#3 Preventing further abuse

[bigeddy]

Preventing further sexual abuse is a complex issue. It requires full understanding of the issues involved and a comprehension of the effects of the entire system. If preventing abuse was as simple as beating the crap out of abusers who were caught then we should see abuse abating. But it is not. I see abuse as including pornography of all types. Porno is a substitute for sexual energy. Because males tend to emphasize sexual intimacy, sexual porno is turned to as a substitute for female energy when a male is out of balance. Because females tend to emphasize emotional intimacy, romance novels are turned to as a substitute when male energy is needed to acheive balance. I see no difference between them. (I heard a talk show host talking about how BYU Library was rating their romance novel collection. I wondered if they had a Playboy collection.)

My brother and I attended a meeting of a congressional advisory committee that was intended to give needed help to the Utah State Legislature on issues of sexual abuse. We were interested in a bill that would allow an abuser to come forward and receive help without risking loss of everything. We wanted a process that would allow a man to come forward and admit to a problem and enter a confined treatment program, if it was deemed appropriate (in some cases only incarceration is appropriate) where he could work to solve his problem. We also wanted this to include a way for victims to tell on their abusers without losing the family breadwinner and etc. The goal was to reduce victimization. The committee basically laughed at the effort. Elder Harbertson (a stuffy, ignorant GA) was on the committee and his answer was to take the men out into the west desert and put a bullet in their head. What a Christ-like attitude from a rep of the momos. The group was so unclear about which problem they were addressing that they could not do anything of value. It was sickening. The result was that they guaranteed that some innocent person would be victimized.

We need to see attitudes changed, laws changed and options opened in order to prevent further victims from being created by preventing further abusers from being created.

Above all, we need to push to see sexuality understood by the populace and the leaders. IF we do not understand sexuality we cannot solve this problem. Mormons have no clue about sexuality. At least, I have never seen any evidence of wisdom concerning the issue. Boyd does not know his head from his ass when it comes to issues of sexuality. I read what Daryl and others write about the sacred feminine and I know that without comprehendning that and acting in concert with that proper understanding, we will not solve this problem.

So, ideas as to how to push for change, how to educate a society, how to solve the problem despite the likelihood that the GA's will, once again, stick their heads up each others' collective asses and refuse to see because they already know. If they know so much, why is the problem still existing. I echo what Jeff has said about the power of the priesthood detecting one abuser before the victim wails. I have not seen it either.

Ed

[Born Free]

So, ideas as to how to push for change, how to educate a society, how to solve the problem despite the likelihood that the GA's will, once again, stick their heads up each others' collective asses and refuse to see because they already know. If they know so much, why is the problem still existing. I echo what Jeff has said about the power of the priesthood detecting one abuser before the victim wails. I have not seen it either.

Ed

Ed,

Thanks for an invaluable contribution to this problem that negatively impacts so many lives. IMHO it it also an area where a little knowledge goes a long way. As I write, for the last 3 days the daily news are headed by progress reports on ongoing community expulsions of a man, whom the State has deemed ready for release. Vigilante crowds gather outside each new residence, and stone the roof way into the deep hours of the morning. To make matters worse, from the footage I see of this guy, he nearly certainly has brain damage of some sort. At last report he had found a place to live in the middle of an industrial area.

Good, the ill-infomed will say. Bad, the more knowledgable will say; because we know that successful socialisation is such an important element of getting and keeping these people safe. Stressing them to the max merely increases the likelihood they will restart using inappropriate sexual fantasy to relieve their pain/stress.

I am reposting something here that I added to the end of the initial thread. I applaud your initiative in splitting the threads to make them more attuned to the needs of specific people's needs.

[Repeat of post from original thread]

I have worked closely with a psychologist who specialised in this area for years. I learnt a great deal from our conversations, and as a result have come to observe public discourses around this subject much more closely.

