Bitter?

[lunaverse]

In light of the following scriptures:

2 Nephi 2:11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

Moses 6:55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

D&C 29:39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

... I have to wonder why TBMs get so upset when they think we're bitter? Based on their own doctrine, aren't we making things more sweet for them?

:)

Anyhow, I always loved these sorts of Taoist scriptures...

Luna

[peter_mary]

The two things I hear from virtually every PostMo is:

1) I'm happier now than I've ever been; and

2) The guilt is gone!

Now in light of the scriptures you've cited above, what role has the Church played in our lives? Perhaps it was the "bitter" that we experienced for a season that we might savor the sweetness that waits on the other side?

3rd Peter_Mary 4:16 "For verily, verily, thus sayeth the Lord, that all who have labored under the false happiness of the Churches of men will come to know the true happiness of freedom when the shackles are broken and they have been liberated."

1st Peter_Mary 12:9 "And it came to pass that the prophetess Dogzilla did stretch forth her hand and command the children of the wicked Church of her father to see.

12:10 "And it came to pass that the scales fell from their eyes and they saw that they were guilt-ridden, and the guilt was the burden of the great and abominable Church.

12:11 "And it came to pass that when the prophetess Dogzilla did shew unto them their guilt, they desired to be free from it.

12:12 "And it came to pass that she commanded them to remove the garment of leaves they had sewn for themselves in the Garden the Church had prepared for them, and when they had done so, they were freed from the bonds of the Church.

12:13 "And it came to pass that once they had been freed, they reveled in their nakedness and were no more ashamed of their humanity."

My guess is this isn't EXACTLY what ole' Joe had in mind, but it certainly seems to have application, eh? :)

Peter_Mary

[free thinker]

Love this thread. And yes let me state this to any reader.

Believe this as you would betting on the sun rising tommorrow.


MY LIFE IS ONE BILLION TIMES BETTER NOW THAT I HAVE RESIGNED MY MEMBERSHIP IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.

I am happier.

I am more content.

I feel less guilt.

I have become more compassionate.

More caring of my fellow man.

Less egotistical.

I think more clearly.

I revel in my agency.

I am more honest with myself.

I enjoy my work more.

I am less money centered.

I love getting out of bed in the morning.

I could go on but let me finish with the words of Martin Luther King Jr.


FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, FREE AT LAST.


free thinker

[silverfox]

The two things I hear from virtually every PostMo is:

1) I'm happier now than I've ever been; and

2) The guilt is gone!

Now in light of the scriptures you've cited above, what role has the Church played in our lives? Perhaps it was the "bitter" that we experienced for a season that we might savor the sweetness that waits on the other side?

3rd Peter_Mary 4:16 "For verily, verily, thus sayeth the Lord, that all who have labored under the false happiness of the Churches of men will come to know the true happiness of freedom when the shackles are broken and they have been liberated."

1st Peter_Mary 12:9 "And it came to pass that the prophetess Dogzilla did stretch forth her hand and command the children of the wicked Church of her father to see.

12:10 "And it came to pass that the scales fell from their eyes and they saw that they were guilt-ridden, and the guilt was the burden of the great and abominable Church.

12:11 "And it came to pass that when the prophetess Dogzilla did shew unto them their guilt, they desired to be free from it.

12:12 "And it came to pass that she commanded them to remove the garment of leaves they had sewn for themselves in the Garden the Church had prepared for them, and when they had done so, they were freed from the bonds of the Church.

12:13 "And it came to pass that once they had been freed, they reveled in their nakedness and were no more ashamed of their humanity."

My guess is this isn't EXACTLY what ole' Joe had in mind, but it certainly seems to have application, eh? :)

Peter_Mary

heeeeeeeeeheeeeeeeeeheeeeeeeee :D

Let me say it "outloud" one more time

I AM HAPPIER THAN I HAVE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER BEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

To add to Free Thinker's list

When life's challenges arise I no longer feel that I am 1) being punished or 2) being "tried" IMO, $hit just happens. Period. To everybody. It's called, um, let's see, it's a four letter word.....oh yeah, LIFE.

[miss taken]

Love this thread. And yes let me state this to any reader.

Believe this as you would betting on the sun rising tommorrow.


MY LIFE IS ONE BILLION TIMES BETTER NOW THAT I HAVE RESIGNED MY MEMBERSHIP IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.

I am happier.

I am more content.

I feel less guilt.

I have become more compassionate.

More caring of my fellow man.

Less egotistical.

I think more clearly.

I revel in my agency.

I am more honest with myself.

I enjoy my work more.

I am less money centered.

I love getting out of bed in the morning.

