Mormons not Christians

[tjohnson]

I recently heard about another religion that was teaching about the Mormon culture. One of the comments made was Mormons are not Christians because of two reasons:

(1) They teach things that contradict the Bible. (the LDS response is the Bible was not translated correctly until Joe got to it).

(2) By definition, a Christian can be saved simply by having faith in Jesus Christ. (opposite of the LDS saying "faith without works is dead").

Does this sound reasonable? The more I start digging around, the more I am amazed about the things the church would focus on for months and years at a time, and yet while being LDS they seemed OK. Such as:

"The church is NOT based on Joseph Smith. We are followers of Jesus Christ. We even have his name as the title of our Church." (obviously this was a time when the church was taking pressure about the focus of Joe in all the manuals, etc.)

I'm sure there are many others that can be added... so let's get it started. :)

Travis

[wescape]

Hi Travis,

The first item you mentioned definitely illustrates the fact that Mormons are not Christians. They teach doctrine that is in complete contradiction to what is in the Bible. infact, they preachg a different Jesus and a diifferent gospel than the one found in the Bible. The second item you mentioned sort of illustrates a big difference but needs more clarification. Mormons teach that a person must do everything they can in addition to what Christ has already done whereas Christians believe that Christ's death on the cross was sufficient. The whole faith without works is dead is where it gets tricky. That verse is found in the Bible but Mormons interpret it differently. The best way to explain it is the motive of the works. Mormons do works to try and earn their salvation whereas Christians do works out of gratitude for salvation. There are many other things that distinguish Mormonism from Christianity. Is that what you wanted this thread to be about? Just wanted to clarify that I understood your question before answering.

[Born Free]

I recently heard about another religion that was teaching about the Mormon culture. One of the comments made was Mormons are not Christians because of two reasons:

(1) They teach things that contradict the Bible. (the LDS response is the Bible was not translated correctly until Joe got to it).

(2) By definition, a Christian can be saved simply by having faith in Jesus Christ. (opposite of the LDS saying "faith without works is dead").

Does this sound reasonable? The more I start digging around, the more I am amazed about the things the church would focus on for months and years at a time, and yet while being LDS they seemed OK. Such as:

"The church is NOT based on Joseph Smith. We are followers of Jesus Christ. We even have his name as the title of our Church." (obviously this was a time when the church was taking pressure about the focus of Joe in all the manuals, etc.)

I'm sure there are many others that can be added... so let's get it started. :)

Travis


Travis,

IMO, anyone who launches an attack upon Mormonism because of Mormon contradiction of Biblical teaching, has got problems before they start. Most Christians have never taken the time to check out the massive contradictions in the Bible itself. Just because it has been around a long time does not mean it does not have serious problems, and that is before one starts on the dispirate interpretations placed on what the Bible contains.

I am no fan of Mormonism, and acknowledge it has massive problems, but to overlook the problems inherent in the Bible runs a serious risk of hypocricy, or ignorance or both; not to mention focusing on the 'neighbours splinter while ignoring ones own beam'.

An interesting place to start a check is Richard Packhams website - re Bible problems at http://home.teleport.com/~packham/bible.htm

That said, it is a full time job observing Mormonism reinventing itself, to make itself less offensive to the mainstream. Maybe we should call it Morphanism! :eek:

Daryl

[Jeff_Ricks]

Travis,

IMO, anyone who launches an attack upon Mormonism because of Mormon contradiction of Biblical teaching, has got problems before they start. Most Christians have never taken the time to check out the massive contradictions in the Bible itself. Just because it has been around a long time does not mean it does not have serious problems, and that is before one starts on the dispirate interpretations placed on what the Bible contains.

I am no fan of Mormonism, and acknowledge it has massive problems, but to overlook the problems inherent in the Bible runs a serious risk of hypocricy, or ignorance or both; not to mention focusing on the 'neighbours splinter while ignoring ones own beam'.

An interesting place to start a check is Richard Packhams website - re Bible problems at http://home.teleport.com/~packham/bible.htm

That said, it is a full time job observing Mormonism reinventing itself, to make itself less offensive to the mainstream. Maybe we should call it Morphanism! :eek:

Daryl


Morphanism! I seriously love it! Let's call it their "new name."

Jeff

[michael]

Hi Travis-

It seems to me that Christianity is in the eye of the beholder. Many different definitions exist. What they seem to have in common is that the believers offering the definition find themselves to be more Christian than others. It is a way of drawing boundaries between groups, with the implication that one's own group is more right (Christian) than other groups.

