Effects of Male-only God on Women AND Men

[lsands]

Another topic that came up in projections thread was about female-based religions, as compared with the male-based God and scriptures of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It was brought up in that thread specifically in the context of how it affected our sexuality; I wanted to continue general thoughts about the subject here. Part of my post stated:

On to the subject that Paul brought up: early female-based religion and sexuality. A few years ago I began reading about goddess-based religions and found it so HEALING to my patriarchal-sodden soul. Because the idea of a male god, male prophets, etc is so ubiquitous, I don't think women fully realize what it does to us emotionally and spiritually. When I started reading about Goddesses I felt as if the other half of me had been restored, as if I now had two arms and legs instead of just one. It was a profound relief to me and incredibly empowering; it fed a deep, unrealized need in my soul. That there is equal divinity in both male and female seems so incredibly obvious that since then, on the rare occasions I have gone to LDS meetings, it seems odd to me that all they talk about is “Heavenly Father”. How in the hell can you have a father without a mother?

One book that opened my eyes then, and that I will refer to now, is Merlin Stone’s, When God Was a Woman (1976). It is one of the first and definitive books on this topic. (end of section from previous post)

This is obviously an issue that affects me deeply. I'm wondering how others on this board have experienced this. I want to hear from men AND women because I believe this impacts ALL of us. Certainly the fact that women have been erased from our religion messes with our heads in unique ways, but I'd like to try to move away from the idea of women-as-the-only-victims stance. (Hope this doesn't get me into too much trouble!)

Laraine

[Born Free]

This is obviously an issue that affects me deeply. I'm wondering how others on this board have experienced this. I want to hear from men AND women because I believe this impacts ALL of us. Certainly the fact that women have been erased from our religion messes with our heads in unique ways, but I'd like to try to move away from the idea of women-as-the-only-victims stance. (Hope this doesn't get me into too much trouble!)

Laraine[/QUOTE]

The loss of the God-feminine carries colateral damage. The one that comes immediately to mind, is the crone gets lost, and with her the appreciation and valueing of the mature and wise woman and all that she offers a healthy community.

The effect of that is excessive valuing of the young woman, as if her beauty is everything. Further she is so much easier to exploit in a materialist endeavour.

I am sure I will think of more later (it is first thing in te morning here in Oz), but your question is excellent one. Thanks for pitching it into the mix.

Daryl

[stuckasamo]

The Morons teach that men will be able to take plural wives in the afterlife. HELLO? Why don't Moron women have a problem with that? Actually, I feel dumb for even asking myself that question.

But in three years (I hope it goes by fast) when I finally get to send in my f***-you letter to SLC headquarters, I'm going to go to RS one more time so I can ask one of the ladies that question, just to see what kind of bullshit comes forth from the gossiping hole in her face.

Why would anyone want to go to a heaven where there's no coffee, anyway? My teacher preaches in my Book of Mormon class that we should "bridle our passions. Well, you know what? I'm not a damn horse.

[Born Free]

Why would anyone want to go to a heaven where there's no coffee, anyway? My teacher preaches in my Book of Mormon class that we should "bridle our passions. Well, you know what? I'm not a damn horse.[/QUOTE]


Sounds kind of S&M to me! Possibly even undertones of bestiality! :eek:

Daryl

[dogzilla]

I read this thread last night and have been thinking about it ever since.

I never really ran into the issue until college when I took a few women's studies courses. (I actually went to a school that offered women's studies courses! They were great!) What struck me more about feminism and misogyny in general is the double whammy that minority women face. Patriarchal culture goes back thousands of years, so I'm not sure we can really deal with it here.

Matriarchal cultures are not non existant in the world. There are at least two major matriarchal native American tribes -- I want to say Navajo and Hopi are both matriarchally based. Many of the other indian tribes in this country were as well, I believe. And that extends into Central and South America -- there are remote tribal cultures in the Amazon (and elsewhere) that are female-led and run.

I would be interested to hear from ex-missionaries or people who live out west, near these tribes. That's where you'd be able to see the effects because the juxtaposition would be hard to miss. In our lifetimes, most of us in white, anglo american cultures have known nothing else. Outside of the mormon world, the business world (for example) is still just as patriarchal as ever.

