interesting lunch hour

[rainangel]

So today on my lunch break I ran into a couple of girls I knew back in my Snow College days (about 4-5 years ago). We decided to all have lunch together and were talking and catching up on each other's lives. So then one of them asked me where I live; I told her and then she made some comment about living in that area last year and something about the ward (I guess I wasn't really listening) and then she asked me who the bishop of our ward was. I considered for about a half a second just making something up to avoid an awkward moment, but then I decided just to be honest and tell her I didn't know. Then she wanted to know why I didn't know and I told her the truth again, it was because I don't go to church. I knew they would both be a little shocked, but I am getting really sick of continuing to pretend I am someone I am not or believe something I do not. I feel I have made a lot of progress over the last few months and I refuse to take steps backwards.

I thought they would just give me the “poor you” look and change the subject, but they started asking me questions (have you prayed about it, do you feel like you still have the spirit in your life, can’t you think of any specific blessings you have been given because of the church, you just have to have enough faith, and on and on). I wanted to take them seriously, because I know they mean well, but it’s still frustrating to get the typical TBM responses. Both of them have been on missions, so I kind of knew they wouldn’t just settle for simple answers. I didn’t even bother going into most of my concerns (the short version is that I just don’t believe in it, and based on what the church says, it’s basically an all-or-nothing thing and I have chosen nothing thankyouverymuch). They were really nice about it, but in the end they basically bore their testimonies to me and told me that I just needed to try and feel the spirit and if I am happy, then they are happy for me.

Anyway, this is the first time that I have had to deal with talking to friends who knew me when I was mo, who I haven’t seen forever, and who (justifiably) assume I am the same good mo I once was. Up to this point, I have sort of followed a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, but no one has ever come right out and asked before. I guess now I am looking for a balance between being honest and true to myself and not being offensive to people I still care about (this really applies to my family situation too).

It is likely that I will have more of these experiences (sooner or later), so I guess I am just wondering if any of you have had experiences like this and want to share so I can feel a little comfort. I suppose this is just another step in the process of finding peace and balance in my life.

I am continually grateful for the support I have found here, so thanks. :)

rainangel

[why me]

I think that the best response is not to get all riled up about it. People will ask you about the church and show concern when you tell them the truth. The way I look at it is that such people can be genuinely concerned about you. They have also been socially motivated to respond the way they do. No big deal when you think about it.

Continue to be friendly...try not to fly off the handle with such concern. And realize that it is done with no harm meant. People are people and mormons have their own way of reacting.

Be yourself...you seem to be a great person and so continue to be a great person who has moved past her mormon life, but you haven't moved past your human life. Continue to be a human being and treat people as a human being should. That's my advice...I hope that it helps...

[peter_mary]

Rainangel,

Actually, my wife and I spent the first two years after ceasing our Church activity preparing for those kinds of conversations, especially with the Bishop. My wife is a great little extemporanious speaker, and knows just how to say the right thing at the right time, phrased in such a way as to not put the other person off. I'm not so gifted, and so she was all worried that I would get cornered by a Bishop or Priesthood leader or whatever and say something that she would have to conduct damage control on later.

So we practiced (not literally, but essentially that's what it was) for years..."What are you gonna say if the Bishop asks 'X' or 'Y'?" We practiced, and waited, and practiced, and waited, and practiced...and waited......and practiced...........

...and waited....


...and waited...







...and waited....

Until we quit worrying about it. Finally, after 5 years of not having ONE SINGLE PERSON IN OUR WARD talk to us about this in ANY WAY, our new Bishop came over a few weeks ago and he and I had a very pleasant chat. He asked what I needed from the Ward, I told him that we didn't, technically, actually, thanks-all-the-same, need anything, and to please have the Home Teachers go to a family who wants them. He said that's all he needed to know.

So in terms of the CHURCH, we worried for nothing. And by the time it finally happened, I was so comfortable in my life and place in it, that it was the easiest thing in the world to talk.

Now, family is starting to get interesting. My sister-in-law did inquire nearly a year ago as to what was going on with us and the church, and my wife was surprisingly candid with her. She was appropriately shocked, but assured us that she would not talk with family members about this, realizing that it would accomplish nothing but hurt feelings and unwarranted concern, especially with my mother and father in law. Now we understand that at least all my wife's siblings are abuzz (which means the confidence wasn't kept, since all but the initiating SIL live out of state), and we have no idea whether my wife's parents know or not...and not ONE of them has approached us to talk about it. (We have one other Brother in Law who is also out of the Church intellectually, but still stays connected enough to play basketball in the church gym, so they all THINK he's still in, and he's our informant regarding the family gossip.)

