Tea Drinking

[Fredl]

I feel that I should probably apologize for some of the topics I introduce; they are not very related to Mormonism or the many quite justified topics refuting it. The problem is that I've come to a place where I'm not very interested in the Mormon Church. It has become so obvious to me that J. Smith was deluded and that his claims to know the history of the Americas prior to their European discovery as well as the nature and will of God were simply fantasies that I've just pretty well lost interest in them and their author.

What has come to interest me is CCTV (Central China TV). Last night, they featured an interview with Fidel Ramos, former President of the Philippines, a piece on a srange new snake that seems to be related to Coral snakes but eludes identification and a piece on a province that produces a lot of tea. As well as much else. I won't bore you with details of the first two pieces except to say that for any of you that think of Filipinos as childlike little brown people lacking in substance and generally pretty unimpressive, you should have seen Ramos. This is a man who finished 3rd in his class at the US Military Academy (West Point), is generally regarded as the best President the Phillipines ever had and is a very significant international statesman at this time. My wife watched that piece with me; she's related to him.

Anyway, in addition to this piece, there was a very nice one on growing tea in some province whose name I quickly forgot and the place of tea in many societies of the world. It got me to thinking: among the many victims of Mormon intolerance, tea certainly must rank high on the list. Tea drinking is one of the worlds great bonding agents, a synonym for quiet, reflective periods in which people withdraw from the hustle and bustle of the everyday world into a time of quiet and reflection. This may be solitary or a social activity, but I think it is uniquely beneficial to the human soul. To have tscc label this as an offence to God is, in my mind at least, a real abomination.

I intend definitely to have Iced Tea with my lunch today and will do it not just because I enjoy it, not just as an act of defiance towards tscc, but as a gesture of fellowship towards my fellow PMs!

Fred

[dogzilla]

The WOW specifically bans "hot drinks." There's nothing in there about tea, coffee, or colas and definitely nothing about caffeine. It also says not to eat meat unless it's winter or there's a famine going on.

Mormons don't even live the Word of Wisdom (http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/89)... why should you? (Click on "Word of Wisdom" for link directly to actual scripture, courtesy of the Cult.)

I'd say you're perfectly safe with a little iced tea. I'd say you're perfectly safe with a little hot tea. Or a nice mocha latte.

[lunaverse]

I love tea! This is my most participated in post-mormon "vice". All forms of tea, usually a cup or three a day.

Have you tried Chai yet? A nice chai latte is the best. And if you have a Japanese tea house nearby, try Matcha. It's a powedered green tea mixed with milk. Very "green" tasting. Yum! You can also get the mix online.

I like complicated teas, and complicated coffee.

Tea is also good for you, so they say, full of anti-oxidants, whatever those are for... :)

I've introduced my son to tea, and he loves it as well. A nice cup of soy chai in the morning gets him going and is a good breakfast if we use high-protein soy milk.

Luna

[silverfox]

Are there any controversial stories, theories as to why the WoW was created? If I recall correctly, alcohol was banned because there was competition with church leaders (?) or members (?) selling it???? Same with tobacco??? The leaders didn't want their members buying from the competition so they just banned it all together?

Anyone know anything about this?

My DIL works at a tearoom and all I can say is

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

If you don't like caffeine or if it doesn't like you there are some very yummy caffeine free herbal concoctions.

[free thinker]

Hey Fred

I like your posts. They are pretty interesting.

One of my favorite things to do these days is sit in a coffee shope like Coffee Bean, and read the paper, and watch people. These coffee shops are quite interesting as a social platform.


Now for a really stupid joke:

Did your hear about the indian that drank fifty gallons of tea?

He drowned that night in his "Tea Pee" :D

Sorry. Had to do it.

free thinker

[tgio]

The WoW was supposedly given after the church received some wine that had been poisoned And after Emma got mad about the School of the Prophets kept spitting their tobacco on the floor of the room they met in and she had to clean it up. Shows how dumb the revelation was.
Personally, I love coffee-hot, cold, iced, black, white, or inbetween-there's nothing better. And besides, it and tea are the only beverages besides water that I can drink without sugar, being a diabetic sucks. But having a reason to drink these is great!!!! :D

PS. Fred, don't ever apologize for being right.

