Could private rooms be fostering immorality issues?

[elder_nomo]

I saw this on RfM and just had to share it here.
In a nutshell: the prez of BYU-Idaho "suggested that immorality and addiction to pornography can sometimes be linked to having one’s own room and mentioned the idea of eliminating private rooms at BYU-I."

See the full story here.....
http://www.byui.edu/scroll/20051101/opinion2.html

[Born Free]

I saw this on RfM and just had to share it here.
In a nutshell: the prez of BYU-Idaho "suggested that immorality and addiction to pornography can sometimes be linked to having one’s own room and mentioned the idea of eliminating private rooms at BYU-I."

See the full story here.....
http://www.byui.edu/scroll/20051101/opinion2.html

Why stop there?

Fix the problem at the cause. Cut off the offending hand!

Big Eddy will love this one! Pulpit idiots!

Daryl

[silverfox]

I saw this on RfM and just had to share it here.
In a nutshell: the prez of BYU-Idaho "suggested that immorality and addiction to pornography can sometimes be linked to having one’s own room and mentioned the idea of eliminating private rooms at BYU-I."

See the full story here.....
http://www.byui.edu/scroll/20051101/opinion2.html

Are you F*ING kidding me????? This is just completely f*ed up $hit. Seriously.

It makes me absolutely sick. Wow.

Taking away one's PRIVACY? Like there is anything to 'solve' anyway?

From the link:

When students feel that nobody will catch them, they are more likely to do things they otherwise would avoid.

Student privacy might already be impaired by the regulations of the school, but ecclesiastical leaders, parents and administration might continue to push for less student privacy.

In a recent address to the Housing Office and other guests, President Kim B. Clark responded to the concern about students who have private rooms.

He suggested that immorality and addiction to pornography can sometimes be linked to having one’s own room and mentioned the idea of eliminating private rooms at BYU-I.

This from an organization that has no issues leaving adults (adults new to the area many times) with no background checks alone with little children in a small room or in their homes or better yet on camping trips, etc.

Riiiiiiiiight.

I can't understand why anyone would PAY to go to YBU and be treated in such a manner.

Before you know it they will have hidden cameras in the rooms.

[silverfox]

Why stop there?

Fix the problem at the cause. Cut off the offending hand!

Big Eddy will love this one! Pulpit idiots!

Daryl

heh heh You are too much, BF! Glad to see you back around. And to think you were so close yet so far away. sigh

[lunaverse]

Taking away one's PRIVACY? Like there is anything to 'solve' anyway?


Eh, this way there are just more opportunities for better sex -- I mean, girl on girl or boy on boy action is preferable to some than masturbation.

Luna

[silverfox]

Eh, this way there are just more opportunities for better sex -- I mean, girl on girl or boy on boy action is preferable to some than masturbation.

Luna

What will they do about bathrooms and showers???? No doors? No shower curtains? No toilet paper?? heeeeheee this just sounds sillier and sillier the more I think about it!

[flotsam]

And our cold air comes from Canada. Therfore, we should eliminate Canada.

[meinmachine]

And our cold air comes from Canada. Therfore, we should eliminate Canada.


Yes! Great Idea,....er... wait a minute!

[why me]

Of course this whole thing sounds crazy. But I think that the bigger question is: Why is pornography so prevalent in american society? Why is there such immorality in our society? And why has depression become such an empidemic?

I jsut cannot equate this with the church or with BYU-I. There is a national malaise and desease in these above areas. Yesterday in the Financial Times it was reported that there seems to be a nostalgia for the 1950's. And of course we know that in the 50's, family, sexual purity, school discipline and a more simple lifestyle was the norm.

But to try and find the answers to my questions will not be easy. There is so much hidden meaning in american society as demonstrated through the media that it is not perhaps surprising that our young people seem lost in space...the consumer lifestyle does not provide a root to grow healthy fruit...the root needs different soil....but where to find a good root to grow our children as a community of human beings?

[aether]

Ha. This is stupid for two reasons.

#1: They're trying to restrict free agency among the students, which goes against gospel principles.

#2: It's not going to change anything. Having roommates doesn't prevent anyone from watching porn, masturbating, or having sex. Believe me, I know from personal experience. It's also not difficult to hide alcohol even from a roommate.

This is silly. It'll be ineffective and will do nothing except make the students feel more restricted, which might lead to rebellion and in the end will probably cause the university's success to go down.

[aether]

Of course this whole thing sounds crazy. But I think that the bigger question is: Why is pornography so prevalent in american society? Why is there such immorality in our society?

What? Who says that pornography is immoral? Did God come down from heaven and tell you that? I must have missed the memo.

[peter_mary]

What? Who says that pornography is immoral? Did God come down from heaven and tell you that? I must have missed the memo.

::grin::

This really nails it, doesn't Aether? Now they are going to have to get VERY specific about what is pornographic, what is art, what is appropriate...blah, blah, blah.

This is the problem with this kind of reasoning on the part of the Church. Once you start down that path of CAREFULLY proscribing what is appropriate behavior, you find that you can never stop.

Of course, they could "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves," but then they'd all be out of work...

Peter_Mary

[silverfox]

My responses to why_me's post in green:
Of course this whole thing sounds crazy. But I think that the bigger question is: Why is pornography so prevalent in american society? Why is there such immorality in our society? And why has depression become such an empidemic?

What sources say either are an epidemic and more prevalent in the US? (just wondering where you are getting your stats)

I jsut cannot equate this with the church or with BYU-I. There is a national malaise and desease in these above areas. Yesterday in the Financial Times it was reported that there seems to be a nostalgia for the 1950's. And of course we know that in the 50's, family, sexual purity, school discipline and a more simple lifestyle was the norm.

Did I miss something? I think the issue that is being discussed is taking away someone's privacy - not blaming YBU or the church for the existence of porn or immorality.

And I disagree about what went on in the 50s. IMO, it was all there, baby, all of it. Porn, rape, abuse, immorality, back alley abortions, etc,etc. It's just that the media wasn't there to make us so aware of it. Or the technology. Things were not talked about. The stuff may have been harder to get at but none the less, it was definitely there. I grew up in an inner city and believe me, it was there. I witnessed it. So I don't buy this crap that the 50s were so innocent. As far as I am concerned a lot of people were just better actors.

But to try and find the answers to my questions will not be easy. There is so much hidden meaning in american society as demonstrated through the media that it is not perhaps surprising that our young people seem lost in space...the consumer lifestyle does not provide a root to grow healthy fruit...the root needs different soil....but where to find a good root to grow our children as a community of human beings?

I think our youth is pretty damned smart these days. I seriously don't think they are any more lost than we were growing up. They have more options and are exposed to more things but why does that have to necessarily be a bad thing? The best we can do is arm them with knowledge, information and try to teach responsibility. And also display respect for them and the challenges they may face. Hiding things away isn't solving anything at all.

Porn and other issues need to be discussed, not shoved under a rug or hidden in a closet. Let's talk with them about why it exists, why it can be so desirable, etc. Putting kids under a 24/7 monitor isn't helping anything. It just creates more curiosity and desire.

[lunaverse]

Of course this whole thing sounds crazy. But I think that the bigger question is: Why is pornography so prevalent in american society? Why is there such immorality in our society? And why has depression become such an empidemic?

You make a couple of assumptions here, the first is that sex (and that which is sex-related) is immoral. Other that sourcing holy books, do you have a good argument for this? How does pornography and masturbation harm society? How does safe, responsible sex outside of marriage hurt anyone? More importantly, what do these things have to do with depression? Current studies linking these two subjects are finding regular sex actually makes people less depressed...

I jsut cannot equate this with the church or with BYU-I. There is a national malaise and desease in these above areas. Yesterday in the Financial Times it was reported that there seems to be a nostalgia for the 1950's. And of course we know that in the 50's, family, sexual purity, school discipline and a more simple lifestyle was the norm.

Acutally, we don't of course know that the 50's were all about family, purity, etc. We do know that these ideals were promoted and expounded upon at great length in the media (TV, movies, etc). However this ideal was not in fact reached in many homes. Alcoholism, teen pregnacy, abuse, and drugs -- all of these things existed, and existed in plenty. In fact, while I don't have any stastics to prove my point, I would wager that in many cases, these problems were worse -- because people weren't allowed to talk about it. A pregnant teen's life was ruined -- not because just because she now had a baby to worry about, but also because her and her child would be rejected by society. The family of an alcoholic had no one to turn to, no one to talk to, no community programs for assistance. In fact, they'd be lucky to even have awareness that alcohoism existed and was the source of their problems.