Point is, I've been waiting for 5 years to tell my story, to really talk to someone from the church, family or friends who inquire into my life with real sincerity, and it hasn't happened yet. I'm beginning to think it ain't gonna...

Peter_Mary

[meinmachine]

Why me. As usual I disagree with you (There was that one time we agreed but then I had to go to the Doctor to get medicated).

It is true you should be nice and polite…blah… blah…blah…, but when you grow weary of that use a sense of humor. For example, when asked “Why don’t you go to church?” –i.e.: Mormon Church- reply “I can’t because I am now a devout Zoroastrian. I go to church at 5:00 a.m and chant all day and I don’t get out till sometime after 11:00 p.m.” That should be enough to drive home the point that this is going to be an uncomfortable conversation, but if needed add: “I know it is the true church because the spirit tells me so. I know if you prayed about it you would see that it is the only true faith” Of course, you can use any other religion you want just make sure it is something that will come across as weird. The best part is that you copy whatever tactic your Mormon friends employ, testimonies, tears, prayer etc. Make sure you sound as “sure” of your new found faith as they are. Give the knowing nods and assure them that if they knew what you know they would see the truth.

You will enjoy seeing their dazed looks of concern. It is good for a laugh. Of course they may be offended, but then you can point out that they are perfectly willing to share their testimonies so why can’t you? Point out that in the future everyone can keep their religious beliefs to themselves and then no one can be made to feel uncomfortable.

When I have done this (I live in a Mormon town and it happens regularly) most people think I am joking, they get a little uncomfortable and I they usually change the subject. If you say you are Baptist they will think you are serious, if you say you are a Breatharian then they might catch a clue that you are having a little fun with them. So stick with the fringe religions, they usually have a good humorous effect.

Good luck with your Mormon friends, don’t worry about what people with think, life’s too short. If they don’t like it, oh well, find some new friends. In my experience most Mormons have a sense of humor and most know when they have crossed the line. (Especially if you let them know where the line is) If they don’t figure it out on their own you can tell them in a polite but firm way to go to heck.

[Born Free]

I think that the best response is not to get all riled up about it. <snip>

Continue to be friendly...try not to fly off the handle with such concern. <snip>

Be yourself...<snip> That's my advice...I hope that it helps...

How nice!

Why Me, you must have read a different email to me. I saw not one thing that would suggest that Rainangel was at risk of being (1) riled up, (2) unfriendly. She appears to have made a great step forward from being (3) someone other than herself.

Rainagel, I won't offer my unsolicited advice, but I will tell you what I responded to in your story. I heard you saying you made a giant leap forward today in the ongoing journey to personal authenticity, to live your life, your way and with your feelings expressed honestly. In short I heard a story of you being more spiritual (life-full).

Go for it gal!

Why Me, WTF is it with all this riled up and flying off the handle s#it? Where do you pluck this stuff from?

Daryl

[why me]

How nice!

Why Me, you must have read a different email to me. I saw not one thing that would suggest that Rainangel was at risk of being (1) riled up, (2) unfriendly. She appears to have made a great step forward from being (3) someone other than herself.

Rainagel, I won't offer my unsolicited advice, but I will tell you what I responded to in your story. I heard you saying you made a giant leap forward today in the ongoing journey to personal authenticity, to live your life, your way and with your feelings expressed honestly. In short I heard a story of you being more spiritual (life-full).

Go for it gal!

Why Me, WTF is it with all this riled up and flying off the handle s#it? Where do you pluck this stuff from?

Daryl
Ahhh...lets see Born Free...where could I have gotten it from? Well...I didn't want rainangel go the route of darkslider and get a gun. And I do have a good memory of free thinker getting all riled up about his exodus and I do recall some other people in this forum getting all riled up also about mo behavior. This is where I got it from. I just advised rainangel not to get riled up and be polite...that is all.

I hope that rainangel understood my comment!

[why me]

Why me. As usual I disagree with you (There was that one time we agreed but then I had to go to the Doctor to get medicated).