I was heartened to see Ed's contribution of some real data on treatment effect for sexual offending. I was under the impression it was over 80%, so the important issue is that this hurtful issue can be treated. Someone above mentioned a case where frontal lobe damage may have been involved, and that fits into another category. Our uniquely human facilties reside in that part of the brain, including many of the healthy inhibitory facilities to override powerful primal urges from the older brain.

Sadly, it is my understanding that the treatement rate in the US is about the same as here in Australia - in that only about 30% of incarcerated offenders get proper treatment.

As if that is not problematic enough, follow through this logic, which is based upon some recent data here in Australia.

Only about 30% of victims report to authorities.
Of that 30%, the Crown (here - State for you) only figures they have solid enough case to make laying a charge reasonably viable in about 50% - so we are back to 15%.
Of those they only get a successful conviction in about 20% of cases - or about 3%.

Now in any facet of life that is regarded as important, would we settle for a 3% success rate? That is an appauling achievement, particularly when you overlay that with the figure of only 30% of those receiving proper treatment. You will see that gets us back to 1%.

Another number that is relevent here is how 'productive' or toxic the average arrested offender is. Some research I am familiar with showed that by the time people are arrested and incarcerated, they had been involved with over 50 victims. This issue can start to be viewed in terms of disease infection models. Below a particular 'infection rate' the disease will die out, but above a certain rate, it will expand to become a plague. I see this issue as potentially that serious.

That model can be extended to view some social settings as high-risk of (sexual-abuse) disease: sexual ignorance & fear; cultures that avoid confronting and containing offenders;that suppress and muffle victims; avoid keeping statistics; take an (exclusively) punitive approach; are reactive, rather than proactive; don't make legal notification mandatory; and the list goes on.

We are largely dealing now still with men (and women. Let's not forget that women sexually abuse too!) whose thinking was largely shaped pre-internet. The availability of material that feeds unhealthy mindsets has risen massively and is practically at the fingertips now!

If we are serious as a community about fixing this problem, we MUST find a more proactive way, because a success rate of 1% is like putting fertilizer on the problem.

BTW, I would be delighted for Ed to clarify those numbers, but as you can see, they will need to be shifted massively for the basic point about an inept response, to shift.

Daryl

[End of other post]

PS: I am also reminded of my friend speaking of what happened on many occasions in social gatherings when people discovered what he did professionally. The conversation frequently turned to 'chemical casteration'. He recounted how many people were visibly disappointed when they discovered that this DID NOT involve lowering the perp, scrotum first into a vat of hydrochloric acid! :eek:

[lsands]

I guess I am now experiencing what mutleydog wrote about that started this whole topic---feeling grieved. While I appreciate tremendously and have learned a lot from the many posts on this subject, especially by bigeddy and sturdgw, I am feeling the weight of the pain surrounding this whole issue.

I remember when I learned about ten years ago from one of my aunts (who violated the family's no-talk rule bigtime) that three of my father's brothers had been molesters. One of my uncles raped his own sister and violated all three of his daughters. My youngest uncle, the last of ten children, had recently commited suicide rather than face charges concerning his molestation of a niece, my cousin's daughter.

I remember reeling emotionally from all of this information, and wondering why God (I was still LDS at the time) created a world where such abuse was so prevalent! Every family I know has had to deal with this in some way with one or more members. Jeff mentioned that he was unaware of anything like this within even his extended family; I'd bet a lot of money that it's just been covered up and he doesn't know about it.

So, anyone who cares to answer, can you help me out at all with why this happens so much? Are there societies where it is not so common? What cultural factors are at work here? I know that there are cultures where incestuous relationships are accepted, among other practices that are illegal here. I know I've asked a BIG question here, maybe more than this forum is designed for. But I am trying to understand. Maybe a big part of the answer is healthy attitudes and information about sexuality.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Laraine

[Born Free]

I guess I am now experiencing what mutleydog wrote about that started this whole topic---feeling grieved.

