curious about sceintific advances and discoveries and believe there are very logical explanations for occurances we like to attribute to "God" or a higher power of some sort. Regardless, I personally still feel "connected" in ways that are difficult to explain, my brief examples don't come close either, and perhaps it is something that is easier for the female brain to experience because of the way it is wired. Who really knows anyway? There really is no way to prove either way at this point. Another interesting thought along simliar *kind of* lines....

I had heard that there is a certain chemical that is released when a person dies (apparently it is naturally created in low amounts by our bodies during metabolism), and that this can be emulated using DMT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine):

"Dimethyltryptamine, also known as DMT or N,N-dimethyltryptamine, is a hallucinogenic indole, similar in structure to the neurotransmitter serotonin, created during normal metabolism in low amounts by the human body.

DMT is a powerful psychoactive substance. If DMT is smoked, injected, or orally ingested with an MAOI, it can produce powerful entheogenic experiences including true hallucinations (perceived extensions of reality). A trip sitter is often employed to assist the drug user stay physically and mentally healthy, and, in the case of smoked DMT, to catch the pipe when the user loses awareness of it.

As DMT is highly probably naturally produced in small amounts by the human organism, some believe it plays a role in dreaming, near-death experiences and other mystical states. It has been speculated by the researcher Jace Callaway that DMT might be connected with visual dreaming. It is also speculated that DMT can be found in elevated amounts during times of visual dreaming or after near-death experiences."

Although the above experiences can be drug induced the mind is quite powerful and creative. Of course there's the placebo effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect) to consider as well....

Even what we see with our eyes is only a relatively small portion of the world! Take into consideration the Mantis Shrimp's vision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantis_shrimp) compared to ours:

"Mantis shrimp appear in a variety of colours, from rather unexciting browns to stunning neon. They are the only animals with hyperspectral colour vision. Their eyes - both mounted on mobile stalks and constantly moving about (apparently independent of one another) - are similarly variably colored, and are considered to be the most complex eyes in the animal kingdom. They permit both serial and parallel analysis of visual stimuli. The compound eye is made up from up to 10,000 separate elements and are of the apposition type."

Crazy isn't it? The more I think about reality the more I realize no one really knows what reality is. At least not outside of themselves.

We interpret outcomes through our belief window. If ones culture said you should kill and eat a cat a month to keep Gods favour, and then this incident occured, one would probably give thanks to God at the next months ritual killing, that God had 'blessed' you.

This is something that has been obvious to me since I have been able to distance myself from a group conscious and start figuring things out for myself. I honestly do not think I could ever again completely and fully align my conscious with any religion, philosophy or thought. There is no good reason to as our minds are always changing their views on what reality really is. No matter how crazy or non-sensical an idea is on the "meaning of life" or that tries to explain our existence it is no better than the most logical explanation scientists can come up with. The reason for this is there is no proof of anything about our existence before (where did our "soul" come from if it is something separated yet intigrated with our mind?) or after (if indeed an after does exist) this life now. At least not yet....Perhaps someday we will harness the energy we call "life" and will become the Gods we had before created.

[nan_nc]

I'm new to this forum. I was a convert (age 20) and remained active for almost twenty years. I've been a UU for quite a while.

For a number of years following my departure from Moism, I did not know what to do with previous spiritual experiences. Were they real? I would occasionally read my old journals and squirm. And what about those spiritual moments that had nothing to do with the M church but had to do with my connections with people. What about the feelings of grace?

I've come to beieve that the imagery in our spiritual lives is a reflection of our world view and our emotional being at that time. In times of crisis or doubt or despair, we often bargain with the universal. Our imagery might be a father god, a suffering Jesus, or something or someone who represents what we at the time think is the ultimate reality. (say a kindly prophet). If we are praying for our burden to be lifted, and feel some internal wisdom, we attribute it to whomever or whatever we are bargaining with at the time. So experiences become our truth - or perhaps a better word is our truth-stories. If we let our experiences become truth-stories we can hold them up without worrying about being literal. This is what I felt at the time - when this is how I defined the universe. I don't have to call myself a fool or a victim.

So I'm thinking

Nan

[Jeff_Ricks]

I'm new to this forum. I was a convert (age 20) and remained active for almost twenty years. I've been a UU for quite a while.

For a number of years following my departure from Moism, I did not know what to do with previous spiritual experiences. Were they real? I would occasionally read my old journals and squirm. And what about those spiritual moments that had nothing to do with the M church but had to do with my connections with people. What about the feelings of grace?

I've come to beieve that the imagery in our spiritual lives is a reflection of our world view and our emotional being at that time. In times of crisis or doubt or despair, we often bargain with the universal. Our imagery might be a father god, a suffering Jesus, or something or someone who represents what we at the time think is the ultimate reality. (say a kindly prophet). If we are praying for our burden to be lifted, and feel some internal wisdom, we attribute it to whomever or whatever we are bargaining with at the time. So experiences become our truth - or perhaps a better word is our truth-stories. If we let our experiences become truth-stories we can hold them up without worrying about being literal. This is what I felt at the time - when this is how I defined the universe. I don't have to call myself a fool or a victim.

So I'm thinking

Nan Welcome to the forum! Interesting thoughts. I wonder if some of what we have called or even now call spiritual experiences are actually encounters with our subconscious mind. These experiences seem to come from a source outside of our "self" and indeed probably are, because in a sense, the subconscious mind is outside of our self if we define the self as our conscious mind. So, when someone has an experience that they assume can only be from God perhaps its simply an experience that occurred when the conscious mind, when (as you mentioned) is under stress and struggling for answers, allows some aspect of the subconscious to flow into the conscious mind. I've had such experiences twice in my life when I was searching for answers to life situations. The experiences were so real to me and felt like they had originated from outside myself that I was sure that they were from God. I don't think that anymore. I still think of those experiences with a degree of reverence, but it's a reverence not for God but for the amazing, mysterious phenomenon of consciousness that I think we have barely begun to understand.

Jeff

[nan_nc]

Soul is now one of my favorite words. I discovered the work of Thomas Moore (Care of the Soul) early on in my post-m journey. "There is an economics of the soul by which entry into new areas of thought, emotion, and relationship demands a steep price." Truth is a stopping point asking for commitment and defense." Instead I try to speak the insight of my soul and explore with a fragment of my awareness. This is how I see spiritual experiences; I do not have to defend them or make some commitment. No bargaining anymore. .

There is no fair exchange with the Universe. It gives and it takes. My joy and sorrow make sense in how I connect them not in the light of some holy will.

Nan

[Jeff_Ricks]

Soul is now one of my favorite words. I discovered the work of Thomas Moore (Care of the Soul) early on in my post-m journey. "There is an economics of the soul by which entry into new areas of thought, emotion, and relationship demands a steep price." Truth is a stopping point asking for commitment and defense." Instead I try to speak the insight of my soul and explore with a fragment of my awareness. This is how I see spiritual experiences; I do not have to defend them or make some commitment. No bargaining anymore. .

There is no fair exchange with the Universe. It gives and it takes. My joy and sorrow make sense in how I connect them not in the light of some holy will.

NanCool stuff. :) It resonates with. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jeff