What does that do to us in the long run? This plays into my current belief system about god and what god is. I believe that "god" or what we call God, is the power of creation and destruction that every living thing possesses. The tree outside my office is an example of god as much as I am an example of god. We have choices. We create. We destroy. We are in control of our destinies, far moreso than most people realize. Very few recognize this power within themselves and so don't use it. Or they blame their negative actions on God or they give God all the credit for the good things. "Thank you God, for this Academy Award!" We don't take credit for our own power, men and women. (Animals, plants and other living things -- if there is a living thing that isn't a plant nor an animal have a more primitive version of this "power." They don't have language and most animals don't have the ability to plan. The higher order thinking processes are really only present in primates, but I think you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.)

Living in a patriarchal society, as we do, I believe makes it all that much more difficult to recognize the power within ourselves that we've always attributed to God. You ARE the higher power. This is why women have never started an LDS church. Name one cult started by a woman. Most of us don't even think we could do such a thing. Many of us wouldn't dare, even if we thought we could. We have been de-valued and marginalized for so long, this is okay and normal for us and 95% of us will never question it.

If it's all we've ever known, then why should we know any better? How could we possibly ever really see the effects, negative or postive, of a patriarchal society? More on this later as I think more and see what others have to say...

[peter_mary]

Name one cult started by a woman. Most of us don't even think we could do such a thing. Many of us wouldn't dare, even if we thought we could. We have been de-valued and marginalized for so long, this is okay and normal for us and 95% of us will never question it.



I agree with your post, by and large, but couldn't let the above challenge go unmet (it's a character flaw in me...sorry!)

I can think of two examples right of the top of my head. Most notably is Ellen G. White, founder of the Seventh Day Adventists (which as I recall was one of the OTHER successful movements that came out of the same revivalist time period as Mormonism). The second is more "cultic," namely Elizabeth Claire Prophet who founded the Church Universal and Triumphant, most famous for her failed "end of the world" prophecy that caused her whole community to move to some property that bordered Yellowstone National Park in an underground network of bunkers. When the date of destruction came and went, I think a lot of her folowers started trickeling away, much like the oil in thier underground fuel storage tanks that began contaminating the ground water adjacent to a National Park...not good...

But aside from those nits (again, forgive me!), I really agree with the gist of your post!

Paul

[dogzilla]

Thanks. I was unaware of those two women. I'm all for correcting misinformation so I appreciate you picking those nits!

I also thought of the Quakers, who have a much more egalitarian approach to religion. Traditional male and female roles are not as rigidly defined within their faith. Their meetings are more like what I've experienced in board rooms: they keep going 'round and 'round until they can reach a consensus.

I've toyed with the idea of joining the Quakers. They're just cool.

[Born Free]

If it's all we've ever known, then why should we know any better? How could we possibly ever really see the effects, negative or postive, of a patriarchal society? More on this later as I think more and see what others have to say...

dogzilla,

I am 100% in concurrance that as a culture, we tend to be blind to the alternatives to patriachal structures.

And from my own learnings and readings, I see another trap in exploring these notions. Just as patriachy has a dark and a light face, have you considered that matriachy has two faces. To arrive at a simple dichotomy of masculine = bad, feminine = good, risks maintaining the same black/white mentality that bedevils our culture.

I have mentioned elsewhere Whitmonts book Return of the Goddess. He argues that both phases offered advantages/disadvantages, and that we now live at a time in history when we can have the best of both and a minimum of the worst of each.

IMO it is a trap to imagine that women/feminity can do no wrong. That merely perpetuates the old "Little girls are sugar and spice" role conditioning. It is no more probable than the notion that man can never do any good.

How about the possibility that we might have people in leadership who have earned the invitation to lead, in the manner that reflects what we as a society desire and value - regardless of gender.

I deal daily with the downside of men's socialisation that they have a special role to perform, are entitled to respect and special consideration for that. Yes, they are disconnected from women, children and the needs of the planet, but first and foremost they are disconnected from themselves. Miss that point, and your chances of effecting change are massively diminished!

