I need your thoughts again.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Hi folks! Sorry for the length of this post. I need some feedback on some ideas I've had today.

For some time I’ve been trying to come up with a new unique theme for PostMormon.org. Similarly, in my day job as a design engineer/product designer I had been working for almost three years on a new concept for a line of handheld products for the company I work for. Two weeks ago we publicly announced the first product of that product line. I posted a “birth announcement” in our forum about it a few days after we announced it. Central to the concept is the orange rubber shell around the product that is intended to simulate the southern Utah red-rock look (at least as much as is possible in a handheld computer). If you compare our product to others on the market you’ll notice that it is a unique look, and as you know “unique” sticks in people’s minds (as long as it is also simple). And as it turns out it IS sticking in people’s minds, big time! On Monday we discovered that people all over the world are writing about our new product. If you do a search on “Archer Field PC” (use the quotes in the search) you’ll see page after page after page of links to weblog entries and articles about our product. The years of hard work are paying off!

I’m telling you this because I’ve been trying for months to come up with something similar for PostMormon.org. For months I have been looking for some kind of simple, unique “icon” that can be used to tie together a website, billboards and our po-mo family picture on our home page. I felt like it also needs to be something that when incorporated in a design produces something that looks classy, yet somewhat carefree too.

I think I have finally found that icon – a whiteboard and marker concept. It’s simple, something everyone can relate to, works well in both webpage and billboard designs, and an added plus is it can work well with any color scheme. This morning I designed a sample homepage and some sample billboard designs to show you what I mean. Keep in mind that this is particularly unique among the types of advertising found in Mormon communities, and is unique in general (at least I haven’t seen it used anywhere else). I'm sure that people will remember it.

Early in the summer I showed some sketches of the concept to Omar (our advertising/graphics designer at work) and he called the concept a “homerun” and wanted to help refine it, but has never been able to find the time (he’s dealing with a recent divorce). He also advised me to get the PostMormon.org logo trademarked because he said it’ll get a lot of attention. While I came up with the idea months ago, it wasn’t until this morning that I felt like it was starting to work in actual designs, so I decided to show you all so I could get your feedback.

Here’s a sample homepage design:
http://www.postmormon.org/temp/new_sharpie_pen_theme/home.htm

Here’s some sample billboard designs. Notice the whiteboard frame on them. The one at the top might be the only one we do. The others might be too offensive:
http://www.postmormon.org/temp/new_sharpie_pen_theme/billboards.htm

Let me know what you all think. I need your input! I realize that I just revamped the homepage but to be honest with you, to me it’s lacking something. To me it looks too common – nothing really unique about it. I think the new concept has a cleaner, fresher look to it, and the billboard in the homepage makes it unique relative to most website designs. It’s also is more dynamic looking. The billboard designs are clean and simple, very important for billboards because a driver only has a few seconds to absorb their message. Notice that we can play with all kinds of slogans for billboards and everyone still centers around the icon – the whiteboard and marker theme. The icon is a great unifier for everything.

On the support group page I was thinking about doing a whiteboard at the top of the page that has a marker-drawn world map. From that map people will to navigate to the support groups by clicking on group label on the map.

Peter_Mary, you'll notice that the marker concept is already incorporated into the Peep Stone logo. Notice the redlines in the sub-caption of the logo. We can amplify that somewhat – maybe include a marker pen next to the hat or something.

I realize that markers and whiteboards have little to do with post-Mormonism but I think that's a secondary issue. The most important thing is how the icon unifies everything, is unique, is flexible in terms of design possibilities, and it's simple. I suppose we can say that the marker represents the freeform nature of post-Mormonism... or how it represents that we're redefining our life on the fly.

The designs are rough and can still use some refinement, but in general what do you all think?

Thanks!
Jeff

[silverfox]

I love the second link! I don't like the one with the family picture that much. Only because Post Mo isn't unique to families. In fact many marriages fail because of one spouse being Post Mo. I wouldn't want single Post Mos or potential members feeling this site is only for family units.

I need to go back and look at the thread we had asking for ideas. There were some great ones from forum members.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I love the second link! I don't like the one with the family picture that much. Only because Post Mo isn't unique to families. In fact many marriages fail because of one spouse being Post Mo. I wouldn't want single Post Mos or potential members feeling this site is only for family units.

I need to go back and look at the thread we had asking for ideas. There were some great ones from forum members.
Thanks for the feedback! :D What if the family photo was removed and it was just the smiley face and the PostMormon.org logo on the billboard? Does the rest of the page work for you?

Jeff

[wileycoyote]

When I first saw the family picture on the home page 9 months ago. I thought, ya right! It's pretty uplifting and hopeful that your family might turn out that happy,but maybe a little too much so.
About the billboards. I think that just the word post-mormon is not enough. As a believer, I may not have made the connection that these are former members. I used to be fascinated by anything I heard about someone leaving the church. I think the message needs to be clear that post mormons are former believers.
I think the exit sign and save 10% are great. Funny and I don't think I would have been offended.
Anything that said sex would've offended me and I know my Elders quorum would have planned to tear down a sign that knocked Joseph.

[aether]

LOL, I love those billboards!

The "Exit Here" one seems a little confusing to me, but they're all delightful. ^_^

[lunaverse]

LOL!! They're all great!! I laughed right out loud and couldn't stop. On all of them! Especially Save 10%... So freaking funny!

Where is the advertising budget coming from for the billboard concept? I'd love to see billboards all around Utah.

The site design is great, too. I love it.

