#2 Helping abusers who were abused

[bigeddy]

(Limb #2)

I have worked with perpetrators for nearly 20 years now and I realize the complexities of this task. The purpose of this thread could be stated as; to share information regarding why people abuse, why some who were abused do not abuse others, why some do and how to heal from the complex set of dynamics inside a victim who turns the power differential over and becomes the abuser.

I hear so much shaming stuff thrown at abusers and I know that it does not help. I have worked with many who deplore the hurt they caused others but are so caught in affective patterns and compulsions that controlling behavior is next to impossible. What to do then? How to understand what it is we seek when we secure our intimacy needs at the expense of another?

I invite members of the community to comment on the issues that contribute to abusing; lack of intimacy, lack of understanding what intimacy is, dealing with power and perceived lack of power, fear of femininity, approach/avoidance issues, passive aggression and on and on. Oh, how I wish abusing was as simple as this: A demented sub-human cretin with his dick in his hand seeks out a vulnerable victim he can abuse with as little fear of getting caught as possible. If it were this simple then being as hard as possible on offenders might help. But, in my experience, the reality is this simple in only about 4% of offenders (although they do account for a larger percenage of victims).

It would probably not help for someone who has not solved problem #1 (helping victims to heal) to participate in this discussion. It tends to leave them with the message that they cannot be angry. If that happens here, I urge everyone to hear their anger and let it be. They need to yell at us. They need to be angry so they can get fully to the pain under that anger.

Ed

[silverfox]

Big Eddy; It seems that no one wants to deal with this issue so, let me take a stab at it.

I don't think anyone is trying to avoid dealing with it...it's just that many of us don't know how. I'm not an abuser who was abused. I have no experience in this area so I am not sure I have anything to offer. So I appreciate that you have once again provided some insight.

I do however agree that there just aren't enough resources to help not only abusers but the mentally ill, the disabled, etc, etc, etc. As a society we fail many people who need our help the most.

In your experiences what kind of programs would have helped? My husband worked as a parole officer with sex offenders. There are many programs offered but I was quite shocked at how many sex offenders DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE. How do you force someone if they don't want help? Or they don't think they did anything wrong?

What are the first steps for abusers who want help and how do we deal as a society with abusers who don't want help and they only comply because they are forced to?

There seem to be so many scenarios and circumstances. Is the system offering a "one size fits all" approach and this is why it fails?

[shamdiel]

Big Eddy; It seems that no one wants to deal with this issue so, let me take a stab at it. Most of the reasons you have given for an abuser to choose their life style are valid and probably most if not all the reasons abusers give for their behavior. The key word is CHOOSE. Most people have little or no sympathy for a perp. It is based on the assumption that they (the perp) have free agency and therefore have chosen a mean and deviant lifestyle where they hurt others, without conscience. Hey did it not cross anyone's mind that this idea of free agency and choosing right and wrong was given you by your MOMO upbringing? First off agency is not free! By that I mean there are reasons why people choose what they choose. The main contributing factors are heredity and environment. Almost all reasonsfor our choices can be boiled down and placed in one of these two categories. Let me make the definition of environment clear. Environment is any knowledge that a person gains by living their life. It is not where they live. If I move a person from the slums of L.A. To the slums of Chicago I have not changed their environment. Heredity is fixed there is nothing we can do about that! And more then likely some of these behaviors have their root in genetics. But, if we accept the premise that all knowledge is environment, then we see that the perp my not have had any agency at all in the choice that they made and, that there is a way to help them. Many of Paul’s and your comments point to that fact. What is needed is new knowledge. For example; Let’s take a young man from the ghetto, his mom is a drug addicted prostitute and he has no idea who his father is. As he grows up, his day to day routine is dodging bullets and stealing or dealing drugs himself just to get food to eat. Education is out of the question, his mom is too strung out to make sure he gets to school. In time this young man is faced with the grim reality that no one cares about him or his situation and he is basically worthless. Is it any wonder, then, that this young man becomes abusive and exhibits every antisocial behavior known to man. After all no one has ever shown him any kindness or given a damn what happens to him! He will probably be sent to prison, before long, and spend the most, if not the rest, of his life behind bars. In prison, his environment will not change. It will be more of the same and chances are very slim that he would ever be rehabilitated. But what might be the out come if some kind soul sees his plight while he is in juvenile hall? They take time to visit with him and let him know that they care about him. They explain to him that they realize that he has been mean and has hurt people and he has to accept that but, there is more to him than what he has done in the past and there is a way to become more than he could have ever dreamed. They stay with the young man, by visiting him day to day, and help him achieve a GED. They go to bat for him and offer to be his guardian to get him out of jail. They make sure he has a new place to stay, outside of the ghett and a good job, to help pay for his expenses and college. Then help him find a University to attend and make sure he has the ability to pay for his education, by helping him find loans and grants. Now, is there any doubt in anyone’s mind that this young man’s environment has been changed? He just might make it, right? At least his chances are many times greater than they were!!! All because someone was willing to see the young man as a bright possibility and not the sum of all the crimes he had committed. That is why I plead for understanding and forgiveness. I believe that God, in his infinite love, would always see the persons soul, and not the wounds that have been afflicted on them (you would say crimes that they have committed) and give them all the time necessary to rise to the highest that is in them. Again being more concerned about dusting them off and healing than judgment. That is why I say; “Let me err on the side of compassion.”