I would argue that the openness of our society today is to be praised. Openness allows for honesty and for facing reality, and these two points are key to resolving serious problems. The 50's mentality would have us ignore our problems in the hopes that denial will make them go away. I'd rather have an open society where all our problems are visable, rather than one that turns to "Donna Reed" as a fascade to hide a dark, dysfunctional underbelly.

Luna

[lunaverse]

I think our youth is pretty damned smart these days. I seriously don't think they are any more lost than we were growing up. They have more options and are exposed to more things but why does that have to necessarily be a bad thing? The best we can do is arm them with knowledge, information and try to teach responsibility. And also display respect for them and the challenges they may face. Hiding things away isn't solving anything at all.

Porn and other issues need to be discussed, not shoved under a rug or hidden in a closet. Let's talk with them about why it exists, why it can be so desirable, etc. Putting kids under a 24/7 monitor isn't helping anything. It just creates more curiosity and desire.

I absolutely agree. My mother tried to isolate me from the world, and she succeeded. And as a result, I entered the adult world naive as hell. And I suffered for it. I was completely unprepared to make the decisions I had to make. It was like sending a baby into a swordfight with no armor. (The armor of God didn't help either!) All I knew was that sex was bad, that my body was shameful, and that I should never to go into a boy's bedroom.

A world of hurt, that's all that caused. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

Luna

[free thinker]

Welcome to BYU.

Please note: This is a no masturbation zone.


Johny Cochran would have said it like this.


" If you must masturbate don't come through the gate". :D


Of man. Dont you just love BYU? Let him with a free hand cast the first stone.

ft

[Born Free]

<snip>

Before you know it they will have hidden cameras in the rooms.

That would make it MoPornCam I guess!

Daryl

[why me]

My responses to why_me's post in green:
Of course this whole thing sounds crazy. But I think that the bigger question is: Why is pornography so prevalent in american society? Why is there such immorality in our society? And why has depression become such an empidemic?

What sources say either are an epidemic and more prevalent in the US? (just wondering where you are getting your stats)

I jsut cannot equate this with the church or with BYU-I. There is a national malaise and desease in these above areas. Yesterday in the Financial Times it was reported that there seems to be a nostalgia for the 1950's. And of course we know that in the 50's, family, sexual purity, school discipline and a more simple lifestyle was the norm.

Did I miss something? I think the issue that is being discussed is taking away someone's privacy - not blaming YBU or the church for the existence of porn or immorality.

And I disagree about what went on in the 50s. IMO, it was all there, baby, all of it. Porn, rape, abuse, immorality, back alley abortions, etc,etc. It's just that the media wasn't there to make us so aware of it. Or the technology. Things were not talked about. The stuff may have been harder to get at but none the less, it was definitely there. I grew up in an inner city and believe me, it was there. I witnessed it. So I don't buy this crap that the 50s were so innocent. As far as I am concerned a lot of people were just better actors.

But to try and find the answers to my questions will not be easy. There is so much hidden meaning in american society as demonstrated through the media that it is not perhaps surprising that our young people seem lost in space...the consumer lifestyle does not provide a root to grow healthy fruit...the root needs different soil....but where to find a good root to grow our children as a community of human beings?

I think our youth is pretty damned smart these days. I seriously don't think they are any more lost than we were growing up. They have more options and are exposed to more things but why does that have to necessarily be a bad thing? The best we can do is arm them with knowledge, information and try to teach responsibility. And also display respect for them and the challenges they may face. Hiding things away isn't solving anything at all.

Porn and other issues need to be discussed, not shoved under a rug or hidden in a closet. Let's talk with them about why it exists, why it can be so desirable, etc. Putting kids under a 24/7 monitor isn't helping anything. It just creates more curiosity and desire.
The porn industry and its effects have been portrayed in depth at this site:

www.third-way.com/news/THE_PORN_STANDARD.pdf

According to the report porn is a 12 billion dollar business annually and there are 420 million individual pornographic webpages today, up from 14 million in 1998.
The report also states that the main consumers of internet porn are between the ages of 12 to 17 years of age.

There is plenty of more information in the report. I agree with your end paragraph but unfortunately such discussions between parents and children do not seem to be happening and if they are happening, these discussions are not so successful.

The nostalgia for the 50's is more due to a preconceived notion of a rooted life and a more simpler life-style . Of course there were problems then but as one looks back, the problems were not as rampant as they seem to be today.

Check out the website and report...children do not seem to be that 'smart'.

[why me]

What? Who says that pornography is immoral? Did God come down from heaven and tell you that? I must have missed the memo.
Go to a porn shoot and see for yourself whether or not it is immoral.

In many cases, how the women are treated in the movies is immoral. Many are 'forced' to do certain things that they may not wish to do just to keep working in the business.

This was recently brought out during the aids scare that hit the porn industry in California a few months ago when an actor and two actresses came down with hiv.

That being said I have also liked the movies but I also know what goes on behind the scenes and it does seem to be immoral in my opinion.

Like most 'made for profit' big businesses exploitation is the name of the game in the porn industry.

[silverfox]

The porn industry and its effects have been portrayed in depth at this site:

www.third-way.com/news/THE_PORN_STANDARD.pdf

According to the report porn is a 12 billion dollar business annually and there are 420 million individual pornographic webpages today, up from 14 million in 1998.
The report also states that the main consumers of internet porn are between the ages of 12 to 17 years of age.

There is plenty of more information in the report. I agree with your end paragraph but unfortunately such discussions between parents and children do not seem to be happening and if they are happening, these discussions are not so successful.

The nostalgia for the 50's is more due to a preconceived notion of a rooted life and a more simpler life-style . Of course there were problems then but as one looks back, the problems were not as rampant as they seem to be today.

Check out the website and report...children do not seem to be that 'smart'.

Okay, per your link, I am not seeing where this "epidemic" is unique to the US.

I disagree with your idea that the problems were not as rampant in the 50s.

The questions are....if a teenage boy views porn is it immoral? And what is considered porn? And by who's standards?

I am not disagreeing that there isn't damage being done. But the point of this thread, why_me, is that YBU wants to take away someone's privacy to try to avoid something that they can not control. And again, what's next? Removing bathroom doors? Shower curtains? Tying everyone to their beds?

Let's get back on track. What are your feelings about a person's privacy being taken away because an organization is afraid they might view porn, masturbate, have sex?

How would you have reacted under such circumstances as a college student?

[silverfox]

Go to a porn shoot and see for yourself whether or not it is immoral.

In many cases, how the women are treated in the movies is immoral. Many are 'forced' to do certain things that they may not wish to do just to keep working in the business.

This was recently brought out during the aids scare that hit the porn industry in California a few months ago when an actor and two actresses came down with hiv.

That being said I have also liked the movies but I also know what goes on behind the scenes and it does seem to be immoral in my opinion.

Like most 'made for profit' big businesses exploitation is the name of the game in the porn industry.

So what is really immoral? The work ethics or the actual porn? It comes down to being a matter of opinion.

Again, let's get back on track. Would you want YOUR privacy taken away?

[silverfox]

So what is really immoral? The work ethics or the actual porn? It comes down to being a matter of opinion.

Again, let's get back on track. Would you want YOUR privacy taken away?

Remember this thread? http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=535&highlight=pornography

Walking Pornography - it's a discussion on what the church may feel is considered pornography.

Sooooooo those YBU students better think twice before clicking on that Sears or JC Penney online catalog. :D

[hamar]

I absolutely agree. My mother tried to isolate me from the world, and she succeeded. And as a result, I entered the adult world naive as hell. And I suffered for it. I was completely unprepared to make the decisions I had to make. It was like sending a baby into a swordfight with no armor. (The armor of God didn't help either!) All I knew was that sex was bad, that my body was shameful, and that I should never to go into a boy's bedroom.

A world of hurt, that's all that caused. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

Luna

I think that tscc does a pretty poor job of preparing their youth for the real world. A world in which they have to deal with many types of predators. Many young people, women in particular, get their lunch ate (taken advantage of) when they step into the real world because tscc and their parents haven't done a damn thing to prepare them for the reality that there are a lot of folks prepared to take advantage of those whose step into the daylight of reality without any defensive training.

I recall, many years ago listening to members of my law enforcement group saying how much they liked to be sent to SLC for temporary duty, because the mormon girls were easy picking. Now, many years later, I understand what they meant. I'm glad I had a life before tscc, because I taught my kids a little about self preservation in the real world, against what tscc would have wanted, I'm sure.

[aether]

Go to a porn shoot and see for yourself whether or not it is immoral.

In many cases, how the women are treated in the movies is immoral. Many are 'forced' to do certain things that they may not wish to do just to keep working in the business.

