When are you no longer Mormon?

[shamdiel]

I have noticed something that I think is very curious. A friend of mine pointed this out to me a short time after we both had been exed from the church. He said, "You can take the Mormon out of the church but you can't take the church out of the Mormon." I hadn't really paid much attention to that possibility before but started to observe, a little closer, after he brought that to my attention. Some still wont cuss or drink coffee or go to a bar for a beer and still hold a dim view of those that do. Some immediately start searching for another organization, like the church, to align themselves with. Some are just as conservative as ever and still support major issues pretty much the same way they did when they were members of the church. About all that changes is they don't go to church anymore. Seems to me that once you discover that you have been duped, by the church, all the principles that they taught you would be suspect too. Any body else noticed this behavior?

[peter_mary]

I have noticed something that I think is very curious. A friend of mine pointed this out to me a short time after we both had been exed from the church. He said, "You can take the Mormon out of the church but you can't take the church out of the Mormon." I hadn't really paid much attention to that possibility before but started to observe, a little closer, after he brought that to my attention. Some still wont cuss or drink coffee or go to a bar for a beer and still hold a dim view of those that do. Some immediately start searching for another organization, like the church, to align themselves with. Some are just as conservative as ever and still support major issues pretty much the same way they did when they were members of the church. About all that changes is they don't go to church anymore. Seems to me that once you discover that you have been duped, by the church, all the principles that they taught you would be suspect too. Any body else noticed this behavior?

I've heard TBMs talk about their Mormonism like their Americanism...it is their heritage, it's what binds them to their people, their families, their sense of identity...even when they reject the Church itself.

But many people ONLY left the Church because they came to discover that its history showed it to be a boy's club instead of God's club, or some other "show-stopper" reason. And even though the Church doesn't have the corner on the market when it comes to teaching honesty, integrity, hard work, education, self-sufficiency, etc, still, that is the environment in which they learned those principles...and they may still cling to those principles. So even though the Plan of Salvation and modern revelation and the resotration of the gospel and the priesthood and all of that stuff collapses for them, they still are fundamentally the same people. Their sense of moral responsibility is still the same. Even their political alignment is often still the same (though that wasn't the case at our house!), because they are fundamentally the same people...except they no longer look to the Church to be the CONTEXT for that identity.

In SOME ways, it might actually be an illusion to those who stay in, and even those who leave, that the former mormons may be exhibiting "Mormonesque" attributes. That might actually be more a function of the perspective of the viewer than the viewee, because the viewer may still be operating from the paradigm that goodness in character is a product of Church upbringing. When in fact, MOST families in and out of the Church are striving to instill in their children the characteristics of goodness. We hear this kind of language all the time from members: "They're such good people, it's almost like they're members of the Church!"

The part of your question I find especially interesting is the tendency for people to need to talk about their Mormon experiences, often for YEARS after they left. I think I've heard people on this board say they left as much as 25 or more years ago, and yet there is still much interest in talking, processing, examining and healing. It probably speaks to the depth to which the Mormon experience invades every aspect of your being, possibly more so than some other religious organizations. The deeper the root, the larger the hole that is left when the tree topples!

For me, I view the Church, it's history, it's current evolution, it's politics, etc. almost like a hobby. I so very much valued the experience of being immersed in a culture and then coming out of that culture that I want to be sure and glean as much personal insight as I possibly can. Subsequently, here I am! I'm as guilty as the next guy for "leaving the church, but not leaving it alone!" :p

Paul

[tjohnson]

I have noticed something that I think is very curious. A friend of mine pointed this out to me a short time after we both had been exed from the church. He said, "You can take the Mormon out of the church but you can't take the church out of the Mormon." I hadn't really paid much attention to that possibility before but started to observe, a little closer, after he brought that to my attention. Some still wont cuss or drink coffee or go to a bar for a beer and still hold a dim view of those that do. Some immediately start searching for another organization, like the church, to align themselves with. Some are just as conservative as ever and still support major issues pretty much the same way they did when they were members of the church. About all that changes is they don't go to church anymore. Seems to me that once you discover that you have been duped, by the church, all the principles that they taught you would be suspect too. Any body else noticed this behavior?

I think it comes back to the "brainwashing" that takes place starting at a VERY early age (3-4 years old). So even someone that "gets out" at age 18 or 20 has been culturized for 15+ years.

Having only been away from the church for a short period, I still have thoughts about how much of my life they controlled. On a daily basis it still amazes me that I allowed such an outside force to control my thoughts, actions, words, feelings, etc. almost like a robot obeys it's programming.