Luna

[silverfox]

There are some great ideas in this link from a while back. Many of them make me giggle and some don't seem so fitting in relation to what the intent is and has become regarding the forum:

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=269&highlight=billboard

Wow, Jeff. This forum has come a loooong way. I remember when I first visited the board. There was low activity and a few straggler posters.

Amazing.

[silverfox]

I don't like anything that might suggests that the purpose of postmormon.org is to lure church members away. My understanding is that never has been nor will it ever be the intent of postmormon.org.

I view this site as a wonderful rich informative source of support for those who are questioning, exiting or have exited the church.

I think we should be careful what kind of message we send.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I don't like anything that might suggests that the purpose of postmormon.org is to lure church members away. My understanding is that never has been nor will it ever be the intent of postmormon.org.

I view this site as a wonderful rich informative source of support for those who are questioning, exiting or have exited the church.

I think we should be careful what kind of message we send.
I agree Silverfox, PostMormon.org is about the mission statement we agreed on and nothing more or less than that. I think the web address with the smiley face is about as far as we'll ever take the billboard slogans. Anything more than that and the billboard companies most likely won't put it up. But it's kind of fun to play with slogans. :D

Jeff

[free thinker]

Jeff

I love the signs. I like the family picture. I am single but I thought it was attractive when I first saw it. It sets a tone. I agree with the point Silver made though.

I would leave any mention of sex out.

Rock On Post-Mo.

ft

[meinmachine]

I Love the family picture with the white board. It is a great way to look non-threatening and positive.

The others are funny! I think they have a place, but the response will be a little different. What is the purpose of the ads? To invoke thought? Appeal to inactive members? Stop prospective members from joining the church?

I suspect the family one is the best at reflecting the "feel" or atmosphere of this site. But then again, I REALLY thought the other ads were great! I guess it ultimately depends on what message one wants to send.

[hamar]

I'm with Luna on this one; it's not a homerun, it's grand slam. I couldn't stop laughing, they are great. You're probably right though, you'd have a difficult time getting anything other than the PostMo.org up on a bulletin board in Zion. That alone may be difficult in Utah County. I'd love to see one in Rexburg :p

I can see Silver's point about a family out front, but I still like the message that it sends about who we are and what we believe. It has sort of a "we are the true and everlasting postmo group" ring to it.

Let me know when you're ready to get this going, I'm saving a little of my charity fund for the bulletin boards.

[admin]

I Love the family picture with the white board. It is a great way to look non-threatening and positive.

The others are funny! I think they have a place, but the response will be a little different. What is the purpose of the ads? To invoke thought? Appeal to inactive members? Stop prospective members from joining the church?

I suspect the family one is the best at reflecting the "feel" or atmosphere of this site. But then again, I REALLY thought the other ads were great! I guess it ultimately depends on what message one wants to send.
The real intent behind the billboards is not to get people out of the church or keep them from joining, it's to let the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) who have left or are thinking about leaving know that there are others like them out there. I also hope that getting the word out will help ease the discrimination against those who leave by legitimizing them/us as something more than just a handful of crazy protestors.

Jeff

[admin]

The real intent behind the billboards is not to get people out of the church or keep them from joining, it's to let the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) who have left or are thinking about leaving know that there are others like them out there. I also hope that getting the word out will help ease the discrimination against those who leave by legitimizing them/us as something more than just a handful of crazy protestors.

Jeff

By the way, the slogans are something a friend thought up over a year ago. I showed them mostly to show the flexibility of the pen concept. Like I said in other posts, they're fun to play with but it would be hard to find a sign company to put them up. The smiley face one though should be no problem.

Jeff

[flotsam]

My uneducated opinion.

The theme is great. But I don't feel the connection. To me dry-erase markers invoke classrooms and business meetings - which remind me of church. Blech. I think it would work much better to advertise business or classroom applications.

I'd think of some writing implement that is used in less structured contexts. Like a stick drawing in the sand of a beach - or in a zen garden. Or perhaps crayons?

I really like the concept of the first billboard. Simple. Non-agressive. Positive. But the smiley face looks awkward and pinched. As if drawn by someone who is really tense. Need a more flowing-looking face.

[wescape]

Hey Jeff,

I really like the first one with the smiley face. :)

Wes

[why me]

Of course the first site still has the homepage core content of just who are postmormons and the goal that postmo's have in life. Again it says that we are not out to belittle others and so there needs to be a clear definition of just what constitutes belittlement.

In the second site I no longer see the homepage text but I do see something about Joseph's myths which could be construed as belittlement as the founder is a false prophet.

It would be like me calling the popes charletons and imply that it is not my intent to belittle others. I think that this would be a contradiction.

I agree with the family photogragh. It does look like an ensign photo. The smilely face was great!

[Jeff_Ricks]

Of course the first site still has the homepage core content of just who are postmormons and the goal that postmo's have in life. Again it says that we are not out to belittle others and so there needs to be a clear definition of just what constitutes belittlement.

In the second site I no longer see the homepage text but I do see something about Joseph's myths which could be construed as belittlement as the founder is a false prophet.

It would be like me calling the popes charletons and imply that it is not my intent to belittle others. I think that this would be a contradiction.

I agree with the family photogragh. It does look like an ensign photo. The smilely face was great!
Why me, thanks for your feedback. In another post I explained that the billboard designs with slogans probably will never be seen on an actual billboard. Only the one with the smiley face has any realistic possibility of making it on a billboard. As I said, the sign companies probably would refuse to put up the others. Two summers ago I had a hard time getting Reagan Advertising to agree to put up even a billboard that had nothing more than our web address and a photo similar to the family photo. I had to get the Utah ACLU involved, then I finally got a meeting with the President of the company (Dewey Reagan) and he finally reluctantly agreed. Since then I’ve been trying to put in place the things necessary to make putting up billboards worth the the money and effort, and by that I mean this website. I see little point in getting billboards up without a good website to send people to with the billboards. As I said elsewhere I included the billboards with the slogans mostly to show the flexibility of the marker concept. I should have made that more clear when I started this thread.