Fine. So the mistreatment of women is wrong, not the pornography itself. Does that mean you don't oppose, say... lesbian porn? Or female dominatrix stuff? Or what about animated hentai?

[lunaverse]

I think that tscc does a pretty poor job of preparing their youth for the real world. A world in which they have to deal with many types of predators. Many young people, women in particular, get their lunch ate (taken advantage of) when they step into the real world because tscc and their parents haven't done a damn thing to prepare them for the reality that there are a lot of folks prepared to take advantage of those whose step into the daylight of reality without any defensive training.

Absolutely.. and teaching women to be submissive doesn't help, either. I can't tell you how IMPOSSIBLE it was for me to say NO, *especially* in interpersonal situations, say like when a guy I hardly knew started kissing me...

It's taken years of work to have any level of assertiveness, and I still haven't graduated.

Luna

[hamar]

Absolutely.. and teaching women to be submissive doesn't help, either. I can't tell you how IMPOSSIBLE it was for me to say NO, *especially* in interpersonal situations, say like when a guy I hardly knew started kissing me...

It's taken years of work to have any level of assertiveness, and I still haven't graduated.

Luna

It's a sad thing, but at least you are realizing, now, that you have some options and that NO is one of them. Think of all those that are still wrapped in the tennacles of that church that don't have a clue what awaits them in the real world. Life is good after all is said and done, let the healing begin.
Wouldn't it be great if you could give some "firesides" on survival in the real world?

[Fredl]

OK, boys and girls, I was THERE during the 50s so let me tell you about it.

It was a rather different environment, at least here in the US and in some ways it was better. There was a lot less confusion regarding morality; most everybody shared a common set of morals and pretty much agreed on what was right and wrong. If you had a school yard fight, for example, every one knew what was fair and what was foul. Tv showed a very idealized version of life, but I think there was a degree of recognition that it portrayed things as they should be rather than how they were for many. Well, most.

There was also a very strong sense of identity. I, for example, knew I was American, the most fortunate and best people on Earth and what an important responsibility it was to be an American. It was quite soon after WWII and so, there was considerable respect for our parents and the generation who had preceded us and made such sacrifices for us. I personally knew men who had fought with Patton, flown fighters in the South Pacific and died in North Africa. My own father had not served in the military but had worked on the Manhatten Project as an expert on Florine Chemistry, required to extract U235 from the other, non explosive isotopes. He carried a revolver with him wherever he went until the end of the war.

However, there was, in addition, a darker side to the 50s. A much darker side.

My generation will forever be know as "The Silent Generation". This was because of the crushing sense of conformity that seemed to stifle all creativity, originality, sense of adventure at that time. "Bad kids" smoked, used alcohol, had sex and hit below the belt or kicked in school yard fights. Pretty mild stuff by today's standards. The few voices of dissent, Jack Keroack and the Beats, for example seemed to signify the ineffectuality of protesting the dreary, drab and unexciting nature of the times. And, over everything hung the perceived threat of nuclear annilation by the Soviet Union at any time.

I loved and hated the 50s. From my experience of that decade, and several following it, I came to the conclusion that things are always getting much worse and much better. Are things better today or worse? I'd say absolutely yes!

Fred

[why me]

OK, boys and girls, I was THERE during the 50s so let me tell you about it.

It was a rather different environment, at least here in the US and in some ways it was better. There was a lot less confusion regarding morality; most everybody shared a common set of morals and pretty much agreed on what was right and wrong. If you had a school yard fight, for example, every one knew what was fair and what was foul. Tv showed a very idealized version of life, but I think there was a degree of recognition that it portrayed things as they should be rather than how they were for many. Well, most.

There was also a very strong sense of identity. I, for example, knew I was American, the most fortunate and best people on Earth and what an important responsibility it was to be an American. It was quite soon after WWII and so, there was considerable respect for our parents and the generation who had preceded us and made such sacrifices for us. I personally knew men who had fought with Patton, flown fighters in the South Pacific and died in North Africa. My own father had not served in the military but had worked on the Manhatten Project as an expert on Florine Chemistry, required to extract U235 from the other, non explosive isotopes. He carried a revolver with him wherever he went until the end of the war.

However, there was, in addition, a darker side to the 50s. A much darker side.

My generation will forever be know as "The Silent Generation". This was because of the crushing sense of conformity that seemed to stifle all creativity, originality, sense of adventure at that time. "Bad kids" smoked, used alcohol, had sex and hit below the belt or kicked in school yard fights. Pretty mild stuff by today's standards. The few voices of dissent, Jack Keroack and the Beats, for example seemed to signify the ineffectuality of protesting the dreary, drab and unexciting nature of the times. And, over everything hung the perceived threat of nuclear annilation by the Soviet Union at any time.

I loved and hated the 50s. From my experience of that decade, and several following it, I came to the conclusion that things are always getting much worse and much better. Are things better today or worse? I'd say absolutely yes!

Fred
Also the student movement of the early sixties was in direct reaction to the conformist 50's. The Students for Democratic Society were founded to bring change into the educational and societal structure. The group was basically made up of socialists/liberals.

But fred I haven't figured out if you were pro-50's. I found your ending a little confusing...can you clarify your stance?

[silverfox]

OK, boys and girls, I was THERE during the 50s so let me tell you about it.

It was a rather different environment, at least here in the US and in some ways it was better. There was a lot less confusion regarding morality; most everybody shared a common set of morals and pretty much agreed on what was right and wrong. If you had a school yard fight, for example, every one knew what was fair and what was foul. Tv showed a very idealized version of life, but I think there was a degree of recognition that it portrayed things as they should be rather than how they were for many. Well, most.

There was also a very strong sense of identity. I, for example, knew I was American, the most fortunate and best people on Earth and what an important responsibility it was to be an American. It was quite soon after WWII and so, there was considerable respect for our parents and the generation who had preceded us and made such sacrifices for us. I personally knew men who had fought with Patton, flown fighters in the South Pacific and died in North Africa. My own father had not served in the military but had worked on the Manhatten Project as an expert on Florine Chemistry, required to extract U235 from the other, non explosive isotopes. He carried a revolver with him wherever he went until the end of the war.

However, there was, in addition, a darker side to the 50s. A much darker side.

My generation will forever be know as "The Silent Generation". This was because of the crushing sense of conformity that seemed to stifle all creativity, originality, sense of adventure at that time. "Bad kids" smoked, used alcohol, had sex and hit below the belt or kicked in school yard fights. Pretty mild stuff by today's standards. The few voices of dissent, Jack Keroack and the Beats, for example seemed to signify the ineffectuality of protesting the dreary, drab and unexciting nature of the times. And, over everything hung the perceived threat of nuclear annilation by the Soviet Union at any time.

I loved and hated the 50s. From my experience of that decade, and several following it, I came to the conclusion that things are always getting much worse and much better. Are things better today or worse? I'd say absolutely yes!

Fred

I am curious where you grew up. Suburbs? Inner City? I have found extreme differences in lifestyles and what one can be exposed to between the two. I grew up in a large inner city.

[Fredl]

Hi SF and WM. To answer your questions:

My ending reflected my deep ambivalence about the 50s; there were things I deeply loved about it and things I disliked very much indeed. In thinking back to it, it seemed like such a simple time with so much more time available for reflection and just "being". At the same time, it seemed like what people were aware of was so much more limited. So much has changed since then. Are we better or worse off? I'm simply not sure. Maybe our perception of every period of time depends upon us rather thanm the times themselves.

I grew up 3 miles outside of Wilmington, Delaware. At that time, we considered ourselves to be living in the country. It was an area of "Truck Farms" and abandoned farms growing up into Eastern Hardwood Forest, as well as remnants of the older broadleaf forest which had grown there for millenia. My father was a research chemist for the DuPont Company. Those days were before it became fashionable to bash big corporations and DuPont was reverred in Wilmington. I went though 1-12 there, then on to Rutgers University. I went on to teach Jr. High School Math and Science near Denver Colorado, then into the USMC.

The suburbs began their development in the mid 50s when I was in HS. They did not color my perception of the world nearly so much as the countryside that preceded them.

Interestingly, I made a visit to my Alma Mater, Rutgers, right after I finished MC Basic School and learned that the 60s had hit my old fraternity the year sfter I left with full force. The nature of Campus politics had changed completely. Issues had changed dramatically and the "style" of student politics had changed. Life would never be the same at Rutgers!

Fred

[peter_mary]

...I found this to be very interesting...and enlightening.


I loved and hated the 50s. From my experience of that decade, and several following it, I came to the conclusion that things are always getting much worse and much better. Are things better today or worse? I'd say absolutely yes!