So, to help the abuser who has been abused, we need to initiate some of the programs that you have alluded to to identify the abuse that the abuser himself has suffered, and how it has affected him mentally and socially. Part of the program must necessarily be to take the information gathered and design a regime that gives to the perp new information such as a knowledge of the pain that he has caused other people. A knowledge of the pain that he has suffered himself and the ability to accept both. But I believe that it is absolutely imperative that they also be given an understanding that they are greater and their possibilities are greater than they could have ever imagined; and they are not useless or worthless and it is not our desire that they be taken to a and a bullet be put in their head.

This requires that people do more than offer nice words, but are actually doers and get involved in the perp’s life to affect a positive change. As it stands now, the perps are thrown into prison with the ruse that they will get help, only to find that they are put behind bars to be forgotten by society altogether. After all, out of sight, out of mind. What this does is ensure that their environment will never change.

John

[shamdiel]

In your experiences what kind of programs would have helped? My husband worked as a parole officer with sex offenders. There are many programs offered but I was quite shocked at how many sex offenders DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE. How do you force someone if they don't want help? Or they don't think they did anything wrong?

What are the first steps for abusers who want help and how do we deal as a society with abusers who don't want help and they only comply because they are forced to?

There seem to be so many scenarios and circumstances. Is the system offering a "one size fits all" approach and this is why it fails?

I would say the programs probably don't exist right now. As Big Eddy pointed out it is hard to convince someone that a program needs to be fixed when the program is working just fine. If you accept the fact that all knowledge is environment then there is obviously missing information on the part of the perp that keeps them from accepting responsibility for hurting someone. The programs to help must be flexable enough to deal with each case as an individual. It must be identified just what knowledge the perp has picked up in his life that has brought him to make the choices that he makes. Then you can start to understand what knowledge it will take to counter the problem he has. I do not believe that all are redeemable. As I said genetics has a roll. Some people may just be too mean, and need to have forced control over others, so geneticaly programmed into them that they can never be rehalibated. But, that should not stop us from trying to identify those who can be helped. Throwing them all into one bundle and locking them up solves nothing. Why? Because almost all perps will get out of prison some day. How can we expect that they will be healed and be responsible citizens when all they were given was a hard time in prison? I have talked to many people that have been to prison and about all it does is make them harder and not afarid of being in prison! I think it was Eddy that mentioned an encounter group between the perps family and the victim's family and how it was really helpful for both. It just might help to end the cycle of passing on the abusiveness, found in famlies, to future generations... Also if using the formula of adding knowledge to the perp, to help him get to the point where he understands what happened to him and how that affected what he did to others, that he hurt others, brings him to a point where he does accept responsibility, then he can be introduced to the encounter group and be allowed to close the issue with the people he hurt and they with him. I think we do our children, and ourselves, a huge disservice in keeping this eye for an eye attutide going. What ever happened to; "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord"? When are we going to do just that and let Him take care of it. These notions of abuse and justice are kowledge that was given to us by our famlies and churches too, you know. AS Paul pointed out, when we are young all we have are a few instincts and no experience. Our first experiences come from our family. Their attutides have been shaped by their families and their religion. Therfore much of our social attitudes, pertaining to what is right and wrong, are given us by them (families and religion) and are not our own. We seldom ever question that which we learned, as core values, when we were young... See the problem? Any other ideas? John

[silverfox]