Regarding the homepage statement: You have brought up the homepage statement several times and each time I’ve responded you ignored my response. Maybe this time you’ll respond to what I say ??? Please. Pretty please, so we can put this issue to rest. Please don’t ignore me this time, why me.

Here I go… again. You point out that the homepage statement says,

“We are not anti-Mormon; it is not our intent to belittle others. In fact, we want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism…”

But you always leave out the rest of the statement. It continues with a big “BUT” statement that you ignore. It says,

“BUT will be open about its misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families and communities. We regret the fact that our openness in this regard hurts some people, but feel that important information has been suppressed for so long within the Mormon community that we should let the chips fall where they may.”

Will you please comment on the second part of the statement this time? You’re right that the Joseph’s myth slogan is belittling but it’s belittling to the religion not to any particular individual. We don’t want PostMormon.org to be known as belittling people but we will be open about the problems we find with Mormonism, recognizing that some people will be hurt by the things we point out. I will say that if telling the truth about Mormonism hurts some people then its really not us that is hurting them, it’s Mormonism doing the hurting. You know the statement, “Sometimes the truth hurts.”

I’m taking bets that why me won’t respond. Sorry why me but this issue is getting very old to me. I’m tired of you bringing it up then ignoring my responses. I’m trying to be nice about this but it’s getting real hard.

Jeff

[Jeff_Ricks]

Thanks for the feedback evernyone!! Your positive and negative comments are very helpful. I welcome and need your ideas and recommendations. Of course they can't all be implimented because some of the comments are in opposition to others. If anyone else has something to add please do. :)

Jeff

[aaronlfa]

I love the second link! I don't like the one with the family picture that much. Only because Post Mo isn't unique to families. In fact many marriages fail because of one spouse being Post Mo. I wouldn't want single Post Mos or potential members feeling this site is only for family units.

I need to go back and look at the thread we had asking for ideas. There were some great ones from forum members.


IMHO I really like the family picture and the home page mission statement. I read it and it resonated with me right away. That is why I came, stayed and quite quickly wrote my resignation letter (I found the right resources through this website).

While I like the family picture a lot, I do agree with the comment about this not just being a place for families. But I think what I like the most about the family picture though is that they are all happy. There is something in every single person’s eyes that expresses a sense of freedom and peace.

Maybe it might be a good idea to keep pictures of people on the website and possibly the build boards, but it could just be a group of happy people (a community), different ages and diversity in race, gender, age etc. They would have to have that same look in their eyes of happiness, no regrets, and relief. Also, this may sound funny, but I would also have one of the people in the picture either male or female wearing a tank top. This will bring out a point that you can actually be a happy person and not have to be wearing your garments to do so. Maybe a silly idea, but just my thoughts.

[silverfox]

Why me, thanks for your feedback. In another post I explained that the billboard designs with slogans probably will never be seen on an actual billboard. Only the one with the smiley face has any realistic possibility of making it on a billboard. As I said, the sign companies probably would refuse to put up the others. Two summers ago I had a hard time getting Reagan Advertising to agree to put up even a billboard that had nothing more than our web address and a photo similar to the family photo. I had to get the Utah ACLU involved, then I finally got a meeting with the President of the company (Dewey Reagan) and he finally reluctantly agreed. Since then I’ve been trying to put in place the things necessary to make putting up billboards worth the the money and effort, and by that I mean this website. I see little point in getting billboards up without a good website to send people to with the billboards. As I said elsewhere I included the billboards with the slogans mostly to show the flexibility of the marker concept. I should have made that more clear when I started this thread.

Regarding the homepage statement: You have brought up the homepage statement several times and each time I’ve responded you ignored my response. Maybe this time you’ll respond to what I say ??? Please. Pretty please, so we can put this issue to rest. Please don’t ignore me this time, why me.

Here I go… again. You point out that the homepage statement says,

“We are not anti-Mormon; it is not our intent to belittle others. In fact, we want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism…”

But you always leave out the rest of the statement. It continues with a big “BUT” statement that you ignore. It says,

“BUT will be open about its misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families and communities. We regret the fact that our openness in this regard hurts some people, but feel that important information has been suppressed for so long within the Mormon community that we should let the chips fall where they may.”

Will you please comment on the second part of the statement this time? You’re right that the Joseph’s myth slogan is belittling but it’s belittling to the religion not to any particular individual. We don’t want PostMormon.org to be known as belittling people but we will be open about the problems we find with Mormonism, recognizing that some people will be hurt by the things we point out. I will say that if telling the truth about Mormonism hurts some people then its really not us that is hurting them, it’s Mormonism doing the hurting. You know the statement, “Sometimes the truth hurts.”

I’m taking bets that why me won’t respond. Sorry why me but this issue is getting very old to me. I’m tired of you bringing it up then ignoring my responses. I’m trying to be nice about this but it’s getting real hard.

Jeff

Awesome, Jeff. It's important for all to remember that the website attracts a specific audience. IMO, the homepage reflects what the majority of those attracted will appreciate. Those leaving the church for the same reasons most of us have left it for will find relief and support in the statements.

