I am grieved...

[mutleydog]

I have been reading back on some of the threads. I am grieved to see so many relate to the kinds of abuse that are predominant in the church. I only know of one case of abuse.....a friend and her sister were sexually abused by their brother when he was still a teenager. It angered me so much that he wasn't reported to the appropriate authorities but instead the church handled it by sending him to counseling and pushing it under the carpet. The friend in question doesn't remember much about what happened with him at the time, but for the sake of the church her parents were in near enough denial. Its only in her adult years the consequences have come forth with respect to relationship and self-esteem problems to name but a few. Her brother still served a mission, still entered BYU etc. as if what he did was ok and is totally living a normal life. What happened was not acceptable and I often fear that he couldn't have totally changed his ways......it makes my blood run cold that he could be counselling lds youth in church leadership capacity. My friend could never fault the church stand on things though, which really frustrated me.......

I haven't been abused by any church member as such, apart from the embarrassing and at times humiliating interviews I had on sexual matters, but I have been sexually and physically abused by members of my family. I counselled with various lds leaders about my experiences and the emotional consequences of such and I can safely say it was quite a traumatic experience. I hated being treated like I was in the wrong for not forgiving my perpetraitor so readily and because I was 17/18 when it happened it was like I was old enough to make my own choice to whether it continued or not......it certainly wasn't like that.....emotional blackmail can be a very strong force.

I sought professional counselling and my counsellor was shocked to hear of my church experiences to deal with everything that had happened......I owe alot to her for helping me see that church was not a good force in my life.......

[shamdiel]

I can sympathize with your feelings but I feel that there is need for more information and understanding when it comes to these delicate issues. For one thing abuse is not a one way street. What I mean is usually a person who abuses was also abused at sometime in their life. Please don't think I am trying to be an apologist here , I am just trying for a more clear understanding. When it comes to Mormons we not only have young men who have suffered abuse themselves but also a second problem of not being able to get any honest information about their true nature or the nature of their awakening sexual feelings! Let me explain. When a young Mormon boy starts to get curious about his sexuality he is immediately made to feel ashamed that he was even curious. He is further made to feel that he is sinning before God if he actually starts to explore his feelings by masturbating or playing nasty games with female family or friends. I was told, at age six, that I was a nasty boy and could have made my 5 year old sister pregnant, when our mother caught us playing 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours'. A game I was taught by my 10 year old sister. I was spanked on top of the healthy dose of shame that I was given. So what happens? A young man is given no choice but to learn about these things in the bathroom at School, from friends, or from other unscrupulous sources. The biggest problem, here, is that a young mans sexual awaking is biological, it is genetic and has been programmed into the male human for hundreds of thousands of years. I saw a documentary once, about Dolphins. In it the point was made that Dolphins were one of four large brain mammals. Humans, dogs and great apes being the other three. They noticed a strange behavior that dolphins had. The infants would leave the safety of the heard to go play sex games with the teenagers and other infants. Well guess what? Apes and dogs do it too! Humans are the only large brain mammals who are trying to deny their nature and label this natural behavior as bad. And guess where that came from? Yup! Religion!! Hiding your head in the sand or trying to blow theses things off only make the problem worse! Our societies, today, have a tendency to ignore these issues as if they should take care of themselves. We should take the lead with our young people and let them know that their sexual awaking is natural and healthy and we should help make it safe for them to explore and find themselves. It is a very complex and confusing time for them and they need our help not our ridicule and disgust. Think about it, okay? But what ever you do, please let go of the past and realize the people that abused you were hurt and hurting too. There was no one there to help or understand them in their time of need.
John

[silverfox]

Think about it, okay? But what ever you do, please let go of the past and realize the people that abused you were hurt and hurting too. There was no one there to help or understand them in their time of need.
John

You make valid points, John. And I think the chain of abuse is what can be so disturbing. There are cases within the church where the church has actually enabled the abuser to continue to do so. This is where it gets murky. One one hand a victim may sympathize to learn that the abuser was also a victim. BUT not all victims go on to continue the cycle of abuse. I was sexually abused but I have NEVER made the choice or have had the desire to abuse anyone else. There isn't always a chain like you are describing. And it isn't always a male who is the perpertrator.

I understand that the church has an unhealthy view of sexual development in our young people and you are absolutely correct that as a society we need to be more open and informative in a responsible way, IMO. The church's reaction to normal healthy sexual development causes a lot of damage.

For the most part TBM parents don't want to talk about it, and kids are left on their own trying to figure this stuff out with resources sometimes only being friends, TV, etc just as you explain. But it is not an excuse for abuse. Clearly there is something much deeper going on with an abuser who feels they must force their desires and allow it to result in physical and emotional pain for their victims.

If a victim can simply "let go of the past" believe me they would. It isn't that simple. Issues must be resolved and addressed. And just because an abuser may have also been a victim does NOT make it any easier to "let go". Your request to ask for understanding from an abuser's circumstances is valid but victims need their pain validated and resolved.

My abusers were NOT abused by anyone else. There was not a chain of abuse. I don't sympathize with them at all. Sorry there was no excuse except they allowed themselves to make that choice. They were selfish.

And victims pay the very heavy price.

Edited to add: I do not wish for my response to appear that I am attacking anyone or judging anyone. I do have an emotional investment when it comes to this topic so I may respond more with emotion rather than logic at times. No offense intended or meant. I think very valid points have been made and I understand no one is trying to be apologists when it comes to this topic.

[mutleydog]

John, You have made very valid points, but I think they need to put into context. I can understand where you are coming from - there does need to be more openess within the church and in some cases society in general. I think that would help in the many aspects you were talking about. However, I think there is a clear difference between a 'healthy' curiousity with sexual matters (that many lds and non-lds kids experience either on a personal level or together (as you say 'I'll show you if you show me' scenario)- this to me is pure innocence and a natural part of growing up) and those that choose to exert their power in a sexual context and know exactly what they are doing. Like Silverfox said, there are many abusers that have not been abused themselves that still committ these acts. I empathise with anyone that has experienced such violation and pain, and in some cases act on these experiences to justify what happened to them or in very few cases think that it is ok to do so. The point is, whatever the reasons behind such acts, they are wrong and never justifiable. The brother that I was referring too was in his teens, had no history but still systematically violated his sisters. His acts were not out of curiousity - they were a clear cut case of exerting emotional and physical power over his younger sisters. The point I was trying to make, was the fact he should have recieved not only psychological help, but also clear reprimand for his actions. The church never allowed this matter to go outside its walls and to me that is in someway like condoning his actions. It angers me that the sisters never recieved any help at all and were just left to 'just get over it'....and at 30+ are still doing so.

Silverfox, thank you for your understanding........it is a hard road to travel.....

[nikki]

I can sympathize with your feelings but I feel that there is need for more information and understanding when it comes to these delicate issues. For one thing abuse is not a one way street. What I mean is usually a person who abuses was also abused at sometime in their life. Please don't think I am trying to be an apologist here , I am just trying for a more clear understanding. When it comes to Mormons we not only have young men who have suffered abuse themselves but also a second problem of not being able to get any honest information about their true nature or the nature of their awakening sexual feelings! Let me explain. When a young Mormon boy starts to get curious about his sexuality he is immediately made to feel ashamed that he was even curious. He is further made to feel that he is sinning before God if he actually starts to explore his feelings by masturbating or playing nasty games with female family or friends. I was told, at age six, that I was a nasty boy and could have made my 5 year old sister pregnant, when our mother caught us playing 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours'. A game I was taught by my 10 year old sister. I was spanked on top of the healthy dose of shame that I was given. So what happens? A young man is given no choice but to learn about these things in the bathroom at School, from friends, or from other unscrupulous sources. The biggest problem, here, is that a young mans sexual awaking is biological, it is genetic and has been programmed into the male human for hundreds of thousands of years. I saw a documentary once, about Dolphins. In it the point was made that Dolphins were one of four large brain mammals. Humans, dogs and great apes being the other three. They noticed a strange behavior that dolphins had. The infants would leave the safety of the heard to go play sex games with the teenagers and other infants. Well guess what? Apes and dogs do it too! Humans are the only large brain mammals who are trying to deny their nature and label this natural behavior as bad. And guess where that came from? Yup! Religion!! Hiding your head in the sand or trying to blow theses things off only make the problem worse! Our societies, today, have a tendency to ignore these issues as if they should take care of themselves. We should take the lead with our young people and let them know that their sexual awaking is natural and healthy and we should help make it safe for them to explore and find themselves. It is a very complex and confusing time for them and they need our help not our ridicule and disgust. Think about it, okay? But what ever you do, please let go of the past and realize the people that abused you were hurt and hurting too. There was no one there to help or understand them in their time of need.
John



John,

I am sorry but letting go of the past, and understanding that the abuser who abused is hurting too is just an abuser asking permission to get away with their action. My understanding ends there. Better said to the abuser you abused, and even if you had been abused, why are you asking someone to suffer futher by excusing your actions?

