Statement of Belief

[Fredl]

For a number of reasons, I've decided to put together a statement of what I believe. I've been finding simply being against tscc a hollow and unrewarding sort of belief system. So, here goes:

First, I believe in modern Physics, specifically Quantum Mechanics and Relativity. I don't believe these ideas stand in opposition to tscc but neither do they support it. I think that the spirit of modern scientific inquiry into the nature of the universe and reality are rather unfriendly to the spirit of Mormonism.

Second, I believe in the Theory of Evolution (Darwinism), and modern genetics. I think these beliefs are, in the end, quite hostile to Mormonism

Third, I believe in the teachings of the Buddha and Jesus Christ. I do not believe the myths of Gods, Demons and other supernatural beings or events that have grown up around both or other spiritual guides or teachers. I do not believe in any sort of precedence or heirarchy between spiritual guides or teachers. I believe that my beliefs in this area to be quite opposed to those of tscc.

Fourth, I believe in the insights of the Twelve Step Programs. They are the principle guide to my understanding of Human Psychology. In particular, I agree in the concepts of Detatchment, Living in the Present, Avoidance of Enablement and the existance and availability of a Higher Power. While standing not exactly in opposition to Mormon Doctrine, I think these teachings are more accurate in regard to dealing with life on a daily basis and are unlikely to ever be incorporated into Mormon Church Doctrine.

Fifth, my guiding political beliefs are Democracy and Free Market Capitalism. I believe the application of these principles to be the surest route to maximizing economic prosperity and human happiness. I think the church stands in a rather ambivalent position in respect to these ideals. The Law of Consecration certainly stands in direct opposition to them and I've often heard that if mankind were not so unable to carry out the Lord's wishes, that would be His wish. At the same time, Mormon culture does seem to hve an unusually good record in promoting self reliance and an entrepenurial spirit. Mormon politicians cover the political spectrum but seem to favor these priniples more than they oppose them.

Sixth, I have been heavily influenced by the work of Peter Senge and his ideas on systems thinking, especially his idea of the significance of Mental Models, a significant recasting of the concept of Paradigms. This. like most ideas concieved later than the 19th century, seems to be completely unknown to Mormon thinkers.

Last, I find myself intrigued with the ideas of "Process Theology". I have come to believe that everything that exists has the properties of "becomingness" and "relatedness". These properties give rise to evolution (akin, but not identical to the Mormon notion of "Eternal Progression") and ultimately life, identity at various levels within the system and ultimately self consciousness. I do not believe that identity is limited to Human identity, but exists at a much higher level within the system which may be called God. I have little direct evidence for this, but my personal, subjective experience seems sufficient for me to accept it. Although there are certain common points between these beliefs and Mormon Doctrine, I believe that, taken as a whole, it's pretty much incompatable.

Been sick for a few days and being sick always makes me depressed, hence my withdrawal for a few days. Hope these thoughts may be in some small way helpful to some of you. They certainly don't represent my thoughts on what anybody else SHOULD believe, nor even what is TRUE; merely the way I see things at this time.

Fred

[why me]

Fifth, my guiding political beliefs are Democracy and Free Market Capitalism. I believe the application of these principles to be the surest route to maximizing economic prosperity and human happiness. I think the church stands in a rather ambivalent position in respect to these ideals. The Law of Consecration certainly stands in direct opposition to them and I've often heard that if mankind were not so unable to carry out the Lord's wishes, that would be His wish. At the same time, Mormon culture does seem to hve an unusually good record in promoting self reliance and an entrepenurial spirit. Mormon politicians cover the political spectrum but seem to favor these priniples more than they oppose them.Fred
I think that we have a lot of free marketeers on the forum---each with their own perspective on human happiness and economic prosperity. However, it is rather unfortunate that the free marketeers seem to forget that many americans are seeing shrinks and popping happy pills to get a un-natural high. We also have one of the largest prison populations in the world.

And may I add that the good ol' USA has seen an increase in poverty during the last years and wealth has accumulated into fewer and fewer hands.

But I suppose that I need to buy into the market economy and believe in economic prosperity and happiness in the same breath. But I just can't do it. Too much misery and alienation out there in american communities to buy that marshmellow.

