And now for something a little more positive...

[lunaverse]

I actually left the Church almost 5 years ago. I didn't begin really taking a look Mormon issues until this summer. Unlike many others, who left after finding "anti-Mormon" materials, I simply left over philosophical issues. I didn't believe man could understand God or his purposes -- that God (if he/she/it/them exists) is much bigger than the human mind can conceive. I didn't research Mormon history or any of that ex-Mormony stuff until recently.

During those 5 years, I built my career, moved to the big city, gained a lot of wonderful friends and great experiences, and fulfilled a lot of long-term dreams.

I'm still on a quest to find my authentic self, but I have tapped into that wellspring more times than I can count. I know I've hit it when I feel emense contentment or joy. There's a feeling of "rightness" in those times. Many things in my life reflect who I really am, what I really like -- what I wear, how I have decorated my house, the titles on the piles of books all over the place, and what I choose to do Friday nights. :) My goal is to reach authenticity in all areas of my life. To me this is the true meaning of integrity and is an important aspect on honesty, which I hold very dear.

I've removed people from my life who encourage me to live life by their rules -- for instance, those who told me moving to the city was a bad idea, that I would hate it. They don't know what I will hate, they only know what they would hate. They were wrong, and their discouraging voices are no longer within hearing range. I surround myself with encouraging people who respect my choices and values, as I respect theirs -- even when we vastly differ in opinion. And when someone is disrespectful, I have learned to stand up for myself. In most cases, they are appreciative of the feedback, rather than defensive.

I enjoy movies. I watch all kinds, from all over the world. Free from the strictures of avoiding certain ratings and content, I have found enlightenment and exposure to all kinds of ideas and ways of life. I am confident in my abilities to intelligently discern the content of what I see, and am not afraid I am "desensitizing" myself or making my mind unclean. I have not brought filth into my home, I have brought art, honesty, raw views, candid portrayals -- reflections of life through the mental lense of the filmmakers. These views are edifying as well as entertaining.

I enjoy music. Sometimes it's headbanging to the loudest goth or punk bad. Sometimes it's trancing out to techno. Sometimes it's singing along to one of my favorite musicals. Sometimes I go back to my classical roots, and even pull out the piano books. I enjoy rare weird music that no one has ever heard of, and the strange culture of Seattle radio stations help me with that a great deal.

I have more time for reading, and I give myself permission to do so. In the last five years, I've read more books than I can remember. They all have underlines and stars next to the parts I found most interesting. Some books are nearly completely underlined. I've discovered there seems to be no end to the amount I can learn, and my brain never seems to "get full".

I still love video games, though they play a much smaller role in my life now. Now they are a permissable pleasure, rather than one to feel guilty about as a "waste of time". Ironically, because I allow myself to play them without guilt, I play them less often -- because I'm allowing myself to do my other "waste of time" activities without guilt too!

My friends are wonderful. I don't force myself to be around people who can't relate to me. I have chosen people with similar interests, geeks all of them. We talk about the whole range from frivilous fiction to deep intellectual philosophizing over politics and science. We have a very strong culture of individuality, a rebellion against the conformity we experienced as school children, where we couldn't make ourselves liked no matter how hard we tried. Now we don't even try -- we do our own thing, and choose aquaintances who love us all the more for it. You should see the parties we have. :D I am closer to some of my friends than I have ever been to any member of my family, because of a relation of ideas and experiences rather than a relation of blood.

I have spent more time on my art. I've made a lot of very strange critters out of clay, and I have my work in a gallery. I've also spent some money in appreciation of the art of others, and even have a 3'x5' original abstract piece by a local artist that cost me an arm and a leg. :) It takes up most of my computer room and it reminds me of my son.

My son and I get along much better now. I no longer feel a constant barage of guilt for all the things I'm not doing right. I don't feel guilty that I'm raising him in a single-parent house. When he whines at me and begs, I can easily deflect the attempts at manipulation, because I have learned to stand up for myself. His behavior has improved for it, as he realizes he has to take responsibility. We enjoy life together now, and I 'm very proud that he's started to love to read, and we like to watch the same kinds of movies and play the same kinds of games.

My anxiety attacks are ancient history, with the exception of rare extreme stress. I no longer have an eating disorder. My depression is long gone. I don't have to sleep with the lights on anymore. :) Fear is no longer a daily part of life. I'm hardly ever sick. I have more social skills. I'm living consciously.

Luna

[hamar]

Have you read Soccrates Cafe by Christopher Phillips?