TBMs most likely won't even come here and if they do they will realize it's not a site for them and will not be interested. Most likely they will just chalk it up as another "anti-Mormon" site. We appreciate that they will not be interested. Our focus is on helping others who ARE interested in this site.

We won't be able to please everyone and the intent is not to please everyone. This site is for church members who are questioning, leaving or have left the church. This site is here to validate, support and provide information.

There are some good points about the family photo sending a positive non-threatening message. And it reflects happiness and unity after leaving the church. In my case after the initial shock of the betrayal my marriage is stronger than ever. I wasn't sure at first if it would survive but it did and I feel our family unit is much stronger and cherished more deeply.

[silverfox]

IMHO I really like the family picture and the home page mission statement. I read it and it resonated with me right away. That is why I came, stayed and quite quickly wrote my resignation letter (I found the right resources through this website).

While I like the family picture a lot, I do agree with the comment about this not just being a place for families. But I think what I like the most about the family picture though is that they are all happy. There is something in every single person’s eyes that expresses a sense of freedom and peace.

Maybe it might be a good idea to keep pictures of people on the website and possibly the build boards, but it could just be a group of happy people (a community), different ages and diversity in race, gender, age etc. They would have to have that same look in their eyes of happiness, no regrets, and relief. Also, this may sound funny, but I would also have one of the people in the picture either male or female wearing a tank top. This will bring out a point that you can actually be a happy person and not have to be wearing your garments to do so. Maybe a silly idea, but just my thoughts.

I love your ideas! Keeping the family photo but maybe adding another photo of diverse persons is great! AND with some in tank tops, and guys with long hair and beards, different races, all ages including children, teens, etc. Keep it very diverse.

What is interesting though is that many members who leave have huge issues accepting that diversity for quite the while. As post mo I had to learn to be more open and accepting socially. I had to turn off the jude-o-meter internally and take the opportunities to get to know people before making any judgement just based on appearance.

Now I have a large group of very diverse friends and they are all amazing good people.

Jeff, the fact that companies have issues even creating a board is amazing. It also validates that the church's influence is everywhere. Another issue to deal with especially here in Utard.

[peter_mary]

Jeff,

I really like what you've done, and I really like the white-board and marker idea IF it gets used a LOT. If it's only once, on one billboard, then it might not really make sense. But if it gets used many, many times, then it starts to feel like a theme that makes sense.

Let me tell you a personal story.

Many, many years ago, I was working in a "cube-farm" environment, Dilbert style. (I am again, but that's a different story...). My neighbor was a really funny guy, who kept a large whiteboard hanging in his cube right by the doorway. Every day, people would come by and write some funny quote or thought, often something they read in the paper or heard on the radio. Because we were all working in the environmental compliance arena, we were a bunch of tree-huggers, and so some of our favorite quotes were ones from people who had really silly arguments for chasing coyotes with snowmachines, or riding dirt-bikes where ever they wanted, or destroying wolves, or whatever. We LOVED that whiteboard, because it was slightly subversive, very funny, and it was open to everyone.

As with all good things, it was deemed TOO subversive to be found in a Government building and was ultimately banned. But that whiteboard was one of the most meaningful parts of my work experience. It was a means of public expression, much like the internet is now.

Now I realize that my experience in this regard is unique, and that many others might react to a whiteboard like flotsam (who is in education and might have a special disdain for whiteboards!). But I really like it.

By the way, I ALSO really like the idea of writing things in the sand, and I would be HAPPY to take a whole series of slogan photographs this next summer at the beach when my family goes to Oregon. I'm getting pretty good with my camera ;) We also have some sand dunes nearby, and I could go and do some Zen Garden photos also, it's just that writing in dry sand might not be as visible as writing in wet, beach sand...

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff,

I really like what you've done, and I really like the white-board and marker idea IF it gets used a LOT. If it's only once, on one billboard, then it might not really make sense. But if it gets used many, many times, then it starts to feel like a theme that makes sense.

Yes, I fully agree with you P_M. It has to be used a lot and for a long time. What I want for us is some kind of icon that people identify with PostMormon.org for years to come. Whether it is the markers, the writing in the sand, (which intrigues me, let's talk more P_M! Thanks for the idea flotsom!), or something else. It just needs to be, as you said P_M, consistent. It also needs to be simple (not simplistic, but in terms of having few components to it) and should be unique. Sometimes it takes a long time to find just the right icon. I mentioned in another post that it took almost three years to come up with our new product look. But it’s paying off many-fold already for us and the product was introduced to the public only three weeks ago. Finding just the right icon can pay off many-fold for us too.

I seriously think that we have an opportunity to make a permanent positive change in Mormon culture if we take the time to do it right. Treating former Mormons as second class citizens has to end in Mormon families and Mormon communities and I think we can help to end it. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I think we can do something to make a lasting difference, if only a small one.

This weekend I jumped into website redesigns kind of on the fly because in the last two weeks I was contacted by four people who want to start a group that is part of the PostMorm.org support group network. Those groups will be in England, France, South Carolina, and this morning one from San Diego wants to get going. I badly need to upgrade the support groups pages and would like to get a new look established before I take the time to make the changes. I feel like I lost a lot of momentum with the medical issues this summer and I’m trying to run to catch up again. But this morning I decided that it's best to take the time to do things right, so I'll do an interim upgrade to the support groups pages for now, then I'll work with our staff on developing our new look, taking into account all the great ideas and suggestions you give us.

Thanks again for all the feedback everyone!

Jeff

[peter_mary]

You know, thinking along the lines of flotsam, maybe the gimmick is not just whiteboards, but "handwritten" images of all kinds.

The idea there is that you always show the writing tool, much as you have the Sharpie pen, but it changes all the time. So one time you have Crayon and lined paper, the next time a little rake in a zen garden, or a stick with beach sand, or a quill pen on parchment, or a paint brush on canvas, or a spray paint can on a boxcar side, or chalk on a sidewalk, or whatever. That way, the IDEA is consistent, but the particulars are always new.

Just a thought...

Peter_Mary

[hamar]

Yes, I fully agree with you P_M. It has to be used a lot and for a long time. What I want for us is some kind of icon that people identify with PostMormon.org for years to come. Whether it is the markers, the writing in the sand, (which intrigues me, let's talk more P_M! Thanks for the idea flotsom!), or something else. It just needs to be, as you said P_M, consistent. It also needs to be simple (not simplistic, but in terms of having few components to it) and should be unique. Sometimes it takes a long time to find just the right icon. I mentioned in another post that it took almost three years to come up with our new product look. But it’s paying off many-fold already for us and the product was introduced to the public only three weeks ago. Finding just the right icon can pay off many-fold for us too.

I seriously think that we have an opportunity to make a permanent positive change in Mormon culture if we take the time to do it right. Treating former Mormons as second class citizens has to end in Mormon families and Mormon communities and I think we can help to end it. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I think we can do something to make a lasting difference, if only a small one.

This weekend I jumped into website redesigns kind of on the fly because in the last two weeks I was contacted by four people who want to start a group that is part of the PostMorm.org support group network. Those groups will be in England, France, South Carolina, and this morning one from San Diego wants to get going. I badly need to upgrade the support groups pages and would like to get a new look established before I take the time to make the changes. I feel like I lost a lot of momentum with the medical issues this summer and I’m trying to run to catch up again. But this morning I decided that it's best to take the time to do things right, so I'll do an interim upgrade to the support groups pages for now, then I'll work with our staff on developing our new look, taking into account all the great ideas and suggestions you give us.

Thanks again for all the feedback everyone!

Jeff

Tell me more about the support group in SC. If they aren't all the way down by Charleston I might be able to get involved there once in awhile. I live about 3 hours drive from Columbia or Greenville.

I really like what PM said about the changing format with a consistent message.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Tell me more about the support group in SC. If they aren't all the way down by Charleston I might be able to get involved there once in awhile. I live about 3 hours drive from Columbia or Greenville.

I really like what PM said about the changing format with a consistent message.
Oops! :duh I meant North Carolina. Sorry Hamar. It's Raleigh NC.

Jeff

[Jeff_Ricks]

You know, thinking along the lines of flotsam, maybe the gimmick is not just whiteboards, but "handwritten" images of all kinds.

The idea there is that you always show the writing tool, much as you have the Sharpie pen, but it changes all the time. So one time you have Crayon and lined paper, the next time a little rake in a zen garden, or a stick with beach sand, or a quill pen on parchment, or a paint brush on canvas, or a spray paint can on a boxcar side, or chalk on a sidewalk, or whatever. That way, the IDEA is consistent, but the particulars are always new.

Just a thought...

Peter_Mary
Hmmm.... I like it!! :D

Jeff

[why me]

Why me, thanks for your feedback. In another post I explained that the billboard designs with slogans probably will never be seen on an actual billboard. Only the one with the smiley face has any realistic possibility of making it on a billboard. As I said, the sign companies probably would refuse to put up the others. Two summers ago I had a hard time getting Reagan Advertising to agree to put up even a billboard that had nothing more than our web address and a photo similar to the family photo. I had to get the Utah ACLU involved, then I finally got a meeting with the President of the company (Dewey Reagan) and he finally reluctantly agreed. Since then I’ve been trying to put in place the things necessary to make putting up billboards worth the the money and effort, and by that I mean this website. I see little point in getting billboards up without a good website to send people to with the billboards. As I said elsewhere I included the billboards with the slogans mostly to show the flexibility of the marker concept. I should have made that more clear when I started this thread.

Regarding the homepage statement: You have brought up the homepage statement several times and each time I’ve responded you ignored my response. Maybe this time you’ll respond to what I say ??? Please. Pretty please, so we can put this issue to rest. Please don’t ignore me this time, why me.

Here I go… again. You point out that the homepage statement says,

“We are not anti-Mormon; it is not our intent to belittle others. In fact, we want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism…”

But you always leave out the rest of the statement. It continues with a big “BUT” statement that you ignore. It says,

“BUT will be open about its misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families and communities. We regret the fact that our openness in this regard hurts some people, but feel that important information has been suppressed for so long within the Mormon community that we should let the chips fall where they may.”

Will you please comment on the second part of the statement this time? You’re right that the Joseph’s myth slogan is belittling but it’s belittling to the religion not to any particular individual. We don’t want PostMormon.org to be known as belittling people but we will be open about the problems we find with Mormonism, recognizing that some people will be hurt by the things we point out. I will say that if telling the truth about Mormonism hurts some people then its really not us that is hurting them, it’s Mormonism doing the hurting. You know the statement, “Sometimes the truth hurts.”

I’m taking bets that why me won’t respond. Sorry why me but this issue is getting very old to me. I’m tired of you bringing it up then ignoring my responses. I’m trying to be nice about this but it’s getting real hard.

Jeff
I will be getting back to you Jeff. No time right now! Take care!

[Jeff_Ricks]

I will be getting back to you Jeff. No time right now! Take care!
Don't be offended if I don't hold my breath why me. You still owe me responses for other things you promised to get back with me on. One of them in particular you said you were too busy to respond yet you had plenty of time on the very same day to post long posts about other subjects. Never heard back from you. I hope you prove me wrong this time.