Secondly, the church has a very split morality, proclaims strict sexual morals, while permitting sexual abuse. That is quite a brain split.

I am not into sexual exploration between teens and young children, nor do I feel it right.

Young children may have some early childhood sexual exploration, say playing doctor, but no way should teens enter in with this activity with young children. When children enter into this discovery time, it is important the parent, speak with the child about their bodies, and also somehow relate to them the setting of boundries for other people in reguards to their bodies. This is for the childs own safety.

Teens may get caught up in passion, this is true.

But our bodies are our own. It is our own space, and no one should be premited to invade that space unless as rational, mature thinking people we let them.

There is nothing prudish about this just simple logical, thinking.

Victims have a double difficulty, first the abuse, then being understood. They already know what happened to them. Others who were not victims need time to investigate ( does that make a victim feel great) they have check the story out. Although, I can understand this, it does not mean it is any less easy for the victim.

Then there are those who come in and may wish to exploit the victim for their own advantage, or adjenda. And the victim can/is victimized in another form of exploitation.

Yes, motleydog, it is sad to read of abuses of people, sad the church covers up, and sad others will exploit.

There are abusers who were not abused, and came from good backgrounds. Most I know were not abused in childhood, or in growning up. But it is different for everyone.

For the few who are helpful people to victims, thank God for the good and kindhearted people.

Best to you as you recover from your own Motleydog

[shamdiel]

I realize that one scenario doesn't explain all events. Everyone who has experienced any abuse has been subjected to a very personal and traumatic event. You make very valid points on what a person must do to let go of these painful occurrences in their lives. To make a point here though, one of my sister confronted me with abuse issues she had against me from when we were young, pre and early teen. Some of the events she recalled never happened. So where did they come from? Well, the only thing I could come up with is, because she had never received closure on these things and the fact that I had never apologized, caused her to hold on for so long that she had blurred things together in her mind. Things that had happened with things that did not happen... Now I was guilty of far more than ever had occurred. What really struck me is how hurt she was and for how long she had been carrying this. She was in her forties! I of course apologized and we discussed all that she remembered, but, and here is the main point, she had giving me far too much control over her life for far too long! Something I was not aware of nor did I want. She said she had been to counseling for these things but did not put them to rest until we talked!
Any woman or man that has been abused should realize that, the longer they hang on to this trauma without getting it resolved, the longer they give their abuser/s power over them, a power the abuser/s do not deserve! Even without considering why a person becomes an abuser better to get things over and done with than to let it go on for years. Let there be one person that is all messed up and not two! I could have been an adult abuser and probably would have if I hadn't left the church. Please understand, I did not want to be an abuser but I probably would have. Leaving the church finally allowed me to discover my sexuality, openly, without shame or guilt.
Let me express this understanding as well; I don't believe all abuse would end, even if this world was a utopia! I believe that there are just some people that are genetically predisposed to meanness. We can never change that! Better to involve ourselves in healing the wounded soul, as I believe God would do, and not to be caught up in judgment or punishment.
John

[peter_mary]

I can sympathize with your feelings but I feel that there is need for more information and understanding when it comes to these delicate issues.

John

I think a healthy community has compassion for people who find themselves in a situation where bad things make sense to them. Healthy communities seek understanding, seek rehabilitation, and ultimately are willing to forgive the truly penitent. Healthy communities also ensure that those people are NOT in a position to do those bad things any more. Compassion is a good, healthy, honorable goal. Enabling is not.

If you are suggesting we be compassionate, and seek to understand the mind and complex histories of the perpetrators, recognizing that there is much we don't know/can't understand, then I agree with you. But we have to be SO careful not to make excuses for people's behavior, because no matter WHAT drives a person to injure another, it is still a hurt, and often an irreparable hurt, and society (and churches) have a moral obligation to ensure that the perpetrator can not hurt anyone else. It is not enough to ask them to stop. It is not enough to ask them if they have repented. It is not enough to forgive them when they hoodwink you into believing that they see the evil of their ways and promise not to ever, ever do it again. It is not enough.

Sometimes "loving the sinner" means making sure that they are removed from society, to allow them the opportunity to work through their own issues, and to protect the folks who might otherwise be victimized. To take it to an extreme for the sake of illustration, no one would argue that a serial killer who is severely mentally ill should be left alone because we should have compassion for his illness. We would never argue that because his insanity is the result of Post Traumatic Stress that he suffered as, for the sake of example, a Marine in Iraq, that we should just try to understand that he has issues and feel sorry for him. We DO feel sorry for him...and we want him behind bars. Compassion often includes removing someone from a circumstance in which they have demonstrated that they are unable, incapable, or unwilling to behave in a socially responsible manner.

Now...that said, I think an important part of your point is that the Church (and many other institutions) not only does a disservice to victims, it ALSO contributes to the deluded thinking of the perpetrators. The sexual impulse is a strong one, and by demonizing that impulse, we engage in crazy-making thinking. I also think, (and this has been suggested already by Silverfox, Mutleydog and Nikki), that sexual ABUSE is less often about sexual impulses, and more often about power and control impulses, made MANIFEST through sexual abuse. So do I need to pontificate here on how a Patriarchal Church contributes to "power and control" issues among men?

I didn't think so...

What might, therefore, be an important footnote to the ongoing conversation that we're having about abuse is simply this: The systems of the Church are such that the reprehensible behavior of the abuser is fostered through a misguided partriarchal paradigm, and the victims are further victimized by those same systems. BOTH victims and perpetrators are injured by the systems and prevailing paradigms of the Church.

Maybe that was your point, John?

Paul

[peter_mary]

. To make a point here though, one of my sister confronted me with abuse issues she had against me from when we were young, pre and early teen.

This was a courageous post.

To all of you, on both sides of this issue, who have struggled to understand, wrestled with guilt and shame, and who come here to talk about it in the spirit of dialogue, my hat is off to you. You all have my utmost respect.

Paul

[silverfox]

I’ve researched the impact of abuse and it is referred to as an illness time and time again in some cases. I also have read from several different sources that 85% of sexual abusers are not capable of rehabilitation. I just want to throw that out there.

First I am sorry that you were accused of events that may not have occurred. That must have been very frightening as a young boy.

I feel I must respond to this comment:

You said, “Any woman or man that has been abused should realize that, the longer they hang on to this trauma without getting it resolved, the longer they give their abuser/s power over them, a power the abuser/s do not deserve!”

IMNSHO, victims do not give abusers control. IT IS FORCIBLY TAKEN. It is not a choice. It can take years even a lifetime to heal from abuse. There is no shame in that. There is nothing wrong with that. This doesn't mean victims are "flawed" or weak or irrational. It means that victims aren't animals. Victims aren't dolphins, dogs or apes. Victims are human beings with emotions and intelligence and require much to heal. It is different for everyone.

Many times it is left up to the victim to find resolution when the abuser goes on with their lives and at times blaming anything and everything for their actions. This adds to the pain and emotional damage.


I am curious, you say if you had remained a member of the church you would have been an adult abuser. Please expand as I want to understand this. I am curious why some abusers feel the need to victimize just because they are members of the church? Easy victims? Forced morals?

Many people Mormon and not grow up being taught sex is bad and evil and can’t be talked about. But most don’t become abusers because of it. Yes the church handles a lot of cases inappropriately enabling abuse to continue. However, abuse is still a choice.

I hope all abusers receive counseling and come to terms with the damage and the impact their choices inflict. Own it, understand it, embrace it and do everything you can to fix it BEFORE the victim has to ask you to do so.

I hope you and your sister find peace in your relationship if you haven't already. Sounds like the apology was the first step she needed.

[silverfox]

What might, therefore, be an important footnote to the ongoing conversation that we're having about abuse is simply this: The systems of the Church are such that the reprehensible behavior of the abuser is fostered through a misguided partriarchal paradigm, and the victims are further victimized by those same systems. BOTH victims and perpetrators are injured by the systems and prevailing paradigms of the Church.