But I guess that americans have been brainwashed to believe in such things. However the figures speak for themselves. Everything is not all heaven in america and the free market has been responsible for commodifying our entire life-world, including are own bodies, as eating disorders are on the increase.

I tend to live by the slogan "Our world is not for sale" but under the free market world system, it is certainly for sale to the lowest bidder or should I say wage?

[free thinker]

I truly enjoyed reading this post fred.

I appreciate the idea of setting forth your beleif system. I have found that it takes a lot of work and introspection. But as it has been said, " the unexamined life is not worth living".


ft

[free thinker]

But I guess that americans have been brainwashed to believe in such things. However the figures speak for themselves. Everything is not all heaven in america and the free market has been responsible for commodifying our entire life-world, including are own bodies, as eating disorders are on the increase


I cannot imagine being in more disagreement than I am with you. Never the less. I find that you are convicted in your belief system and therefore you have my respect.

On with the show.

ft

[Fredl]

From what I've seen at this site, Why Me, your beliefs are pretty much framed in terms of how you disagree with what other people think. I find myself wondering what you do believe.

I don't know how well informed you really are but I do know that I simply don't believe the assertions you've made here. Certainly it sounds to me that you'd happily take away my freedom to pursue whatever career or enterprise I'd freely choose as well as the rewards of that choice if you had the opportunity to do so because you think you know better than I do what I should be doing with my life and the rewards of my efforts. I see no evidence that you'd do a better job than Bill Gates, for example, in funding charities or using his wealth wisely. Certainly, to me, The PRC and India offer abundant evidence that free markets function enormously better than centrally controlled ones do.

The world is not a perfect place, particularly from the standpoint of those with insufficient intelligence, self control, energy or charm to prosper in it. Nor for those who are simply unlucky. I think it highly unlikely that the application of your ideas, which has been attempted many times in history, would make this any less true. Politics is the application of best practices, not romantic foolishness that leads inevitably to disaster.

Fred

[Fredl]

Thanks for your response, ft.

I think that there are two very different mind sets (paradigms) involved in the Socialism vs Free Market Capitalism debate. Free Market Capitalists believe in the concept of Value Creation driving economic activity and that those who create value deserve the fruits of their labors. From this follows the right of personal freedom and the right to enforce contracts. Socialists believe in the premise of "From each according to their ability; to each according to their need". Personal freedom must be subordinated to the social requirement to fulfill the needs of "the people". How this leads directly to tyranny escapes them.

Democracy combined with free market capitalism results in a separation of economic power that makes possible control of economic power that is totally missing in Socialist states.

The problem of class conflict in the Western World does not come from the Working Class and the Investor Class but from the estrangement of the Intellectuals from the productive classes. Their estrangement comes from their recognition of their very limited ability to create value and fear of their inability to generate income appropriate to the inherrent worth they feel they possess regardless of their inability to produce a product anybody is willing to pay anything for.

Fred

[why me]

From what I've seen at this site, Why Me, your beliefs are pretty much framed in terms of how you disagree with what other people think. I find myself wondering what you do believe.Fred
I think that I have made myself clear in what I believe politically. I have not wavered since my first introductory post where I declared myself to be a TBM (true blue marxist).

But I can understand your comment. It was a somewhat cheap shot as a pesonal comment and then a presenting of your ideas. No problem but it should have been left off the thread because it only distracts from the ideas of your post.

[why me]

I don't know how well informed you really are but I do know that I simply don't believe the assertions you've made here. Certainly it sounds to me that you'd happily take away my freedom to pursue whatever career or enterprise I'd freely choose as well as the rewards of that choice if you had the opportunity to do so because you think you know better than I do what I should be doing with my life and the rewards of my efforts. I see no evidence that you'd do a better job than Bill Gates, for example, in funding charities or using his wealth wisely. Certainly, to me, The PRC and India offer abundant evidence that free markets function enormously better than centrally controlled ones do.

The world is not a perfect place, particularly from the standpoint of those with insufficient intelligence, self control, energy or charm to prosper in it. Nor for those who are simply unlucky. I think it highly unlikely that the application of your ideas, which has been attempted many times in history, would make this any less true. Politics is the application of best practices, not romantic foolishness that leads inevitably to disaster.