Jeff

[Jeff_Ricks]

Don't be offended if I don't hold my breath why me. You still owe me responses for other things you promised to get back with me on. One of them in particular you said you were too busy to respond yet you had plenty of time on the very same day to post long posts about other subjects. Never heard back from you. I hope you prove me wrong this time.

Jeff
True to form why me, you said you didn't have time to respond to me yet you had time to post in other threads today. And in one of the posts you said that I'll be the one cleaning the toilets. I think you now owe me an apology in addition to the response you still owe me.

Jeff

[why me]

True to form why me, you said you didn't have time to respond to me yet you had time to post in other threads today. And in one of the posts you said that I'll be the one cleaning the toilets. I think you now owe me an apology in addition to the response you still owe me.

Jeff
Poor jeff is being judgemental which I think is a natural trait of poor jeff. Maybe jeff...just maybe...I thought that your post took more consideration then I was prepared to give at the time. I think that I have explained my attitude about belittling in the past and if you remember I did find your PM's just alittle offensive with their judgementalisms. And I told you so. You have tended to read anything that I may write with a skeptics eye mainly because you think of me as a tbm who is imposing himself on these threads. At least this has been my experience when reading your PM's. And so, please relax and see me just alittle different than your preconceived.
notions of who and what I am.

The toilet comment was a joke jeff...nothing more. Sorry you took it the wrong way and I do apologize.

Now how about an apology on your part? For example for the rude PM's you sent including the last one where you accused me of not responding to silverfox and threatening me with expulsion from the boards because of it? And of course I did reply to that PM you sent and informed you that I have responded to silverfox with a four part PM. Again no apology from you. In your PM's I have received threats of expulsion like some overbearing stake president.

I have found you to be a judgemental guy jeff...at least that is what I see in your PM's to me. And you are not one to apologize, even when an apology was necessary. Eventually I did tell you jeff that I didn't want you to PM me anymore because I saw no point in messaging someone who just sits in judgement and utters rude sentences to read. In truth jeff you said some pretty hurtful things including a play on my name why_me.

What you need to do jeff is to take a look at yourself and ask why you have such a reaction to my posts. I think that I did respond to you by telling you that I would get back to you on your comments.

[why me]

Why me, thanks for your feedback. In another post I explained that the billboard designs with slogans probably will never be seen on an actual billboard. Only the one with the smiley face has any realistic possibility of making it on a billboard. As I said, the sign companies probably would refuse to put up the others. Two summers ago I had a hard time getting Reagan Advertising to agree to put up even a billboard that had nothing more than our web address and a photo similar to the family photo. I had to get the Utah ACLU involved, then I finally got a meeting with the President of the company (Dewey Reagan) and he finally reluctantly agreed. Since then I’ve been trying to put in place the things necessary to make putting up billboards worth the the money and effort, and by that I mean this website. I see little point in getting billboards up without a good website to send people to with the billboards. As I said elsewhere I included the billboards with the slogans mostly to show the flexibility of the marker concept. I should have made that more clear when I started this thread.

Regarding the homepage statement: You have brought up the homepage statement several times and each time I’ve responded you ignored my response. Maybe this time you’ll respond to what I say ??? Please. Pretty please, so we can put this issue to rest. Please don’t ignore me this time, why me.

Here I go… again. You point out that the homepage statement says,

“We are not anti-Mormon; it is not our intent to belittle others. In fact, we want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism…”

But you always leave out the rest of the statement. It continues with a big “BUT” statement that you ignore. It says,

“BUT will be open about its misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families and communities. We regret the fact that our openness in this regard hurts some people, but feel that important information has been suppressed for so long within the Mormon community that we should let the chips fall where they may.”

Will you please comment on the second part of the statement this time? You’re right that the Joseph’s myth slogan is belittling but it’s belittling to the religion not to any particular individual. We don’t want PostMormon.org to be known as belittling people but we will be open about the problems we find with Mormonism, recognizing that some people will be hurt by the things we point out. I will say that if telling the truth about Mormonism hurts some people then its really not us that is hurting them, it’s Mormonism doing the hurting. You know the statement, “Sometimes the truth hurts.”

I’m taking bets that why me won’t respond. Sorry why me but this issue is getting very old to me. I’m tired of you bringing it up then ignoring my responses. I’m trying to be nice about this but it’s getting real hard.

Jeff
I think jeff that there is a fine line between belittling and being open with the problems found in mormonism. I think that it has to do with the tone of the posts and how the information is presented. As flotsom mentioned 90 percent of the posts have been a rant against the church and when people rant and when people are ranting and raving and ridiculing the institution, the belittling can come into the picture because of the tone and content of the posts.

How can one mock a church without belittling the believers? I think that it cannot be done. And so, I think that the belittling part of the sentence was just fluff to make the postmo organization seem balanced ín its estimation of the church when actually there is genuine hatred toward the church expressed in the boards on numerous of occasions.

And jeff...lets be honest...you do hate the church right? I know that hate is a strong word but I think that you do have hatred for the institution.

I suppose that with that sentence I tried to honor the first part where many have honored the last part. Unfortunately, when the first part is honored one can be judged by you to be something that they are not.

As far as the rest of the homepage is concerned I explained to silverfox what it meant to me to read it for the first time and she has the PM if she still has it in her folder. I thought that the boards would be a place of discovery and new insights. I never thought that such bitterness would be so constant as it had been in the past. There is a RFM site for the truly bitter people but I thought that the boards of postmo were sort of beyond the bitterness and anger and discovering the butterfly's metamorphisis.