Maybe that was your point, John?

Paul

I agree with this, Paul. I think we all agree with this. Very good post, thanks. :)

[silverfox]

This was a courageous post.

To all of you, on both sides of this issue, who have struggled to understand, wrestled with guilt and shame, and who come here to talk about it in the spirit of dialogue, my hat is off to you. You all have my utmost respect.

Paul

I hope folks from both sides can come here and learn from each other.

[nikki]

I realize that one scenario doesn't explain all events. Everyone who has experienced any abuse has been subjected to a very personal and traumatic event. You make very valid points on what a person must do to let go of these painful occurrences in their lives. To make a point here though, one of my sister confronted me with abuse issues she had against me from when we were young, pre and early teen. Some of the events she recalled never happened. So where did they come from? Well, the only thing I could come up with is, because she had never received closure on these things and the fact that I had never apologized, caused her to hold on for so long that she had blurred things together in her mind. Things that had happened with things that did not happen... Now I was guilty of far more than ever had occurred. What really struck me is how hurt she was and for how long she had been carrying this. She was in her forties! I of course apologized and we discussed all that she remembered, but, and here is the main point, she had giving me far too much control over her life for far too long! Something I was not aware of nor did I want. She said she had been to counseling for these things but did not put them to rest until we talked!
Any woman or man that has been abused should realize that, the longer they hang on to this trauma without getting it resolved, the longer they give their abuser/s power over them, a power the abuser/s do not deserve! Even without considering why a person becomes an abuser better to get things over and done with than to let it go on for years. Let there be one person that is all messed up and not two! I could have been an adult abuser and probably would have if I hadn't left the church. Please understand, I did not want to be an abuser but I probably would have. Leaving the church finally allowed me to discover my sexuality, openly, without shame or guilt.
Let me express this understanding as well; I don't believe all abuse would end, even if this world was a utopia! I believe that there are just some people that are genetically predisposed to meanness. We can never change that! Better to involve ourselves in healing the wounded soul, as I believe God would do, and not to be caught up in judgment or punishment.
John

John,

you are correct in the area of hang on to abuse and not getting it resolved. There are many different kinds of abuse, and the range and degree can very.

Most people with open wounds may not have been able to resolve the issue, and the abuser may still wish to have power over them, even when they try to remove themselves. There are many complex types of relationships.

It is good you and your sister were able to speak, and hopefully resolve the issue which happened between you. And you are correct that sometimes the abuser is given power over the victim, by the victim not letting go and carrying the harm.

There are many levels of abuse. I know someone who's abuser has no intentions of letting go, and hurting until the max for as long as they can. It has been diffiuclt for them to get away.

For you it is good you saw the link to the chruch and the affect it had on your actions and were able to resolve the issue you had.

Paul gave some good insight to the issue in his posts. I still recommend highly a book titled 'The Betrayal Bond' by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D. for anyone involved in abusive relationship, whether sexual abusive relationship, emotional, or physical. Easy for the lay person to read, and understand.

John you gave some good also in your last post.

[shamdiel]

John,

you are correct in the area of hang on to abuse and not getting it resolved. There are many different kinds of abuse, and the range and degree can very.

Most people with open wounds may not have been able to resolve the issue, and the abuser may still wish to have power over them, even when they try to remove themselves. There are many complex types of relationships.

It is good you and your sister were able to speak, and hopefully resolve the issue which happened between you. And you are correct that sometimes the abuser is given power over the victim, by the victim not letting go and carrying the harm.

There are many levels of abuse. I know someone who's abuser has no intentions of letting go, and hurting until the max for as long as they can. It has been diffiuclt for them to get away.

For you it is good you saw the link to the chruch and the affect it had on your actions and were able to resolve the issue you had.

Paul gave some good insight to the issue in his posts. I still recommend highly a book titled 'The Betrayal Bond' by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D. for anyone involved in abusive relationship, whether sexual abusive relationship, emotional, or physical. Easy for the lay person to read, and understand.

John you gave some good also in your last post.
Wow; you guys ar great! And Paul did express, much more eloquently than I could, some of what I was trying to say. I am not trying to escuse someones bad behavior or reason it away. Neither am I trying to minimize any pain someone may have suffered at the hands of another. But definitions are slippery and saying something is one thing today may not be the same thing tomorrow. A couple of articles that I have read in the newspaper come to mind here. One a mother and father were arrested and charged with child sexual explotation because the roll of film they had developed had some pictures of their children in the bath tub. The other was a five or six year old boy was aressted and charged with sexual abuse because he was doing the touchy feely thing with one of his little girl friends. Extream examples? Maybe but, don't forget there is a ultra conservitive wind a blownig in America right now. It could get worse. When I was growing up in the 60's no one ever would have been aressted for taking pix of their kids in the tub! How many of us have done that ,for heaven's sake. Never crossed our minds we could have wound up in jail... Yes, if someone is a sociopath by all means get them out of society and try to help them if at all possible. I am all for reason and sanity. If I err let me err on the side of compassion! Please forgive if I made anyone feel I was making light of their suffering.

[nikki]

Wow; you guys ar great! And Paul did express, much more eloquently than I could, some of what I was trying to say. I am not trying to escuse someones bad behavior or reason it away. Neither am I trying to minimize any pain someone may have suffered at the hands of another. But definitions are slippery and saying something is one thing today may not be the same thing tomorrow. A couple of articles that I have read in the newspaper come to mind here. One a mother and father were arrested and charged with child sexual explotation because the roll of film they had developed had some pictures of their children in the bath tub. The other was a five or six year old boy was aressted and charged with sexual abuse because he was doing the touchy feely thing with one of his little girl friends. Extream examples? Maybe but, don't forget there is a ultra conservitive wind a blownig in America right now. It could get worse. When I was growing up in the 60's no one ever would have been aressted for taking pix of their kids in the tub! How many of us have done that ,for heaven's sake. Never crossed our minds we could have wound up in jail... Yes, if someone is a sociopath by all means get them out of society and try to help them if at all possible. I am all for reason and sanity. If I err let me err on the side of compassion! Please forgive if I made anyone feel I was making light of their suffering.

The problems of the extreme cases you referred to: the photo in the bath tub and the very young six year old children. Are extreme cases, and in our current court climate not unknown of.

Note there is a brain split on cover up of sexual assult, and not understanding dr. playing. If the behavior was excessive in the 6 year old, it would be wise to look to see if the 6 year old had been abused himself. As I understand, a young child who is sexually abused can out out also in a sexual manner with others. The board can correct me if I am not right with the statement.

Inaddition, children are exposed to visual 'sex' in the media more than when I was growing up. We played outdoors more and played games with the neighborhood kids.

The reaction of the photographs and the 6 year old is not just a reaction in the conserative community, but in the liberal as well. Attorney and courts finds these cases great. ( sorry all attorney's but let's be honest about the current judical system) and I will not speak further of the legal system.

The levels of abuse which are found within the LDS culture for those who have the misfortune to be involved with the LDS Church in an abuse case, the church can be ruthless and cruel to the victim, as they cover for their friends and associates.

Many crimes are covered by the church to save the church's name, or the names of the people who are involved in wrong doing. :mad: The victims can be left damaged and discredited.

Some belief system.

[Jeff_Ricks]

If I err let me err on the side of compassion!

Compassion for whom, the victim who was taken advantage of and left to deal with the guilt and pain, or the perpetrator who walks away smiling taking no responsibility for his behavior?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I'm only trying to make a point. So many perpetrators get away with their crimes against others, and within Mormonism bet that the Church and family will back them up because they usually do. For the perpetrator it’s a pretty sure bet that family and Church will sweep it under the carpet to avoid embarrassment. And so these perpetrators continue committing their despicable crimes against others and continue walking away smiling. I say error on the side of compassion for the victim every time.

I also don't think one has to qualify as a sociopath to be rightly pulled out of society. Being a repeated manipulative abuser of others is all that it takes in my book.

I also have to be honest with you shamdiel, I find troubling your repeated defense of the perpetrator as if the perpetrator is the victim. And I see very little concern in your comments for those who were taken advantage of and who were in fact the real victim. Being the father an awesome 16 year old daughter who is by her gender, age and attractiveness a potential target for many a perpetrator out on the streets, I find your comments disturbing.

Jeff

[Born Free]

[QUOTE=shamdiel]I can sympathize with your feelings but I feel that there is need for more information and understanding when it comes to these delicate issues. For one thing abuse is not a one way street. What I mean is usually a person who abuses was also abused at sometime in their life. Please don't think I am trying to be an apologist here , I am just trying for a more clear understanding.

shamdiel,

Great points! Paranoia about sexual abuse does not enhance our capacity to respond wisely. Sibling sexual activity is generally not regarded as problematic as other forms of abuse, where the power differential may be much much greater. As you relate, many children experience the "you show me yours, and I'll show you mine."

That said some sibling sexual activity can be most cohersive and therefore abusive, and I agree that in many cases that has been precceded by their own exposure to abuse.

What all this shouts out to me is how inept the Church's response is. They pride themselves in their lay priesthood, but they are so naive about their ignorance. I expect we will see more cases of the Church being sued for inept and ignorant responses. But, I expect we will see more of what we have to date: settlements out of court, and the persistence of the bizaare combination of the insistance that they are 'called of God', yet ducking for cover, when 'God' fails to advise them they are dealing with sexual offenders.

I have said before and will go on saying to Mormons "Tell me of just 1 case, where a sexual predator was detected by the power of the priesthood".

I am still waiting, yet I know of about 10 cases of serious sexual abuse by priesthood holders, the majority of which were dealt with ineptly.

On the important issue of abusers having been abused (generally regarded that 70-80% of abusers have been abused), I have come to believe that the significance of that statistic is very poorly appreciated in the community. Some victims interpret that as meaning that they are bound to become an offender. There is some basic logic in understanding what that statement says, that is lost on many people.

That statment says nothing at all about what the abused are likely to do in the future. We need to clarify that message, because it comes over the top of the common belief by the abused, that they somehow caused or invited the attention. In some cases that unchecked (and untreated) belief has led to suicide.

Daryl

[nikki]

[QUOTE=shamdiel]I can sympathize with your feelings but I feel that there is need for more information and understanding when it comes to these delicate issues. For one thing abuse is not a one way street. What I mean is usually a person who abuses was also abused at sometime in their life. Please don't think I am trying to be an apologist here , I am just trying for a more clear understanding.

shamdiel,

Great points! Paranoia about sexual abuse does not enhance our capacity to respond wisely. Sibling sexual activity is generally not regarded as problematic as other forms of abuse, where the power differential may be much much greater. As you relate, many children experience the "you show me yours, and I'll show you mine."

That said some sibling sexual activity can be most cohersive and therefore abusive, and I agree that in many cases that has been precceded by their own exposure to abuse.

What all this shouts out to me is how inept the Church's response is. They pride themselves in their lay priesthood, but they are so naive about their ignorance. I expect we will see more cases of the Church being sued for inept and ignorant responses. But, I expect we will see more of what we have to date: settlements out of court, and the persistence of the bizaare combination of the insistance that they are 'called of God', yet ducking for cover, when 'God' fails to advise them they are dealing with sexual offenders.

I have said before and will go on saying to Mormons "Tell me of just 1 case, where a sexual predator was detected by the power of the priesthood".

I am still waiting, yet I know of about 10 cases of serious sexual abuse by priesthood holders, the majority of which were dealt with ineptly.

On the important issue of abusers having been abused (generally regarded that 70-80% of abusers have been abused), I have come to believe that the significance of that statistic is very poorly appreciated in the community. Some victims interpret that as meaning that they are bound to become an offender. There is some basic logic in understanding what that statement says, that is lost on many people.

That statment says nothing at all about what the abused are likely to do in the future. We need to clarify that message, because it comes over the top of the common belief by the abused, that they somehow caused or invited the attention. In some cases that unchecked (and untreated) belief has led to suicide.

Daryl


Thank you for showing the distinction between siblings being involved in "show me yours, I'll show you mine", and agressive abuse. Thank you Daryl for stating this area clearly.

The church can lead people into a conflict of internal feelings, and make people behave in poor and abusive manners because of confusing feelings and expectations.

As the other posters mentioned, the victim does not bring on the abuse of another, again you are correct Daryl for pointing this issue out and bring the matter out more clearly.

Victimizers are very skilled at putting the blame on the victim. Giving the victim both the truama of the abuse to deal with (which SilverFox touched on), inadditon to the burden of carrying the placement of wrongful guilt on victim.

Other areas victimizers are skilled at is the placing on the victim the additonal burden of keeping "the secret', thus the abuser safe. The victimizer accomplishes this by making the victim feel they are responsible, or by making the victim feel 'special' and that they are involved in a 'special' relationship. As long at the victim feels guilt, or feels they are unique, the secret stays safe, and the victimizer protected.

There is a term called " identification with the aggressor" " which means the victim will start to perceive the world from the point of view of the aggressor and is draw into the web of abuse with the aggressor.

The relationships can become complex in role of victim/victimizer .

There is one I am concerned about myself, and also their alignment with others of the same nature.

The topic is a good topic and there are many points to the discussion. I hope the thread continues to exchange learning, experience and knowlege on the subject. There are many facets to the issue.

[Born Free]

I sought professional counselling and my counsellor was shocked to hear of my church experiences to deal with everything that had happened......I owe alot to her for helping me see that church was not a good force in my life.......[/COLOR]

It only just struck me after reading several of these responses on this thread that Mormonism has another level of abusiveness.

I mentioned elsewhere how many victims, particularly younger ones, blame themselves for what happened. For example, many young men who have been sexually assulted feel that because they got an erection, they may really be homosexual and somehow caused teh assult, and that complicates matters even further. It comes as a bit of a "get out of jail' for many when you explain that men get erections when being hanged as well, and that it may have nothing to do with normal sexual arousal, and says more about the curious wiring of the brain that fear centres in the brain easily 'pollute' the sexual areas.

But in response to the above, not only does Mormonism NOT alleviate the victims ego-centric response to trauma, but in many/most cases it assists in lumbering them with guilt and inappropriate responsibility.

With every passing day, I gain greater insight into how toxic Mormonism can be, and frequently is. Yet, they remain convinced of their good intent, as if that is sufficient!

Daryl

[mutleydog]

The topic is a good topic and there are many points to the discussion. I hope the thread continues to exchange learning, experience and knowlege on the subject. There are many facets to the issue.


I would certainly have to agree with you!! I never imagined that posting my wee thoughts that it would generate such interesting insights and discussion. Thank you to everyone.....may it continue!! ;)

[bigeddy]

I keep getting this image in my head concerning a Michael Douglas film (I forget the name of it) where he was accused of assaulting a female at his workplace when in reality she was the one assaulting him. Someone kept emailing him advise. The emails tended to keep reminding him "Solve the problem." Almost always when I see this issue come up I see communities get so divided as the emotions run to very understandable places and extents. A common result is that our ability to solve any of the problems gets dissapaited in the emotional upheaval. I usually marvel at the outcome, which tends to be that the community becomes more divided than ever and none of the problems are solved. I would prefer not to see that here.

I think we need to be aware of which problem we are trying to solve; helping victims heal, helping victims who became abusers heal, preventing further abuse, etc. Quite often these get lost in needs to comfort pain by punishing abusers and seeing justice be satisfied, to some degree. Which problem does justice solve?

Problem; helping victims heal. I find it does little good to address problem #2 (helping victims who became abusers) when trying to solve #1 (helping victims heal.) I find that victims need me to hear their pain and validate the horrible effects of abuse. Oh, how I wish the pain was just phyisical or that it was limited to the abusive incident(s) alone. My daughter told me one day about the pain that happened after the abuse and that it happened again, and again. Every time she sat through a morality lesson in Young Women's meetings, every seminary lesson dealing with morality, every family discussion (extended family especially) was a reinflicting. (Vaughn Featherstone came to our area of Florida when I was the CES coordinator and spoke to the youth of 2 stakes. He told the story of a young woman in SLC who fought off an attacker and was nearly killed trying to "defend her virtue" (what an asinine comment). He extolled the value of being willing to die rather than be abused. I wanted to administer 2x4 therapy to the man. I looked around the congregation and saw many young women I knew had been abused but did not "fight off" the abuser. I saw what his ignorant but authoritative reply did to them.) The kind of pain victims go through again and again for decades often, is, to me, almost unimaginable. Solving this problem must not be derailed by addressing other problems in the midst of the process. Justice/punishment is a very important part of solving #1. Victims need to have the truth "It was not your fault" driven home again and again. One way that helps is when they see the person who did the abusing "brought to justince". They need to see us, as a society, demand that an abuser give account for their behavior by standing in front of a judge, receiving some form of public notice that it was their choosing that hurt an inocent victim, and seeing us demand of an abuser that something be done about it. This is a great help to solving #1. Often however we confuse solving #1 with what will solve #2.