[david]

among the many victims of Mormon intolerance, tea certainly must rank high on the list. Tea drinking is one of the worlds great bonding agents, a synonym for quiet, reflective periods in which people withdraw from the hustle and bustle of the everyday world into a time of quiet and reflection. This may be solitary or a social activity, but I think it is uniquely beneficial to the human soul. To have tscc label this as an offence to God is, in my mind at least, a real abomination.
Fred

Well said. I once attended a tea ceremony in a Japanese tea house. The attention and care given to each step of the ceremony was every bit as spiritual as a religious ritual. I would recommend this experience to anyone interested in the lessons of other cultures.

I recently listened to a couple of tea experts during a public radio show on the subject. The variety and depth of tea history and culture is astonishing.

So why would JS find it necessary to ban such a benign and important beverage as tea? I've heard that in the early nineteenth century there was a folk belief that hot drinks (that is, high temperature drinks) were somehow unhealthy. If this is true, it looks like JS was caught up in a fad.

The more I learn about the man, the more it appears that he was magpie when it came to doctrine: just about any one would do. Be it golddigging, masonic ritual, folk beliefs about the origins of the indians, the WoW, current thinking about baptism by immersion, or old testament polygamy teachings, or his utopian leanings, if he tried it, he liked it. But if anyone knows of an original idea the man had, please let me know, cuz I ain't seen any.

[why me]

I think that the key to the use of caffeinated products is to use them in moderation because caffeine is addictive. Can a cup of tea kill you? no. Can a cup of coffee harm you? no. But I think that very few people stop with just one cup.

Likewise with alcohol. Alcohol consumption in my neck of the woods has increased drastically in the last two years and more teenagers are now engaged in binge drinking. Can one bottle of beer harm you? no. But from my perspective, I see people drinking more than one bottle. In fact, one of the main causes of domestic abuse in my area is from drunking men killing or beating their women.

I think that Miss Taken can weigh in with the situation in Britain and youth when it comes to binge drinking.

If you search google both sides weigh in. However, even the pro-tea or coffee side will suggest moderation. Have you ever seen a coffee addict not get their cup in the morning? Not a pretty picture to be sure.

Here are two sites:

http://www.andrews.edu/NUFS/caffeine.html

http://www.celestialhealing.net/caffeine.htm

But like I said there are two sides but I suppose the key is moderation with caffeine consumption.

I remember attending many church functions where sprite or 7 up were served. Not a bad idea when one considers the harmful effects of caffeinated sodas as described in the websites.


As for myself I am addicted to diet colas. I drink them because of my diabetes. If it wasn't for such kinds of colas I think I would be 'dead' from a feeling of un-normalacy since a large part of the population are cola addicts. But I should switch to sprite or 7up if my addicted body can handle the withdrawal.

The only thing that doesn't have me spilling sugar throughout my body is water and how much water can one drink?

Is the word of wisdom contradictory? Yes. But many women would still be alive or less harmed if abstinence from alcohol was the rule.

[mesmer1]

Well, I drink tea now in a kind of exmobishpres kind of way...waht about everyone else....yea, I know i'm probably insane but don';t let on cos I'm a psychotherapist...oooops.

I do thinkthough, if Emma had said.."hey Jo" (Oh tht's where Jimmy got it from) "Jo, I don't like the guys wearing their shoes into the kitchen", those Mo's would have a really wierd ritual right there as they go into a kitchen, Or maybe Em would have said, "Hey Jo" (there it is again) "They let the milk go off again"so we get the milk is an eveil noxious bad thing and cows, well, just cross the road you Mo's you......or how about "Hey Jo" (that's wearing thin now I know) "the guys are making marks on the floor with their walking sticks again"...oh saith the lord, nothing that marks the floor is fit for the use of Mo's.....and I mean..where would it all end???? If Sid Rigdon got in on the act at any stage we'd have some really weird stuff in that old book of theirs. What me making fun of the Mo's...well just wash your mouth out....Hey, if you can't laugh about it it'd be pretty sad right....

Howard Hughes had some good ideas in that direction I guess....only kiddin'

best regards,
ExMoBishPres. That's cool right....

[Fredl]

Hey, FT, thanks for the joke. My wife and kids loved it!

I figure that if I ever go to another Hi Priest Meeting I'd tell it there. Well, of course, with appropriate editing:

The Parable of the Unwise Lamanite

An unwise Lamanite, cursed with blackened skin by the transgressions of his forfathers, was taken with great thirst. Heeding not the wise council of our great Prophet of these later days, Joseph Smith, in his glutony he consumed flagon after flagon of that beverage contrived by the great Tempter of Mankind as snare for the unwary known as Iced Tea. Tired from his labors, he then retired to his teepee. Later, after night had fallen, the righteous wrath of Our father in Heaven fell upon him and he drown on that very spot in his Teapee. Let all be loath to defie our Father in Heaven by transgressing his Word of Wisdom, revealed in these later days by he who has done more for the salvation of mankind, than any other man, save Jesus Christ himself!

Amen.

Fred

[lunaverse]

Is the word of wisdom contradictory? Yes. But many women would still be alive or less harmed if abstinence from alcohol was the rule.

Unfortunately, the lack of alcohol in the Church population does not prevent domestic abuse. Mormons are at least average in this, and I would be willing to bet that research would prove the problem is actually *worse*.

Alcohol does not cause abuse. Alcoholism is one possible symptom of much larger psychological issues. Remove the alcohol (or cocaine or gambling or any addiction you choose) and you will still have the problem. Unfortunately for many Mormons, they're encouraged to "pray" to resolve such issues, or to take perscription medications, instead of look inside for solutions, with the help of a proper secular therapist.

It would help many Mormon domestic situatiuons if women were encouraged to stick up for themselves, and men weren't excused so easily for their bad behavior.

Those who are psychologically healthy are not likely to become addicted to anything... except maybe cigarettes. :)

I personally use caffeine to self-medicate. I've actually used it this way since *before* I mentally divorced myself from Mormonism. I have ADHD, and caffeine is a LOT better than Ritalin and Aderall. These products are of the same chemical structure as speed -- methamphetamines.

Yet many Mormons are perfectly willing to subject their children to speed than give them a cup of tea. And they'd rather take Prozac than take a good deep look at themselves and their ****ed up religion. There's no difference between this and recreational drug use, be it alcohol or crack -- one has government and Church approval, the other doesn't.

Now and then, when I've had a rough week and I've resorted to coffee for several days in a row, I'll start getting withdrawl headaches. I'm living consciously enough to notice this and back off. I'll move to tea again for a few days, and then drop all caffeine for a week.

The point is to be aware of everything as often as possible. How you feel physically and emotionally, what you're thinking, what is going on around you. I don't think Mormonism encourages this. It encourages endurance, a blind passive toleration of whatever life throws at you.

I'd rather proactively catch and throw it back.

Luna

[lunaverse]

Why_Me: I read one of the links (I'll read the other in a minute). Thanks for the links. It's a good idea to research any mood-altering substance one consumes, but caffeine is so common, I'd never gotten beyond comparing dosages between types of beverages. (Incidentally, in another caffeine chart, Hot Chocolate was rated at 14mg, while Lipton Brisk was rated at 9mg. I never drink Brisk, it's a rip-off!! :D )

It is interesting to note that this site says:

Dependence, as evidenced by withdrawal symptoms, may occur after only 6-15 days of exposure to 600 mg or more daily.

It also states tea has 30-65mg/cup, and coffee 65-110mg/cup.

I'd like to point out that for an average adult, they'd have to drink 10 cups of tea, or 6 cups of coffee to achieve chemical dependency.

The alarmist tone of this website vastly exagerates the problem. (Example alarmism: "Using a chemical to "feel good" is a behavior which may serve as a gateway to use of other drugs" and "Caffeine is an addictive drug and its regular use can lead to dependency with unknown long-term effects".)

I don't think any of us here drinks 6(!?!?) cups of coffee a day. At my worst, like last week when I was reading software user manuals, I'll drink two cups of coffee, or 1-2 double-shot espressos per day.

Do any tea-lovers here drink 10 (?!?!) cups of tea a day? I think my max is 4.

My only danger is this one Indian place that serves the best Chai in the world. They constantly refill the cup, so you can never be quite sure how much you drink. I usually leave the place feeling pretty hopped up. :) Maybe I should beware though that this good feeling might lead me to other drugs... :O

Anyone know where I might get some speed? Oh yeah, that Ritalin perscription in my medicine cabinet that I quit taking because it caused instant anxiety attacks. ;)

Luna

[lunaverse]

The second page had the following problems:

1) Slippery slope (the gateway drug arguement is also a slope)
2) Anecdotal evidence used when arguing why *everyone* should avoid caffeine
3) "It’s ok to have a piece of chocolate every now and then but please be sure not to use caffeine on a daily basis, especially if you are a woman." What?

I would argue that this person needs more self-awareness than that caffeine is bad. If he/she got to the point where he/she was shaking, having diarrhea, and insomniac... and he/she STILL didn't quit until diagnosed with a disease, then he/she needs to wake up to life. </judgement>

I'd also like to observe that neither of these pieces explains that caffeine is a diuretic. Like alcohol, caffeine removes water from your system. This is useful to know because if you consume lots of water while consuming these beverages, you will not experience quite so many of the negative side effects.

Hangovers are caused by dehydration, plain and simple. I have at most had two *very mild* hangovers, because when I drink I make sure I consume at least as much water as alcohol.

Likewise with caffeine. Water is good for you anyway. :)

The first link stated chocolate has 10-40mg per bar. You cannot become addicted to caffeine by being a chocoholic. I really can't stand alarmist writings. :) The actual addictive componant of chocolate is phenylethylamine, along with a nice cocktail of other lovely chemicals.

http://www.chocolate.org/ has a really good description of the chemical makeup of chocolate.

While we're on the topic of chemical substances, I'd like to bring up the coca leaf. It is banned in this country, because it is used to make cocaine and derivitives. (It should be noted that Coca-Cola Co is the only entity in the US legally allowed to import and use coca leaves in its product.. they say it's for color only. . . . .)

In many parts of South America, the coca leaf is used in religious ceremonies, a practice that dates back probably thousands of years. I have attended a few shaman rituals, and we had to substitute with bay leaves.

The coca leaf is also chewed daily by the people who populate the Andes mountains. It produces a stimulating effect, since coca is an "upper".

It just so happens that the active chemical in the coca leaf opens up the capilaries in the lungs, allowing the body to absorb more oxygen. In the thin air of the Andes, this is essential to survival. Humans and the dreaded coca plant are living symbiotically.

There is little wonder it features so heavily in their religious rituals, much the same way bread figures into western worship -- both are crucial to survival.

Luna

[why me]

[QUOTE=lunaverse]Alcohol does not cause abuse. Alcoholism is one possible symptom of much larger psychological issues. Remove the alcohol (or cocaine or gambling or any addiction you choose) and you will still have the problem. Unfortunately for many Mormons, they're encouraged to "pray" to resolve such issues, or to take perscription medications, instead of look inside for solutions, with the help of a proper secular therapist.


The thing is luna I wasn't thinking about the church population when I wrote my post. I was thinking about the general population.

You are right when you said that alcohol does not cause domestic abuse but I think it certainly is a conduit of domestic abuse...at least where I live.

Most domestic disturbances in my area have to do with alcohol in the blood stream. And it certainly is a problem also in terms of heath related deaseases. But is alcohol the problem?...perhaps not. The problem lies beneath the surface of the person's life who is doing the abusing. But excess alcohol consumption can certainly lead to violence coming to fruition.