Daryl

[shamdiel]

Another topic that came up in projections thread was about female-based religions, as compared with the male-based God and scriptures of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It was brought up in that thread specifically in the context of how it affected our sexuality; I wanted to continue general thoughts about the subject here. Part of my post stated:

On to the subject that Paul brought up: early female-based religion and sexuality. A few years ago I began reading about goddess-based religions and found it so HEALING to my patriarchal-sodden soul. Because the idea of a male god, male prophets, etc is so ubiquitous, I don't think women fully realize what it does to us emotionally and spiritually. When I started reading about Goddesses I felt as if the other half of me had been restored, as if I now had two arms and legs instead of just one. It was a profound relief to me and incredibly empowering; it fed a deep, unrealized need in my soul. That there is equal divinity in both male and female seems so incredibly obvious that since then, on the rare occasions I have gone to LDS meetings, it seems odd to me that all they talk about is “Heavenly Father”. How in the hell can you have a father without a mother?

One book that opened my eyes then, and that I will refer to now, is Merlin Stone’s, When God Was a Woman (1976). It is one of the first and definitive books on this topic. (end of section from previous post)

This is obviously an issue that affects me deeply. I'm wondering how others on this board have experienced this. I want to hear from men AND women because I believe this impacts ALL of us. Certainly the fact that women have been erased from our religion messes with our heads in unique ways, but I'd like to try to move away from the idea of women-as-the-only-victims stance. (Hope this doesn't get me into too much trouble!)

Laraine
I had a personal experience with this a couple of years back. I was asked to say the closing prayer at my mother-in-law's funeral. I was ex'ed from the church several years eariler and was supprised that I was asked to pray as my mother-in-law was active mormon and her funeral was being held in the chapel. When it was time for the prayer I strayed from convention and just stood where I was seated and asked the congregation to stand and hold hands with the person on each side of them. I then addresed my prayer to Heavenly Mother; there was a loud gasp from my mother-in-law's sister and she nearly fell to the floor, to my surprise, no one tried to stop me and I was able to reminisce of a very kind and gracious lady with the congregation and her Heavenly Mother. I received a lot of comments on that prayer, by those there, including the Bishop and was surprised by the over all exceptance of the prayer. To my knowledge it was the first time a prayer to Heavenly Mother was given in a meeting in the Mormon Church.Call me a nut but I thought it would be more appropriate to pray to Heavenly Mother because we were at a womans funeral! Very interesting experience!!

[lsands]

I then addresed my prayer to Heavenly Mother; there was a loud gasp from my mother-in-law's sister and she nearly fell to the floor, to my surprise, no one tried to stop me and I was able to reminisce of a very kind and gracious lady with the congregation and her Heavenly Mother.

I wish I had your guts. I don't even have the courage to pray to the Goddess in prayers in my parents' home; but I'm working up to it. I bet that my mother never asks me to pray again! I have no problem stating my views and opinions, but I guess violating convention is another matter. The taboos/social pressure are laid deep on my soul.

I also wanted to comment on dogzilla's and sturdgw's posts on the problems with replacing a patriarchy with matriarchy. I completely agree that dominance is unhealthy regardless of the gender involved. My understanding of matriarchal structures indicates more equality and group dynamics than an authoritarian patriarchy, but I'll have to relocate some research to back that up. I do agree with you in principle, however. My son-in-law says, when asked, that he is NOT a feminist; he's a humanist. I find it hard to disagree with his stance.

[Born Free]

I also wanted to comment on dogzilla's and sturdgw's posts on the problems with replacing a patriarchy with matriarchy. I completely agree that dominance is unhealthy regardless of the gender involved. My understanding of matriarchal structures indicates more equality and group dynamics than an authoritarian patriarchy, but I'll have to relocate some research to back that up. I do agree with you in principle, however. My son-in-law says, when asked, that he is NOT a feminist; he's a humanist. I find it hard to disagree with his stance.

lsands,

Most isms involve an element of cultish behaviour IMHO. Get with the program, speak the language, read the right books, be seen in the right places, be clear about who is the enemy (who cannot possibly possess any redeeming features or possess any worjthwile ideas), and ne'er speak ill of (the bretheren/sisterhood) who cannot not possibly have any shadow issues.

Sound familiar?

I'm fully in support of humanism. - and maximising human potential at every turn.

Daryl