It is true you should be nice and polite…blah… blah…blah…, but when you grow weary of that use a sense of humor. For example, when asked “Why don’t you go to church?” –i.e.: Mormon Church- reply “I can’t because I am now a devout Zoroastrian. I go to church at 5:00 a.m and chant all day and I don’t get out till sometime after 11:00 p.m.” That should be enough to drive home the point that this is going to be an uncomfortable conversation, but if needed add: “I know it is the true church because the spirit tells me so. I know if you prayed about it you would see that it is the only true faith” Of course, you can use any other religion you want just make sure it is something that will come across as weird. The best part is that you copy whatever tactic your Mormon friends employ, testimonies, tears, prayer etc. Make sure you sound as “sure” of your new found faith as they are. Give the knowing nods and assure them that if they knew what you know they would see the truth.

You will enjoy seeing their dazed looks of concern. It is good for a laugh. Of course they may be offended, but then you can point out that they are perfectly willing to share their testimonies so why can’t you? Point out that in the future everyone can keep their religious beliefs to themselves and then no one can be made to feel uncomfortable.

When I have done this (I live in a Mormon town and it happens regularly) most people think I am joking, they get a little uncomfortable and I they usually change the subject. If you say you are Baptist they will think you are serious, if you say you are a Breatharian then they might catch a clue that you are having a little fun with them. So stick with the fringe religions, they usually have a good humorous effect.

Good luck with your Mormon friends, don’t worry about what people with think, life’s too short. If they don’t like it, oh well, find some new friends. In my experience most Mormons have a sense of humor and most know when they have crossed the line. (Especially if you let them know where the line is) If they don’t figure it out on their own you can tell them in a polite but firm way to go to heck.
Maybe so but remember you were probably there also a few years ago. Was your behavior any different than a traditional mos behavior when you were a mo?

Maybe you were different but I think that for many on this forum the characteristics were the same as a mo. Postmos had the same traits and characteristics as active mos have now. It can be as if we are looking in the mirror and not liking the view of ourselves way back when during the good ol' days.

Of course I could be wrong about this but I think that it is good to remember who we were in the past in order to show people who are now perhaps just like us a few years ago some understanding. Does this make sense? Doesn't my understanding sound human-centered?

[silverfox]

Ahhh...lets see Born Free...where could I have gotten it from? Well...I didn't want rainangel go the route of darkslider and get a gun. And I do have a good memory of free thinker getting all riled up about his exodus and I do recall some other people in this forum getting all riled up also about mo behavior. This is where I got it from. I just advised rainangel not to get riled up and be polite...that is all.

I hope that rainangel understood my comment!

I believe the reason some Post Mos become so irritated is because most were there at one time just like you mention in your other post.

The key is that we KNOW how insincere most TBMs can be. As TBMs we are trained and persuaded to react and say specific things to specific circumstances. So we don't really know the true intent behind the predictable responses.

Maybe the person is sincere and maybe not. For the most part NOT. Because we have been there we realize that.

Why is it too much to ask for sincerity and respect?

Getting riled up sometimes is very productive. When my TBM FIL makes the predicted statements and calls me to repentence I shoot back. He needs to realize that my opinions, feelings, etc should be respected. Just because he thinks he has the only true church and if you are not TBM you are evil, lost and doomed doesn't give him the right to be disrespectful or feel above me.

[silverfox]

Maybe so but remember you were probably there also a few years ago. Was your behavior any different than a traditional mos behavior when you were a mo?

Maybe you were different but I think that for many on this forum the characteristics were the same as a mo. Postmos had the same traits and characteristics as active mos have now. It can be as if we are looking in the mirror and not liking the view of ourselves way back when during the good ol' days.

Of course I could be wrong about this but I think that it is good to remember who we were in the past in order to show people who are now perhaps just like us a few years ago some understanding. Does this make sense? Doesn't my understanding sound human-centered?

Exactly! And because WE HAVE been there we know exactly how insincere some reactions are. You are missing the point that WE DO UNDERSTAND!!!

When I was TBM and acted in this manner I WISH someone would have called me on it. I may have gotten out of the Mo crap much sooner. It may have sparked an interest to research sooner and REALLY know what kind of organization I belonged to.

[helemon]

It is likely that I will have more of these experiences (sooner or later), so I guess I am just wondering if any of you have had experiences like this and want to share so I can feel a little comfort.