Fred
Furthermore, Fred, I think the following is exactly what people are afraid to say about the 50s, speaking to the difficulties that came from the strong sense of unity during and immediately after WWII, but that seemed to leave no room for self-exploration, individual expression, etc. which led ultimately to explosion we know as the 60's:

My generation will forever be know as "The Silent Generation". This was because of the crushing sense of conformity that seemed to stifle all creativity, originality, sense of adventure at that time. "Bad kids" smoked, used alcohol, had sex and hit below the belt or kicked in school yard fights. Pretty mild stuff by today's standards. The few voices of dissent, Jack Keroack and the Beats, for example seemed to signify the ineffectuality of protesting the dreary, drab and unexciting nature of the times. And, over everything hung the perceived threat of nuclear annilation by the Soviet Union at any time.
I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed this post, Fred...

[peter_mary]

Maybe our perception of every period of time depends upon us rather thanm the times themselves.

Fred
I think this nails it, Fred. I do believe that so many of the "issues" we experience between generations is due to the sense we all have that "our generation" or "our class" or "our group" was the best/did it right. I have believed for years now that society moves along like a giant wave, with the young people surfing the face of it, the middle aged people getting tired and finding themselves at the top of the wave, and the old people left bobbing out in the sea after the wave has passed.

The youth of every generation know how to suck the life and energy out of their current generation. The middle aged folks hang in their by trying to keep up with their kids, but eventually, it gets too hard, and they get left behind. Unfortunately, they get left behind, but are shaking their heads wondering what's going to happen to the current generation that seems to be "going to hell in a handbasket."

Well, it probably just isn't so. If I've learned one thing, it's that there's an enormous amount to be gained by watching and learning from the current, rising generation. Aether, my own kids, their friends, are hardly going to hell in a handbasket...they are simply redefining the course of history. And those of us who are older have a choice...we can learn from them and with them, and keep riding that wave, or we can shake our heads in passing judgement, and get left behind. We aren't going to change the course of the wave. We either learn to surf with "the latest equipment" or we watch as they move on without us. Those are the choices, it seems to me.

So I couldn't agree more when you ask the question, is our perception about each time period an accurate reflection of the objective nature of that period in time, or more a projection of ourselves? I'm, obviously, inclined to believe the latter.

[why me]

I think the problem with self-exploration is found within the world 'self'. What is self-exploration and how does it benefit the community. The whole idea that we should be free to explore whatever the self deems fit can carry seeds of destruction as the 'self' becomes oppressive toward others.

I have never considered life to be an odessy of constant discoving and journeying like some vagabond in the wilderness. Eventually, human life needs some roots to grow and to prosper within a feeling of connection to the whole and not a separation from this wholeness of life.

The 5o's certainly had their problems but at least back during that decade there were some forms of commonality taught. And yes, perhaps this decade was conformist but I also think that many parents today would love to have the 50's back in the school system.

And in some ways this is probably happening as dress codes are introduced and dicipline makes a comeback.

As far as BYU-I, well...an university student is an university student and free agency or choice needs to be respected and honored but I have this feeling that as a society we are in moral crisis or a melt down and something needs to changed to create a common value structure that most could agree on and build from that commonality of purpose.

[why me]

Okay, per your link, I am not seeing where this "epidemic" is unique to the US.

I disagree with your idea that the problems were not as rampant in the 50s.

The questions are....if a teenage boy views porn is it immoral? And what is considered porn? And by who's standards?

I am not disagreeing that there isn't damage being done. But the point of this thread, why_me, is that YBU wants to take away someone's privacy to try to avoid something that they can not control. And again, what's next? Removing bathroom doors? Shower curtains? Tying everyone to their beds?

Let's get back on track. What are your feelings about a person's privacy being taken away because an organization is afraid they might view porn, masturbate, have sex?

How would you have reacted under such circumstances as a college student?
The porn 'problem' is a western problem that is also centered in Europe but it certainly has its roots in the good ol' USA.

I understand the issue of privacy but I am not certain that we humans can be trusted with ourselves alone. There are so many negative influences in our society that I believe that the human mind is becoming more and more warped. I have had this feeling that what was once normal has become abnormal and what was once abnormal has now become normal. In other words, we seem to be living upside down and view such a life as now normal.

Can we be trusted alone? Probably not. But I suppose the issue is one of adulthood and fee will or agency.

The human mind cannot be controllded in this day and age and the human individual expects complete freedom of action as long as it feels good and stays within the confines of the law.

Eat, drink and be merry seems to be the rule of law during these postmodern times.

[aether]

Well Why Me, you can start with declaring your own ambiguous values. You never responded to my question about pornography. Are you going to do so? Or are you just avoiding it?

[peter_mary]

I think the problem with self-exploration is found within the world 'self'. What is self-exploration and how does it benefit the community. The whole idea that we should be free to explore whatever the self deems fit can carry seeds of destruction as the 'self' becomes oppressive toward others.


This seems like a dangerously narrow view of "self," i.e. that the "self" is likely a monster that, left unchecked, would unleash misery and suffering on the masses.

I tend to see it differently.

I am inclined to believe that healthy communities are comprised of healthy "selves," and that the lack of self-exploration on the part of individuals leaves a community devoid of people who are wise, or who have anything of inherant value to bring to the collective table!

In the field of relationships, we always talk about "take care of yourself first, so you have something to give to someone else." A metaphore we often use is one you always see when you fly on an airplane. When the flight attendant does that little pre-flight brief, and they talk about what to do "in the unlikely event of a loss of cabin pressure," what do they always tell parents who are flying with children? "Put your own mask on first, and then put the mask on your child." Why? Because if you aren't taking care of you, you won't be ABLE to take care of someone else.

Self-exploration seems to me to be in the very same category. How can you possibly know someone else, their needs, their faults, their wants, their dreams, their hopes...if you don't know yourself?

Does this mean that there is no such thing as a "selfish person," and that some people can take it to extremes? Of course not. But why diminish the power of something so good because a few people wouldn't know what to do with it? The same argument could be made for the internet, money, books, education, etc, all of which CAN be mishandled by people with twisted ideas, but those exceptions don't make the rule.

Why does the notion of "self" have to be ugly? I guess I just disagree, mi amigo.

[free thinker]

This thread is an example of what I like about being here.

Love you guys!! :cool:



PS The ultimate compliment."Immorality is an aquired skill rather than innate." --Free Thinker
I get to be PM'S signature. :cool:


ft

[lunaverse]

I think the problem with self-exploration is found within the world 'self'. What is self-exploration and how does it benefit the community. The whole idea that we should be free to explore whatever the self deems fit can carry seeds of destruction as the 'self' becomes oppressive toward others.

WhyMe, many of us, in fact a very large number, explore self without oppressing others. Self-interest and ethics are not mutually exclusive, nor does conscious self-interest generally lead to oppression of others. Self-interest *can* result in harm to others, but doesn't have to, nor does it usually. Those who give it much thought will realize it is not in one's best interest to, say, go about stealing, maiming, murdering, lying, etc. I can get what I want without harming anyone, and usually it leaves me with more friends... which is of GREAT benefit to me. Most people realize this. You're not giving humanity enough credit.

Coversely, selfLESSness does not have a good track record for ethical behavior. Some of the largest community-focused organizations in the world have been the most brutal and cruel. If you can convince people to give up their selves, which includes their right to protest, their ability to think clearly on their own and make their own decisions, then you can manipulate a large group of people into accepting and doing *anything*, including murdering millions in their own country.

It's happened time and time again. I shouldn't have to name examples. And I'm not just referring to modern examples -- it happened in medieval times as well. Justifaction for all types of atrocities are not in the name of "self" but are in the name of some greater cause -- the good of society, the good of the children, the good of God, the good of the King. The message is, "Self should be subjected to this greater good", and the "greater good" is usually not so pleasant for anyone.

Name one leader that has rallied the people to commit massive atrocities in the names of the individuals he commands... Name one. You will find that all appeal to the group, or some other cause.

Luna

[lunaverse]

Eat, drink and be merry seems to be the rule of law during these postmodern times.

So?

:)

In other words, what is your basis of these things being a problem? If one remains responsible in their pleasure-taking, then what, in fact, is wrong with it?

Luna

[lunaverse]

This seems like a dangerously narrow view of "self," i.e. that the "self" is likely a monster that, left unchecked, would unleash misery and suffering on the masses.

I tend to see it differently.

I am inclined to believe that healthy communities are comprised of healthy "selves," and that the lack of self-exploration on the part of individuals leaves a community devoid of people who are wise, or who have anything of inherant value to bring to the collective table!