I could go on but let me finish with the words of Martin Luther King Jr.


FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, FREE AT LAST.


free thinker

I agree with your list here Free Thinker, though I was never money centred anyways!!!

But why!......Why!!!! Sometimes I have a hard time analysing why it should be so, when the LDS motto is that their definition of the gospel should have everything in it to ensure 'happiness.

Not everyone feels this way who is active, many tell us that they are all those things and more.

So what is it about us and our thinking that leads to these conclusions.

And I really do agree with you! :)

Mary

[why me]

I think that happiness is achieved outside the church and perhaps more so than within the church.

But why? Perhaps it has more to do with no longer living a god-centered life. Life can be still godly but not god-centered. Also, it is always much easier to swim down stream than to swim upstream and a church life is a constant swim upstream. It is this upsteam swim that causes tiredness and depression. Also let's face it---the 'world' seems to be heading in the opposite direction to what is taught by the church. At least this is my observation.

Perhaps morality and how to conduct one's life will return to a more family-centered time and maybe values will become more wholesome in the future.

But at this moment I have the impression that this is not happening. Well anyway this is only an opinion and a certain feeling about just how the 'world' is now operating these days.

[miss taken]

I think that happiness is achieved outside the church and perhaps more so than within the church.

But why? Perhaps it has more to do with no longer living a god-centered life. Life can be still godly but not god-centered. Also, it is always much easier to swim down stream than to swim upstream and a church life is a constant swim upstream. It is this upsteam swim that causes tiredness and depression. Also let's face it---the 'world' seems to be heading in the opposite direction to what is taught by the church. At least this is my observation.

Perhaps morality and how to conduct one's life will return to a more family-centered time and maybe values will become more wholesome in the future.

But at this moment I have the impression that this is not happening. Well anyway this is only an opinion and a certain feeling about just how the 'world' is now operating these days.

Hey Why me!
You know I am not going to agree with you on a LOT of your assumptions here.

Please define godly and god-centred. In my experience of ALL the people I have ever associated with in the church I would say they were no more godly or god centred than the many deists/followers of God outside the LDS church, and I am only including theists here, there are many atheists who live really difficult ethical lives. Your assumptions seem so black and white.

If Jesus said by loving one another you show your love for God, then I see no more or less of this in the LDS church at a practical level than outside the LDS church.

The world is full of opposites, the world is full of opportunities to make a variety of decisions. People screw up, they learn, they move on.

Mary

[silverfox]

I think that happiness is achieved outside the church and perhaps more so than within the church.

But why? Perhaps it has more to do with no longer living a god-centered life. Life can be still godly but not god-centered. Also, it is always much easier to swim down stream than to swim upstream and a church life is a constant swim upstream. It is this upsteam swim that causes tiredness and depression. Also let's face it---the 'world' seems to be heading in the opposite direction to what is taught by the church. At least this is my observation.

Perhaps morality and how to conduct one's life will return to a more family-centered time and maybe values will become more wholesome in the future.

But at this moment I have the impression that this is not happening. Well anyway this is only an opinion and a certain feeling about just how the 'world' is now operating these days.

Geeez. Maybe as an inactive Mo or a never TBM you may have felt YOU were swimming against the stream.

But for me and I am sure as well for many other Post Mos it was very easy being Mo. Decisions were made for you. You knew what to think, what to feel. Hell, you even knew how you were supposed to vote. blah blah blah

I think you should be careful how you categorize Post Mos as not living god centered lives. What the hell is THAT supposed to mean? Just because one is no longer a member of TSCC doesn't mean they don't live god centered lives or very good lives with focus on family and good.

Since when does believing in a god or being a member of a church guarantees a good family centered life?

Sheeesh.

[hamar]

Geeez. Maybe as an inactive Mo or a never TBM you may have felt YOU were swimming against the stream.

But for me and I am sure as well for many other Post Mos it was very easy being Mo. Decisions were made for you. You knew what to think, what to feel. Hell, you even knew how you were supposed to vote. blah blah blah

I think you should be careful how you categorize Post Mos as not living god centered lives. What the hell is THAT supposed to mean? Just because one is no longer a member of TSCC doesn't mean they don't live god centered lives or very good lives with focus on family and good.

Since when does believing in a god or being a member of a church guarantees a good family centered life?

Sheeesh.