Of course I am no expert...but I have certainly done my share of observing its effects in my own society.

One beer---no problem. But many cannot stop with just one beer and I think that every alcoholic started with that first drink.

As for the mormons...well...they are a small part of the population at large. They have there own problems like every other group or groups of individuals.

Education and discussion are usually good ways to begin the process toward better life circumstances and better social conditions in my opinion.

[why me]

I will comment about your comments about the websites later when I have more time. But right now I am a little busy. Take care in Seattle!! :)

[why me]

Why_Me: I read one of the links (I'll read the other in a minute). Thanks for the links. It's a good idea to research any mood-altering substance one consumes, but caffeine is so common, I'd never gotten beyond comparing dosages between types of beverages. (Incidentally, in another caffeine chart, Hot Chocolate was rated at 14mg, while Lipton Brisk was rated at 9mg. I never drink Brisk, it's a rip-off!! :D )

It is interesting to note that this site says:

Dependence, as evidenced by withdrawal symptoms, may occur after only 6-15 days of exposure to 600 mg or more daily.

It also states tea has 30-65mg/cup, and coffee 65-110mg/cup.

I'd like to point out that for an average adult, they'd have to drink 10 cups of tea, or 6 cups of coffee to achieve chemical dependency.

The alarmist tone of this website vastly exagerates the problem. (Example alarmism: "Using a chemical to "feel good" is a behavior which may serve as a gateway to use of other drugs" and "Caffeine is an addictive drug and its regular use can lead to dependency with unknown long-term effects".)

I don't think any of us here drinks 6(!?!?) cups of coffee a day. At my worst, like last week when I was reading software user manuals, I'll drink two cups of coffee, or 1-2 double-shot espressos per day.

Do any tea-lovers here drink 10 (?!?!) cups of tea a day? I think my max is 4.

My only danger is this one Indian place that serves the best Chai in the world. They constantly refill the cup, so you can never be quite sure how much you drink. I usually leave the place feeling pretty hopped up. :) Maybe I should beware though that this good feeling might lead me to other drugs... :O

Anyone know where I might get some speed? Oh yeah, that Ritalin perscription in my medicine cabinet that I quit taking because it caused instant anxiety attacks. ;)

Luna
There were quite many websites about drinking caffeine and whether or not caffeine is harmful. It seems that moderation is the key. The church teaches that coffee and tea should be avoided and I don't see a problem with this. If a person is a mormon then the rules should be obeyed. I suppose that it is the same if a person is jewish---then foods should be kosher and pork should be avoided. And if you are muslim alcohol and pork should also be avoided.

It all goes with the turf of one's beliefs. For years and years catholics did not eat meat on friday. Many a catholic went to their deaths never eating meat on friday.

The whole caffeine thing can be getting out of hand as people attempt to stay awake and get new supplies of energy from caffeinated energy drinks---red bull as an example. Caffeine seems to be a drug in this respect.

The sites that I posted are just the tip in the iceberg when it comes to the dangers of caffeine. But I do believe that if a person takes it in moderation no harm will be done.

But luna, how does one explain the coffee addicts behavior when the fix is no where in site in the morning?

I have to go now...I am dying for a diet pepsi.... :rolleyes:

[lunaverse]

But luna, how does one explain the coffee addicts behavior when the fix is no where in site in the morning?


I'm not denying caffeine addiction exists, I'm just denying that it's as big of a problem as those sites indicated. Those sites made it sound as if you could become addicted to caffeine by eating a couple bars of chocolate or drinking one or two cups of tea every day. They also made it sound as if caffeine addiction was likely to lead you to addictions to harder drugs. And then that caffeine addiction would certainly lead to some fatal disease.

These things are not true. They might be true for some people, but not everyone, or even the majority.

Especially post-mos. I've noticed post-mos, once they get past the adolesent phase, tend to be moderate people. We know what it's like to live at one extreme (and after our adolesent phase, we may even know the other extreme as well). We're usually much more aware of our inner world than other people (because we've had a drastic, life-altering paradigm shift), and so we're usually quite content enjoying two cups of peach-flavored ceylon tea every day.

That "gateway drug" theory really sticks in my craw, too, every time I see it brought up. Causation is not correlation. Taking a mild drug does not mean you will take harder drugs. Certainly people who use hard drugs had to start somewhere. People don't go from chocolate milk directly to heroine, so *everyone* who shoots up at one time drank alcohol, caffeine, and smoked pot. That doesn't mean alcohol, caffeine, and pot lead to heroine use. That's like saying drinking water will kill you, because everyone who has ever drank water is now dead or will certainly die. :/ Maybe water is a gateway drug, too?

Oh, and on the Red Bull, caffeine is not the major pep ingredient. Red Bull contains as much caffeine as a weak cup of coffee, about 80 mg. Its real strength lies in the other stimulants and the sugar.

Luna

[why me]

I'm not denying caffeine addiction exists, I'm just denying that it's as big of a problem as those sites indicated. Those sites made it sound as if you could become addicted to caffeine by eating a couple bars of chocolate or drinking one or two cups of tea every day. They also made it sound as if caffeine addiction was likely to lead you to addictions to harder drugs. And then that caffeine addiction would certainly lead to some fatal disease.

These things are not true. They might be true for some people, but not everyone, or even the majority.

Especially post-mos. I've noticed post-mos, once they get past the adolesent phase, tend to be moderate people. We know what it's like to live at one extreme (and after our adolesent phase, we may even know the other extreme as well). We're usually much more aware of our inner world than other people (because we've had a drastic, life-altering paradigm shift), and so we're usually quite content enjoying two cups of peach-flavored ceylon tea every day.

That "gateway drug" theory really sticks in my craw, too, every time I see it brought up. Causation is not correlation. Taking a mild drug does not mean you will take harder drugs. Certainly people who use hard drugs had to start somewhere. People don't go from chocolate milk directly to heroine, so *everyone* who shoots up at one time drank alcohol, caffeine, and smoked pot. That doesn't mean alcohol, caffeine, and pot lead to heroine use. That's like saying drinking water will kill you, because everyone who has ever drank water is now dead or will certainly die. :/ Maybe water is a gateway drug, too?

Oh, and on the Red Bull, caffeine is not the major pep ingredient. Red Bull contains as much caffeine as a weak cup of coffee, about 80 mg. Its real strength lies in the other stimulants and the sugar.

Luna
Thanks for the post. I think that you are right about the sites claims. I think that research today is rather clouded by special interests. And this is the case with at least one of the sites.

I do remember Ozzy Osbourne having a whole drawer filled with chocolate and other sugar substances. :rolleyes:

I have found it interesting the popularity of decaf coffee etc. To go decafe seems to be very popular and to my mind certain groups seemed to promote it as being more healthy than drinking the caffeinated coffee. I still remember the popularity of Sanka.

But I think that we can agree that moderation is the key to all things...can't we?

Thanks the info about red bull. Maybe it was a poor choice but I have noticed some 'keep me awake' caffeinated drinks or have I? :confused:

Hey what is with the moderator label under your name? I see it also with helemon. Has free thinker and silverfox been released from their callings?

[aether]

Oh me too, David! I love the Japanese tea ceremony, and Japanese tea in general. It's so hard to find good tea in America, but most Japanese teas are very very good.

When it come to the Word of Wisdom though, I heard (from a Mormon, actually) that the term "hot drinks" refers to whiskey and hard liquor. I can see how it could be interpreted to mean coffee and tea, but it would also include hot chocolate (which is definitely not frowned on). I dunno. It's unreasonable, but it's justified as God's word. Gotta obey. No matter what.

[lunaverse]

Hey what is with the moderator label under your name? I see it also with helemon. Has free thinker and silverfox been released from their callings?

No demotions. Silver and them decided they needed more help because they are sometimes busy with real life projects.

There's an annoucement at the top of the sticky-threads, but it's easy to miss because ironically we all get used to ignoring them. :)

Luna