Personally, I'm still in the mad/angry phase regarding the whole thing. I talk with my wife almost daily about the idea that I now believe there ARE people in the church at very high levels that do know that Joseph Smith and the BoM was a complete joke... and that they are now spending money, energy and time to try and "adapt" the church to fit the new scientific findings, without causing too much of a problem for current members. It's corporate America at it's best.

I don't honestly believe once you have been a Mormon that you can ever completely remove the stains. It's like they say: Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Even if they don't drink, the pressure and urges are there until you die. You simply must find new ways to cope with those thoughts and urges (like not going to the bar or not going to church, etc.).

Hopefully this forum can provide new ideas and ways to cope with those thoughts and feeling so we can all move on to a better, "free to choose" life. :D

[silverfox]

You know, I wanted to abandon Mo'ism all together and I nearly did. But I have a hubby who walks a thin line between which way should he go and I have a TBM DD who is married. My inlaws are also very Mo. I live in Utard and it is shoved down my throat almost everywhere I go. Just tonight the paper girl asked if I knew Sister so and so and Bishop so and so. It's common for everyone to think everyone is Mo. I told her I didn't know...I wasn't a Mormon. I even said, What's a bishop? I really want to distance myself.

But on the other hand I know how comforting it was to find exmo boards online and I gained a lot of knowledge and support. Without that I would still be sitting in sacrament meetins begrudgingly almost every Sunday wanting to puke from revoltion. Attending mostly out of guilt.

The amazing thing is my family is so much happier now that we don't attend. My voting habits haven't changed...I've only voted Republican once my whole life anyway. I have a couple drinks now and then when socializing. I don't care for bars but I love live music. I don't smoke although hubby has picked up the habit of chewing once every couple days.

Of course many a Mo would think we became inactive so we could indulge ourselves in these evils. But that has nothing to do with it. Although I never drank when I was active, I've never thought there was anything wrong with anything as long as it was done in moderation. That includes green jello. :)

But I wasn't BIC. I know that can make a difference.

[noodle]

I think that becoming NoMo is a process. At least it was for me. I joined in my late 20s, left in my early 40s. There were things that I never fully accepted, but it was OK in my mind. I grew up Episcopalian, and somehow I thought it was OK not to accept everything as gospel. Anyhoo, it became more and more evident that it wasn't as OK as I would have hoped. I never liked Sacrament meeting, especially testimony meetings. There were so many times that I wanted to run out screaming. I became a total bitch on Sundays. Eventually I quit going to sacrament meeting. Around the same time, I went through a period of depression, and did some soul searching as well as some medication and therapy. ;)
Funny thing, it gave me the strength to LEAVE! It was liberating, and a HUGE weight off my shoulders. I quit wearing my holy g's, and never looked back. Every now and then, we have missionaries show up (especially after our son left for a mission), but we politely dismiss them. My husband once invited them to come back to dinner, but said that we weren't at all interested in talking religion. Funny, they never came for that dinner. :rolleyes:

[Born Free]

I think that becoming NoMo is a process. At least it was for me. I joined in my late 20s, left in my early 40s. There were things that I never fully accepted, but it was OK in my mind. I grew up Episcopalian, and somehow I thought it was OK not to accept everything as gospel. Anyhoo, it became more and more evident that it wasn't as OK as I would have hoped. I never liked Sacrament meeting, especially testimony meetings. There were so many times that I wanted to run out screaming. I became a total bitch on Sundays. Eventually I quit going to sacrament meeting. Around the same time, I went through a period of depression, and did some soul searching as well as some medication and therapy. ;)
Funny thing, it gave me the strength to LEAVE! It was liberating, and a HUGE weight off my shoulders. I quit wearing my holy g's, and never looked back. Every now and then, we have missionaries show up (especially after our son left for a mission), but we politely dismiss them. My husband once invited them to come back to dinner, but said that we weren't at all interested in talking religion. Funny, they never came for that dinner. :rolleyes:

I thought this an interesting thread, and wrestled a bit with the question. It was valuable as it helps clarify my thinking, as many issues on this site do.

I am 'heady', so surprise, surprise, came up with an analytical model.

I started with the facets of my life that MOism shaped heavily:

The meaning of my Life and teh Universe (no less!)
How I interpret the experiences I have and seek in life.
What I aspire to
What shape might my personal relationships take - spouse, children, parents, siblings.
How I relate to my body, mind and spirit.
How I feel, believe and act in those two really core aspects of self - sexuality and spirituality
What I regard moral behaviour and whether that come out of me, or into me?

THat is a good start, but I am sure I will expand upon it.

Then I looked at how Moism would have me behave in each area, and then compared that with what I now believe in each area. In most cases there was a significant gap. Then I looked at my comfort level with the gap; was I was anxious about it, to check whether I felt I was still 'looking over my shoulder", as it were.