Problem; helping victims who are abusers to heal. If problem #1 has not been solved any efforts to solve this one get all mucked up because anyone making the attempt is seen as being "soft" on abusers. I was treating a man who molested his step-daughter. This man had been molested for years by 4 uncles. I was also treating his step-daughter. Our DCFS workers were all upset at me and declared that it was unethical for me to treat the victim and the abuser. I pointed out that the man was a victim and that I cannot seperate his victim side and treat that alone. The DCFS workers (several of them) were victims who had never solved problem #1 (healing their own victimization issues) and so could not deal with problem #2 without contaminating the work.

It is so very important to clear up misunderstandings regarding rehabilitation. (i.e. how do you RE habilitate a person who was never habilitated in the first place?) The old statistics regarding offenders are just that, old. When it was reported that .2% of offenders could be rehabilitated we were doing a type of treatment that was characterized by using shame to deter offense. That means that we were treating the problem with the thing that caused it (most often) in the first place. You cannot heal malnutrition by placing the starving person on a diet. It will not work, ever! The newer statistics based on appropriate treatment are very encouraging. The President of ATSA (Association for the Treatment of Sex Abusers) reported a couple of years ago that with appropriate treatment 90.9% of abusers do not reoffend. So this problem is solvable. What John (shamdiel) stated about his not wanting to offend is very common. So what about choice? It is still a choice to offend, is it not? Regardless of whether the offender was himself a victim. This is why I wrote the article on Shame and the Destruction of Agency. The assumption that choice is like a light switch; either you have a choice or you don't, is not an accurate view. The availability of options, the freedom from compulsion, the affective ability to know--emotionally know--what is "right" and "wrong" are all on a continuum. If we want to solve problems #2 and 3 we have to address the reality that choosing is like a dimmer switch. Now, I am I excusing the abuser. Hell no. I teach abusers that there is no excuse for hurting another person; never, ever, so don't try to give me an excuse. But, if we confuse excuse with reason; if we say that because there is no excuse for the behavior then there is no reason for it, we will never solve problems 2 and 3. There is always a reason. The quest for the answer to "why did I abuse" is one many honest, good men who have abused are asking. We must help them answer that question without excusing their behavior in order to solve problems 2 and 3.

Problem; how to prevent further abuse. First we have to solve #2 so that the abusers we have caught are prevented (by incarceration or appropriate treatment) from re-abusing. The current abuser registry sites on the internet are a foul statement of our failure to solve #2. If these people are not safe; why are they out on the street?!? If they are safe, why are their faces, names, automobile make and license, on the internet?!? (I believe we do this because we have not solved problem #1 and we are using the internet registry as another way to beat the hell out of the abusers we have caught.)

Solving this problem rests on our ability to understand the reasons for abuse. John's statements regarding the confusion caused because so much of our society remains clueless about sexuality, are very important here. Other posts note the systemic nature of these causes. The system is so sick that we are creating, daily, hundreds of new abusers. To solve #3 we have to address this wider problem. If we are sincere about solving this problem we must take the energy evident whenever this issue comes up (on this board or any other) and begin to demand some change by societal forces (in utard this means the white shirted idiots sitting in tall white buildings in SLC). We cannot solve this problem without confronting the ignorance, secrecy and ineptitude of fat-cats who pretend to "know" because god told them.

Anyway, to those struggling w/#1--my heart goes out to you. Your pain is real, your often years of hurting deep inside are real and are known by some of us. If I can help, please ask.

To those struggling with #2 (John, I marveled at your courage to be so open) I agree that we need more information and acceptance of the realities concerning why abuse happens. It will never be enough to go on making the fundamental attribution error and think we are solving the problem.

To all of us, we need to get busy solving #3. This discussion is a start. THere is so much pain happening that is preventable, but only if we address the real problems.

Ed

[silverfox]

Everyone is amazing. I love how many channels we are being led down from this thread.

I know that I, for one am learning a lot here. As well as having feelings validated and emotions shared. I echo Jeff's last post. I a somewhat disturbed as well.

Being a victim, being involved in abuse cases in the church while in leadership roles, mentoring teen girls who were abused, and also having a cop husband who at one time was a parole agent for sex abusers, my focus has always leaned toward the victim and the damage done.

BigEddy - I will echo that the system fails the abusers as well as the victims. Jails are overcrowded, prisons are even worse. What really sucks is that there aren't enough programs for abusers so that they have the opportunity to be rehabilitated. I say the same thing for victims. The expense is outrageous and citizens prefer not to deal with it - until they are victimized.

On the other hand I've seen abusers who don't feel that what they did was wrong. They refuse to take responsibility. They are very uncooperative. In these cases, the abusers usually abuse again and again. Knowing the system will fail them and also knowing the system can also fail the victim.

Yes, I've seen cycles, where the abuser was also a victim at one time in their lives.

So, here, John, is where I think you can bring to the table an opportunity of understanding for us. You have been generous in sharing your experience as an abuser. And I want to learn from that. You hint at being a victim yourself. What should we, as citizens do to help abusers? And victims?

And opening it up to everyone here - for victims or parents of victims, friends of victims, etc....how do you feel the system failed you? Or helped you?

And John in your situation, how did the system fail you? Or help you?

When I talk about system I mean the legal system. If it was involved. If it wasn't, who failed you? Who helped you?

One thing I see time and time again is no one wants a prison or a jail in their neighborhood. Here in Utard, there are efforts trying to move the prison that is in Draper. Homes have been built around it in all directions over the years. When the prison was built there was nothing out there. Now there are homes everywhere, some are very prestigious in the area. Now the residents want the prison moved. What is wrong with this picture? They will come up with money to have it moved, I am sure of it.

But when it comes time to have a rehabilitation center or halfway house or jail or prison anywhere in a town the residents are uproared, for the most part. So what are we supposed to do?

Recently in my little town a group home for girls was built. It is on the outskirts of our rural town. There was a huge fight to keep it out. But the city moved forward and it's there, running smoothly, no problems in the neighborhood, etc. What a wonderful opportunity for these girls as well as for residents. There are job opportunities and revenue is being generated because of this new business.

What people forget is people who end up in these facilities are at one our neighbors, relatives, friends, coworkers, acquaintances, etc. Do you prefer they remain in your midst or would you prefer they be 20 miles away locked up?

I have rambled enough. I appreciate hearing from all angles. We can absolutely use this to our advantage as a learning opportunity.

Everyone has been generous in sharing their painful experiences.

[shamdiel]

Compassion for whom, the victim who was taken advantage of and left to deal with the guilt and pain, or the perpetrator who walks away smiling taking no responsibility for his behavior?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I'm only trying to make a point. So many perpetrators get away with their crimes against others, and within Mormonism bet that the Church and family will back them up because they usually do. For the perpetrator it’s a pretty sure bet that family and Church will sweep it under the carpet to avoid embarrassment. And so these perpetrators continue committing their despicable crimes against others and continue walking away smiling. I say error on the side of compassion for the victim every time.

I also don't think one has to qualify as a sociopath to be rightly pulled out of society. Being a repeated manipulative abuser of others is all that it takes in my book.

[I also have to be honest with you shamdiel, I find troubling your repeated defense of the perpetrator as if the perpetrator is the victim. And I see very little concern in your comments for those who were taken advantage of and who were in fact the real victim. Being the father an awesome 16 year old daughter who is by her gender, age and attractiveness a potential target for many a perpetrator out on the streets, I find your comments disturbing.]

