Litmus Test

[halfin_halfout]

On Sunday, I attended church with my family as we normally do. I felt a little different inside, probably due to the stirring discussion that my wife and I had the night before concerning my beliefs. The discussion resulted in me continuing to play along with this church stuff. Everything felt a bit different than my typical reaction to the dogma that I am carelessly buried in each week. I had a few moments where I felt some type of warmth toward the church, so I quietly prayed and asked God if maybe this church was true after all and I was deceived. My heart started to pounder and I felt warm all over. I thought, "what if this is God trying to build my faith from this mustard seed?" I thought that I had this faith issue figured out, but I found that I was doubting my doubts a that moment. I thought of one way to figure out if this really the spirit testifying. Teachings say that the spirit is easily offended. I pictured the most graphic, dirty thing in my head that I could. I then cycled my prayer and offensive visual in my head back and forth. Trust me, this visual would have scared off the "holy ghost" as I always understood. The pounding sensation continued through the focus on the imagined dirty visual. I concluded that I must have produced the feelings, because the HG wouldn't go anywhere near that picture. I know this is a lousy litmus test, but I can't think of anything better.

The more that I distance myself from church, the more that the warmth turns into coldness for the church. If I can get away from church for a couple of weeks and just do objective research, my heart really wonders far from it. I start to think about how fabricated the church looks and how great it would be to leave and never return.

Does anyone else have a different litmus test for sensing "divine" communication?

Thanks,
Half

[peter_mary]

Does anyone else have a different litmus test for sensing "divine" communication?

Thanks,
Half
Put on David Lanz's "Cristofori's Dream," turn up the volume, and close your eyes.

Or Alasdair Fraser's "Lament for Hetch Hetchy," when the violin soars near the end...

If you don't get that same warm feeling, you aren't human...

Maybe that isn't a litmus test, but it certainly can be instructive.

[free thinker]

I follow a combination of head and heart. A quick example using Joseph Smith.

When I found out he had sex with a fourteen year old girl my HEART revolted. I said no way in hell a man devoted to a loving, caring, god, would ever act like that.

Then when I realized all the other things he did to garner and keep power, money, and women, my HEAD said Fraud!!


For now that is how I proceed in life.

ft

[Jeff_Ricks]

Put on David Lanz's "Cristofori's Dream," turn up the volume, and close your eyes.

Or Alasdair Fraser's "Lament for Hetch Hetchy," when the violin soars near the end...

If you don't get that same warm feeling, you aren't human...

Maybe that isn't a litmus test, but it certainly can be instructive.I agree with what I think Peter_Mary is alluding to. How many times have you been watching a movie and were so overwhelmed that tears came to your eyes, then a few minutes later you were laughing? Feelings are so easily manipulated. My advice is use you head, think things through, gather data, weigh the odds, and then make your decisions. In my experience doing that works a LOT better than when I was a Mormon trusting in my feelings. When I was given my patriarchal blessing the patriarch said that I will, "make quick decisions and my first impressions will generally be right." Worst damned advice I was ever given in my life! I'm still climbing out of the hole that bad advice got me into!

Never mind what Ob-Wan Kenobe (or Joseph Smith) says, don't trust your feelings. Feelings can easily mislead you.

Jeff

[fh451]

I thought of one way to figure out if this really the spirit testifying. Teachings say that the spirit is easily offended. I pictured the most graphic, dirty thing in my head that I could. I then cycled my prayer and offensive visual in my head back and forth. Trust me, this visual would have scared off the "holy ghost" as I always understood. The pounding sensation continued through the focus on the imagined dirty visual. I concluded that I must have produced the feelings, because the HG wouldn't go anywhere near that picture. I know this is a lousy litmus test, but I can't think of anything better.

That was funny! I remember when I was about 14 and tried something similar on a temple baptisms-for-the-dead trip. I had been told that Satan could not tempt you inside the temple. I had also been taught that evil or dirty thoughts were put into your mind by Satan. But about 30 seconds of experimentation was enough to convince me that one of these teachings must be full of crap. Either that or I had been so thoroughly corrputed that Satan wasn't even necessary anymore. It took quite a few more years before I finally figured out that Satan and the Bogeyman were equal metaphors, and the temple had no special "Satan Shield" around it.