My closest experiences have been in trying to discuss my concerns with the HTs. Most of them just ended up bearing their testimony and not having an explanation. Once a recent convert was brought along. During the course of the conversation this guy started nodding his head in agreement with what I was saying. Needless to say he did not stay assigned to my family. :duh

[rainangel]

Well thanks to those of you who have responded; I really appreciate your comments. I think the main thing is that I was not really prepared to answer their questions because I had never really taken the time to think through what my responses would be to certain questions. This has been good for me because it has given me a chance to think about what some of those answers are, explore how I actually feel about a few things, and decide what, if anything, I would/could share with my TBM friends and family. I hope I don’t have to go as far as rehearsing with anybody, but I think it is good to put some thoughts together, and you all have helped me with that.

Why Me: Thanks for your comments. Daryl was right though, I don’t think I am at risk for “flying off the handle” or anything. I wasn’t upset with these girls at all, and I know their intentions were good.

Peter_Mary: I also keep waiting for the big conversation with members of my family. After I talked with my mom this last summer, I thought the news of my inactivity would spread quickly throughout the extended family and there would be a lot of drama. To my surprise, that hasn’t happened at all. I’m not sure when my mom ended up telling my dad and siblings (if anything) but everything seems pretty normal. My family continues to support me and show love for me (although I’m sure they are worried about me too). I’m not so worried about my family anymore, because I know they will love me no matter what. I guess my concern is just dealing with friends and acquaintances because it’s not worth getting into too deep because somebody will just get their feelings hurt, but at the same time, and need to be honest when people ask me questions. I’m guessing that yesterday was an unusual event, and won’t happen very often, but maybe I should do some role plays, just in case. :D

Meinmachine: This really made me laugh and I promise I will do this at some point. I don’t know that I could do it with a straight face, but I want to try. It would work really well with girls like I spoke with yesterday because they are people I will only see every now and again, so I don’t have to worry about having repeated conversations about it and the look on their faces would be priceless!

Daryl: Thanks for your advice; I really took it to heart. And thanks for your encouragement as always.

rainangel

[rainangel]

I believe the reason some Post Mos become so irritated is because most were there at one time just like you mention in your other post.

The key is that we KNOW how insincere most TBMs can be. As TBMs we are trained and persuaded to react and say specific things to specific circumstances. So we don't really know the true intent behind the predictable responses.

Maybe the person is sincere and maybe not. For the most part NOT. Because we have been there we realize that.

Why is it too much to ask for sincerity and respect?

Getting riled up sometimes is very productive. When my TBM FIL makes the predicted statements and calls me to repentence I shoot back. He needs to realize that my opinions, feelings, etc should be respected. Just because he thinks he has the only true church and if you are not TBM you are evil, lost and doomed doesn't give him the right to be disrespectful or feel above me.

This is exactly how I was feeling. I want to think they were being sincere and really listening to what I was saying, but I know they just (in one way or another) want me to believe what they believe. It's like I know EXACTLY what they are going to say to me before they say it because mormons are trained with the "correct" answers to anyone's questions (especially missionaries, like this women have been). I know they probably are genuinely concerned for me, but it is because they lack understanding. I was once like this! There is no reason to be concerned! And again, that is why it can be so frustrating/irritating.

I really wanted to be honest with them and with myself. One of them asked something about being happy..."Are you happier now than when you were in the church?" I answered with a very firm "yes" and I could actually see the disbelief in her eyes. I told her that I knew it was probably hard for her to understand, but that I am truly and honestly happier and more at peace with my life than I ever was when I was in the church. Whether she believed me or not, at least I know I was being sincere.

rainangel

[lunaverse]

I really wanted to be honest with them and with myself. One of them asked something about being happy..."Are you happier now than when you were in the church?" I answered with a very firm "yes" and I could actually see the disbelief in her eyes. I told her that I knew it was probably hard for her to understand, but that I am truly and honestly happier and more at peace with my life than I ever was when I was in the church. Whether she believed me or not, at least I know I was being sincere.


"If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?"

If I lived in Utah, I'd get that on a bumper sticker. :)

I remember one of my first visits by the missionaries & an HT (they ganged up on me) about a half year after I mentally divorced myself. It was probably about the time my parents had figured it out (what with a non-member guy moving in with me, and all).

The missionaries were asking the standard questions and pointing to the standard scriptures. I'd finish their quotes for them, and I said, "I graduated from Seminary". They seemed surprised. I answered their scriptures with other scriptures and gave them a run for their money. Then one of the elder's gave the Moroni challenge. I said, "I've tried that hundreds of times... it never worked. And I was as sincere as you can get." He looked even more surprised, and then asked, "Well would you try it one more time?"

"No," I replied.

That particular set of mishes never came back. Maybe that's why they rotate them so much, so they never can be in contact with the same disbelievers more than once.

Luna

[Jeff_Ricks]

Exactly! And because WE HAVE been there we know exactly how insincere some reactions are. You are missing the point that WE DO UNDERSTAND!!!

When I was TBM and acted in this manner I WISH someone would have called me on it. I may have gotten out of the Mo crap much sooner. It may have sparked an interest to research sooner and REALLY know what kind of organization I belonged to.
I think the typical TMB response is actually a defensive one. I think their attempts to help non-believer back into the church are motivated less by a concern for the non-believer and more a concern for themselves. I think when someone leaves it challenges their faith because I think every TBM, even the most TBM-est TBM has doubts, and when someone leaves it reinforces those doubts. So, thy try everything they can think of to get the non-believer to believe again. If that doesn't work then they generally steer clear of them from then on. That's been my experience. So, I agree that we should try to remember how we thought as a TBM and factor that in when talking with TBMs but, I don’t think that I really understood when I was a TBM that I had doubts. They were there all the time but deeply repressed.

Jeff

[flotsam]

What an interesting encounter. I live so far away from anywhere I grew up that it is very unlikely that I'll have one of these conversations any time soon. But sometimes I think about what would happen if I met up with an old mission companion or something.

I've changed so much, that I assume he would have changed a lot too. So hopefully I'd spend our time together listening to who he is now, rather than trying to impress my knowledge of the previous him on the current him.

That's what I try to do with my mom. It's hard since she was the main force in my perceptions of Mormonism. I just assume that she'll always be the faithful little Molly Mormon I grew up watching. Full of faith and cookbooks.

So during my more recent visits I've tried to look for other interpretations for her behavior. And, blessedly, during my last visit, she didn't foist a corrective testimony on me once (directly anyway), though she continues to gush in the family news letters.

But, yeah. When I was a TBM, I would have been majorly distraught by a friend who left the church. It's like being betrayed by that person. They've taken the very foundations of the universe and kicked them over. Naturally you want to help them set them back up.

[why me]

I think the typical TMB response is actually a defensive one. I think their attempts to help non-believer back into the church are motivated less by a concern for the non-believer and more a concern for themselves. I think when someone leaves it challenges their faith because I think every TBM, even the most TBM-est TBM has doubts, and when someone leaves it reinforces those doubts. So, thy try everything they can think of to get the non-believer to believe again. If that doesn't work then they generally steer clear of them from then on. That's been my experience. So, I agree that we should try to remember how we thought as a TBM and factor that in when talking with TBMs but, I don’t think that I really understood when I was a TBM that I had doubts. They were there all the time but deeply repressed.

Jeff
I am glad that my post generated some sort of discussion. Perhaps you are right in some cases but in all cases.

In my opinion the reaction is not defensive at all but rather a genuine concern. I don't think that most mos feel defensive.

You see, Jeff, it is the last days and such fallings away go with the turf. This is nothing to be defensive about but rather to guard against. This is the logic of an active LDS member. Of course this is only my opinion in the matter. I have not yet seen a single mo act defensive...the last days though...that is in the mind for sure, I think.

[peter_mary]

But, yeah. When I was a TBM, I would have been majorly distraught by a friend who left the church. It's like being betrayed by that person. They've taken the very foundations of the universe and kicked them over. Naturally you want to help them set them back up.
Not only are they/were we inclined to feel like you've had your foundation knocked out from underneath, but I also believe there is a sense of personal rejection on their part, as well.

This is the part I want to talk to my wife's family about. When we rejected the Church, we were not rejecting them...or frankly, neither were we rejecting very many Mormons (a few, but not many ;) ). But Mormonism defines more than a belief system. It also defines an entire way of being, not just in a community, but also a way of being in a family. When you reject that way of being, those who don't know how to "be" any other way feel likewise rejected.

How can I reject that which is most sacred to someone, and have them not wonder if I judge them for accepting it and believing in it? If we are strangers, and they are healthy, then I think they can shrug it off and assume this is my problem. But when they are dear friends, old mission companions, and worst of all, your family, shrugging it off becomes much more difficult...and maybe impossible.

I know my mom felt rejected when I joined the Church (she's a never-mo). I can only assume that my wife's family feels rejected now that we've left it.

And that's a little tough on family relations, know what I mean, Vern?

Peter_Mary

[why me]

I believe the reason some Post Mos become so irritated is because most were there at one time just like you mention in your other post.

The key is that we KNOW how insincere most TBMs can be. As TBMs we are trained and persuaded to react and say specific things to specific circumstances. So we don't really know the true intent behind the predictable responses.

Maybe the person is sincere and maybe not. For the most part NOT. Because we have been there we realize that.

Why is it too much to ask for sincerity and respect?

Getting riled up sometimes is very productive. When my TBM FIL makes the predicted statements and calls me to repentence I shoot back. He needs to realize that my opinions, feelings, etc should be respected. Just because he thinks he has the only true church and if you are not TBM you are evil, lost and doomed doesn't give him the right to be disrespectful or feel above me.
You see silverfox, your post was rather judgemental. I cannot say that this is the case for all mos. Maybe the Utah mos. If there is a disrespectful mo, then I say yes, put that person in place. A good mo should not be judgemental.

However, there could also be genuine concern...and this geniune concern should be set apart from the disrespectful or insincere concern. I always think to give people the benefit of doubt. And after all...it is not for me to judge who is geniune and who is not.

A person is only a person...and most of the time...people can be cruds anyway...mo or not. I think that we are living through a superficial age.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I am glad that my post generated some sort of discussion. Perhaps you are right in some cases but in all cases.

In my opinion the reaction is not defensive at all but rather a genuine concern. I don't think that most mos feel defensive.

You see, Jeff, it is the last days and such fallings away go with the turf. This is nothing to be defensive about but rather to guard against. This is the logic of an active LDS member. Of course this is only my opinion in the matter. I have not yet seen a single mo act defensive...the last days though...that is in the mind for sure, I think.
Several years ago I had an in-the-bishopric brother rake me over the coals at a family Thanksgiving get together. He told me how I was leading my family down to hell and all that because I left the church. A year or two later, again at Thanksgiving he called me off to the side and apologized for his previous behavior and with tears in his eyes admitted that his reaction was more out of concern for how my leaving caused him to have to rethink his beliefs (and that made him very uncomfortable) than out of concern for me. I admired him for his honesty. I'll admit that there are some who show genuine concern but I suspect in most cases that there's a good deal of defensiveness behind their reactions... especially in cases where they show strong reactions.

Jeff

[free thinker]

A person is only a person...and most of the time...people can be cruds anyway...mo or not. I think that we are living through a superficial age

You may be correct about this. I would add that being in the church is also somewhat superficial. It is, in my opinion, a church that must hide or gloss it's history. This creates an unreal superficial enviroment.

free thinker

[noodle]

Each Christmas I get a really artistic homemade Christmas letter/card from one of the sister missionaries who taught me the lessons. There is always a detailed (and I'm talking DETAILED!) rundown of what each of their callings are - and they thank HF for the gospel, etc. It is dripping with testimony stuff. I usually send her a card, but of course, make no comment about the church. I have always wondered what I would say if we met face to face again. :confused:

[Born Free]

Ahhh...lets see Born Free...where could I have gotten it from? Well...I didn't want rainangel go the route of darkslider and get a gun. And I do have a good memory of free thinker getting all riled up about his exodus and I do recall some other people in this forum getting all riled up also about mo behavior. This is where I got it from. I just advised rainangel not to get riled up and be polite...that is all.

I hope that rainangel understood my comment!

:duh Wow! How did I miss it?

Of course. All the time, Rainangel was just a time-bomb waiting to go off! The slightest provocation and she'd be off to buy a half dozen AK47s. You are so perceptive. She does seem like she suppresses a lot of violent tendencies to me, now that you point it out!

How could I be so blind? Just jokin' :D

Daryl

[david]

I think the typical TMB response is actually a defensive one. I think their attempts to help non-believer back into the church are motivated less by a concern for the non-believer and more a concern for themselves.

Jeff

This is so true. I recently, for fun, visited a mormon historical site. The "guide" was nice older missionary and after the tour he engaged me in conversation, asking if I was a member. When I told him I had been raised in the church but had resigned many years ago, he responded with a heartfelt "I'm so sorry to hear that."

I was certainly flabbergasted by this. It made as much sense to me as if he had said "I'm so sorry to hear you won the lottery" or "I'm so sorry to hear you escaped after being held hostage by terrorists." Come again?

But I later realized that what he really meant was "I'm sorry for me." :duh Well, I"m sorry for you too.