Yep!! I couldn't find a place to easily add in my post the actual benefits of self-exploration. Many people who have expressed a feeling of being tapped into their "authentic self" create marvelous inventions, artwork, scientific discoveries, and unique professions that contribute quite a lot to the world.

Just because they enjoy their work doesn't mean they aren't contributing. If anything, they're contributing more because they've found their calling and are passionate.

Like the age-old advice to writers, "Write what you know"... It means, tap into what embodies you, your experiences, knowledge, talents, feelings, and reflect it out so others can benefit if they choose. It applies to music, art, and even to more mundane professions, like medicine, engineering, psychology, and technical support. :)

Luna

[silverfox]

The porn 'problem' is a western problem that is also centered in Europe but it certainly has its roots in the good ol' USA.

I understand the issue of privacy but I am not certain that we humans can be trusted with ourselves alone. There are so many negative influences in our society that I believe that the human mind is becoming more and more warped. I have had this feeling that what was once normal has become abnormal and what was once abnormal has now become normal. In other words, we seem to be living upside down and view such a life as now normal.


I don't think I understand. What do you mean that humans can't be trusted alone??? Do you mean the YBU students or all humans? (I am envisioning Big Brother cameras in all our homes, in each room, etc) I don't get what you mean at all.

It seems you are focusing on the negative influences society may have??? I find this so very sad. There are so many wonderful people and positive influences in the world.

[Fredl]

[QUOTE I have this feeling that as a society we are in moral crisis or a melt down and something needs to changed to create a common value structure that most could agree on and build from that commonality of purpose.[/QUOTE]

Why Me, this is a common perception among idealistic young men without a broad experience of life. In reality, it is simply your reaction to the world as it is, not much different from how it was and probably not much different from how it will be in the future. As you mature, if you are observant, you will come to learn that the poor are no more virtuous than the rich and powerful; in fact, arguably less so. You will also come to learn that forming the monolithic sort of organization of society that is the dream of Socialism leads to a concentration of power in a ruling class that inevitably creates misery for almost everybody under them.

No my friend, it is the common experience of mankind that the best government is that government which governs least and is the most restricted in its power. What makes you think that Socialism will somehow create noble, sefless human beings who would govern wisely and well? If such human beings existed, any system would work just fine. No, I'm afraid that power in any form acts exactly like Frodo Baggins' ring and seduces its possessor into acting much differently with it acting as protection from the consequences that other wise result from unwise actions. No my friend, I would far rather live with the ills that exist in a society with wide distribution of of economic, political, military, judiciary and other form of power than the world of concentrated power that you imagine would only be used for "good" that you are proposing.

Best that you use your time and effort for doing good and productive things on a small scale, thus creating value for others and compensation for yourself rather than figuring out how I should have my freedom taken away.

Fred

[lunaverse]

I don't think I understand. What do you mean that humans can't be trusted alone??? Do you mean the YBU students or all humans? (I am envisioning Big Brother cameras in all our homes, in each room, etc) I don't get what you mean at all.


This leads me to wonder...

Hey Why_Me, have you ever read 1984? Or do you at least plan to? If not, why?

If you have read it, what did you think?

Luna

[elder_nomo]

With regards to the decade of the 50's...
They were NOT the good old days if you happened to be black or gay.
I'm not saying there was nothing good about those times, but as others have mentioned, a lot depends on your individual perspective. I, for one, am very very happy those days are over.

[flotsam]

The porn 'problem' is a western problem that is also centered in Europe but it certainly has its roots in the good ol' USA.

I wonder. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot calling it "the porn problem?"

I'm staring to wonder if strongly charged concepts aren't better test driven than shunned.

I had a professor who said that when something repells us, that's the first indicator that we need to explore it.

How could we approach this porn thing better than our dear friends the "pulpit idiots." What is porn saying? Surely its a voice from within us.

I understand the issue of privacy but I am not certain that we humans can be trusted with ourselves alone.

Strangely, my time in Alaska, so far from the maddening crowd, has done worlds of good for me (unless you happen to be an orthodox Mormon). It has been nothing short of cathartic (a five year, subtle catharsis) to have all this time to myself, free of the static and demands of family, church, Utah culture. I've finally found a bit of myself. And suddenly the world explodes.

I may have to return to the lower-48 soon. Hopefully I've developed myself enough that I won't be overcome again. It's weird, I feel like Jesus or something, going out into the desert. Of course, in the desert you meet the devil in several disguises. And each time, the devil teaches you something new.


There are so many negative influences in our society that I believe that the human mind is becoming more and more warped. I have had this feeling that what was once normal has become abnormal and what was once abnormal has now become normal. In other words, we seem to be living upside down and view such a life as now normal.

With great embarassment, I come out of the closet.

I am a post-modern man.

When the world was ordered, I was smothered. Once I took that order and made it fluid, I could swim, and therefore breathe.

Not a day goes by when I don't try to turn the world upside down again. Make the abnormal normal, and the normal abnormal. It's like eating. I have to do it, or I slowly asphyxiate.

I don't offer this as a great triumph or manifesto. I present it as my bread and water.

I understand that my methods disturb some people. And some of those people I admire. The only assurance I can offer them is that I will puruse my path as rigorously as they did theirs, and that I will listen to the stories of their journeys gladly.

[why me]

Well Why Me, you can start with declaring your own ambiguous values. You never responded to my question about pornography. Are you going to do so? Or are you just avoiding it?
I have been following the porn business since 1976. That is quite a long time. I have seen the 70's, 80's 90's and now the current decade.

During this time I have seen changes in the business itself and in the ways that business is done in the porn industry. Now I am now expert but the direction of porn is more exploitative of the female 'talent'. It is not an easy business to be in but the money can be good but the nature of the sex acts as shown on most xxx dvd's tends to be more and more perverted and dehumanized.

In this case I think that porn is nothing more than the exploitation of the female body in its grossest forms, especially the gonzo films where 'innocent' girls are interviewed and sex follows.

That being said the way porn films are made for viewing I can say that lust is a major factor and love is nowhere in site. It has become much more raunchier now. And as some porn producers have claimed: the women are used and then spit out of the industry as sex scenes become more bizarre and porn actresses are required to do those scenes or not work.

My personal opinion is that porn is addictive but does serve its place in society. Unfortunately, the way sex is now portrayed in the industry does not create a positive opinion of women and female sexuality.

[why me]

[QUOTE=flotsam]I wonder. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot calling it "the porn problem?"

How could we approach this porn thing better than our dear friends the "pulpit idiots." What is porn saying? Surely its a voice from within us.

I am a post-modern man.
QUOTE]
Exactly, it is the voice within us and what does that voice speak to us from within?

Of course the answer is individualized but I think that we can claim that there is a general voice that crys out as Edvard Munck's 'The Scream' cries out from the canvass.

The pain, and the rage are within our society as much as there is love and forgiveness. Unfortunately it is the pain and the rage that gives its own manisfestations within the greater whole of life and society as sea changes occur on a daily basis within our own superstructure. And for many this is the voice that speaks from within---the voice of pain and rage. (Notice the rioting in France)

What does it mean to be human? Does being human mean that we are on a postmodern odessy of self-discovery where interest only is there to serve the self? Are we humans meant to be on a constant space odessey of configuration as we mutate in all directions? I don't think so.

The postmodern human can become a mutated life-form separated from holistic shapes and experiences. I think that we humans need good wholesome collective truths---truths that have served us well throughout the centuries. But what are they? I can no longer identify a collective truth. Why? because collective truths are held up in suspect.

Postmodern man is a rejection of absolute truth and a recognition that there is no truth---only individual experiences that become ones own personal truth.

I would rather be a man born in modernity---a time of truths and collective struggles for a better world and for a better civilization.

[why me]

[QUOTE I have this feeling that as a society we are in moral crisis or a melt down and something needs to changed to create a common value structure that most could agree on and build from that commonality of purpose.

Why Me, this is a common perception among idealistic young men without a broad experience of life. In reality, it is simply your reaction to the world as it is, not much different from how it was and probably not much different from how it will be in the future. As you mature, if you are observant, you will come to learn that the poor are no more virtuous than the rich and powerful; in fact, arguably less so. You will also come to learn that forming the monolithic sort of organization of society that is the dream of Socialism leads to a concentration of power in a ruling class that inevitably creates misery for almost everybody under them.

No my friend, it is the common experience of mankind that the best government is that government which governs least and is the most restricted in its power. What makes you think that Socialism will somehow create noble, sefless human beings who would govern wisely and well? If such human beings existed, any system would work just fine. No, I'm afraid that power in any form acts exactly like Frodo Baggins' ring and seduces its possessor into acting much differently with it acting as protection from the consequences that other wise result from unwise actions. No my friend, I would far rather live with the ills that exist in a society with wide distribution of of economic, political, military, judiciary and other form of power than the world of concentrated power that you imagine would only be used for "good" that you are proposing.