I hope that this answers your concerns.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I think jeff that there is a fine line between belittling and being open with the problems found in mormonism. I think that it has to do with the tone of the posts and how the information is presented. As flotsom mentioned 90 percent of the posts have been a rant against the church and when people rant and when people are ranting and raving and ridiculing the institution, the belittling can come into the picture because of the tone and content of the posts.

How can one mock a church without belittling the believers? I think that it cannot be done. And so, I think that the belittling part of the sentence was just fluff to make the postmo organization seem balanced ín its estimation of the church when actually there is genuine hatred toward the church expressed in the boards on numerous of occasions.

And jeff...lets be honest...you do hate the church right? I know that hate is a strong word but I think that you do have hatred for the institution.

I suppose that with that sentence I tried to honor the first part where many have honored the last part. Unfortunately, when the first part is honored one can be judged by you to be something that they are not.

As far as the rest of the homepage is concerned I explained to silverfox what it meant to me to read it for the first time and she has the PM if she still has it in her folder. I thought that the boards would be a place of discovery and new insights. I never thought that such bitterness would be so constant as it had been in the past. There is a RFM site for the truly bitter people but I thought that the boards of postmo were sort of beyond the bitterness and anger and discovering the butterfly's metamorphisis.

I hope that this answers your concerns.

Thank you for the response. This is a rare occasion; one of the few times you have responded to my posts that have challenged your comments. Why did I have to beg you and shame you into responding? Because there are many similar cases where I never heard back from you. I think this is the fourth time you’ve brought up this subject and complained about the hompage. I responded by explaining that you’ve taken the statement out of context and showed just as I have in this thread that you have taken the homepage out of context, but each time you ignored me. You're one of the most evasive person's I've corresponded with. Several others in the forum have complained of the same behavior from you – it’s not just me.

Regarding your rare response to me on this subject: As I have explained before, if you would take the homepage statement in its entirety I don't think that you or anyone else can claim that it misrepresents who we are and the kinds of things that we talk about in this forum or on the site in general. I think the statement spells out very clearly that we "will be open about its misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families and communities. We regret the fact that our openness in this regard hurts some people, but feel that important information has been suppressed for so long within the Mormon community that we should let the chips fall where they may."

Here’s another way to paraphrase the statement: We don’t intend to hurt anyone but recognize that some people will be hurt by our openness relative to problems we find in Mormonism.

Yes, why me, I do hate Mormonism in the same sense that I hate a corporation that lies to it's stockholders and lies to the public. I’ve never tried to hide the fact that I hate Mormonism. Anyone who’s been victimized by such an organization, whether a religious or business organization, and keeps quiet about it is in my opinion shirking a responsibility they have to the unaware public who is victimized by it. Yes, I hate Mormonism and I hate corporations like Enron. I make no apologies for my hatred for such institutions. Many people have been hurt and taken advantage of them. I hate Mormonism but I don't hate Mormons. There is a difference. Half of my family is still Mormon. My father died a true blue Mormon. I love my Mormon family, I don't hate them, but I hate the "ism" that lies to, victimizes them and unbeknownst to them steals a part of their precious life. I make no apologies whatsoever about my hatred for MormonISM. And I feel for any Mormons who are victimized Mormonism. I also feel for any who are hurt by any statements that are made that point out its problems, but I will still point out its problems. I couldn’t live with myself I said nothing, knowing that hundreds of thousands of people continue to be oppressed and victimized by it. Yes, I recongnize that there is good in Mormonism, but the good that's found there can be found elsewhere too. One doesn't have to suffer the victimization to enjoy such good.

Jeff

[why me]

Thank you for the response. This is a rare occasion; one of the few times you have responded to my posts that have challenged your comments. Why did I have to beg you and shame you into responding? Because there are many similar cases where I never heard back from you. I think this is the fourth time you’ve brought up this subject and complained about the hompage. I responded by explaining that you’ve taken the statement out of context and showed just as I have in this thread that you have taken the homepage out of context, but each time you ignored me. You're one of the most evasive person's I've corresponded with. Several others in the forum have complained of the same behavior from you – it’s not just me.

Regarding your rare response to me on this subject: As I have explained before, if you would take the homepage statement in its entirety I don't think that you or anyone else can claim that it misrepresents who we are and the kinds of things that we talk about in this forum or on the site in general. I think the statement spells out very clearly that we "will be open about its misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families and communities. We regret the fact that our openness in this regard hurts some people, but feel that important information has been suppressed for so long within the Mormon community that we should let the chips fall where they may."

Here’s another way to paraphrase the statement: We don’t intend to hurt anyone but recognize that some people will be hurt by our openness relative to problems we find in Mormonism.

Yes, why me, I do hate Mormonism in the same sense that I hate a corporation that lies to it's stockholders and lies to the public. I’ve never tried to hide the fact that I hate Mormonism. Anyone who’s been victimized by such an organization, whether a religious or business organization, and keeps quiet about it is in my opinion shirking a responsibility they have to the unaware public who is victimized by it. Yes, I hate Mormonism and I hate corporations like Enron. I make no apologies for my hatred for such institutions. Many people have been hurt and taken advantage of them. I hate Mormonism but I don't hate Mormons. There is a difference. Half of my family is still Mormon. My father died a true blue Mormon. I love my Mormon family, I don't hate them, but I hate the "ism" that lies to, victimizes them and unbeknownst to them steals a part of their precious life. I make no apologies whatsoever about my hatred for MormonISM. And I feel for any Mormons who are victimized Mormonism. I also feel for any who are hurt by any statements that are made that point out its problems, but I will still point out its problems. I couldn’t live with myself I said nothing, knowing that hundreds of thousands of people continue to be oppressed and victimized by it. Yes, I recongnize that there is good in Mormonism, but the good that's found there can be found elsewhere too. One doesn't have to suffer the victimization to enjoy such good.

Jeff
Of course jeff you need to understand that when you say that you hate the 'ism' that lies to, victimizes them and unbeknownst to them steals apart of their precious life' you sit in judgement and are basically practicing your own self-evident truths. And maybe this is the problem. I am sure that they feel the same about you and your beliefs. And that is sad in my opinion.

I think that you need to overcome your judgementalism for all those who may not see your side of the picture. Because in the end,it is only your opinion.

But I would go even further. You just don't hate the church but you also hate the whole notion that there is a god. You hate the whole idea of a christian god and this would explain your atheism. Maybe you have too much hatred for the unknown when it comes to the christian religion based on your own experiences.

But I cannot say that hatred is the way to go. I think that hatred can cloud perspectives and leave the mind a little warped in the long run. I certainly don't want to hate in such a way that it clouds my understanding or judgement.

But that being said I do hate capitalism but capitalism is such an elusive economic system that I can hate it without getting personal...it is sort of a non-entity for most people---they just live it without realizing it. But I also need to work on my hatred and see it more as a dislike.

I wish you well jeff...I take your own silence on what I said about your PMs as a complaince with what I said. Sad that you could not apologize for your tone and words. Take care!

[Jeff_Ricks]

Of course jeff you need to understand that when you say that you hate the 'ism' that lies to, victimizes them and unbeknownst to them steals apart of their precious life' you sit in judgement and are basically practicing your own self-evident truths. And maybe this is the problem. I am sure that they feel the same about you and your beliefs. And that is sad in my opinion.

I think that you need to overcome your judgementalism for all those who may not see your side of the picture. Because in the end,it is only your opinion.

But I would go even further. You just don't hate the church but you also hate the whole notion that there is a god. You hate the whole idea of a christian god and this would explain your atheism. Maybe you have too much hatred for the unknown when it comes to the christian religion based on your own experiences.

But I cannot say that hatred is the way to go. I think that hatred can cloud perspectives and leave the mind a little warped in the long run. I certainly don't want to hate in such a way that it clouds my understanding or judgement.

But that being said I do hate capitalism but capitalism is such an elusive economic system that I can hate it without getting personal...it is sort of a non-entity for most people---they just live it without realizing it. But I also need to work on my hatred and see it more as a dislike.

I wish you well jeff...I take your own silence on what I said about your PMs as a complaince with what I said. Sad that you could not apologize for your tone and words. Take care!
I acknowledge your response but don't agree with much of what you said. No I don't comply with what you said in another post.

Jeff

[silverfox]

Take it offline, please. :)

[Jeff_Ricks]

Take it offline, please. :)
Sorry silverfox. :o

[hamar]

Oops! :duh I meant North Carolina. Sorry Hamar. It's Raleigh NC.

Jeff

OK, North Carolina is where I am; about 3.5 hours from Raliegh. I'm interested in learning more.

[ben]

I love the picture of the family and the smiley face. When my husband left the church I was really scared and thought our family was doomed with out the church. I also had the idea in my head that ex-mormons were off the wall. When I came to this site the family photo made a huge impact on me and comforted me quite a bit. That’s my experience.

I like the idea of maybe in addition to the family photo, having similar non-family photos of different types of people to rotate with. I really like the idea of a picture.

The Exit here and save %10 are hilarious and if you could get them up I think they would catch people’s attention and curiosity.

Alicia

I can't seem to log in under my own name.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I love the picture of the family and the smiley face. When my husband left the church I was really scared and thought our family was doomed with out the church. I also had the idea in my head that ex-mormons were off the wall. When I came to this site the family photo made a huge impact on me and comforted me quite a bit. That’s my experience.

I like the idea of maybe in addition to the family photo, having similar non-family photos of different types of people to rotate with. I really like the idea of a picture.

The Exit here and save %10 are hilarious and if you could get them up I think they would catch people’s attention and curiosity.

Alicia

I can't seem to log in under my own name.
Thanks for the feedback Alicia. It's helpful.

How did you log in as ben? Did he give you his password? I can't find "alicia" in our database. Is there another name you registered under, and do I need to fix your account so you can use it instead of bens? Let me know, your wish is my command. :)

Jeff'

[silverfox]

I love the picture of the family and the smiley face. When my husband left the church I was really scared and thought our family was doomed with out the church. I also had the idea in my head that ex-mormons were off the wall. When I came to this site the family photo made a huge impact on me and comforted me quite a bit. That’s my experience.

I like the idea of maybe in addition to the family photo, having similar non-family photos of different types of people to rotate with. I really like the idea of a picture.

The Exit here and save %10 are hilarious and if you could get them up I think they would catch people’s attention and curiosity.

Alicia

I can't seem to log in under my own name.

People have made good points about the family photo. I remember it made the site more inviting to me as well. As a convert with estranged family the most attractive thing about the church to me was the emphasis they seemed to have on family unity. So the family pic drew me in here, as well. It made me feel like families are important here. And they are.

[hamar]

People have made good points about the family photo. I remember it made the site more inviting to me as well. As a convert with estranged family the most attractive thing about the church to me was the emphasis they seemed to have on family unity. So the family pic drew me in here, as well. It made me feel like families are important here. And they are.

I agree, the family reminded and reinforced, for me, that family values are important here. Something I didn't want to shrug off as I shed the tennacles of that corporation.