~michael

[Jeff_Ricks]

Hi Travis-

It seems to me that Christianity is in the eye of the beholder. Many different definitions exist. What they seem to have in common is that the believers offering the definition find themselves to be more Christian than others. It is a way of drawing boundaries between groups, with the implication that one's own group is more right (Christian) than other groups.

~michael

I agree. That's the problem I have with religion in general. It's the “I'm right, you’re wrong syndrome" that in some cases is admittedly more like, “I'm right and you're right... but I'm more right than you." Either way it comes down to the same thing. Such a view creates arrogance, elitism and bigotry and in the extreme leads to hatred, contention, divisiveness, oppression and bloodshed.

I don't like it… any of it.

Show me a religion that doesn’t have as a component of its belief system the “I’m right, you’re wrong syndrome” and I’ll bet that it’s not really a religion at all but is a social group.

Jeff

[peter_mary]

Hi Travis-

It seems to me that Christianity is in the eye of the beholder. Many different definitions exist. What they seem to have in common is that the believers offering the definition find themselves to be more Christian than others. It is a way of drawing boundaries between groups, with the implication that one's own group is more right (Christian) than other groups.

~michael

For me, it's a matter of splitting hairs. The Christian world is hardly united in how THEY define christianity, and to exclude a body of people who "believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ" because they believe "differently" seems like elitism, no different than the Mormons saying, "You may be Christian, but you're not FULLY Christian...just us." It's all the same in my book, and like Jeff said, it's just one more way to say, "We're right, you're wrong, so we're in and you're out." Perhaps if the Mormons hadn't been so bold about being the 'one-true-only' Church, then the Christian world wouldn't be so committed to saying, "Oh no you're not!" It's bickering is all it is.

There are a million and one ways to define a Christian, and ultimately, it's a personal choice. If a Mormon says, "I'm Christian," then who am I to say you're not just because you define that association somewhat differently than I do by virtue of a different belief set? Here's the bottom line. It's a matter of faith, not proof, and anyone who claims otherwise is a fool (sorry if that seems too strong for anyone). Christians can no more "prove" that their belief set is "true" than can a Mormon.

I also think it's nonsense, personally, when a Christian says, "They worship a Different God and a Different Jesus." No they don't. They just understand those two "ideas" differently, but they aren't Different dieties. Mormons have as much claim to the gods of the bible as Christians. They just understand them differently, that's all.

And that's the gosepl according to THIS Paul ;)

[wescape]

Hi Travis,

I just wanted to clarify a few things from my reply to your post. The main point I wanted to make was that their are serious differences in several essential doctrines that distinguish Mormonism from traditional Christian thought. Within Christianity there are "in-house debates" about various non-essential doctrines but it is the essential ones that differentiate who would be considered a Christian and who would not.

Clearly, several others on this thread have very strong feelings about the matter and I think they make good points. I have to agree that many who claim to be Christians (including myself) have misrepresented the gospel of Christ at different times and have communicated it in a way that Jesus did not. We are deeply in need of grace. The whole "I'm right and you're wrong" thing has been the main thing that people identify with Christians and that is very sad and very telling of our failure to show the love of Christ. What needs to be communicated in my view is that we're wrong too in profound ways. I don't believe that Jesus came to set up a dichotomy of "us and them" but unfortunately many of us as his followers throughout history and presently have done exactly that.

Another thought I had was regarding religion versus relationship. It seems to me that there is a pretty big difference. To me, religions are man-made systems that are an attempt to somehow get to God. As someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, I have never been a fan of religious organizations. My view of Christianity is that it is in actuality a relationship with God and not a religion because Christ came to us rather than the opposite.

Just my thoughts, :)
Wes

[Jeff_Ricks]

Hi Travis,

I just wanted to clarify a few things from my reply to your post. The main point I wanted to make was that their are serious differences in several essential doctrines that distinguish Mormonism from traditional Christian thought. Within Christianity there are "in-house debates" about various non-essential doctrines but it is the essential ones that differentiate who would be considered a Christian and who would not.