It seems to me that when there is a high level of comfort, even joy, with the gap, then one could say they had arrived at a state of being beyond Moism.

The statement "You can take the Mormon out of the church but you can't take the church out of the Mormon" assumes a lot. I believe that Moism is much more than where one spends Sundays, etc. For me it is a way of perceiving the world and one's place in it, so if those things don't shift, I would agree that the Church has not been removed.

However, if the person pulls away all the stoppers that have damned their emotional, spiritual and ethical development, then they can progress quite rapidly way beyond a Moron mindset, and once that shift consolidates, then I believe that "you CAN take the Church out of the Mormon". Now I don't want to trivialize how extremely Moism #ucks with peoples' heads, but that is just more reason to rectify the problems ASAP, and redefine those key aspect of functioning.

That's my 2 cents worth!

Daryl

[shamdiel]

However, if the person pulls away all the stoppers that have damned their emotional, spiritual and ethical development, then they can progress quite rapidly way beyond a Moron mindset, and once that shift consolidates, then I believe that "you CAN take the Church out of the Mormon". Now I don't want to trivialize how extremely Moism #ucks with peoples' heads, but that is just more reason to rectify the problems ASAP, and redefine those key aspect of functioning.

That's my 2 cents worth!

Daryl
You make some very good points, Daryl, but isn't this a lot of what pulls people back? As you mentioned elsewhere in your text, people have comfort zones. Many times, their comfort zone does not extend to pulling out all the stops. They may have been uncomfortable going to sacrament meeting, as Silverfox explained, or wearing garments, or paying tithing; but to introspect every aspect of what they believe and/or know to be true, may go way beyond their comfort zone.
For example, I may be very comfortable in leaving the authoritarian confines of the church, reclaiming my sundays, 10% of my earnings, and even chosing my own underwear. But to question whether or not my belief in Christ and God are actually my own or something I inherited from Family/Church, I may not be comfortable with. As has been mentioned by many others in this forum, our very core beliefs, every aspect of our lives, has been touched and shaped by mormon theology. But to really dig in deep, to examine it all, is not so easy to do, and I have observed that many people, in and out of the church see no need to. They just adjust a few of their beliefs and some of their attitudes. I like to call TBMs surface dwellers, because it is as if they sit in a row boat with oars they have no control of, (ie., paddled by the Church Authorities), on a wide body of water, and they look around and think they see everything and know everything, in their unguided position. Just like the metaphor of throwing a rock into the water, to see that it sinks and not floats like the piece of wood does, they never stick their head under the water to see that there is a vastness of undiscovered territory that they didn't know existed, and neither are they interested to know. To me only by discovering that there is a vastness of undiscovered territory underneath your boat, does one gain the insight that there is a need to wrest the paddles away from the Church authorities, and direct the boat for yourself. But then again, how many people would ever be comfortable with sticking their head under the water to see what is under the boat? What we've been taught is that if we look under the boat, we will be swept away into an eternal abyss, devoured by the devil, who is just waiting for us. THe CAs have been very clever to create this fear in all its members. Obviously, most MOMOs are not capable of taking that glimpse under the boat, even for the sake of their own minds. So much for the Glory of God is Intelligence. I use the metaphor of surface dweller and a deep lake because it is like unto the depths of your own soul. It is impossible to examine the depths of your own soul when you allow church authorities the power to define for you every important spiritual aspect of your life. But we have to accept the fact that there are people who are more comfortable having these things decided for them than to take the terrifying step jumping out of the boat into the abyss, the dark unknown. But as all of you have said, the person who actually does it, wind up landing on their feet, and accepting more responsibilitiy for their own actions; seeing more possibilities for their own understanding than ever they thought.
So I guess the question is how do we help ourselves, and maybe others, expand the comfort zone to where we can absolutely plumb the depths of our own soul, and completely empty our cup and allow it to be filled up with that which is real and is true, rather than what has been defined FOR us by our families and CAs, or any authorities for that matter. What comes to mind: "That which is evil will be called good, and that which is good will be called evil."

John

[dragonreborn]

I have been inactive for quite a while. I come from 3 generations of Mormons. I have served a mission and have got married in the temple. My wife and I are now going through the process of removing our names from the Mormon list. As we went through this process, it scared me a bit. I wanted to get my name off, as I did not believe in it anymore. At the same time this has been so integrated in my life, that it almost seemed like cutting off an arm or a leg. It flet strange. it is one thing to be inactive,it is another thing to be an ex-member. My parents and siblings are all very active and they are making it their personal mission to save me from sin. This is one reason,I am getting my name removed, so they know I am serious about it. It just feels wierd :eek: