We Make a Difference

[peter_mary]

Sometimes I think it's easy to wonder if we make a difference in the big scheme of things. The Church seems to keep growing, they seem to build more buildings, they seem to grow more wealthy... Is there anything more to this "movement" out of the Church than just hovering around each other saying "there, there, it'll all be okay one day...you'll see."

I read something today that tells me that indeed, we ARE making a difference, and by "we" I speek of the countless, nameless growing band of ex-mormons and Post-Mormons who have not just left the Church, but are talking about it...openly.

I had a chance to peruse the January, 2005 Ensign, and read two things of note (my stomach lining couldn't take much more than the little I read, so there may be more in there, but I'll never know). First, Gordon Hinckley spends the whole first presidency message discussing the need to "pursue a steady course" in the face of criticism and objection. He speaks of the best defense being the quiet allegience to the Church leadership. Above all, the tenor of the message, though controlled, is a recognition and even admission that the Church is under attack, and he's trying to strengthen the resolve of the faithful to "stay loyal" during the seige. Only this time, I have to wonder if the Church is playing role of "Mormonees" or the "Fancher Party?" (Remember in the movie the Princess Bride when Wesley, Fesick and Inigo are attacking the front gates of the castle, and the Seargent is yelling, "Stand your ground, men, stand your ground!" and everyone is running away except him? Makes me wonder if we won't see that one day in Salt Lake City...)

The second thing I read, couched in a multi-page spread of artistic renderings of Joseph's First Vision, was the following quote:

Of his experience in the Sacred Grove, the Prophet Joseph wrote, "A pillar of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day came down from above and rested on me." Within the light, he said, "I saw the Lord and he spake unto me." The first words that Joseph heard from the Savior filled him with unspeakable joy--"Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven the."

Anybody notice anything about that? In case you've forgotten, the canonized version of the First Vision doesn't say that. Of course, those who are familiar with the multiple versions of the First Vision will recognize the quoted version as one of the early descriptions: Only ONE personage, apparently Jesus, and the only message is "your sins are forgiven."

So what's the big deal? The big deal is this. For years the Church has ignored the facts regarding the multiple first vision accounts, and has stuck doggedly to the divinely inspired words of their beloved Prophet, even though nearly all scholars realize that the final version was a carefully crafted piece of missionary propaganda that was written YEARS after the occurance, and which went through multiple evolutions before the final was arrived at.

But NOW, given the accessability of the lay-member to this kind of information, so abundantly available on the internet by people like you who want to talk about it, the Church has no choice but to begin the process of co-opting the story, putting their own spin on it, and providing the general Church members with a pat-answer and a warm fuzzy, so that their understanding of the multiple first visions might one day become as tender a piece of Church lore as the hokum surrounding the events of the lost 116 pages of the first BoM manuscript.

I don't get a chance to flip through an Ensign very often, but I thought it was interesting that when I did, I found the defense mechanisms of the Church being armed for battle...

You DO make a difference...

Paul

[Jeff_Ricks]

Sometimes I think it's easy to wonder if we make a difference in the big scheme of things. The Church seems to keep growing, they seem to build more buildings, they seem to grow more wealthy... Is there anything more to this "movement" out of the Church than just hovering around each other saying "there, there, it'll all be okay one day...you'll see."

I read something today that tells me that indeed, we ARE making a difference, and by "we" I speek of the countless, nameless growing band of ex-mormons and Post-Mormons who have not just left the Church, but are talking about it...openly.

I had a chance to peruse the January, 2005 Ensign, and read two things of note (my stomach lining couldn't take much more than the little I read, so there may be more in there, but I'll never know). First, Gordon Hinckley spends the whole first presidency message discussing the need to "pursue a steady course" in the face of criticism and objection. He speaks of the best defense being the quiet allegience to the Church leadership. Above all, the tenor of the message, though controlled, is a recognition and even admission that the Church is under attack, and he's trying to strengthen the resolve of the faithful to "stay loyal" during the seige. Only this time, I have to wonder if the Church is playing role of "Mormonees" or the "Fancher Party?" (Remember in the movie the Princess Bride when Wesley, Fesick and Inigo are attacking the front gates of the castle, and the Seargent is yelling, "Stand your ground, men, stand your ground!" and everyone is running away except him? Makes me wonder if we won't see that one day in Salt Lake City...)

The second thing I read, couched in a multi-page spread of artistic renderings of Joseph's First Vision, was the following quote:



Anybody notice anything about that? In case you've forgotten, the canonized version of the First Vision doesn't say that. Of course, those who are familiar with the multiple versions of the First Vision will recognize the quoted version as one of the early descriptions: Only ONE personage, apparently Jesus, and the only message is "your sins are forgiven."

So what's the big deal? The big deal is this. For years the Church has ignored the facts regarding the multiple first vision accounts, and has stuck doggedly to the divinely inspired words of their beloved Prophet, even though nearly all scholars realize that the final version was a carefully crafted piece of missionary propaganda that was written YEARS after the occurance, and which went through multiple evolutions before the final was arrived at.

But NOW, given the accessability of the lay-member to this kind of information, so abundantly available on the internet by people like you who want to talk about it, the Church has no choice but to begin the process of co-opting the story, putting their own spin on it, and providing the general Church members with a pat-answer and a warm fuzzy, so that their understanding of the multiple first visions might one day become as tender a piece of Church lore as the hokum surrounding the events of the lost 116 pages of the first BoM manuscript.

I don't get a chance to flip through an Ensign very often, but I thought it was interesting that when I did, I found the defense mechanisms of the Church being armed for battle...

You DO make a difference...