Fred

When one looks into the history of capitalism one can see the destruction that has been caused in the name of human progress.

As I pointed out, the market economy has brought destruction to the Indian community as the market deemed the Indian land valuable. Plus the whole issue of slavery became an issue of private property as slave were valued based on the marketablity.

And then when we search through the struggle of the working class to receive a better wage and shorter working hours in a market economy we can also see that the struggle was confrontational and justified. Whatever the working people gained came at the exercise of struggle and unionization especially after the New Deal and the great depression when the market system could not cope with the unemployment and the poverty.

In terms of human happiness, I still fail to see it. Is the human being at his or her happiest when he or she has a shopping bag? Probabley not. Materialism was never a cause for happiness.

When we look around us and see the dislocation in the world that has been caused by the market economy and the suffering I think that it becomes clear that the market economy is not a souce for genuine human happiness.

In terms of India and China, yes certain groups have benefited as in Russia but most of the population has been left out of loop and I can be sure that within the dominant populations there is more risk and more uncertainty.

What is socialism? I think that the concept is within the name---the social aspects of life and our relationship with other humans and the planet that we live on. What is capitalism? It is also found within its name---capital---investments, profitability, finance, stocks, markets etc---nothing about people in that name.

As I looked at pictures of New Orleans I can see 'capital' at work but unfortunately I saw very little of the word 'social'---putting people first before profitablity.

[Fredl]

Thank you, Why Me, for the clarification.

Now, I think it very unlikely that I will change one iota of your belief system in respect to politics and economics. Trying to do so would be a lot like trying to get the Swiss Watch Makers 50 years ago to imagine a watch industry based on anything other than mechanical watch movements; it was simply outside of their "watch paradigm".

You sound just like me 40 or so years ago. At that time, at least it was a little bit "hip" to accept such notions. For me, however, 40 years of personal and world history were sufficient to convince me of the many fallacies that existed in my thinking at that time.

The current acceptance of free enterprise and globalization in China and India are the result of one indisputable fact: most human beings like material prosperity. In a free enterprise system, those that don't are welcome to adopt any life style they choose. As you point out, those that choose, or have the choice made for them are indeed affected by the activity of those who choose to pursue prosperity but probably in a positive way, for the most part. It is true that in those two countries economic progress is uneven and that those most ready for it are progressing more rapidly than those less so. Under Socialism, however, nobody progressed and the possibility of anybody ever progressing economically scarcely existed.

Free Market Capitalism has energized these two countries enormously. People there work today with extraordinary energy and dedication and it is dedication to working that moves a country forward, not dedication to a discredited scheme of social organization that produces little but the bare essentials of life, if that. One of the truest things I ever heard about the old Soviet Union was that everybody was employed but nobody worked. The fact that bad things exist in the world is not a condemnation of Free Market Capitalism. The issue is, rather, what system best martials the intelligence, effort, and resourcefullness of the people living under it to do something about those bad things.

The resourcefullness of the average human being is amazing when it is required for survival or even prosperity. Also, the propensity of the average human being to adapt to bad habits when enabled to do so is amazing. Socialism is a system which not only permits enablement of lethargy and dependency, it positively mandates it. Wherever you find a form of it, the results are the same. It is the reason we homeschooled our kids, with remarkable results at 1/10th the cost of public school.

Now, I don't expect you will find any of this persuasive. The Swiss Watch Makers were never persuaded that electronic watches would ever amount to anything; they simply went bankrupt. But I have enjoyed the opportunity to state my beliefs in greater detail.

Fred

[free thinker]

Now, I think it very unlikely that I will change one iota of your belief system in respect to politics and economics. Trying to do so would be a lot like trying to get the Swiss Watch Makers 50 years ago to imagine a watch industry based on anything other than mechanical watch movements; it was simply outside of their "watch paradigm".


The only way to change the mind of a socialist to a capitalist is to have them become wealthy. Once they have a large asset base they generally will move into a protective stance. They generally would not, for example, receive a large inheritance, and then disburse it based on the idea of social equality.


ft

[Fredl]

ft, I think you're absolutely correct in terms of their use of their own, personal fortunes. However, their parsimony does not extend to my nor your income or life savings. In many or most cases their politics do not change as they evolve into "Limosine Liberals". It is my understanding that the net worth of Democrats in Congress considerably exceeds that of Republicans.