[lunaverse]

Have you read Soccrates Cafe by Christopher Phillips?

Nope! What's it about?

Luna

[hamar]

Nope! What's it about?

Luna

Here are a few comments from the jacket of the book. I am enjoying it very much and thought, from your post, that you might find it interesting as well.

"Is the unexamined life worth living? Posing the question can lead to thoughtful discussions of what we value and, ultimately, of who we are. Such topics, raised by Christopher Phillips and other participants in meetings of Scorates Cafe, cultivate a self-aware climate of ongoing inquiry and reflection. A commitment to life-long learning may not answer all our questions, but it does make us more fully alive." Quote from Science of Mind.

"I am excited about Christopher Phillips's effort to bring philosophy out of the ivory tower and back into the lives of ordinary people, where it belongs." Quote from Rabbi Harold S. Kushner, author of: When Bad Things Happen to Good People.

Harry

[peter_mary]

I appreciated your reminder to Why_Me and all of us that our lives on PostMo are in all likelihood not representative of our lives on the whole. To the contrary, I would guess.

I hang out here because I feel a sense of obligation to people who are struggling to leave, to find a comfortable place to come and talk things out. If there isn't anyone here to talk to, or with, then what's the point in staying? It's a self-imposed sense of duty, however, and one not born of anger but rather compassion for those who are struggling now. To rephrase an old thought, "As they are, I once was; as I am now, they may become." Not in a self agrandizing manner, but in a healed manner.

For me, the vast majority of my time is devoted to two passions: my relationships with my wife and children and dearest friends, and my photography.

I have spoken at length on other threads about the importance of friends and family to me, and the central role they play in my life since leaving the Church, so I won't belabor that one further.

My photography, on the other hand, is a passion that has simmered beneath the surface for twenty years, and I am just now beginning to find the time (and money) to pursue it with any degree of real earnestness. This is what really colors my life right now:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce10b3127cce94bb9737966b00000016108AbuHDJs2at4

My world is as rose-colored as the photo above, and I am a happier person for it. Thanks, Luna, for reminding us all that how we each experience one another here on PostMo is just a single slice of our world, not the world in its entirety!

[Yes, the photo is mine, and my apologies to Hamar who has already seen it...]

[hamar]

No apologies needed to me; seeing it again here was as refreshing and soothing as when you first shared it with me.

And it's folks like you and FT, silverox, Jeff and others who have helped me a great deal in getting over the anger that I felt when I realized that I'd been had by tscc. My anger is disapating rather quickly; however, I do enjoying coming here to share my exit experiences and feelings with others as well.

And no, tscc doesn't consume much of my life away from this venue either. I live in the mountains of NC and the church isn't much of an influence here. When we share with others that we have left tscc we are embraced and welcomed as if we have returned home after a long separation.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I actually left the Church almost 5 years ago. I didn't begin really taking a look Mormon issues until this summer. Unlike many others, who left after finding "anti-Mormon" materials, I simply left over philosophical issues. I didn't believe man could understand God or his purposes -- that God (if he/she/it/them exists) is much bigger than the human mind can conceive. I didn't research Mormon history or any of that ex-Mormony stuff until recently.

During those 5 years, I built my career, moved to the big city, gained a lot of wonderful friends and great experiences, and fulfilled a lot of long-term dreams.

I'm still on a quest to find my authentic self, but I have tapped into that wellspring more times than I can count. I know I've hit it when I feel emense contentment or joy. There's a feeling of "rightness" in those times. Many things in my life reflect who I really am, what I really like -- what I wear, how I have decorated my house, the titles on the piles of books all over the place, and what I choose to do Friday nights. :) My goal is to reach authenticity in all areas of my life. To me this is the true meaning of integrity and is an important aspect on honesty, which I hold very dear.

I've removed people from my life who encourage me to live life by their rules -- for instance, those who told me moving to the city was a bad idea, that I would hate it. They don't know what I will hate, they only know what they would hate. They were wrong, and their discouraging voices are no longer within hearing range. I surround myself with encouraging people who respect my choices and values, as I respect theirs -- even when we vastly differ in opinion. And when someone is disrespectful, I have learned to stand up for myself. In most cases, they are appreciative of the feedback, rather than defensive.

I enjoy movies. I watch all kinds, from all over the world. Free from the strictures of avoiding certain ratings and content, I have found enlightenment and exposure to all kinds of ideas and ways of life. I am confident in my abilities to intelligently discern the content of what I see, and am not afraid I am "desensitizing" myself or making my mind unclean. I have not brought filth into my home, I have brought art, honesty, raw views, candid portrayals -- reflections of life through the mental lense of the filmmakers. These views are edifying as well as entertaining.

