Sin or Ignorance

[Fredl]

On another thread a discussion is taking place on whether victims of abuse frequently, sometimes or never are contributors to the situation. Got me to thinking about my own childhood.

I'd say that by the standards of the times (the 1940s and 50s) my home was fairly normal. Which is to say that by today's understanding, a considerable amount of physical and emotional abuse took place. No sexual abuse, but plenty of the other varieties. When I finally talked with my HS Guidance Counsellor about it, she was very sympathetic and helpful, especially during a teen age crises that occurred in my Senior Year of HS. One way that she helped me was by making me aware of how widespread my situation and worse were at our high school. Some, much worse.

Anyway, looking back at what an unsympathetic prick I was with my mom and dad, I believe that I CERTAINLY contributed to the problem. I also realize what tough lives they had both had. My mom was a halfbreed Indian with a HORRENDOUS childhood in which she had been raised by a Black family after being orphaned at the age of two. My dad had never had a childhood, really and it is hard to see how he could have been the dad I thought he should have been, with a strong interest in the things I valued, like HS sports and aviation. I really didn't understand the enormity of his accomplishment in putting himself through college and earning his Master's degree in Chemistry.

Anyway, could I have been part of the solution instead of part of the problem in our home? Absolutely!!!

The problem was that in my ignorance, I didn't know how.

Nor did anyone around me.

Now, Elder Scott is correct in thinking that I contributed to the problem. BUT, I feel much closer to Buddhist thinking on what the issue here was. In my mind, the issue was ignorance and suffering rather than Sin and Repentence which is the issue in Mormon thought, at least insofar as I understand it.

It is my belief, based on my limited experience, that abuse causes suffering to everyone involved and everyone involved deserves compassion and understanding. Now, that love and compassion usually must include "tough love" which means appropriate consequences. But to imagine that the abuser is not suffering and is generally a victim as well is to misunderstand the nature of abuse and suffering.

At least, imho.

Fred

[silverfox]

On another thread a discussion is taking place on whether victims of abuse frequently, sometimes or never are contributors to the situation. Got me to thinking about my own childhood.

I'd say that by the standards of the times (the 1940s and 50s) my home was fairly normal. Which is to say that by today's understanding, a considerable amount of physical and emotional abuse took place. No sexual abuse, but plenty of the other varieties. When I finally talked with my HS Guidance Counsellor about it, she was very sympathetic and helpful, especially during a teen age crises that occurred in my Senior Year of HS. One way that she helped me was by making me aware of how widespread my situation and worse were at our high school. Some, much worse.

Anyway, looking back at what an unsympathetic prick I was with my mom and dad, I believe that I CERTAINLY contributed to the problem. I also realize what tough lives they had both had. My mom was a halfbreed Indian with a HORRENDOUS childhood in which she had been raised by a Black family after being orphaned at the age of two. My dad had never had a childhood, really and it is hard to see how he could have been the dad I thought he should have been, with a strong interest in the things I valued, like HS sports and aviation. I really didn't understand the enormity of his accomplishment in putting himself through college and earning his Master's degree in Chemistry.

Anyway, could I have been part of the solution instead of part of the problem in our home? Absolutely!!!

The problem was that in my ignorance, I didn't know how.

Nor did anyone around me.

Now, Elder Scott is correct in thinking that I contributed to the problem. BUT, I feel much closer to Buddhist thinking on what the issue here was. In my mind, the issue was ignorance and suffering rather than Sin and Repentence which is the issue in Mormon thought, at least insofar as I understand it.

It is my belief, based on my limited experience, that abuse causes suffering to everyone involved and everyone involved deserves compassion and understanding. Now, that love and compassion usually must include "tough love" which means appropriate consequences. But to imagine that the abuser is not suffering and is generally a victim as well is to misunderstand the nature of abuse and suffering.

At least, imho.

Fred

Was it ignorance or immaturity? What understanding can or should be expected of a teenager or a child? (not really asking, just thinking outloud)

It is my belief, based on my limited experience, that abuse causes suffering to everyone involved and everyone involved deserves compassion and understanding.

This may be true to your experience but there are so many cases of abuse where there is no remorse, no suffering (except for being pissed/scared that they were caught). None. nada. zip.

Each experience is very individualized.

[lunaverse]

It is my belief, based on my limited experience, that abuse causes suffering to everyone involved and everyone involved deserves compassion and understanding. Now, that love and compassion usually must include "tough love" which means appropriate consequences. But to imagine that the abuser is not suffering and is generally a victim as well is to misunderstand the nature of abuse and suffering.