Jeff
So Jeff,you are an administrator and you find my comments disturbing? Funny that you would while others don't. But, let me clarify something. I have had experiences with these abuse issues in my own family. Both of my daughters have been sexually abused. My oldest was fondled, many times, by one of my younger brothers,( as where 3 of another of my brothers young daughters) when she was a child between 3 and 5 years old. Although my Mormon family knew that the abuse was going on they did nothing and would not tell me for fear I would kill my brother! Try living with that!! My brother admitted he stopped fondling my daughter when he knew that I knew. She was also rapped by a friend when she was in junior high. Again she did not tell anyone, partly out of shame and partly because she thought I would kill the guy. There it is again! My youngest daughter was rapped by a friend of a friend when she was 11. What bothered me most was the way my brothers case was handled, not only by my Mormon family but also by the law. My brother was promised that he would be given help if he came clean, that they would send him to a facility that would counsel him and help him through his problem. But the Mormon judge decide to make an example of him by throwing the book at him and sentenced him to more time in state prison than a recent convicted killer had received! Now I know my brother, he had received a brain injury in a farming accident when he was 11 or 12 and that is pretty much where his social and emotional development stopped and about all he had done to these little girls was the touchy feely thing! Then there was the way the little girls were treated. They were made to feel ashamed and dirty as if they had done something really bad. My brothers 4 year old had to be put on suicide watch for h*## sakes! Even though our daughters had a terrible thing happen to them we were determined that they would not carry the stigma of VICTIM with them for the rest of their lives. We let them know that what had happened to them was something out of their control and that any sexual arousal they may have experience was natural and not dirty and did not make them party to the bad thing that had happened to them. My brother and I have maintained this open and honest attitude, about sex, with our children and these girls are now adult women, some with families of their own, and they all have healthy attitudes about sex and what happened to them. They are not victims and they will tell you that! So Jeff, if you are still disturbed let me enlighten you son; someday soon life and time will bring to your door matters much more grave than this and you will forget this little debate, we had in this forum, and the fact that you were disturbed.
John

[peter_mary]

When I read Big Eddy's response (thank you, by the way), I was reminded once again of one of the biggest obstacles people face in dealing with DIFFICULT emotional and psychological issues...the mantle of the Priesthood. Time and time again, Bishops and Stake Presidents are placed in a situation for which they have no proper training, no personal experience, no insight whatsoever, and yet are TOLD that they possess the power to do God's will. And so when confronted with a situation in their ward, such as abuse, they believe that not only are they responsible for dealing with it, but that God will ensure that they do it according to His almighty will...the correllary being that if it doesn't work, then it was the fault of the person seeking help, not the fault of his counsel. It's an easy out when our own faithfullness is ultimately the litmus test for the effectiveness of God's blessings in our lives.

On the other hand, Church leaders tend to have a real mistrust for therapy and psychology, probably because it tends to undermine the religious world-view. I don't know the history of that distrust. But I do know that the field of counseling and psychology has made great strides in facilitating the healing process, and Big Eddy's remarks were a stark reminder of the value of that training and knowledge. Too often, the biggest hurdle that victims and perpetrators alike have to availing themselves of that help is the mantle of the priesthood standing firmly in their way.

So in addition to Ed's three problems, I would only add problem number "0" getting it through the heads of the "stuffed white shirts in the phallic white building in the heart of downtown SCL" to appreciate that their priesthood power is not the right tool for the job when it comes to matters such as these. Then we can get on with getting the victims and the abusers the help they need in solving problems 1 and 2. (I realize that I'm really talking about part of Problem number 3...I just like having a problem number "0". Call me weird. :rolleyes: )

Paul

[lsands]

I think we need to be aware of which problem we are trying to solve; helping victims heal, helping victims who became abusers heal, preventing further abuse, etc. Quite often these get lost in needs to comfort pain by punishing abusers and seeing justice be satisfied, to some degree. Which problem does justice solve?
Ed

Thank you SO much, Ed, for sharing your professional expertise and experience with us here. I am always impressed at how you are able to feel and show compassion for everyone involved in an abusive situation and still hold abusers responsible for their actions. I hope that you will continue to share your wisdom with us here. This subject is so fraught with emotion and pain that it is often difficult to see things clearly. Since it is extremely unlikely that we will be able to influence the thinking of the men in the great and spacious building (except with lawsuits), maybe you can help us explore other ways we can be effective.

I had a long conversation about this very issue with my TBM (but thinking---and wavering) son last Sunday. I pointed out to him how church members put their children at higher risk for abuse because they see everyone in their ward as "family", and people to be accepted and trusted. Primary teachers, home teachers, bishops and counselors, scout leaders, you name it---we allow them into our homes and into our childrens' lives. For example, a Primary teacher in our ward in California wanted to take each child in his class who was having a birthday to go get an ice cream cone with him. My friends thanked him politely, but told him it was their family policy not to allow their children to go with anyone outside of their family. As far as I know, this Primary teacher was not a perpetrator, and his offer was motivated by a sincere interest in his students. But I learned from watching my friends that it was not an appropriate situation.

I was involved with DCFS and the Children's Justice Center in Utah County in the late 90's, and heard enough stories about things taking place right here in "Happy Valley" to curl your hair. One case, which ended with the conviction and imprisonment of the perpetrator, involved a man who molested dozens of children in Springville. After acquiring a significant amount of evidence from victiims, but before the case actually went to trial, the director of the CJC went to the bishop of the ward where this man lived and shared with the bishop the info. they had gathered, because this man was serving as the WARD NURSERY LEADER. The bishop did not want to hear the accusations and declined to release the man.

Thankfully, my son listened to what I had to say and agreed that parents need to be much more careful with their children.

If you want stories to support this, go to Lavina Fielding Anderson's and Janice Allred's site about the Mormon Alliance [http://mormonalliance.org/]. Their stated reason for their publications: "The purposes of the Mormon Alliance are to identify and document ecclesiastical/spiritual abuse in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS or Mormon Church), to promote healing and closure for its survivors, to build more sensitive leadership, to empower LDS members to participate with more authenticity in Mormonism, and to foster a healthier religious community." Of course, they both got exed---for these writings and other "sins" too, of course. So much for openness to truth by "the brethren."

I feel the communication provided by this board offer a similar opportunity. Thanks, all, for sharing such personal stories and feelings.

Laraine

[silverfox]

So Jeff,you are an administrator and you find my comments disturbing? Funny that you would while others don't. So Jeff, if you are still disturbed let me enlighten you son; someday soon life and time will bring to your door matters much more grave than this and you will forget this little debate, we had in this forum, and the fact that you were disturbed.
John

John, I am sure Jeff didn't mean his comments as a personal attack. And I also know that he not alone in finding some of your comments disturbing.

It's important that EVERYONE can be honest and open about their feelings especially in regard to such a sensitive and emotional topic. This will open communication and lead us to a better understanding of all angles and experiences of this topic.

It's great you were able to deal with your children's experiences and have such a positive outcome.

But this isn't the case with everyone who has shared the same experiences. We all react differently to such sensitive topics and that's okay.

And I hope no one has to deal with anything more grave than what you and your children have had to endure. And to most of us there is nothing more grave than knowing your child has had to endure any kind of manipulation and abuse. It's okay that we all react differently.

My children have been immune to sexual abuse. I feel very fortunate and don't wish the experience on anyone.

Edited to add: John, some members may find your reaction to abuse a little nonchalant and foreign.

IMHO, I think this is because you have focused on the positive outcome. You haven't shared the turmoil you may have experienced knowing your children were victimized. What's your secret? What's your advice?

[Jeff_Ricks]

So Jeff,you are an administrator and you find my comments disturbing? Funny that you would while others don't. But, let me clarify something. I have had experiences with these abuse issues in my own family. Both of my daughters have been sexually abused. My oldest was fondled, many times, by one of my younger brothers,( as where 3 of another of my brothers young daughters) when she was a child between 3 and 5 years old. Although my Mormon family knew that the abuse was going on they did nothing and would not tell me for fear I would kill my brother! Try living with that!! My brother admitted he stopped fondling my daughter when he knew that I knew. She was also rapped by a friend when she was in junior high. Again she did not tell anyone, partly out of shame and partly because she thought I would kill the guy. There it is again! My youngest daughter was rapped by a friend of a friend when she was 11. What bothered me most was the way my brothers case was handled, not only by my Mormon family but also by the law. My brother was promised that he would be given help if he came clean, that they would send him to a facility that would counsel him and help him through his problem. But the Mormon judge decide to make an example of him by throwing the book at him and sentenced him to more time in state prison than a recent convicted killer had received! Now I know my brother, he had received a brain injury in a farming accident when he was 11 or 12 and that is pretty much where his social and emotional development stopped and about all he had done to these little girls was the touchy feely thing! Then there was the way the little girls were treated. They were made to feel ashamed and dirty as if they had done something really bad. My brothers 4 year old had to be put on suicide watch for h*## sakes! Even though our daughters had a terrible thing happen to them we were determined that they would not carry the stigma of VICTIM with them for the rest of their lives. We let them know that what had happened to them was something out of their control and that any sexual arousal they may have experience was natural and not dirty and did not make them party to the bad thing that had happened to them. My brother and I have maintained this open and honest attitude, about sex, with our children and these girls are now adult women, some with families of their own, and they all have healthy attitudes about sex and what happened to them. They are not victims and they will tell you that! So Jeff, if you are still disturbed let me enlighten you son; someday soon life and time will bring to your door matters much more grave than this and you will forget this little debate, we had in this forum, and the fact that you were disturbed.
John


John, I apologize. I'm not qualified to join in this thread because my only experience with the abuse issue is indirect experience. I'm not aware of any instances of sexual abuse in my family, including the family I grew up in. I'll also include cousins, aunts, uncles etc. My experience with this issue began when I started meeting former Mormons and learned of case after case where women (primarily) have been abused in "good" Mormon families, by “good” Mormon people who get off scott free because families and church leaders tend to side with the perpetrator and not the victim. They tend to, I’m not talking in all cases. Couple that with the fact that a dear friend of mine, Lanny Monson, lost a teenage daughter to suicide the was brought on by sexual abuse she experienced when she was younger. She was about the age my daughter is now when she took her life, so in that respect the issue hits home for me. I do get perhaps a bit too emotional when I find someone advocating more compassion, less judgement and less punishment for the perpetrator because my friends loss was due to the bishop having such "compassion" for a perpetrator and placing him (a known child molester) in the home of my friend who had young children at the time – and this completely without my friend's knowledge of this abuser’s past. So, please understand why I tend to side with the victim, not the perpetrator. By the way, Lanny has posted his story here. I don't think it was easy for him to have to relive the experience when he wrote it:

http://www.post-mormons.com/empathy.htm

Also understand that the Administrator title under my name is assigned by the forum software we use. I have that title because I have the passwords that allow me access to the files used by the forum software. The title means nothing more than that. There are certainly others who are far more qualified than I am to comment on this issue. My posts on this subject represent only me with my limited experience and do not in anyway represent the community or organization as a whole. I think I’ll not post anymore in this thread. I’ll leave it to those more qualified and those with direct experience to respond.

Jeff

[bigeddy]

After I wrote my previous post (and was late for work---again) I thought about it a lot and decided to go out on a limb.

I believe, as I wrote earlier today, that if we are not clear which problem we are addressing, we often see all the energy dissapated, emotional turmoil ensue and no problems solved. I do not want to see that happen in/with this community. You all have impressed me so much and I want to contribute to solving problems.

Sooooo, I am going to start 3 new threads that will address the different problems involved in this issue. (Maybe a bit presumptious by me, but I am a member of this community so, why not give it a try.) Then, a person can participate in any of the 3 discussions while being more fully aware of which problem we are addressing. I now switch channels.

Ed

[mutleydog]

After I wrote my previous post (and was late for work---again) I thought about it a lot and decided to go out on a limb.

I believe, as I wrote earlier today, that if we are not clear which problem we are addressing, we often see all the energy dissapated, emotional turmoil ensue and no problems solved. I do not want to see that happen in/with this community. You all have impressed me so much and I want to contribute to solving problems.

Sooooo, I am going to start 3 new threads that will address the different problems involved in this issue. (Maybe a bit presumptious by me, but I am a member of this community so, why not give it a try.) Then, a person can participate in any of the 3 discussions while being more fully aware of which problem we are addressing. I now switch channels.

Ed

I think that is a great idea Ed! Thank you! :)

[square_peg]

John, I apologize. I'm not qualified to join in this thread because my only experience with the abuse issue is indirect experience. I'm not aware of any instances of sexual abuse in my family, including the family I grew up in. I think I’ll not post anymore in this thread. I’ll leave it to those more qualified and those with direct experience to respond.

Jeff

Jeff,
Sometimes it is difficult to decipher the tone, and thus the true message, of people's comments via e-mail. Are you apologizing in sincerity (or maybe sarcasm?) You've got to use the little faces to help clarify for those of us who have a hard time distinguishing the difference! :)

I hope you are not saying that (as individuals) we do not have a legitimate voice on a topic, just because we may not have experienced the EXACT same issue, in the EXACT same way. Personally, I believe ANY ONE has a very important stake in having discussions like these. And your feelings about the problems and solutions of abuse are just as important as mine OR the next guys...

Noelle

[mutleydog]

By the way, Lanny has posted his story here. I don't think it was easy for him to have to relive the experience when he wrote it:

http://www.post-mormons.com/empathy.htm


Jeff

Thanks for posing the web addy. I have just come from reading it. Its a heart-wrenching story! I am still absolutely gobsmacked that the Stake President responded in such a 'cold', unsympathetic, non charitable but truly dispicable way. :mad:

[silverfox]

John, I apologize. I'm not qualified to join in this thread because my only experience with the abuse issue is indirect experience. I'm not aware of any instances of sexual abuse in my family, including the family I grew up in. I'll also include cousins, aunts, uncles etc. My experience with this issue began when I started meeting former Mormons and learned of case after case where women (primarily) have been abused in "good" Mormon families, by “good” Mormon people who get off scott free because families and church leaders tend to side with the perpetrator and not the victim. They tend to, I’m not talking in all cases. Couple that with the fact that a dear friend of mine, Lanny Monson, lost a teenage daughter to suicide the was brought on by sexual abuse she experienced when she was younger. She was about the age my daughter is now when she took her life, so in that respect the issue hits home for me. I do get perhaps a bit too emotional when I find someone advocating more compassion, less judgement and less punishment for the perpetrator because my friends loss was due to the bishop having such "compassion" for a perpetrator and placing him (a known child molester) in the home of my friend who had young children at the time – and this completely without my friend's knowledge of this abuser’s past. So, please understand why I tend to side with the victim, not the perpetrator. By the way, Lanny has posted his story here. I don't think it was easy for him to have to relive the experience when he wrote it:

http://www.post-mormons.com/empathy.htm

Also understand that the Administrator title under my name is assigned by the forum software we use. I have that title because I have the passwords that allow me access to the files used by the forum software. The title means nothing more than that. There are certainly others who are far more qualified than I am to comment on this issue. My posts on this subject represent only me with my limited experience and do not in anyway represent the community or organization as a whole. I think I’ll not post anymore in this thread. I’ll leave it to those more qualified and those with direct experience to respond.

Jeff

First, abuse can strike at any time. None of us nor our children are completely safe from it. I am not a therapist, but I am a mom and I have some strong feelings regarding this topic as do others. So, IMHO thast qualifies us to respond whether we consider ourselves qualified or not.

Second, thanks for sharing your story. Even when one isn't a direct victim, one is always impacted by the stories of others. Again that qualifies us.

I appreciate your honesty.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff,
Sometimes it is difficult to decipher the tone, and thus the true message, of people's comments via e-mail. Are you apologizing in sincerity (or maybe sarcasm?) You've got to use the little faces to help clarify for those of us who have a hard time distinguishing the difference! :)

I hope you are not saying that (as individuals) we do not have a legitimate voice on a topic, just because we may not have experienced the EXACT same issue, in the EXACT same way. Personally, I believe ANY ONE has a very important stake in having discussions like these. And your feelings about the problems and solutions of abuse are just as important as mine OR the next guys...

Noelle


Thanks Noelle. I meant it as a sincere apology. I don't have enough direct experience with this issue to participate, and certainly not enough to pass judgement on anyone. So I'll follow the thread (I like Ed's approach of breaking it out into three threads) but I'll probably just observe and learn. :)

Jeff

[shamdiel]

So, here, John, is where I think you can bring to the table an opportunity of understanding for us. You have been generous in sharing your experience as an abuser. And I want to learn from that. You hint at being a victim yourself. What should we, as citizens do to help abusers? And victims?

And opening it up to everyone here - for victims or parents of victims, friends of victims, etc....how do you feel the system failed you? Or helped you?

And John in your situation, how did the system fail you? Or help you?

Silverfox, what I said to Jeff was not meant as a personal attack either. What was meant was that these discussions are just people sharing thoughts. Some have personal experience with the subject matter some are just opinions. That is all well and good as long as we agree that is what is going on. This is not life, it is a forum. Real life can smack you hard in the face and leave you reeling. It is the thing that comes to our door.
So, you want me to expose myself a little more. I sense the honesty is not being too well received! That is basically why I asked the question, "When are we no longer a Mormon." The Mormon concept of openness and honesty is often more mental masturbation than it is anything else, and I real dislike going there. I mean, do you realize that everything you have been taught and everything you believe to be true , even down to the core of what is right and what is wrong has been hand down to you by your parents and filtered through the manipulations and brainwashing techniques of the Mormon Church?
But I have also seen that there are some real thinkers here and they make it interesting. Either way everyone's willingness to discuss things, pro and con, is refreshing. So let's see what happens.
Mind you all, this is my experience and by no means does it explain all that happens. Neither is it an attempt to excuse anyone for their wrong doing or reason them away.
By definition I was first sexually abused by my older sister when I was 6 and she was 10. The truth is, I had no idea I was being abused. I just thought we were just playing a really interesting game. I was interested in the difference between me and my sister and her willingness to show me and teach me did not smack of abuse. Guess how I found out I was being abused? Our parents caught us and we got spanked and lectured, and that is where I found out that I was being abused and hurt and taken advantage of, and if I went along with it I was bad and was sinning and God would be upset. Well this little game didn't end just because we got caught. I would say 50% of the time when mom and dad would leave, our playing would turn to nasty games (our parents told us that was what it was, so that's what we called it). As younger children got older they wanted to play too. Often times it would be one of them that said, "Let's play nasty games" I guess now I was becoming the abuser? Right? Wrong! These were just games and no one was been forced. Even when we were getting into our teen years it was still consensual but, it would be called abuse by today's standard. This pattern never stopped in my family, and there were twelve of us, all were made to feel dirty and guilty of sin because of it. I got out of it when I was finally scared enough that I might commit the sin that was equal to murder, intercourse, and settled for masturbation, a little less grievous sin! Now what I consider to be the real abuse is that our parents were never honest with us and tried to scare to bajeesus out of us with sin and if that didn't work the belt or razor strap. I was the oldest son so I was expected to lead out and be the perfect example for my younger siblings. I cannot tell you the number of times I was beat into submission, all for my own good, to satisfy mom or dads idea of what I should be doing. Instead of encouraging me to free thought and independence I was been forced down into submission to a church and it's doctrine. I was even forced to go on a mission. (Don't get me wrong here, I loved my parents and believed that they loved me and that what they were doing was only to help me. I even came to believe in the church. Only after leaving the church and with much retrospect was I able to see the dynamics that I was caught in.) I wanted to be with girls my own age and experience the things other boys my age were experiencing but, because of this dynamic my self esteem was shot and I couldn't talk to girls. Besides that it would be a sin as bad as murder to go into the back seat of a Chevy with one of them! So, you find yourself staring at a girl toddler when her diaper is being changed. Exploration there would be safe, After all little girls can't tell anyone; "Holy sh*# I am sick and perverted." Unhu, and with no adults that will help you or be honest with you. The only relief you can find and have become addicted to is masturbation. Every time an adult or church leader finds out about that you have another whole heaping of guilt piled on top of you. I was lucky though I was able to make it all the way to being married with just the touchy felly thing and masturbation on my rap sheet. I was saved! I could finally have sex and not be guilty of a sin. I could quit the heinous masturbation, I was free to explore my sexuality with a woman! Right!!! Wrong!!! I married a Mormon girl, in the temple no less. Boy was I ever wrong! Might as well married to a refrigerator! What a crock, to honestly believe that sex was all the sudden going to be everything you expected when you were both still virgins and had been taught to abhor sex all your lives! What's worse you just about get things going like a little oral sex or not putting your garments back on right after and poof she comes home from Relief Society and out come the words, " I don't think we should be doing that any more. The Bishop said...." So much for being able to give up masturbation!! And you are still extremely sexually frustrated! You cant explore with other women even when they act interested, that would be adultery and that would guarantee your seat on the bus to Hell!. Then your own daughters come along and the oldest start to change and she really looks cute, " Wonder what she look like now that she is filling out. Maybe it would be safe to go... Oh God I am still a pervert!" This is were I was when I said I could have been an abuser. All hypothetical now because I did not go there. We were out of the church by then and with many heart to hearts with my wife and a bother and sister-in-law, who had also left the church, we went exploring with consenting adults of our own age. All I had ever wanted all along!!

[silverfox]

Thanks Noelle. I meant it as a sincere apology. I don't have enough direct experience with this issue to participate, and certainly not enough to pass judgement on anyone. So I'll follow the thread (I like Ed's approach of breaking it out into three threads) but I'll probably just observe and learn. :)

Jeff

Noelle is right. Your opinion and feelings and reactions are valid and are important and do matter!!!! And I hope you don't stay away. This is what happens time and time again, we think our opinions and voices don't count when they are so deeply needed whether we agree or not. Because one day it could be our child or our grandchild or our niece or nephew.

[shamdiel]

Thank you Jeff; I consider your gesture very gracious, but have to agree with Silverfox and Noel. You have added a lot to this and other threads. Everyones opinion must be valued or no ones should be. You are alive your thoughts count, period!

[Jeff_Ricks]

Thank you Jeff; I consider your gesture very gracious, but have to agree with Silverfox and Noel. You have added a lot to this and other threads. Everyones opinion must be valued or no ones should be. You are alive your thoughts count, period!


Thank you John.

[nikki]

That is a wonderful thought you had to run three seperate posts! Sorry you were late for work again.

I missed the thread this afternoon, I was taking a test at school, but I found the posts very good, and informative.

Abuse can be in a family for generations, ending the cycle takes a courageous family member, good support and assistance. You are kind Eddy to offer sharing some knowlege on the issue.

Families and parents who do not have this pattern of abuse in their families will act protective and be protective, which is the way a 'normal' family and parent should be.

The LDS Church is not effective in how they handle abuse cases either, in any of the church facilities.

Eddy, if you do not mind, could I e-mail you? I have been looking for a book on a topic, and have been unable to find what I am needing. I have read some wonderful books in my search, and have bought 1/2 of the Boarders store! However, I am not sure I can afford the other 1/2 of the store in my quest. :)

Maybe, you would know one on the topic.

[lsands]

Not many people would have the courage to express themselves that you have showed here. I am glad that, at the end, you were able to find the opportunity for sexual exploration and expression that you needed.

[Born Free]

I have worked closely with a psychologist who specialised in this area for years. I learnt a great deal from our conversations, and as a result have come to observe public discourses around this subject much more closely.

I was heartened to see Ed's contribution of some real data on treatment effect for sexual offending. I was under the impression it was over 80%, so the important issue is that this hurtful issue can be treated. Someone above mentioned a case where frontal lobe damage may have been involved, and that fits into anotehr category. Our uniquely human facilties reside in that part of the brain, including many of the healthy inhibitory facilities to override powerful primal urges from the older brain.

Sadly, it is my understanding that the treatment rate in the US is about the same as here in Australia - in that only about 30% of incarcerated offenders get proper treatment.

As if that is not problematic enough, follow through this logic, which is based upon some recent data here in Australia.

Only about 30% of victims report to authorities.
Of that 30%, the Crown (here - State for you) only figures they have solid enough case to make laying a charge reasonably viable in about 50% - so we are back to 15%.
Of those they only get a successful conviction in about 20% of cases - or about 3%.

Now in any facet of life that is regarded as important, would be settle for a 3% success rate? That is an appauling achievement, particularly when you overlay that with the figure of only 30% of those receiving proper treatment. You will see that gets us back to 1%.

If we are serious as a community about fixing this problem, we MUST find a more proactive way, because a success rate of 1% is like putting fertilizer on the problem.

BTW, I would be delighted for Ed to clarify those numbers, but as you can see, they will need to be shifted massively for the basic point about an inept response, to shift.

Daryl

[silverfox]

Real life can smack you hard in the face and leave you reeling. It is the thing that comes to our door.
So, you want me to expose myself a little more. I sense the honesty is not being too well received!

IMHO, I feel the honesty may not have been too well received by some members because there were missing pieces which made it difficult for some to get a big clear picture.

You've endured some challenging times in your life. I also grew up in a violent environment. I know well what that can do to a child's spirit.

Thanks for your honesty. I know a lot of members are learning from your painful experiences.