Bob

[halfin_halfout]

That was funny! I remember when I was about 14 and tried something similar on a temple baptisms-for-the-dead trip. I had been told that Satan could not tempt you inside the temple. I had also been taught that evil or dirty thoughts were put into your mind by Satan. But about 30 seconds of experimentation was enough to convince me that one of these teachings must be full of crap. Either that or I had been so thoroughly corrputed that Satan wasn't even necessary anymore. It took quite a few more years before I finally figured out that Satan and the Bogeyman were equal metaphors, and the temple had no special "Satan Shield" around it.

Bob

I also have had nasty thoughts that would not relent within the temple walls. I've always been hard on myself for letting this happen because I knew that the evil spirits weren't allowed in there. This implied that those thoughts came from evil-me. The more that I would try not to think about them, the more that they were compelled to enter my mind (kinda like when something embarrassing happens to someone else and you can't stop laughing). These thoughts really come out of nowhere too -somewhere like the name booth. Maybe I could see if the lady taking part in the witness couple had a really nice fanny :D I always had a hard time differentiating these thoughts from the satan generated ones, other than I get to blame the other ones on the devil. Bad devil, bad! :)

[free thinker]

Maybe I could see if the lady taking part in the witness couple had a really nice fanny I always had a hard time differentiating these thoughts from the satan generated ones, other than I get to blame the other ones on the devil. Bad devil, bad!

It's not your fault. The ladies only have to veil their faces. Fannies are in full veiw.

ft

[flotsam]

ek. I had a few moments where I felt some type of warmth toward the church, so I quietly prayed and asked God if maybe this church was true after all and I was deceived. My heart started to pounder and I felt warm all over. I thought, "what if this is God trying to build my faith from this mustard seed?"


I don't know what so bad about thinking the Church is good in some ways. Of course the Church is good in some ways. It's also been your spiritual home for a long time. You have feelings for it. That's OK in my book. The Spirit is perfectly justified in turning on the space heater in your chest to say the Church is nice place full of nice people.

But the problems arise when someone tries to convince that that one feeling starts a chain reaction that ends up proving everything about the Church, and thus getting you over a barrel. I can appreciate the warmth of the sun without becoming a Ra worshiper.


I thought of one way to figure out if this really the spirit testifying. Teachings say that the spirit is easily offended.

I take offense :D to this teaching. The Spirit (if he, she, it exists the way Mormons talk about it/her/him) isn't some kind of corsetted Victorian temperance missionary. As far as I've been able to see, people say that the Spirit gets offended to validate their own preferences.

So an image, in and of itself, isn't evil. It depends on what the context is. What it's being used for. I've seen some awful images, but usually in an artistic and skillfully crafted context. If the Spirit is all people say it is, I have the feeling that it's a lot more cosmopolitan, and about-the-town. Otherwise, how could it do its job?

So, I think your limitus test would only work to back up previously held notions that you didn't want to let go of.

My limitus test at the moment is to find out if the idea works for me. I'm very utilitarian that way. I spent way too long trying to apply ideas that didn't work for me. It was terrible.

[peter_mary]

I take offense :D to this teaching. The Spirit (if he, she, it exists the way Mormons talk about it/her/him) isn't some kind of corsetted Victorian temperance missionary. As far as I've been able to see, people say that the Spirit gets offended to validate their own preferences.

So an image, in and of itself, isn't evil. It depends on what the context is. What it's being used for. I've seen some awful images, but usually in an artistic and skillfully crafted context. If the Spirit is all people say it is, I have the feeling that it's a lot more cosmopolitan, and about-the-town. Otherwise, how could it do its job?

So, I think your limitus test would only work to back up previously held notions that you didn't want to let go of.