I enjoy music. Sometimes it's headbanging to the loudest goth or punk bad. Sometimes it's trancing out to techno. Sometimes it's singing along to one of my favorite musicals. Sometimes I go back to my classical roots, and even pull out the piano books. I enjoy rare weird music that no one has ever heard of, and the strange culture of Seattle radio stations help me with that a great deal.

I have more time for reading, and I give myself permission to do so. In the last five years, I've read more books than I can remember. They all have underlines and stars next to the parts I found most interesting. Some books are nearly completely underlined. I've discovered there seems to be no end to the amount I can learn, and my brain never seems to "get full".

I still love video games, though they play a much smaller role in my life now. Now they are a permissable pleasure, rather than one to feel guilty about as a "waste of time". Ironically, because I allow myself to play them without guilt, I play them less often -- because I'm allowing myself to do my other "waste of time" activities without guilt too!

My friends are wonderful. I don't force myself to be around people who can't relate to me. I have chosen people with similar interests, geeks all of them. We talk about the whole range from frivilous fiction to deep intellectual philosophizing over politics and science. We have a very strong culture of individuality, a rebellion against the conformity we experienced as school children, where we couldn't make ourselves liked no matter how hard we tried. Now we don't even try -- we do our own thing, and choose aquaintances who love us all the more for it. You should see the parties we have. :D I am closer to some of my friends than I have ever been to any member of my family, because of a relation of ideas and experiences rather than a relation of blood.

I have spent more time on my art. I've made a lot of very strange critters out of clay, and I have my work in a gallery. I've also spent some money in appreciation of the art of others, and even have a 3'x5' original abstract piece by a local artist that cost me an arm and a leg. :) It takes up most of my computer room and it reminds me of my son.

My son and I get along much better now. I no longer feel a constant barage of guilt for all the things I'm not doing right. I don't feel guilty that I'm raising him in a single-parent house. When he whines at me and begs, I can easily deflect the attempts at manipulation, because I have learned to stand up for myself. His behavior has improved for it, as he realizes he has to take responsibility. We enjoy life together now, and I 'm very proud that he's started to love to read, and we like to watch the same kinds of movies and play the same kinds of games.

My anxiety attacks are ancient history, with the exception of rare extreme stress. I no longer have an eating disorder. My depression is long gone. I don't have to sleep with the lights on anymore. :) Fear is no longer a daily part of life. I'm hardly ever sick. I have more social skills. I'm living consciously.

Luna
I enjoyed very much reading your post Luna. You seem like an interesting person. I like individuals. I feel a kind of connection to the "different" people I come across in my life. Conformity is boring to me. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the fact that my three children are the types that do their own thinking. They have their own minds and make their own way. It make me proud to be their dad. When I see an 'individual' who is about kids age (they range from 17 to 27) I want to give them a thumbs up, shake their hand or give them a hug and tell them that I think the world needs more people who think like them. That kind of thinking never would have crossed my mind when I was a TBM. Back then I would have felt sorry for them.

Thanks for the post Luna.
Jeff

[Jeff_Ricks]

I appreciated your reminder to Why_Me and all of us that our lives on PostMo are in all likelihood not representative of our lives on the whole. To the contrary, I would guess.

I hang out here because I feel a sense of obligation to people who are struggling to leave, to find a comfortable place to come and talk things out. If there isn't anyone here to talk to, or with, then what's the point in staying? It's a self-imposed sense of duty, however, and one not born of anger but rather compassion for those who are struggling now. To rephrase an old thought, "As they are, I once was; as I am now, they may become." Not in a self agrandizing manner, but in a healed manner.

For me, the vast majority of my time is devoted to two passions: my relationships with my wife and children and dearest friends, and my photography.

I have spoken at length on other threads about the importance of friends and family to me, and the central role they play in my life since leaving the Church, so I won't belabor that one further.

My photography, on the other hand, is a passion that has simmered beneath the surface for twenty years, and I am just now beginning to find the time (and money) to pursue it with any degree of real earnestness. This is what really colors my life right now:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce10b3127cce94bb9737966b00000016108AbuHDJs2at4

My world is as rose-colored as the photo above, and I am a happier person for it. Thanks, Luna, for reminding us all that how we each experience one another here on PostMo is just a single slice of our world, not the world in its entirety!

[Yes, the photo is mine, and my apologies to Hamar who has already seen it...]
Nice photo P_M! I'd like to see more!