I think we do our children, and ourselves, a huge disservice in keeping this eye for an eye attutide going. What ever happened to; "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord"? When are we going to do just that and let Him take care of it. These notions of abuse and justice are kowledge that was given to us by our famlies and churches too, you know. AS Paul pointed out, when we are young all we have are a few instincts and no experience. Our first experiences come from our family. Their attutides have been shaped by their families and their religion. Therfore much of our social attitudes, pertaining to what is right and wrong, are given us by them (families and religion) and are not our own. We seldom ever question that which we learned, as core values, when we were young... See the problem? Any other ideas? John

In regard to your question what ever happened to "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord" - it's important to remember that not all people believe in a God and a judgement day. And although our laws and government are based on principles and laws of the Bible if one doesn't believe in it, what option does that leave? (not really asking, just thinking outloud) So, where does that take us by taking religion or a belief in a God out of the equation? (I want to be sure not to get into a religious debate here which is against forum rules)

I always have felt that communication is key in resolution. The type of communication used in trying to help abusers (and victims) appears of course, to be failing. I like the idea of intervention and confrontation from all parties involved. But I haven't researched this enough to throw any ideas out there.

I have an adult son who has a mental illness. He has had brushes with the law - nothing serious, theft charges. He is disabled by his illness. He takes meds long enough to get stable for a month, makes everyone feel good about him and then goes off them and ends up on the street (where he wants to be) homeless. It's heartbreaking. Jail does not offer anything to help him. His visits there are short and at times frequent. I fought hard to have his case moved to mental court but it's almost as though he is being enabled to fail. "Normal" behavior is expected from a very "abnormal" person. And the courts just end up being disappointed time and time again. How can normalcy be expected from someone who has been diagnosed three time with chronic and severe paranoid scizophrenia? He is good at manipulation, telling what you want to hear - good enough that he can manipulate the system. So he has no "consequence" but yet I don't think anyone knows what kind of consequence would work for him.

I have been mulling over the definition of sexual abuse in the first thread and it is bothersome. I haven't quite organized my thoughts on it yet. Except I fear for young innocent children being accused of something horrific as in the cases bigeddy shared with us. What damage that does! Especially in the Mormon culture where there is so much damaging negativity surrounding sex anyway.

I can see where laws are created to try to fit all scenarios under one umbrella. It's impossible.

[shamdiel]

In regard to your question what ever happened to "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord" - it's important to remember that not all people believe in a God and a judgement day. And although our laws and government are based on principles and laws of the Bible if one doesn't believe in it, what option does that leave? (not really asking, just thinking outloud) So, where does that take us by taking religion or a belief in a God out of the equation? (I want to be sure not to get into a religious debate here which is against forum rules)
This is a little off the subject but is one of the points worth making. It is true that some of our laws and government are patterned after Biblical concepts. What is interesting is that even if a US citizen doesn't believe in God or the Bible they usually do believe in our system of law and government. The problem arises from the fact that the baser harder concepts are being accepted (i.e. eye for an eye, blind and speedy justice, capital punishment...) while the kinder more progressive are absent or have been pushed aside (Love, patience, forgiveness, mercy, love...love...). Another interesting thing I have noticed is the more a person says that they believe in God and religion, the more they tend to be all for more laws, stricter interpretation of the laws, stiffer fines and penalties, longer sentencing, tougher guidelines for parole hearings, banning same sex marriage.... Again leaving out the kinder aspects of what should be a major part of their beliefs. It seems like and eye for an eye and vengeance are the focus. If America is really serious about being the bastion of liberty and human rights, to the world, then it seems to me that we shouldn't be summarily dismissing a whole section of or population by sweeping them away, into a prison system that will do little or nothing to help them or cause them to become responsible citizens! In fact it is usually the opposite. It just makes them harder and unafraid of jail time. I once heard a New York State prison warden put it best, he said; "If the current trend continues, it won't be long before we have half of the citizens of the US behind bars and the other half hired to watch them!" Not a very bright or hopeful picture! What we have is a judicial system that does not want to work themselves out of a job. If we actually came up with programs that help, like some of the things Big Eddy and Paul have mentioned, then we would see fewer and fewer people going into the prison systems and more coming out rehabilitated, ready and able to take their place in society. I guess I am a softie but, it gives me way more hope and joy to believe that people are basically good and even those that make mistakes are hurting to be given a chance to prove that they are good too! Why don't we give them that chance? Anyway, just some of what I believe. John :rolleyes:

[bigeddy]

Silverfox asked what to do when a person does not want to change. John spoke of vengeance belonging to the Lord. IMO the answer to these lies in, of all places, the Bible. There was a year when I was teaching the Old Testament and researching it like crazy and at the same time became very interested in Lawrence Kohlberg's work on moral development. I did not expect that as the year wore on the two would meld into one whole.

I wondered what the deal was with the God of the OT who was so vindictive (at the time I was still TBM) and I wondered, like many who initially studied Kohlberg, what led a person to grow from one stage of morality to another. I knew that the growth had to be of an affective nature. Cognitive growth was not the answer because it was clear we have a multitude of very intelligent liars, cheats and thieves. I was looking for answers to these things and found that they are the same.

I believe that affective knowledge comes from day-to-day experience that is internalized. We "know" things in our very feelings that we may not know in our heads. How does an affective motivation to act in a pro-social manner come about? (This is the partial answer to what to do about a perp who does not want to change.) Kohlberg learned that people progress morally as they bump into justice. Justice has become, for me, the key to moral growth. As children bump into loving justice in families; natural consequences, fairness, full results of their behaviors, empathy for siblings who are hurt by injustice, etc. they internalize a sense of moral rightness.

It suddenly made sense why the OT is the OT and the NT is the NT. The God of the OT is about justice; an eye for an eye, etc. I learned that in dealing with perpetrators, anyone actually, mercy will make no sense unless it is founded upon justice. When a person has the foundation of justice mercy can be life giving. When they do not, mercy will be manipulated by the perp and they will use it to furrther victimize. So, for those not ready to change, they need justice, strict justice. By that I do not mean cruel retribution. Say, for example, a man born in horrible circumstances, filled with anger and powerless rage, becomes a molester.
And, say, that he is not ready to make a change. He excuses his behavior, lacks empathy and lives to satisfy himself only. Such perps are out there and they are dangerous. Such a man needs justice. He needs a society to say to him, "You are choosing to be an unsafe person so, you will not be allowed to be around society." This one we need to incarcerate. But the types of incarceration we have do not administer justice, they adminster hate and fear. This will not help. Such a man as I detailed above needs a program where he will have an opportunity to face justice daily. He will need to see daily the result of his behavior and this needs to be administered in loving ways. When it is the thing needed, justice is much more compassionate than mercy.

The Israelites of the OT believed in a God with 2 hands. The hands were the symbols of justice and mercy. The left hand was the hand of justice and the right, the hand of mercy. (Think of Christ talking about the goats on his left hand and the lambs on the right. Think also of the many times and ways God, in the OT, speaks saying "my hand is stretched out still.") Under the law of Moses the people had to struggle with those principles and had to learn to apply them in loving ways. i.e. a child who strikes a parent is to be stoned. But, the person who throws the first stone is the one who witnesses against the child--the parent. So the parent stands with justice in one hand and mercy in the other and had to struggle with which to use, which to apply in love to their child. When Christ said, concerning the woman taken in adultery, "he who is without sin cast the first stone." He was not talking to all the people, he was talking to the witnesses against the woman. The very men who had brought her to use in this very despicable way in their attempt to entangle him. He was talking to a select few.

So, in dealing with perps who want no change, we must be just. In dealing with those who have had a full measure of justice and now will benefit from mercy, we must teach, guide, model and allow our compassion and knowledge to help them heal. Such programs do work. What we don't have are the justice based programs fleshed out. Daryl spoke of some things that would be a part of such programs--restorative justice, and such as that, planned well and implemented with compassion and care. It would not be difficult to do, what is difficult is finding the impetus to do it.

A warden started a program in a prison in Pennsylvania a few years back. It costs less to run the prison, recidivism went way down and anger in the prison as measured by inmate on inmate attacks went way down. Cheaper, more efffective, safer--guess how many prisons use the program now. TWO. Why, because the populace wants the chance to beat the shit out of bad guys (that's my theory.) I see only that which keeps the monsters of vengeance and cruelty alive in Momomomomoism; no wisdom, no godliness, no compassion. (And such as this from God's one and only true church; tsk tsk tsk.)

Ed

[silverfox]

. I guess I am a softie but, it gives me way more hope and joy to believe that people are basically good and even those that make mistakes are hurting to be given a chance to prove that they are good too! Why don't we give them that chance? Anyway, just some of what I believe. John :rolleyes:

I hope my posts aren't coming off like I think everyone needs to be in jail. Contrary. I am trying to pull in different views others may have including myself. I have seen the system fail time and time again. Throwing someone in jail is like what has been discussed a "punishment" and not necessarily a productive tool to use. My son knows when to manipulate the system to go to jail and get free room and board for a few days. He knows how to "play" the system to serve him when he needs it. The judges think they are "punishing" him but the joke is on them.

Each situation is so unique to the person's background, experiences, etc that no way can one size fit all programs work.

As long as citizens vote against programs, group homes, halfway houses, more staff, etc our jails will always be full and unproductive. The opportunities have been there but seem to always be voted down.

[nikki]

People may develop moral judgement, in many ways, and it also may depend on the type of personality which is being viewed as well.

In our history, there have been people who would have been considered not very good people, yet during the Holocost, they preformed some of the most noble of human endervors, saving people's lives. They saw an injustice, used their abilbities to save lives. Yet, by most standards they may not have been seen as the most moral of individuals. These were people, who were able to see beyond their societies taught biases, and hatreds and helped people they were taught to hate, and there also were people of good values who went against their faith and politics and did what they moral judgement dictated of them to do, and at risk to their lives.

I have seen some from sheltered homes, who were not aware of the suffering of others, and stayed on the sidelines of issues. Or looked with curiosity on others who were struggling, some even adding to the difficulties.

Moral development, may have many facets, not yet looked at. The individual themselves, ego's, life experience, types of training. Seeing, or experiencing injustice can highten awarness of injustice and propel moral development to another level.

Eye for a eye was part of the justice system in ancient times as it still is in area's of the middle east. There was retribution for someone, but there were also, many harsh guidelines and rules, also during that time.

In our current society, there may be a pentaly, but the victim is rarely reinstated from the harm done. Our justice system is horrible at any rate.

I cannot comment on abuser's and how they can heal, right now I do not know enough about the subject. I read where a person who is psychopathic, treatment may make the worse, but I am not in the field, and it was from an article written as an opinion.

There are many reason why people abuse, types of abuse, and many different types of abusers. Maybe the ability to heal and overcome is in the type of abuser.

But, I will deferr to Ed in this area. Got to go back to my reading, I am reading the Nuremburg Code of 1948.

[lisa]

In my own life situation. I have an ex husband serving 30 yrs for child abuse. I was more than ready to have this man locked up and throw away the key. But through my own healing and that of my children I have learned that would not be the most healthy thing to do. Forgive him? Maybe not that either. But to allow him to work through his own childhood wounds would have been the best course of action I am sure of now.

I work at a counseling center where we see abusers in many forms, domestic violence, child abuse, sexual abuse, just to name a few. These people are court ordered to attend our program. It did not take me long to realize that these people are not much different than the victims we see in our program as well. They all are wounded children. Every single one of the offenders that I have had the oppertunity to work with has had some type of childhood trauma. ranging from severe to mild. But because of those traumas or messages they were given as children they have made some really bad choices wich in a weird sort of way may be the only choice they could have made at the time. We end up with our core belifs being either self-empowering or Self-defeating. Maybe mom, and dad didnt show love and acceptance to that child; or maybe they could never measure up to the expectations of others. so they may now have core belifs like "I am unloveable, or I will never be enough" So sabatoging their relationships, and their lives is all they can do. Until they get help in turning those core belifs around, and know that they are loveable, and that they are enough, they are not worthless.
That is just a little of what I have learned. Abusers are just as wounded as the victims in most cases. It hurts me when I see both men and women being told how bad they are, and the big reality is they are just wounded children needing to heal. Im my own situation it has taken a long time to get me to where I can look at my ex-husband with a little bit of empathy for the abuse he must have also endured. That still does not mean I have forgiven my own childrens abuser.Just that the answer was not neccesarily putting him in prison.
Thanks Ed you continue to inspire me on this subject.

Lisa

[lsands]

I am so impressed with and want to thank all of you who have shared your stories here. I just read Lisa's post, and I am very touched by her choice to move through the anger to seeing those who abuse as human beings who have been hurt as well. This ability and choice to see very hurtful and painful situations such as sexual and physcial abuse clearly and honestly, AND with wisdom and compassion, rather than the dualistic sin/guilt/shame lens of Mormonism, seems to me to be some of the best "fruits" of post-mormonism (by their fruits ye shall know them.)