I believe this, although it's sometimes hard to see past the anger and sick feelings. BTW, all this would fall under "advanced abuse studies", because it's not the kind of thing a person early in recovery wants to or needs to hear.

I began my self-help/therapy journey long before leaving the Church, when as a young married/divorced woman, I felt intolerable pain that I couldn't resolve in traditional ways.

I quickly learned that abusers were often abused themselves, and that there was usually a long chain of trauma going back for generations. Children suffering from trauma will create defense mechanisms in order to survive to adulthood. For some of us, those mechanisms put us in patterns of continued drama/trauma, and for others, they learn to lash out at others. The abuser has as little self-esteem as the abused, and is suffering from as much shame, self-hatred, and frustration.

I recognized that other sins -- alcoholism, sex addiction, drug addiction, murder, etc. -- would often stem from these same types of horrible childhoods. A happy, healthy person will (usually) be able to cope with life's challenges, and won't need to escape. Mental health seems to be inherently tied to behavior, especially when looking at "normal" life stresses. (In extreme situations, desparate people of all mental health levels will tend to do things they never thought possible, for good or evil... there but for the grace of god go I.)

At some point, I had to ask myself the question -- if most sin can be traced back to tragic childhoods or traumas later in life, then what's all this about Justice and Mercy?? If a child grows up to hit his kids because he was hit, then how far back do we take the blame when it comes to Justice? If the family was perfectly happy when we get back to great-great-grandpa, then what about the war-induced PTSD that caused *him* to snap and beat HIS kids? He wasn't to blame either -- the war was. And then what if it's a just war??

I couldn't buy the idea of eternal punishment for acting out of coping mechanisms, espcially when we were created (by God) with these tools to survive. It didn't make sense that God would stop our progress because of things our parents did, that they did because of their parents, and so on.

I couldn't be satisfied with the answer that "It will all be worked out in the hereafter". The Church always seemed to have answers to the tough questions I'd had before. Where was the answer to this question?

So within my Mormon beliefs, I developed a different story of Justice and Mercy.

Eternity has no beginning and no end, right? Then we're in eternity right now! We're one small dot on the infinite line.

And those who are trapped in unhealthy coping mechanisms are suffering already, whether they be the victim or the perp. They're already miserable! They're already in hell!

Scriptures referencing eternal life or damnation could be reframed... eternal life is *now*. Damnation, unhappiness and the ceasation of progress are also *now*.

Basically, to me this meant, "Stop worrying about who did what to who and when justice will come where. Everyone is already getting their own just deserts. So focus on the here and now and just what *I'm* going to do about *me*". (This of course does not prevent examination of the past, inner child work, etc.)

Later, of course, I threw out the whole Mormon bathwater, but I kept a version of this baby. If someone, anyone, is suffering from abuse -- be they victim or perp -- they need to stop and take responsibility right now for changing their course. We have the science, we have the technology, for finding happiness. It just takes a lot of work and self-examination and letting go.

Some days, I live in heaven, and some days I live in hell. But after 11 years of work, I'm far more often in heaven than I was in my hellish youth. And progress isn't always a straight line -- trauma can occur in adulthood that produces new unhealthy coping mechanisms, and these can be just as difficult to overcome as childhood trauma. Being converted to a cult, going to war, having your heart broken, etc.

So yes, I do feel compassion for abusers, because they live in a misery unimaginable. That doesn't mean I'm likely to be any less angry at them, or let them off from their consequences. They need to take responsibility just like the rest of us.

Luna

[free thinker]

And those who are trapped in unhealthy coping mechanisms are suffering already, whether they be the victim or the perp. They're already miserable! They're already in hell!

Scriptures referencing eternal life or damnation could be reframed... eternal life is *now*. Damnation, unhappiness and the ceasation of progress are also *now*.


See my signature below by Robert G. Ingersoll.

free thinker

[peter_mary]

The trouble for me in identifying victims, especially teenagers, as part of the problem is the recognition that teenagers lack the experience and thus the wisdom to really understand what the possible consequences of their actions are. I think that's what Silverfox was asking when she asked, "Is it ignorance or immaturity?"

As the parent of three adolescents (well, one has graduated from that classification, but she was the hardest damn teenager I personally ever raised!), I am well aware of the manner in which kids can "bring stuff" on themselves, but I am also convinced that in the VAST majority of these cases, the kids bring it on without any appreciation for the risks and the possible consequences.