Best that you use your time and effort for doing good and productive things on a small scale, thus creating value for others and compensation for yourself rather than figuring out how I should have my freedom taken away.
Fred[/QUOTE]

Actually fred, capitalism is rather new to this world and very much a western manifestation. When the first settlers arrived to the new world they did not find a greedy individual but rather they found a civilization that was far superior to their own. The indian and the people of the islands had more in common with one another than difference.

They lived a different lifestyle--where greed played only a small part if at all. In fact, the new explorers were very much impressed with those civilizations that they came into contact with. One could say that these civilizations lived a christian lifestyle without the christ in the religion.

It was western man that brought the corrupting influence of superiority and private property to these civilizations much to those civilizations destruction. They also presented them with a new value structure---one centered on western man and women.

Your Theorowism from his pamphet on civil disobedience (Governs least comment) is noted but with capitalism---a system which stresses naked self-interest and greed---cannot have a limited government unless you want mass starvation and poverty as existed during the great depression until the government kicked in its resouces to rescue people from their own poverty.

Have you seem life under capitalism with limited government? It is hell---just read Dickens and Gaskell the novelists. And search how living conditions were in such capitalist societies. Horrible is the word to describe it. But such was life during the age of the robber barron and industrialization.

It has nothing to do with immaturity fred as with being human and redefining the basic nature of the human spirit and mind.

What is human nature? I have no idea but I have always believed that human nature is molded together by the economic structure which influences and creates the human condition.

Again fred, poverty has increased in america and as we can see from latin america I have many comrades in that part of the world as red flags were flying and posters of che guevara (killed by the CIA) were waving in the wind. And Hugo Chavez spoke to the hearts and to the humanity of those who listened to him. And Bush??

[helemon]

I saw this on RfM and just had to share it here.
In a nutshell: the prez of BYU-Idaho "suggested that immorality and addiction to pornography can sometimes be linked to having one’s own room and mentioned the idea of eliminating private rooms at BYU-I."

See the full story here.....
http://www.byui.edu/scroll/20051101/opinion2.html

Interesting how the prez of BYU-Idaho is not concerned with how sharing a room can be very distracting for students which could negatively impact their ability to focus on their studies.

With all the former elders and mission presidents in the church you would think that the church would know that sharing a bedroom doesn't prevent missionaries from masturbating, and that porn is not a required motivator for the urge to masturbate.

My view of the intelligence of this former Dean of the Harvard School of Business has taken a dramatic drop. :duh

[why me]

I don't think I understand. What do you mean that humans can't be trusted alone??? Do you mean the YBU students or all humans? (I am envisioning Big Brother cameras in all our homes, in each room, etc) I don't get what you mean at all.

It seems you are focusing on the negative influences society may have??? I find this so very sad. There are so many wonderful people and positive influences in the world.
Look around and notice all the cameras that are watching you....why are there so many cameras? Because we humans cannot be trusted. Yes 1984 has arrived but we just haven't noticed yet...cameras are everywhere...on the streets and in shops and yes even in homes there are cameras watching babysitters and nannies.

No, I am afraid silverfox that we have become so corrupted that the sytem which has corrupted us has now placed us under close scrutiny. Freedom has become a morphed word without meaning and yet we are told that cameras in schools and in the workplace and on our streets are for our own protection from other human beings....do you now get it?

BYU-I is just another manifestation of an age of distrustfulness, as we humans become 'alien' humans, without the knowledge of just what is a genuine human being in postmodernity.

[why me]

So?

:)

In other words, what is your basis of these things being a problem? If one remains responsible in their pleasure-taking, then what, in fact, is wrong with it?

Luna
Ah yes, here we have the word 'responsible' once more. I am just at this moment failing to see 'responsible' humans. Responsiblity takes self-reflection and awareness...and also education. I fail to see this happening in the general population at large...but I hope that you do.... :)

[helemon]

I have been following the porn business since 1976. That is quite a long time. I have seen the 70's, 80's 90's and now the current decade.

During this time I have seen changes in the business itself and in the ways that business is done in the porn industry. Now I am now expert but the direction of porn is more exploitative of the female 'talent'. It is not an easy business to be in but the money can be good but the nature of the sex acts as shown on most xxx dvd's tends to be more and more perverted and dehumanized.



I have heard just the opposite. I have heard that there are vastly more protections for the women. There are regulations and unions (you should like that). And some of the best companies like Vivid do make the health and well being of their actresses a priority. Some producers like Candide Royale develops films specifically aimed at the interests of women. Shows like Bliss on the Oxygen channel are also geared more toward women and have more of a developped storyline. Yes there is some bizzare stuff out there, but this is true of the film industry in general. Personally I think that it is because society has become more accepting of the porn industry that has allowed it to become a safer industry. But I suppose you would rather all porn was produced by the mafia and crime rings like it was in the good old days?

[why me]

I have heard just the opposite. I have heard that there are vastly more protections for the women. There are regulations and unions (you should like that). And some of the best companies like Vivid do make the health and well being of their actresses a priority. Some producers like Candide Royale develops films specifically aimed at the interests of women. Shows like Bliss on the Oxygen channel are also geared more toward women and have more of a developped storyline. Yes there is some bizzare stuff out there, but this is true of the film industry in general. Personally I think that it is because society has become more accepting of the porn industry that has allowed it to become a safer industry. But I suppose you would rather all porn was produced by the mafia and crime rings like it was in the good old days?

Well comrade helemon you have listed some good ones in your post. I remember candida royale during the 70's.

She was a good actress in the movies that she starred in. But helemon there are thousands of producers out there and most abuse a women's sexuality. The business during the good ol' days was a small manifestation on the american scene with a handful of actors and actress crossing the threshold of porn.

Now...it is foot loose and fancy free and very unregulated...but of course sharon mitchell and her adult industry health center in california is doing its best to bring safty to the industry. Look up her health center in google...it is very interesting.

What mafia? Furgitaboutit helemon..there aint no such thing as the mafia...are you stupid or sumthin? Getta life willya!

[silverfox]

Look around and notice all the cameras that are watching you....why are there so many cameras? Because we humans cannot be trusted. Yes 1984 has arrived but we just haven't noticed yet...cameras are everywhere...on the streets and in shops and yes even in homes there are cameras watching babysitters and nannies.

No, I am afraid silverfox that we have become so corrupted that the sytem which has corrupted us has now placed us under close scrutiny. Freedom has become a morphed word without meaning and yet we are told that cameras in schools and in the workplace and on our streets are for our own protection from other human beings....do you now get it?

BYU-I is just another manifestation of an age of distrustfulness, as we humans become 'alien' humans, without the knowledge of just what is a genuine human being in postmodernity.

I can see value in having cameras in public places for evidence if needed later.

We are talking two different things here.

Why should YBU CARE that much about what students are doing in the privacy of their own room? Of course there are rules to follow, etc but you can't continually FORCE people to comply. It's impossible. by removing a student's privacy is just silly. Especially when the focus is on porn or sex. If students want it they will find it.

[silverfox]

Ah yes, here we have the word 'responsible' once more. I am just at this moment failing to see 'responsible' humans. Responsiblity takes self-reflection and awareness...and also education. I fail to see this happening in the general population at large...but I hope that you do.... :)

I think you are one of the most depressing people I have been around in a looooong time.

If you fail to see responsible humans it has to be by choice. How very sad.

[why me]

I think you are one of the most depressing people I have been around in a looooong time.

If you fail to see responsible humans it has to be by choice. How very sad.
Oh, I see responsible people silverfox but I consider responsible people to be in the minority and not in the majority of the population.

But what does it mean to be responsible? Responsibility implies awareness, education, self-reflection, activism, and holism.These are just a few ingredients for responsibility, imo.

[why me]

I can see value in having cameras in public places for evidence if needed later.

We are talking two different things here.

Why should YBU CARE that much about what students are doing in the privacy of their own room? Of course there are rules to follow, etc but you can't continually FORCE people to comply. It's impossible. by removing a student's privacy is just silly. Especially when the focus is on porn or sex. If students want it they will find it.
They shouldn't. I agree.

But the premise still remains that as human individuals we are no longer trusted by our country's elite and by our peers.

Trust is in short supply in this postmodern age.

[silverfox]

They shouldn't. I agree.

But the premise still remains that as human individuals we are no longer trusted by our country's elite and by our peers.

Trust is in short supply in this postmodern age.

I see trust at work everyday in my workplace, with friends, neighbors, etc. It's a beautiful thing.

[aether]

Trust is in short supply in this postmodern age.

