Definitions...

[lunaverse]

Miss Taken requested definitions, so I've cranked out a hopefully helpful page declaring what I (and secular researchers) mean when we say "cult", "mind control", "brainwashing", and all that.

It might be useful if any of you decide to tackle the more lengthy BITE paper.

It will especially be useful if you are not reading my papers, but just listening to be prattle on and on about how cultish Mormonism is. Then you should understand a little better what context I'm coming from.

Like Bill Cosby said to his dentist: "What do you mean by 'Oops'!? I know what I mean when I say 'oops'..."

What is a Cult? (http://www.rationalrevelation.com/library/cultdefinition.html)

Luna

[noodle]

Excellent (!) Luna. :) Very well-done, my friend.

mamajama

[bigeddy]

Luna,
Thank you for this post. It helps much to have a basis for some of the discussions regarding this type topic. I see so often the tendency to stray into arguments that center around definitions rather than realities. Having an accurate way to define this topic can help prevent wranglings over semantics.

I am reminded of some posts I read the other day on the forum. Members were discussing whether Moism is a cult and the results were predictable--hassles about defintions. If we focus, as you pointed out in the paper, on the tactics used to persuade, rather than our emotional responses to the accusation of cultism we can be more productive.

I especially noted a post by Why-me. He stated something to the effect that Moism is not a cult and that people who have trouble leaving are suffering because they had a "testimony". I get such a kick out of the use of that word. It is a perfect example of the esoteric nature of words used in a way to persuade. I wanted to respond at that time but I was too rushed to do so.

People often criticize me and state that I have "lost my testimony." What a joke! A testimony is that to which I can testify. I never lost my testimony. I have much to which I can testify. As momos use the term Testimony (with a capital T) it is some special type knowledge that is withheld from the "evil" people. This is pure cult persuasive tactic.

I also liked how you point out that cult practice has the effect of moving people from individual thought to a "group pseudopersonality". I often joke that BYU needs a new name--"The Provo Center for Moral Inbreeding". The effect is to create or reinforce this group pseudopersonality. It is also the reason I tell my students that BYU should not be called a University. (Hence the need for a new name.) My job in teaching at a University is to help present the entire universe to students and let them confront some realities and decide for themselves. I do not have the right (no one does) to decide that an adult college student cannot be exposed to some aspects of the universe. This is, again, that control of information that is part of the cultic method.

Moism is clearly a cult and operates to establish and reinforce the group pseudopersonality. THe condition I find in which people struggle most to leave it is when they have the pseudopersonality so strongly established that they have no way to relate to what a healthy personality structure really is. Those of us who were raised in it did not have our personality changed into the pseudo form; we never had the opportunity to develop a real personality or to see one modeled for us. It is not that we had a Testimony--we had no sense of person.

Ed

[lunaverse]

I especially noted a post by Why-me. He stated something to the effect that Moism is not a cult and that people who have trouble leaving are suffering because they had a "testimony". I get such a kick out of the use of that word. It is a perfect example of the esoteric nature of words used in a way to persuade. I wanted to respond at that time but I was too rushed to do so.

People often criticize me and state that I have "lost my testimony." What a joke! A testimony is that to which I can testify. I never lost my testimony. I have much to which I can testify. As momos use the term Testimony (with a capital T) it is some special type knowledge that is withheld from the "evil" people. This is pure cult persuasive tactic.

Absolutely. This is what is known as "loaded language", words used differently than the rest of society uses them. It causes a blockage of thought and misunderstandings. Some cults do this so badly that a person has very real trouble integrating into society, because everything they say is detached gibberish. They have to re-learn English.

Moism is clearly a cult and operates to establish and reinforce the group pseudopersonality. THe condition I find in which people struggle most to leave it is when they have the pseudopersonality so strongly established that they have no way to relate to what a healthy personality structure really is. Those of us who were raised in it did not have our personality changed into the pseudo form; we never had the opportunity to develop a real personality or to see one modeled for us. It is not that we had a Testimony--we had no sense of person.

Yes, this is still an anger-point for me. Everytime I read that recovery involves merging the pre-cult with the in-cult personality... Grrr!! I never had a pre-cult personality. I don't know who I *really* am!

I do know to some extent. I can tell, the times I'm doing what I please and feel joy -- that's the real me, and it happens frequently enough. But there are aspects of my personality that I see as hangups, and they're frustratingly difficult to overcome.

Am I an introvert because of Mormonism, or did Mormonism exacerbate my natural temperment? Probably the latter, to the point where I sometimes still feel real fear when I'm in crowds and avoid going out for fun as often as possible. I like holing up at home, but I also wish I liked adventuring a little more.

Am I socially submissive naturally, or did Mormnism make me this way? I'm sure the latter. My parents raised me with conflicting values -- I was intelligent and could do anything I wanted. Yet I was also a girl (with all that implies), and I also had to obey them and Church leaders in every possible way. I ended up following the last teaching more than the first. It caused me to get married early, have a baby, get divorced, and quickly jump into the first career that could support me, rather than follow my many dreams.

And now I tend to defer to authority. Standing up for myself is a real struggle, especially if I'm not feeling at my best. I causes me to be pushed around at work and in other social settings.

I've overcome these things to a very great extent. It's easier for me to assert myself now, and I do it more frequently. But it's still natural to consider the comforts of others over my own, in spite of my firey objectivist philosophies and fierce theoretical individualism.

I'd like to see some studies done involving the MBTI and Mormons/ex-Mormons. I think it would be very elucidating. I've thought of running an informal survey here, but it's going to take a bit of effort to set up. :)

Luna

[miss taken]

Luna,
Thank you for this post. It helps much to have a basis for some of the discussions regarding this type topic. I see so often the tendency to stray into arguments that center around definitions rather than realities. Having an accurate way to define this topic can help prevent wranglings over semantics.

I am reminded of some posts I read the other day on the forum. Members were discussing whether Moism is a cult and the results were predictable--hassles about defintions. If we focus, as you pointed out in the paper, on the tactics used to persuade, rather than our emotional responses to the accusation of cultism we can be more productive.

I especially noted a post by Why-me. He stated something to the effect that Moism is not a cult and that people who have trouble leaving are suffering because they had a "testimony". I get such a kick out of the use of that word. It is a perfect example of the esoteric nature of words used in a way to persuade. I wanted to respond at that time but I was too rushed to do so.

People often criticize me and state that I have "lost my testimony." What a joke! A testimony is that to which I can testify. I never lost my testimony. I have much to which I can testify. As momos use the term Testimony (with a capital T) it is some special type knowledge that is withheld from the "evil" people. This is pure cult persuasive tactic.

I also liked how you point out that cult practice has the effect of moving people from individual thought to a "group pseudopersonality". I often joke that BYU needs a new name--"The Provo Center for Moral Inbreeding". The effect is to create or reinforce this group pseudopersonality. It is also the reason I tell my students that BYU should not be called a University. (Hence the need for a new name.) My job in teaching at a University is to help present the entire universe to students and let them confront some realities and decide for themselves. I do not have the right (no one does) to decide that an adult college student cannot be exposed to some aspects of the universe. This is, again, that control of information that is part of the cultic method.

Moism is clearly a cult and operates to establish and reinforce the group pseudopersonality. THe condition I find in which people struggle most to leave it is when they have the pseudopersonality so strongly established that they have no way to relate to what a healthy personality structure really is. Those of us who were raised in it did not have our personality changed into the pseudo form; we never had the opportunity to develop a real personality or to see one modeled for us. It is not that we had a Testimony--we had no sense of person.

Ed


Really, really good points Big Ed.
Darn it, I wish I could express myself as succinctly as a lot of you guys seem to be able to do. I think Luna's definitions were great, and give a really good framework.

Over on the FAIR boards, the thread on cult and brainwashing, just became a battering ram for the negative connotations of the titles, and then went in to personal attacks, rather than dealing with any of the issues or techniques used.

Mary

[lunaverse]

Over on the FAIR boards, the thread on cult and brainwashing, just became a battering ram for the negative connotations of the titles, and then went in to personal attacks, rather than dealing with any of the issues or techniques used.


Maybe someone should sneak some of these links over to them. ;)

Luna

[free thinker]

Over on the FAIR boards, the thread on cult and brainwashing, just became a battering ram for the negative connotations of the titles, and then went in to personal attacks, rather than dealing with any of the issues or techniques used.

Mary


Mary

Here is what FAIR really stands for.

F- Figure out how to stay in.
A-After you realize mormonism is a fraud.
I-Intentions are good .
R-Ridiculous mental gymnastics employed.


IMHO they do not really want to know the truth. They want to reinforce their beliefs

It is different here. Many here face the pain of letting a world veiw fall to the ground. Experience the sadness, fear, or whatever accompanies the departure.

I doubt seriously you hear much of that going on over there.

free thinker

[miss taken]

Over on the FAIR boards, the thread on cult and brainwashing, just became a battering ram for the negative connotations of the titles, and then went in to personal attacks, rather than dealing with any of the issues or techniques used.

Mary


Mary

Here is what FAIR really stands for.

F- Figure out how to stay in.
A-After you realize mormonism is a fraud.
I-Intentions are good .
R-Ridiculous mental gymnastics employed.


IMHO they do not really want to know the truth. They want to reinforce their beliefs

It is different here. Many here face the pain of letting a world veiw fall to the ground. Experience the sadness, fear, or whatever accompanies the departure.

I doubt seriously you hear much of that going on over there.

free thinker#


Hey Free Thinker!!!
They sincerely believe it though. A guy called Redman posted over there (a doctor in training I think). It was soooo interesting to see how both inactive, ex, and LDS responded to him...

Some were very kind, some wished him well on his path, and some were.....hey what are you doing to your wife....how could you....etc. Some are now trying to question his motives.. Really difficult. But there were some very open minded and liberal members who understood where he was coming from.

I quite enjoy it over there.. I don't know why, because I don't know that I could ever, ever return to full activity. I would be regarded as an apostate, heretic, and would not fit in I know that...!!! But some of the people know their stuff. A lady called Juliann, can be a real terrier sometimes, but she also knows her stuff, particularly early christianity, and she will haul even the most active members over the coals if she feels that they are being arrogant or pretentious. I have got to like her..

I have been called quite a few names over there, which is something I don't get over here. People aren't so judgemental of me here.

Mary