I'd very much like to see a study done relating personal charity as a function of income and net worth between self described "Liberals" and "Conservatives". I have never seen such a study but if the way Bill Gates spends his money as compared to George Scouros is any indication I think it would provide great comfort to Conservatives.

Fred

[lunaverse]

The only way to change the mind of a socialist to a capitalist is to have them become wealthy. Once they have a large asset base they generally will move into a protective stance. They generally would not, for example, receive a large inheritance, and then disburse it based on the idea of social equality.


This is sometimes true. I have one friend who is now more libertarian than self-described "armchair socialist" only in part because of my arguments -- the rest happened because as a successful sys admin, he keeps moving into higher and higher tax brackets.

Another friend was a flaming liberal who dreamed of a post-apocyliptical socialist-anarchist utopia in Montana... She is still working min wage jobs, and working on getting through school, but over the years she has slowly been converted merely on my arguments and Penn and Teller's BullShit show. :)

Luna

[lunaverse]

It is the reason we homeschooled our kids, with remarkable results at 1/10th the cost of public school.


Greets Fred! I was one of the first legal homeschoolers in the state of Washington. I started in 4th grade during the 1st year pilot program, and carried on till college. Yay homeschooling!

Luna

[Fredl]

Greets Fred! I was one of the first legal homeschoolers in the state of Washington. I started in 4th grade during the 1st year pilot program, and carried on till college. Yay homeschooling!

Luna

Well, that certainly explains a lot; homeschoolers seem to have an unfair advantage in life, having avoided the effects of spending several years in Public School!

We've provided our kids with a sort of mixed education, about 2/3rds homeschooling mixed with the experience of attending public or private school every couple of years. Twice, this has resulted in my withdrawing one in the middle of the year as the experience proved completely unacceptable. We felt, however, that we wanted to give them as broad an education as possible and that experiencing public school would contribute to that. This year they are both attending public school. They are both very popular. Rick is in his Junior year, a year ahead of his peers, received a 3.8 GPA for the 1st Quarter and participated in Cross Country. Mimi received 6 As and 1 B for the 1st Quarter and was "Student of the Month" last month. We are very proud of them.

By the way, I am just crazy about the picture on your posts. Who is this girl? I think I'm developing a crush on her!

Fred

[lunaverse]

Well, that certainly explains a lot; homeschoolers seem to have an unfair advantage in life, having avoided the effects of spending several years in Public School!

When I first started researching this mind control subject, as a joke I started comparing the BITE model to public schools, and it quickly stopped being so funny.... :) I haven't taken a serious look at this, partly because I'm afraid to, and partly because I've been busy, and partly because I don't want to detract from the seriousness of the Mormon/cult relationship.

Rick is in his Junior year, a year ahead of his peers, received a 3.8 GPA for the 1st Quarter and participated in Cross Country. Mimi received 6 As and 1 B for the 1st Quarter and was "Student of the Month" last month. We are very proud of them.

That's awesome. :)

The greatest gifts I got from homeschooling was the ability to think for myself regarding non-Church subjects, and the habit of researching random interesting topics. Granted, I had the myth that once out of school I didn't need to do that so much, but now that I've rid myself of that myth, I can tap into fearless personal study, as that's how I learned most things to begin with.

I feel however that part of my parents motivation was to "further keep me unspotted from the world", which kind of bugs me. :/ And unspotted I was, to the point of being naieve (sp). Which caused me quite a few problems at one point in life.

So I have some mixed feelings. Most of them positive. :)

By the way, I am just crazy about the picture on your posts. Who is this girl? I think I'm developing a crush on her!


Hehe, thanks :) I made that at a website where you alter variables to make your own pic. I tried to make it look as close to me as possible.

Keep an eye out, I'm planning soon to post some real pics of me from Halloween...

Luna

[free thinker]

By the way, I am just crazy about the picture on your posts. Who is this girl? I think I'm developing a crush on her!

Fred


I like it too. Something about it.

And when will we be seeing the live pic's? :cool:


ft