Clearly, several others on this thread have very strong feelings about the matter and I think they make good points. I have to agree that many who claim to be Christians (including myself) have misrepresented the gospel of Christ at different times and have communicated it in a way that Jesus did not. We are deeply in need of grace. The whole "I'm right and you're wrong" thing has been the main thing that people identify with Christians and that is very sad and very telling of our failure to show the love of Christ. What needs to be communicated in my view is that we're wrong too in profound ways. I don't believe that Jesus came to set up a dichotomy of "us and them" but unfortunately many of us as his followers throughout history and presently have done exactly that.

Another thought I had was regarding religion versus relationship. It seems to me that there is a pretty big difference. To me, religions are man-made systems that are an attempt to somehow get to God. As someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, I have never been a fan of religious organizations. My view of Christianity is that it is in actuality a relationship with God and not a religion because Christ came to us rather than the opposite.

Just my thoughts, :)
Wes


I appreciate your views Wes and I admire your honesty about an aspect of Christianity. I don’t want to beat a dead horse and I don’t want to alienate you but I feel I must offer my point of view. It is only my point of view and not to be construed as representative of anything beyond that.

I admire your honesty for acknowledging the fragmented nature of the Christian community as a whole. In your words, “The whole ‘I'm right and you're wrong’ thing has been the main thing that people identify with Christians and that is very sad and very telling of our failure to show the love of Christ.” Perhaps you didn’t intend to imply that the Christian community is fragmented but that’s how I read it. Nevertheless, they are fragmented. Perhaps a more palatable way to say it is that there are many differing denominations, but slice it any way imaginable and it’s still the same. Christianity as a whole is fragmented.

I don’t see it as a failure of the people, an excuse often used by Mormons who see problems within Mormonism but still cling to the belief that the Church is true. I see it as a problem with the basic paradigm of Christianity -- that there is one way to be saved and that way is Jesus. All other ways are wrong. It’s the same old, “I’m right, you’re wrong syndrome.” It appears that the problem should be blamed on Jesus himself who promoted a divisive, elitist gospel that is founded on the doctrine of, I’m right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. You can blame Jesus, Wes. It appears that the buck stops with him.

The question arises, then who is right? And the good news appears for all the world to me to be, no one! No one is right!

Why do I call that good news? Because where does it leave us? It leaves all in the same boat. We are forced to realize that if this boat’s going to stay afloat for us and primarily for our posterity then we’d better work together. We HAVE to work together. No more punching holes in the boat by flying planes into buildings. No more punching more holes in the boat with “Shock and Awe” campaigns. No more ignoring the holes while arguing believers can’t agree on how to fix it.

Back to Jesus. Relative to Christianity Jesus and no one and nothing else is the root cause of the problem. When the Jesus part of Christianity is gone then we have hope of getting rid of the “I’m right, you’re wrong syndrome.” As long as Jesus stays the syndrome stays. It’s as simple as that (IMHO).

Then who will be our savior? My answer is why do we need one? I see people getting along fine without one. In fact, my experience with non-believers is that they get along better without the notion that they need a savior. Why? Because they realize we’re all in the same boat.

I’d like to share my views on the purpose of life. I think there is a very obvious purpose of life and that purpose as I see it is simply to experience it and enjoy it. So I say, let’s make this little blue boat drifting in the Milky Way Galaxy as enjoyable as we can... for all of us! Works for me! Would that be such a terrible thing?

Jesus and all the other would-be saviors will have to find another boat though. They seem to be the cause of too much trouble in this one.

Jeff

[wescape]

Jeff,

Thanks for sharing how you feel about this issue. I agree that in many ways the Christian community is fragmented, so you were correct in articulating how I feel about that.

As for the issue of Jesus himself being the cause of the "I'm right, you're wrong" syndrome, I see your point. Ultimately it does come down to the claims he made and whether or not they were true. For those who think his claims are true, a more accurate way to put it might be "Jesus is God and everyone else is not." Of course, this is not how most Christians communicate it. Instead, we personalize it and say "I'm right, you're wrong" when the issue really, as you correctly pointed out, is with Jesus himself. Either his claims were true or they are not and if they were false then he was either a deluded lunatic or just a liar and anyone who believes in him has been duped. So in that sense I would have to agree that Jesus is the one to take issue with and not his followers.