Your's and FT's comments are both homeruns for me. When I received my graduation letter this week from Greg Dodge I reflected for a few moments on what it meant and came to the same basic conclusion that FT listed above. Absolutely no remorse whatsoever. Except that I wish I had never led my children into that church. My daughter is more out than in, because her DH left a couple of years ago and she is slowly following him out as well. She has told me that she has experienced a much more intense (read better) relationship with her DH since he has left the church. My son remains firmly wrapped in the tennacles of the church and IMO he is not happy. He would not agree with me, of course, but it is true.
As for a God centered life; I can't believe that a normal individual would make a generalization about PostMos not being God centered. If anything, I would say my life is more God/Christ centered than when I was TBM! I've found a bible that I can actually read and understand and enjoy reading now. I don't think I'll ever associate myself with another organized religion, but that doesn't mean I've cast off "the church", since I now believe, the church resides in our hearts and minds. Enough said, I reckon.

[darkslider]

I agree with your list here Free Thinker, though I was never money centred anyways!!!

But why!......Why!!!! Sometimes I have a hard time analysing why it should be so, when the LDS motto is that their definition of the gospel should have everything in it to ensure 'happiness.

Not everyone feels this way who is active, many tell us that they are all those things and more.

So what is it about us and our thinking that leads to these conclusions.

And I really do agree with you! :)

Mary

Something popped into mind, while reading this post, and if you will excuse my foray into the realm of bad movies. . . I would like to visit the Matrix.

During the course of the Matrix series, we discover that the Matrix has been redesigned several times.

To quote the Architect, "The first version was perfect. A utopia. Its greatness was second only to its abject failure. The humans rejected it. Entire crops were lost."

And, if you think about it, he has a point. As humans, we have to maintain that struggle between pain/comfort, happy/sad, good/evil.

Without that, our minds cannot cope.

The LDS Church, in its efforts to create a utopia, have failed. We are proof of its failure.

Anyways, enough deranged ramblings.

[free thinker]

But why? Perhaps it has more to do with no longer living a god-centered life. Life can be still godly but not god-centered. Also, it is always much easier to swim down stream than to swim upstream and a church life is a constant swim upstream. It is this upsteam swim that causes tiredness and depression. Also let's face it---the 'world' seems to be heading in the opposite direction to what is taught by the church. At least this is my observation.

Mary

For me the difference is that now I am living as I want, not as I think I should.

I have not drifted into aimless immorality etc. I still live a somewhat quiet and sedate life. But now I am really being me. Not what is expected of me.

And as has been said before " .... that has made all the difference"..

And let me add this from the front page of this site. I think it fit's here?

We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community.


ft

[peter_mary]

I have not drifted into aimless immorality etc.

ft
Should we assume that your immorality is "with aim?"

:D

Peter_Mary

[free thinker]

Should we assume that your immorality is "with aim?"


PM, as usual you crack me up. :cool:

Since I was a mo for so long it is taking me some time to be effectively immoral. I have found that it is an aquired skill rather than being innate.

I am working on it though. :p


Hi Ho, Hi Ho it's off to work I go!


ft

[peter_mary]

Should we assume that your immorality is "with aim?"


PM, as usual you crack me up. :cool:

Since I was a mo for so long it is taking me some time to be effectively immoral. I have found that it is an aquired skill rather than being innate.

I am working on it though. :p


Hi Ho, Hi Ho it's off to work I go!


ft

Hmmm...there's a Peep Stone in there somewhere... "Immorality is an aquired skill, not innate." Actually, that would make a fine signature for someone! Think I'll try that out!

[miss taken]

But why? Perhaps it has more to do with no longer living a god-centered life. Life can be still godly but not god-centered. Also, it is always much easier to swim down stream than to swim upstream and a church life is a constant swim upstream. It is this upsteam swim that causes tiredness and depression. Also let's face it---the 'world' seems to be heading in the opposite direction to what is taught by the church. At least this is my observation.

Mary

For me the difference is that now I am living as I want, not as I think I should.

I have not drifted into aimless immorality etc. I still live a somewhat quiet and sedate life. But now I am really being me. Not what is expected of me.

And as has been said before " .... that has made all the difference"..

And let me add this from the front page of this site. I think it fit's here?

We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community.


ft

Yes, Free Thinker, you do realise that I did not pen what you have underlined. They are Whyme's thoughts and reflections not mine!!?????

[miss taken]

Everything else you write I totally agree with FW.
I feel that way myself.

:)

Mary

[free thinker]

Yes, Free Thinker, you do realise that I did not pen what you have underlined. They are Whyme's thoughts and reflections not mine!!?????


Foiled again by why-me! :D

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.



Hmmm...there's a Peep Stone in there somewhere... "Immorality is an aquired skill, not innate." Actually, that would make a fine signature for someone! Think I'll try that out!


You flatter me PM. :cool: The ultimate compliment.

Other than a post-mo lass calling me handsome. :rolleyes:


ft