Um... you think that might be because there are some people like you who believe in things like "I am just at this moment failing to see 'responsible' humans. Responsiblity takes self-reflection and awareness...and also education. I fail to see this happening in the general population at large."

You can't trust people when you blindly judge the majority of everyone you meet to be irresponsible. Why are you trying to place the blame on the "short supply of trust" on the leaders, when it is actually derived from people like you?

[Jeff_Ricks]

I saw this on RfM and just had to share it here.
In a nutshell: the prez of BYU-Idaho "suggested that immorality and addiction to pornography can sometimes be linked to having one’s own room and mentioned the idea of eliminating private rooms at BYU-I."

See the full story here.....
http://www.byui.edu/scroll/20051101/opinion2.html
So now the flag-waving patriotic Mormon leaders want to take away the right to privacy? The Constitution was set in place mostly to protect us from religious oppression and abuse, and it's a damn good thing we have it! Otherwise we'd have fallen victim to religious oppression a long time ago (as if it doesn't exist now in many respects Utah).

Jeff

[lunaverse]

Ah yes, here we have the word 'responsible' once more. I am just at this moment failing to see 'responsible' humans. Responsiblity takes self-reflection and awareness...and also education. I fail to see this happening in the general population at large...but I hope that you do.... :)

Responsibility does take awareness, etc. It also implies that you are acting in ways to mitigate risk of negative consequences. Like the driver of a car who maintains his tires and brakes, keeps his eyes on the road, and wears a seat belt to lower the high risk of him dying in an accident.

Most of the people I know are self-aware and educated when it comes to sex and their other risky pleasurable activities they engage in (including hiking and mountain climbing!). I think most adults are. The problems tend to come more in the younger crowd (late teens, early 20's) and I attribute their immaturity in these areas NOT to the rise in Porn and "immorality" but due to oppressive upbringings where their parents taught them denial rather than awareness of self and others and surroundings and risks and risk control. They were taught to abstain from sex, that having sexual feelings makes you bad... These things lead to avoidance of thinking about sex and making sound decisions (based in reality) about future actions.

So when opportunities do come along, these kids and young adults are going in blind, without forethought. They never thought, "If I do have sex, I should be aware that I may get pregnant and take steps to prevent that", so when sex comes along, they're unprotected and get preggers or worse...

Had their parents sat them down and taught them to carefully consider all their decisions *no matter what they decide* without moral judgements one way or another, you would see more responsible action regarding sex, drugs, alcohol, and even TV watching, etc. You'd also see more people indulging in the simple pleasures of life, because they're taught pleasure of all kinds is ok.

As a pleasure-avoiding Mo, I was basically oblivious to anything except my misery. My temptations for releif in times of despair leaned towards the extreme, like alcohol or even suicide!

I had to train myself to be aware of what I wanted, and only then could I relax in a hot bath with candles, or snuggle up with hot chocolate and good music on.

Teaching that things are inherently "good" and "bad" discourages thinking and good decision-making. It causes people to become reactive instead of proactive...

Luna

[hamar]

I hate to be too repetitious here, but WTF ever happened to "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves". Doesn't that apply to morg college students? Have they not been assimilated properly into the body of the whole to make "proper" decisions yet? :Crazy:

[why me]

Um... you think that might be because there are some people like you who believe in things like "I am just at this moment failing to see 'responsible' humans. Responsiblity takes self-reflection and awareness...and also education. I fail to see this happening in the general population at large."

You can't trust people when you blindly judge the majority of everyone you meet to be irresponsible. Why are you trying to place the blame on the "short supply of trust" on the leaders, when it is actually derived from people like you?
Well aether the next time you go into a department store go up to the info booth and demand that they begin to trust their customers by removing all the hidden cameras in the store and then demand they remove the detector at the door. Please use your logic and see where it leads..

I think that you will find that they will not trust your logic. Also you can go into a school and demand that all cameras be removed...instruct your school that students need to be trusted and that most or the majority can be trusted. I doubt if they will see you logic also.

Trust equates into responsibility and unfortunately, we, humans, are now looked upon with distrust by schools, security firms, law enforcement and workplaces. We are quite protected from the irresponsible 'minority'...aren't we??

[why me]

Responsibility does take awareness, etc. It also implies that you are acting in ways to mitigate risk of negative consequences. Like the driver of a car who maintains his tires and brakes, keeps his eyes on the road, and wears a seat belt to lower the high risk of him dying in an accident.

Most of the people I know are self-aware and educated when it comes to sex and their other risky pleasurable activities they engage in (including hiking and mountain climbing!). I think most adults are. The problems tend to come more in the younger crowd (late teens, early 20's) and I attribute their immaturity in these areas NOT to the rise in Porn and "immorality" but due to oppressive upbringings where their parents taught them denial rather than awareness of self and others and surroundings and risks and risk control. They were taught to abstain from sex, that having sexual feelings makes you bad... These things lead to avoidance of thinking about sex and making sound decisions (based in reality) about future actions.

So when opportunities do come along, these kids and young adults are going in blind, without forethought. They never thought, "If I do have sex, I should be aware that I may get pregnant and take steps to prevent that", so when sex comes along, they're unprotected and get preggers or worse...

Had their parents sat them down and taught them to carefully consider all their decisions *no matter what they decide* without moral judgements one way or another, you would see more responsible action regarding sex, drugs, alcohol, and even TV watching, etc. You'd also see more people indulging in the simple pleasures of life, because they're taught pleasure of all kinds is ok.

As a pleasure-avoiding Mo, I was basically oblivious to anything except my misery. My temptations for releif in times of despair leaned towards the extreme, like alcohol or even suicide!

I had to train myself to be aware of what I wanted, and only then could I relax in a hot bath with candles, or snuggle up with hot chocolate and good music on.

Teaching that things are inherently "good" and "bad" discourages thinking and good decision-making. It causes people to become reactive instead of proactive...

Luna
True luna and yet, consumer debt has sky rocketed out of control...why? because people are behaving irresponsibly. Plus we have a quite overweight population...not to mention our lust for goods and commodities and the wasteful use of resources of our fine planet that americans daily do. What is responsiblity in this regard?

And aren't some things just naturally 'bad'? And what does it mean 'pleasure of all kinds' is okay?

[why me]

I see trust at work everyday in my workplace, with friends, neighbors, etc. It's a beautiful thing.
You are lucky...now go to bed with your house doors unlocked! :)

I think silverfox that we have very little trust in strangers don't we? And yet, we are also strangers to someone else and so when we distrust strangers we are basically distrusting ourselves.

[silverfox]

You are lucky...now go to bed with your house doors unlocked! :)

I think silverfox that we have very little trust in strangers don't we? And yet, we are also strangers to someone else and so when we distrust strangers we are basically distrusting ourselves.

But we are exposed to strangers EVERY DAY. Well, I am anyway and my children are and my friends are. With all these encounters with strangers that many experience on a day to day basis it's more common that something bad or horrible DOESN'T happen.

How many strangers do you come in contact with in a given day? And how many times has something horrible happened to you? (not really asking, just thinking out loud)

Focus on the GOOD, why_me.

[aether]

Trust equates into responsibility and unfortunately, we, humans, are now looked upon with distrust by schools, security firms, law enforcement and workplaces. We are quite protected from the irresponsible 'minority'...aren't we??

You hit it RIGHT on the nail, Why Me. It is the minority who are irresponsible. How many people do you know personally who would kill their classmates, rob a store, or rape someone if they had the chance?? We do need to be protected from those type of people, but they ARE the minority! Most of everyone I know are responsible people, and the few I know who are irresponsible aren't irresponsible to the point of being dangerous.

I'm betting that it's the same for you. You're not basing any of your ideas on real life, just your imagination.

[lunaverse]

Well aether the next time you go into a department store go up to the info booth and demand that they begin to trust their customers by removing all the hidden cameras in the store and then demand they remove the detector at the door. Please use your logic and see where it leads..

I think that you will find that they will not trust your logic. Also you can go into a school and demand that all cameras be removed...instruct your school that students need to be trusted and that most or the majority can be trusted. I doubt if they will see you logic also.

Trust equates into responsibility and unfortunately, we, humans, are now looked upon with distrust by schools, security firms, law enforcement and workplaces. We are quite protected from the irresponsible 'minority'...aren't we??

WhyMe, there's a huge difference between shoplifting (which damages the store) and masturbating (which hurts no one -- or if you argue it hurts the masturbator, then it hurts him/her, no one ELSE).

Also, those stores don't put in cameras because they think *everyone* would shoplift. They put them in to prevent/catch the very small percentage of the population that does shoplift.