Paul

The doctrinal evolution continues, ah but the Church is still true! :confused:

Jeff

[silverfox]

That's great news, Paul. Now the church is going to play like they are under attack and don't deserve to be. hahahaha. Whatever. And good little faithful Mo's will hold fast and not waiver. I think that's what the church wants - to weed out the weak members and hold onto only the ones they can continue conditioning. Next thing you know we'll start hearing how young married couples better start popping out babies one after the other to increase the size of Zion. Someone has to replace all us evil apostates. heh heh.

I can't stand to look at an Ensign so I am happy you found the guts to do it. It is an interesting message from the prez, thanks for sharing.

(jumping up and down smilie here) We DO make a difference, We DO make a difference!!!!

Wait until that billboard goes up. WOOOOOHOOOOO

[lsands]

And you're right, Paul!!! If I had looked at the Ensign, I wouldn't have caught it on my own. Here's what the P of GP version says,

"When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Sorry for doubting you, but it blew me away that they'd quote a previous version! Wow!

Hinckely's talk certainly seems to be addressing us exmo's in large part. His article also says, "We live in a day of shifting values, of changing standards....We see this in government, we see it in public and private morality, we see it in the homes of the people, we see it in the churches, and we even see it among some of our own members who are led away by the sophistry of men....There may be those who will seek to tempt us away. There may be those who will try to bait us. We may be disparaged. We may be belittled. We may be inveighed against. We may be caricatured before the world.

Long live disparagement, belittling, inveighing, and caricaturing! :D

[tjohnson]

Sometimes I think it's easy to wonder if we make a difference in the big scheme of things. The Church seems to keep growing, they seem to build more buildings, they seem to grow more wealthy... Is there anything more to this "movement" out of the Church than just hovering around each other saying "there, there, it'll all be okay one day...you'll see."

You DO make a difference...

Paul

It's so nice to see that the church has recognized they have a problem... it's called the Internet. They can no longer hide behind printing their own magazines that show the truth (as they know it) and they can no longer control the press the way they could before. The Internet is the catalyst that will expose the church for what it is... a large corporation run by power hungry men that change history whenever they can all get together and take a vote. :) (I've really started to wonder what a meeting with the prophet and the apostles would be like... and I'm starting to see a corporate board room where an idea or direction is presented and then they take a vote).

My goal is to save one soul... but it has a much different meaning than the church's version... just like everything else. :D

Travis

P.S. I heard from a somewhat reliable source that the church had a "net loss of 5 stakes last year". :D

[nikki]

And you're right, Paul!!! If I had looked at the Ensign, I wouldn't have caught it on my own. Here's what the P of GP version says,

"When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Sorry for doubting you, but it blew me away that they'd quote a previous version! Wow!

Hinckely's talk certainly seems to be addressing us exmo's in large part. His article also says, "We live in a day of shifting values, of changing standards....We see this in government, we see it in public and private morality, we see it in the homes of the people, we see it in the churches, and we even see it among some of our own members who are led away by the sophistry of men....There may be those who will seek to tempt us away. There may be those who will try to bait us. We may be disparaged. We may be belittled. We may be inveighed against. We may be caricatured before the world.

Long live disparagement, belittling, inveighing, and caricaturing! :D

Thank you Island for putting in the quote which was told for many years, the revision is well... how can I say this, like changes in the temple ceremony.. :rolleyes: Yep, they always said there were two (2) people who came, gave the son introduction and so on.

In thinking about Joseph Smith's life I am not sure he would like the current account, seems more exciting if two people come on a spiritual visit!. A thought on J.S. being forgiven and all during this vision, with the life syle Joseph Smith lived later during his religious life, seems it would have been better for him to be forgiven after bedding all the women, and wives of other men! :eek:

Poor Joe Smith will have to obtain forgiveness the hard way! :p

[mutleydog]

....we do make a difference!!

"The power of one is like the power of many,
When the many come together they make that which is invincible...
The Power of One"
(Bryce Courteney, The Power of One)

Thanks for all the posts. I know as post-mormons we do and will make a big difference. By continually exposing the church for what it is, by telling our stories and 'testifying' to the huge glitches in its doctrine and workings we will see people running! I know just from my own experience about being honest about the church, the affect it had on me etc. I have seen many positive responses from people who no-longer regard the mormons as a church/religion, but see it in a more commercial, quite sinister light.

Just the comments yesterday from the woman who went to the book signing is a good example of how 'we' can make TBM's think about what the church is really about. Thats only one person we know of that has raised questions in her own mind, but we don't know how many more done the same!

I feel much more confident about speaking my mind to lds people I bump into or am in contact with. Its like doing missionary work in the reverse! I had a friend that left the church before I did, and admittedly by her actions it made me think so much more. I just hope some lds friends did the same when I left.....

On a personal level, post-mormons.com makes a difference to those who attend the community. It has certainly made a difference for me. I have found it extremely helpful and encouraging to have found this place. I do not feel alone anymore on my path of being mormon-free.......Thank you! :D

[free thinker]

I am very anxious for the billboards!! I do not live in Happy Valley, but I just want to know they are up!

The internet has changed EVERYTHING!! Only those who wish it hadn't, believe it hasn't.

Rock On Postmormon.com!!! The revolution has begun!! :cool:


Free Thinker

[Jeff_Ricks]

On a personal level, post-mormons.com makes a difference to those who attend the community. It has certainly made a difference for me. I have found it extremely helpful and encouraging to have found this place. I do not feel alone anymore on my path of being mormon-free.......Thank you! :D

Thanks! It does my heart good to read such comments. :-)

Jeff