While I happen to be one of those who believes that the claims of Jesus are true I still agree with you Jeff that in many ways we are all in the same boat. In this case, the only difference in my mind is that some people believe what Jesus said and others do not. That doesn't change the fact that we're still all wrong in my opinion and I see no reason why we can't all work together in the way you are suggesting. We may still disagree about whether or not we are in need of a savior but people can disagree about many things and still work together towards creating a more just and civil world.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this and I hope mine have been in the direction of unity rather than division. :)

Wes

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff,

Thanks for sharing how you feel about this issue. I agree that in many ways the Christian community is fragmented, so you were correct in articulating how I feel about that.

As for the issue of Jesus himself being the cause of the "I'm right, you're wrong" syndrome, I see your point. Ultimately it does come down to the claims he made and whether or not they were true. For those who think his claims are true, a more accurate way to put it might be "Jesus is God and everyone else is not." Of course, this is not how most Christians communicate it. Instead, we personalize it and say "I'm right, you're wrong" when the issue really, as you correctly pointed out, is with Jesus himself. Either his claims were true or they are not and if they were false then he was either a deluded lunatic or just a liar and anyone who believes in him has been duped. So in that sense I would have to agree that Jesus is the one to take issue with and not his followers.

While I happen to be one of those who believes that the claims of Jesus are true I still agree with you Jeff that in many ways we are all in the same boat. In this case, the only difference in my mind is that some people believe what Jesus said and others do not. That doesn't change the fact that we're still all wrong in my opinion and I see no reason why we can't all work together in the way you are suggesting. We may still disagree about whether or not we are in need of a savior but people can disagree about many things and still work together towards creating a more just and civil world.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this and I hope mine have been in the direction of unity rather than division. :)

Wes

I admire you for your honesty Wes.

Jeff

[pokatator]

[QUOTE=tjohnson]I recently heard about another religion that was teaching about the Mormon culture. One of the comments made was Mormons are not Christians because of two reasons:

(1) They teach things that contradict the Bible. (the LDS response is the Bible was not translated correctly until Joe got to it).

(2) By definition, a Christian can be saved simply by having faith in Jesus Christ. (opposite of the LDS saying "faith without works is dead").

The Mormon cult-ure just plain offends most all Christians.

(1) Man can become God. Very contrary even to the 1st commandment. Lucifer the "fallen angel's" first motive and desire, and the lie is expoited in the Mormon temples.

(2) Satan and Jesus brothers? A fallen angel equal to God?

(3) Joseph Smith equal to Jesus at the Judgement Day?

This list could go on for a long time, but I think these are the first big Mormon cult-ures that offend the core of Christians.

Randy

[nikki]

[QUOTE=tjohnson]I recently heard about another religion that was teaching about the Mormon culture. One of the comments made was Mormons are not Christians because of two reasons:

(1) They teach things that contradict the Bible. (the LDS response is the Bible was not translated correctly until Joe got to it).

(2) By definition, a Christian can be saved simply by having faith in Jesus Christ. (opposite of the LDS saying "faith without works is dead").

The Mormon cult-ure just plain offends most all Christians.

(1) Man can become God. Very contrary even to the 1st commandment. Lucifer the "fallen angel's" first motive and desire, and the lie is expoited in the Mormon temples.

(2) Satan and Jesus brothers? A fallen angel equal to God?

(3) Joseph Smith equal to Jesus at the Judgement Day?

This list could go on for a long time, but I think these are the first big Mormon cult-ures that offend the core of Christians.

Randy

I have to agree with you, most mainstream Christian's do not believe that Mormon's are Christian. Christian's do not believe in modern day revelations, they do not believe in modern day prophets, eternal marriage, baptizm done for the dead, the temple ceremony, the BoM, and the God/Adam teaching would fly in the face of Christianity. Many Christian's still see the LDS faith as a cult.

I know the church is trying to make itself into a mainstream christian faith, but they may only be making headway with the religious leadership and not many of the membership.

If Martha Beck's book is read by them and they learn of the temple rites and other items, the Christian's will only see it as futher evidence the Chruch as a cult, even with the efforts of the LDS Church to look main stream

With the addition of the DNA testing and other information coming forward, when and if mainstream minister's get a hold of the information, it will only add to the feeling.

If reader's note in the above two paragraphs it is noted which will appeal more to the general christian population, as well as to the minister population, and well read Christian's.

The LDS Church acceptance has more to do with the money they have, and the Utah voter for 'moral issues' than some mainstream faiths feeling Mormon's are not a cult.

The church has wisely put a spin on promting family values, and not the reality of the state of the Mormon family, and the Mormon belief system, making the LDS Church more acceptable. Smoke and Mirrors.