Jeff

[free thinker]

Heaven is not for me. See. I like it here.

When I wake I love to see the sun shine through my window. I love to watch it set. The colors are magnificent.

I dont want to go to heaven. Unless they have Starbucks. Make it a grande.

I dont want to go to heaven.

Unless they have the occasional lady walk by in tight jeans. I like that.

I dont want to go to heaven. Barnes and Noble is better. Maybe when I finish reading all the books.

I dont want to go to heaven. Not unless I can kiss the soft neck of a lover there.

I dont want to go to heaven. They wont have Cold Stone ice cream. I like sweet cream with M&M's crushed in.

I dont want to go to heaven. INXS wont be playing there.

I dont want to go to heaven. Just cuz. Cuz I like it here. I am a man of the world. Everything I love and hold dear is here.

Life is sweet. Heaven is here. Even in the trouble and tuff times. Heaven for me could not be better. Not for me. I have a home here in the world. :cool:

ft


PS Pm your photo is so beautiful.
Luna you are interesting.
Thanks Hamar
Jeff you are the best.

[david]

Thanks Luna, PM, and others on this thread. Luna I think you hit it when you describe your search for authenticity. There is hardly a day that goes by when I don't reflect on the difference between my life as a postmo (many years now) and as a mo. Speaking of events as having happened "in a previous life" may be a cliche these days, but it's quite real for me.
To be able to experience joy in all of life's diverse experience, untempered by guilt, is a gift. I am reminded constantly of this. Just today, while enjoying a quiet hour at my son's soccor practice, with clearing skies and a setting sun, listening to (non-church approved) music of my choice on the ipod, enjoying a (non-church approved) book of my choice, and watching my boy (also non-church approved, as his parents aren't married ;) ) in the distance...I felt a sense of peace: the peace that comes from the freedom to be yourself, to define who you are on your own terms.
Like free thinker suggests, who needs heaven when you have that?
Wishing all of you the best--David

[silverfox]

Luna, you rock, girl!

P_M - damn! BEAUTIFUL!

FT - yep, we create our own heaven.

[peter_mary]

Speaking of events as having happened "in a previous life" may be a cliche these days, but it's quite real for me.
It is real, isn't it? There are times when I talk to my kids about "back when we were Mormons," and it quite literally feels like a different lifetime. If ever I've been 'born again', that's how...I was birthed from the box of Mormonism.

To be able to experience joy in all of life's diverse experience, untempered by guilt, is a gift. I am reminded constantly of this.
Amen, brother...amen. It really is a gift to realize that the world is filled with "fruit, delicious to the taste" and not merely limited to one kind of fruit on one kind of tree. I, too, used to be consumed by guilt if I recognized the goodness of unauthorized, uncorrelated pleasures. I am alive again.

[Fredl]

This is a wonderful thread. Thank you all very much.

Fred

[hitchiker]

Nope! What's it about?

Lunathanx for sharing yourself , i learned a lot about you and myself ,enjoying all your posts

[miss taken]

Hi Luna,

I loved your post too. Thanks. My jump to authenticity happened as soon as I left active member ship in the church.

Well actually when I think about it, my jump to authenticity happened when I finally realised and faced that rather awesome possibility that the church might not be everything it set itself up as being.

After the calls of 'your in Satan's hands', and the accompanying fear that went with it (as well as feeling somewhat like I had the proverbial rug pulled from beneath me) I felt truly liberated. Not in the sense that I now wished to live my life anarchicly?, but because I finally felt free to question, without any preconcieved notion of what 'had' to be right.

I could not find authenticity in the LDS church. I doubt that I ever will because I just don't believe Joseph Smith. I am greatly interested at present in people who do truly find authenticity in the LDS church. They do exist, and I am interested in conversing with them. I am also deeply interested in why people like Grant Palmer, choose to remain active despite their rejection of many of the foundation tenets of mormonism.


One of my old deputies once commented on mormons ( a nevermo himself), and said how much he respected them (and me I guess) because (particularly in Europe where we are an extreme minority) he percieved them as deep thinkers who question life rather than take it for granted. Here, I think the LDS church is 'quirky' enough that it demands to be taken seriously. For me, that was it's strength, but also its weakness. For me, I cared deeply whether it was historically true or not. (my bias was in historical study)

Just my two penneth.

Mary

[free thinker]

member ship in the church.

Mary in your spelling of MEMBERSHIP, with a separation, I was struck by the analogy to leaving the ship. There is so much that could be said here, but I think you get what I mean.

ft