My limitus test at the moment is to find out if the idea works for me. I'm very utilitarian that way. I spent way too long trying to apply ideas that didn't work for me. It was terrible.
Okay, I'll take off my "there ain't no spirit" hat for a moment, and think along the lines of flotsam here for a moment. If the spirit were offended, wouldn't he/she/it be offended by sex? By defecation? By decaying bodies? By animal predation? By Turrets Syndrome? By flatulation? By dandruff? By ticks and leeches and lampreys? By the ebola virus?

Point is, "no," the Spirit would be rather accustomed to all of that since the Spirit of God would have been integral to the creation of creatures that act in such offensive ways. The Spirit would be largely undifferentiated from the Creation, would it not? And being "offended" then does seem rather Victorian and anthropomorphic rather than very divine.

Think about it...if a Temple patron is endowed (snicker) with a full set of human hormones, bestowed upon him by the God who made him, who hopes he uses those hormones to procreate, and the sister at the alter has a particularly fine fanny, my best bet is it's the Spirit that is nudging you going, "Huh!? Huh?! Not too bad, eh? We do good work, don't we?"

Seriously, imagine strapping a fine new drum to your child, and then threatening to condemn them to eternal time-out if they ever play it. Dumb, don't you think? So it is with worrying about offending the Spirit, in my opinion. I don't worry about offending the universe, but I DO worry about offending myself. The universe is quite capable of taking care of itself, and so is everybody else in it. My actions or thoughts are hardly enough to be of concern to the billions and billions of life forms across time and space, or to the universe/god/spirit itself. But my thoughts and actions are a BIG concern to me, 'cause they are gonna impact me in a big way.

I can appreciate a nice fanny. No offense there for me. But I get rather offended when I sense a biggoted or narrow thought slouching it's way through my brain. I can laugh at somebody's fart, even in church, but I get pretty stressed out if I lash out at one of my kids. That's offensive to ME, and that's what I worry about, and work on.

But the Spirit? Hell, He was involved in making sphincters just right to ensure a hilarious noise at the most inoportune times...He's not offended by the fart in church, either!

[wileycoyote]

On Sunday, I attended church with my family as we normally do. I felt a little different inside, probably due to the stirring discussion that my wife and I had the night before concerning my beliefs. The discussion resulted in me continuing to play along with this church stuff. Everything felt a bit different than my typical reaction to the dogma that I am carelessly buried in each week. I had a few moments where I felt some type of warmth toward the church, so I quietly prayed and asked God if maybe this church was true after all and I was deceived. My heart started to pounder and I felt warm all over. I thought, "what if this is God trying to build my faith from this mustard seed?" I thought that I had this faith issue figured out, but I found that I was doubting my doubts a that moment. I thought of one way to figure out if this really the spirit testifying. Teachings say that the spirit is easily offended. I pictured the most graphic, dirty thing in my head that I could. I then cycled my prayer and offensive visual in my head back and forth. Trust me, this visual would have scared off the "holy ghost" as I always understood. The pounding sensation continued through the focus on the imagined dirty visual. I concluded that I must have produced the feelings, because the HG wouldn't go anywhere near that picture. I know this is a lousy litmus test, but I can't think of anything better.

The more that I distance myself from church, the more that the warmth turns into coldness for the church. If I can get away from church for a couple of weeks and just do objective research, my heart really wonders far from it. I start to think about how fabricated the church looks and how great it would be to leave and never return.

Does anyone else have a different litmus test for sensing "divine" communication?

Thanks,
Half

One of my first questions to my bishop when I started doubting was" How do I tell the difference between emotion and the spirit?"

He read D+C 9:8 and explained that things need to make sense in my head and in my heart.

I've known this scripture forever, but I used to think, study it out in your mind, meant to think about it a little. Now I really study things out, and that seems to work out much better.

Joseph had a quote that went something like ( false prohets teach so near the truth, as to decieve men). he was talking about other false prophets,Of course.