Very Important Note: A very small percentage of the population shoplifts.

You seemed to be claiming in previous posts that very few people are trustworthy and responsible. I argue that *most* people are trustworthy and responsible. Police, cameras, locks on doors, metal detectors -- those are there to get the few people who are not responsible. The existance of these is by no means evidence that we're all hoodlums, theives, and deadbeats.

Most people go to work, pay their rent, take care of their kids, and pay all their bills on time. Most people do not steal, do not maim, and do not murder. It's not cameras and policemen that prevent them from doing things, it's an inner sense of right and wrong, or of ethics, or of karma, or because they want to leave others alone as much as they want to be left alone. Whatever you want to call it, people are responsible from internal motivators, not because someone "out there" is making them.

It's a fallacy to apply the shortcomings of a few criminals to all (or even most) other people.

Luna

[lunaverse]

And aren't some things just naturally 'bad'? And what does it mean 'pleasure of all kinds' is okay?

Indeed, many people are irresponsible when it comes to eating too much and spending too much. I see this as more symptoms of denial and a lack of awareness. Keep in mind that awareness is not generally taught as a virtue in our society. At best, it's ignored. At worst, people are taught to avoid things without thinking -- obey the rules because someone said so, not because it's an intelligent decision. This habit leads people to follow unthinkingly... and if someone isn't there to set the the rules, then people do what they want *without thinking about it*. There is no rule against spending too much, and there is no rule against eating too much... so people spend and eat away. I don't argue for making rules about this, I argue that people should be encouraged to think for themselves more often, in all areas of their lives.

For example, it's a stereotype that Mormons speed. Even when I was Mormon, I theorized that this was the only outlet Mormons had... The Church never specifically harped on how speeding was bad, so many people unconsciously found this as a way to "break the rules" without actually getting in (much) trouble. I believe this is also why soda pop is very popular among Mormons, as well as fatty food. Like the path of least resistance -- no one is constantly issuing commandments not to eat fatty food, and the command against soda pop is so flexible, that people find a safe outlet there.

People have to get enjoyment from something.

To answer your question, "things" can't be naturally bad... actions can be "harmful", "distasteful", "socially unacceptable", "unhelpful", "intolerant", "offensive", etc... but "things" are not inherently "bad".

Bad isn't a very useful word. It makes a moral judgement, but is undescriptive. Why is an action bad? Does it hurt someone? Does it say in the Bible not to do it? Does it make people uncomfortable? Is it risky? Unethical?

I prefer to use descriptive language. It explains why some might consider the action "bad". Yes, I believe some actions are harmful, and some choices lead to sorrow. Certainly murdering your mother or starting a war would be harmful and unethical.

So the question is, what actions do you think are "bad", and why? We've mostly been talking about pleasurable things like sex and chemicals. Why do you believe these things are natually bad? I would consider some of them to be naturally risky... but not bad.

Also, I don't agree that "pleasure of all kinds" is ok. Certainly the pleasure of taking revenge by road raging someone is not ok. Perhaps I should make a more clear statement --

Consentual pleasure that does not cause harm to non-consenters and that is considered carefully so as to reduce risks is ok.

Or as the pagans say, "An' it harm none, do as ye will."

I have found more genuine happiness and fulfillment in life following this one rule, than I ever did collectively in all my years as a Mormon following rules of "this is bad, and that is bad".

Luna

[silverfox]

With regards to the decade of the 50's...
They were NOT the good old days if you happened to be black or gay.
I'm not saying there was nothing good about those times, but as others have mentioned, a lot depends on your individual perspective. I, for one, am very very happy those days are over.

I missed this post earlier. Thank you for sharing very good points. Let's not forget about being female especially in the workforce and when it came to equal pay.

[flotsam]

You hit it RIGHT on the nail, Why Me. It is the minority who are irresponsible. How many people do you know personally who would kill their classmates, rob a store, or rape someone if they had the chance?? We do need to be protected from those type of people, but they ARE the minority! Most of everyone I know are responsible people, and the few I know who are irresponsible aren't irresponsible to the point of being dangerous.

I'm betting that it's the same for you. You're not basing any of your ideas on real life, just your imagination.

Well, Why_me does have a solid basis in Platonic philosophy. You remember the ring of Ganges, right? Thrasymicus' (sp) story about the fellow who finds a ring that will turn him invisible? Well, he uses the ring to get everything he wants. And his rule becomes law. That's basically what Thrasymycus bases his "right equals might" philosophy upon. Simply on the idea that anybody, if given the chance, would gladly abandon the silly rules we call law and ethics to get what he or she wants.

I think it's a compelling fable. Because, really, if I could get away with anything, what would I do. That's a scary thought to pursue. Yet, it seems, to fully realize yourself, perhaps you would have to puruse that thought.

[aether]

I think it's a compelling fable. Because, really, if I could get away with anything, what would I do. That's a scary thought to pursue. Yet, it seems, to fully realize yourself, perhaps you would have to puruse that thought.

Oh I have absolutely no doubt that I would use a gadget like that to get EVERYTHING that I want, with probably very little hesitation.

Let's see.. that would include lots of chocolate, a depletion of pollution, and world peace.

Why is there so much reason to assume that the things EVERYONE want are destructive and immoral?

[helemon]

I think it's a compelling fable. Because, really, if I could get away with anything, what would I do. That's a scary thought to pursue. Yet, it seems, to fully realize yourself, perhaps you would have to puruse that thought.

But think of all that you would loose. If you were invisible no one would know about what you had acquired. If you were invisible no one would acknowledge the good things you did. If you were invisible no one would be aware of your presence which would be extremely isolating and lonely. So while it is interesting to think about all the things you could get away with, it is sobering to think of all the things you would loose.

[flotsam]

But think of all that you would loose. If you were invisible no one would know about what you had acquired. If you were invisible no one would acknowledge the good things you did. If you were invisible no one would be aware of your presence which would be extremely isolating and lonely. So while it is interesting to think about all the things you could get away with, it is sobering to think of all the things you would loose.

Well, he could take it off too ...

[peter_mary]

Well, Why_me does have a solid basis in Platonic philosophy. You remember the ring of Ganges, right? Thrasymicus' (sp) story about the fellow who finds a ring that will turn him invisible? Well, he uses the ring to get everything he wants. And his rule becomes law. That's basically what Thrasymycus bases his "right equals might" philosophy upon. Simply on the idea that anybody, if given the chance, would gladly abandon the silly rules we call law and ethics to get what he or she wants.

I think it's a compelling fable. Because, really, if I could get away with anything, what would I do. That's a scary thought to pursue. Yet, it seems, to fully realize yourself, perhaps you would have to puruse that thought.
I think this is an interesting thought experiment, but it's premise is not really "real," in that we CAN'T be invisible and we CAN'T act with impunity. But it does teach us something about ourselves.

One of the most amazing things about our society in reality is the unspoken, unseen degree of trust that we exhibit with each other EVERY SINGLE DAY. For instance, when you go to a restaurant, you have NO expectation that the cook is going to spit in your food, or give you cat meat when you order chicken. They could, but they don't. You trust them to act responsibly, and almost ALWAYS they do. Why? Because there is no invisibility ring. It is in their own best interest to act responsibly, or they lose their job and possibly the ability to hold a job ever again.

When we drive down the street, we trust that everyone else will obey the laws of traffic, and so we don't even think about the thousands of other drivers we share the road with every single day, because we trust them to act responsibly. Every once in a while, someone makes a mistake, and we have an "accident", and though people might be injured or killed, it's usually simply a mistake, not a malicious act. If it IS malicious, like that idiot who ran over the people in front of Bally's in Las Vegas a few months ago, it makes headlines because it's so unusual. Why do they behave so responsibly? Because it's ultimately in everyone's best interest to do so! And because there is no invisibility ring!

When we go to the hospital, we trust that the people who work there are trained, certified and responsible. So much so, that we entrust our lives to them. Why do they act responsibly with us? Because it is in their own best interest to do so. And because there is no invisibility ring.

My point is, that the invisibility ring example may demonstrate that ultimately we are self-serving, and that it is in fact that self-serving nature that actually PRESERVES a sense of responsibility in human beings. Most of us have an appreciation that acting without responsibility, contrary to the laws of the land and of human decency, lands us in uncomfortable social territory...ostracization, loss of employment, loss of freedom and opportunities, and possibly years in prison. Because we understand that these are possibilities, we understand it is in our own best interest to live cooperatively and responsibly. And MOST of us do.

There are exceptions, and we try hard to protect ourselves from them. But unlike Why_Me, I don't see that as Big Brother trying to control us...I see that as policing ourselves to ensure that the few who don't "get it" don't get away with it.