I remember having the discussion with my daughter once that as her parent, my job was to help her become a "risk manager." As a teenager, without the wisdom that comes from experience and hard lessons learned, she was not capable of perceiving the risks associated with her behavior. Subsequently, she really couldn't be held accountable for the consequences, either. It was my job to help train her to project herself into possible outcomes that had not yet been realized, but even then, without real-world experience, that's a very tough thing to do. I spend an enormous amount of parenting energy trying to project the possible risks, and helping to point out those pitfalls to my kids before they step into them. Somtimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. Regardless, we ALL make mistakes growing up, not because we're bad, but because we are "unwise", or like they say in Buddhism, "unskillful."

See, skillfullness is a learned condition. It is learned by virtue of experiences that teach us. Unfortunately, in our culture, we have a tendency to frame those teaching experiences as "sinful" or as "bad." In reality, they are learning opportunities, and the sooner we gain the available wisdom, the sooner we can spare ourselves the pain of unskillful living.

Is it any wonder that the law has defined statutory rape as rape REGARDLESS of whether the minor child consented to sex or not? There is sound reasoning behind that...a minor child who lacks the experience CAN NOT make wise decisions regarding their behavior and the subsequent sexual messages it sends. So I don't care if a 16 year old comes to a party butt-naked...nobody get's to "have their way with her" because she asked for it. The bottom line is, she doesn't know what she's asking for. She might have some twisted idea of what's going on, some fantasy of what it's supposed to mean, but she doesn't really understand.

That's why I choke on talks like Richard Scott's in which he wants to lay some of the responsibility on the victim. Chances are, whether a child or an adult, if you have been victimized, it is because someone else took advantage of the lack of skillfullness, the lack of wisdom, on the victim's part. That doesn't mean the victim needs to repent. Only that they need to learn the wisdom lesson embedded in the eperience. The RESPONSIBILITY lies firmly at the feet of the person who took advantage of someone else's lack of wisdom.

That doesn't, by the way, preclude the possibility that the perpetrator is also victim. That's a whole other issue.

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

What Peter_Mary said. (And Luna -- I totally agreed with taking responsibility for how one reacts to and recovers from the abuse. You can't let trauma dictate all of your choices afterwards.)


Thanks for finally articulating something I've been trying to say on these boards for quite some time. Somehow, I never managed to string the words together quite as effectively.

I think part of this I've brought on myself, by electing myself as the Postmo Poster Child for Sexual Abuse. Now that I have that label (and that's totally my own doing, I recognize this), my comments are sometimes sort of patronized or pooh-poohed because, "oh she's a victim and still all pissed off, so we have to take her words with a grain of salt." Every time I try to make the points that P_M did above, I'm told how angry I still am and how many issues I still have. That's nonsense, but the label has backfired on me and discredits anything I say on the matter, regardless of the 20 years of recovery work I've done. News Flash: My head is screwed on nice and straight now, thankyouverymuch.

Another part of the problem is inherent in American culture and views on rape. Many people who have not been through the recovery process cannot and do not want to accept the fact that the victim is probably mostly blameless. I won't say never, but I think it's never. I can't think of a good excuse to abuse or victimize someone else. Period. So the Blame-The-Victim game gets played to varying degrees because the alternative is so heinous to comprehend. People have a very tough time imagining how a human being could do such terrible hurtful things to another human being, especially one they're supposed to love or take care of... so people feel compelled to wonder if maybe the victim did something to "ask for it."

[Fredl]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I'm very appreciative of the manner in which they were made. This is a very emotional subject and one that is challenging to address in a level headed way.

OK, this whole thing about compassion for the perpetrators of abuse is a tough nut. The thing that occurs to me is that there is a heck of a lot more to maturity than age and a heck of a lot more to wisdom than experience. My own mom seemed more than half insane to me at times and to demand rationality and reasonableness from her as I was growing up was totally unrealistic. Whether it was genetic problems or the way she grew up or some unholy combination of both, she was completely unable to meet such a demand on my part. Which I implicitely made on her. Now, to say that in my stony indifference to her problems and conviction that I was just a child and she was an adult with adult responsibilities simply perpetuates the self justification that I lived with for many, many years after I left my original home. No, friends, I am convinced that I was part of the problem.

My Mom has changed over the years and I have assured her that I have forgiven her for how she treatred me as a child. However, I still don't like to be around her and get antsy after 15 minutes or more conversation with her. Am I to be condemmed for my continuing hostility towards her since I'm now an adult and responsible for my actions and attitudes? Well, I suppose so but I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it.

I think that many people make a sort of demand that people behave the way they "should" and can't get their head around the idea that everybody is behaving at all times exactly as they "should". How many, many times can I remember being told what I "should" be doing by well meaning but clueless individuals who in no way understood my experience of life nor how my unique understanding interpreted my experience. What I have found is that the proportion of people who have a truly observant and empathetic personality is pretty constant inside and outside the church. People here at Postmormon.org make the persistent demand that everybody see things their way, most importantly that the chuch is "bad" and that history, both chuch and other, is mostly about victims and oppressors. God, it must be frustrating for many if not most of you to deal with me; my church and history paradigms are so much different from these!

Well, best wishes from Obtuse Fred

[silverfox]

People here at Postmormon.org make the persistent demand that everybody see things their way, most importantly that the chuch is "bad" and that history, both chuch and other, is mostly about victims and oppressors. God, it must be frustrating for many if not most of you to deal with me; my church and history paradigms are so much different from these!

Well, best wishes from Obtuse Fred

I disagree. I think members here want people to UNDERSTAND why they feel the way they do. We want to talk about the damage so we can move beyond it.

Many of us HAVE been victimized by church members and leaders. There is a great sense of betrayal we have experienced.

We have talked about some of the good that can come from Mo'ism but it's the bad that has left open wounds and scars and dammit, we are going to talk about it and share our experiences and offer support for those who are dealing with the same unexpected emotions and feelings.

When the church is one's life, ibne's everything.....when one would die for it and then one finds out that they were betrayed.....whew, that's a lot to deal with. Some emotions are not expected. It' can be and has been a shocking and very emotional experience for a lot of us.

I think many of us didn't choose to exit the church. There was no choice about it. It's about integrity.

If we were allowed to discuss openly our questions, concerns, etc in church or with leaders maybe many of us would still be members. But it's not allowed. We are told to keep our questions to ourselves, not to talk about them or action will be taken against us. We've had bishops and stake presidents demean us for having questions. We've been told we didn't pray enough, fast enough, pay enough or be obedient enough. It's so untrue.

Some of the best former TBMs are no longer members or no longer believe. Some of the very best former TBMs are here at Post Mo.

For a reason and not always by choice.

[Fredl]

Silver Fox, luna, et al, I seem to be coming around to the view that I'm really out of line with my comments here. Not that I doubt their truth, they just aren't necessary. As the saying goes, if I can't say something nice, why say anything at all?

When I was younger, I used to really put down my Dad and a number of his relatives for what I perceived as their bigotry. They all really had a severe prejudice against Blacks, Jews, Catholics, Asians and just about everybody else who wasn't White, Anglo Saxon, and Protestant. And, by the way, Mormons. Especially, they hated Amerindians. Which, as I'm sure you can imagine, made for some really interesting dynamics around the issue of my Dad picking my Mom to marry.

Anyway, I had a pretty harsh attitude towards my Dad for much of his life and, at least in part, justified it by labelling him a bigot and a racist.

As I got older and a little less shrill in my self-righteosness, I came to rethink my atttude towards my Dad. In fact, I rethought it so much that I came around to the view that he had his reasons and was entitled to think what he wanted to about Indians, Blacks, Asians, etc, etc. I did not and will probably never agree with him on this issue but there was no reason for me to hold his opinion against him.

I have never had the terrible experiences all of you had in tscc. I walked into the church voluntarily closing my eyes and holding my nose. Which I had good reason for doing and for which I do not fault the church, nor do I fault myself. I have not experienced moving on from the church as painfully as you all seem to have. So, I just don't share the prevailings attitudes and paradigms that most of you share.

I don't think it likely that I'm going to change anybody's mind here and will try to keep my remarks more in keeping with the intent of this site. Nobody told me we're engaged here with some sort of "search for the truth"; rather we are trying to give comfort to those in painful withdrawal from tscc. Including most of you. I will try to keep this in mind in the future.

Yes, the bottom line is that I'm simply out of place here.

Fred

[lunaverse]

Yes, the bottom line is that I'm simply out of place here.



Eh, speaking for myself, I enjoy talking with you, even if we don't agree. :)

Luna

[free thinker]

I don't think it likely that I'm going to change anybody's mind here and will try to keep my remarks more in keeping with the intent of this site. Nobody told me we're engaged here with some sort of "search for the truth"; rather we are trying to give comfort to those in painful withdrawal from tscc. Including most of you. I will try to keep this in mind in the future.


We are definately interested in a "search for the truth" and we are also providing an enviroment condusive to recovery from fundamentalist over-reaching.

Frankly I think this site is doing a good job at both.

I would like it if you stick around Fred. You have made the fabric of the site more interesting IMHO. We want and need all points of veiw.

As a moderator I am inviting you to stay and hope you will.

free thinker