But to me, this is one of the keys. We're not taught crazy stuff in church. We're taught basic,good principals that pretty much all humanity agrees with and with every change the church makes, I think their percentage of "truth" get higher.( I still can't believe some of you sat through temple ordinances with penalties of cutting your throats and disemboweling you)

My friend(bish) told me he new the church was true because he new it was 95% true, and the 5% he had questions about, he could overlook.

Everybody is different. I couldn't overlook the 5% and the more I look the bigger the percentage gets.

wil

[halfin_halfout]

You guys craked me up. I'll think about your comments next time I get that special feeling. I was going to put a comment on my original post about "assuming there is a holy ghost", but I'm glad I didn't. It may have stopped some of the great posts from being written.

Another comment
They say denial of the Holy Ghost is worse than murder. This is my kind of God. This sounds like he will punish you beyond the murderers because you don't buy a church's explanation of emotion. Almost as good as God slashing your throat and belly because of your beliefs. He sounds so cuddly, I just wanna live with that God forever.

For the record, temple fannies are in pretty crummy view in the temple -especially after they are safely kept under robe. Doh! :duh
Score: Holy Ghost - 1, Half - 0

[doug_larsen]

I still regularly attend church, so my perspective is still very much tied to that life-long habit. But....

The earliest recognition I had of warm fuzzies not being tied in any way to religious constraints, was getting all thumpity about imagined scenes of sex. Anyone has experienced those, of course. And of course, the church teaches you to sing a hymn to drive them out. Heh. Never worked for me. I always undressed women in my mind. Even in the temple, and it never bothered me, because I knew it was all natural male interest and curiosity, nothing more. I would no more betray my marriage than slit my throat (Ooo! bad comparison). Really, immorality and sexual thoughts are worlds apart. I never felt guilty having sexual thoughts, and there hasn't been a substantial change in me since my attitude / perspective changes about religion.

I later came to realize that so-called spiritual witnesses and warm fuzzies are indistinguishable. That the spiritual convictions of the rest of the religious world are exactly as strong and valid as Mormon ones. Conclusion, they are induced by circumstances and desires, nothing more.

I happen to believe in spiritual reality, still, without having a clue what it actually is. Because I don't trust any dogmatic definition of "what is spirit?" Yet spirit answers many odd things that occur (we already discussed NDEs a while back).

I don't trust warm fuzzies. I really don't trust tears. I trust a calm, consistent feeling of rightness about things. If rightness remains consistent then it must be right, i.e. true. And a consistent feeling of rightness that I have always had is about my friendships. I don't really trust anyone to be anything better than good some days and lacking on other days. I believe in the good intentions of people, but expect that they will sometimes fail to come through. So I don't get bent at church over stupid things people there say or do. I enjoy being around people, maybe in particular when they ARE being assholes and cretins. They are surely more entertaining at that time than when they are being quiet!

I think we all enjoy individuals in ideal circumstances. But church is enjoyable to me because people in groups are enjoyable too.

So I don't apply a "litmus test" to truth beyond a consistent feeling of calm. If it endures, it must be true up to that stage at least.

[dogzilla]

Maybe I could see if the lady taking part in the witness couple had a really nice fanny I always had a hard time differentiating these thoughts from the satan generated ones, other than I get to blame the other ones on the devil. Bad devil, bad!

It's not your fault. The ladies only have to veil their faces. Fannies are in full veiw.

ft

LOL.

Right because we all know that men are weak and helpless and cannot control themselves. If those ladies get their fannies looked at, it's their own fault!
[/channelling BKP]

[dogzilla]

But the Spirit? Hell, He was involved in making sphincters just right to ensure a hilarious noise at the most inoportune times...He's not offended by the fart in church, either!

If He was, then he wouldn't have made those pews wooden, so the sound of a fart reverberates so nicely throughout the entire chapel. He'd have given us padding, to soak up the fart sounds. (And smells.)


:p

[halfin_halfout]

LOL.

Right because we all know that men are weak and helpless and cannot control themselves. If those ladies get their fannies looked at, it's their own fault!
[/channelling BKP]

It's not me. My lil' factory did it. :D