So, anyone who cares to answer, can you help me out at all with why this happens so much? Are there societies where it is not so common? What cultural factors are at work here? I know that there are cultures where incestuous relationships are accepted, among other practices that are illegal here. I know I've asked a BIG question here, maybe more than this forum is designed for. But I am trying to understand. Maybe a big part of the answer is healthy attitudes and information about sexuality.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Laraine

Laraine,

One of the most accessible explanations for the layman that I have come across is in John Bradshaw's book Family Secrets.

First of all, your family does sounds like it is on the high end of the scale, from my experience. My family has been relatively free, but not completely. That said, my wife and I have got 3 girls to adulthood without even going close to being burnt by this issue. Indeed, anyone who tries to mess with them would be in serious trouble, not from me initially, but from them.

My family incident however does fit the mould of how and why it persists. Toxic family secrets persist because people are too ashamed to "speak its name" and are too ashamed to get help. Anything that is so powerful as to be unspeakable, does not have its power diminished! In fact, just the opposite happens; it is energized.

I had a client recently who did everything in his power to avoid engaging with a Structured Autobiography because he did not want to reconnect with the violence of his childhood in his family of origin, and his sexual abuse by a psychiatrist when he was sent for assistance with behavioural problems at just 10 years. His avoidance actually empowered his fears, saying in effect "They are too scary. I cannot look them in the eye!"

Paradoxically, when he was convinced that they could not hurt him anymore than they had, and that in fact he could rob them of their power by addressing them, he started to make good progress.

I can understand how you may feel, given your personal experience, that all families are places of lies, concealment, and abuse. Let me assure that is not the case. And you can do a lot to maximise the chance that it does not occur again in your decendents. But it requires someone to shout out loud "This shit stops here! I am going to do everything in my power to break this toxic cycle. This poisoned chalice has been passed from generation to generation for too long.". Once you have deeply committed to that, you will be surprised how much progress can be made.

Bradshaw quotes in that book some evidence that toxic abuse nearly seems to be passed in the family 'genes' (not literally), going underground during periods or generations of massive override (such as getting religion), but if not cured at its root, it just resurfaces a generation later. It is like a family has a charma that must be cleared properly, and denial and covering up, is, and never will be, proper clearing.

For my money, your end remark is close to the money on the ongoing reason. Sex is powerful medicine - It is THE life creating force - no less. Anyone who thinks that you can launder, box, churchify, bleach, censor, suppress that is playing with themselves, and asking, indeed near guaranteeing, that it will go bang in their face.

You don't get a good working relationship with a powerful stallion by pretending he is a pony, or a gelding. You have to start with the truth. YOu don't control such forces! You make peace with them; you develop creative dynamic working relationships. But control is a fantasy!

That is why religions like Mormonism that stick their heads up their arse, are always getting entangled by this issue. Their approach is COMPLETELY wrong.

Daryl

[peter_mary]

So, anyone who cares to answer, can you help me out at all with why this happens so much? Are there societies where it is not so common? What cultural factors are at work here?

Laraine

I've been wrestling with this one, too, Laraine. I don't have any personal or professional experience, but like you, feel the weight of the issue.

Yesterday at lunch, I was visiting with a friend, and we were talking through some ideas that seem to me to be related to the issue at hand, and felt like I was having the initial glimpses of an epiphany, but I confess up front that it is still a little fuzzy for me, and probably not fully worked out practically and philosophically. So I WELCOME anyone else's insights to what I'm thinking here, including telling me to go back on my meds :) .

Here's what I'm wondering. Obviously the problem is more deeply rooted in our social paradigms than meets the eye. Reading the things that Ed, Daryl and John (Shamdiel) have written, coupled with some of my own study, I wonder if a component of the root problem here is the traditional western paradigm that actions or behaviors are either "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong", "rightoues" or "sinful." Let me see if I can elaborate enough to bring some sense to my thinking.

We are born with a handful of instincts, and zero experience. Part of what our brain is capable of is learning from the those things which cause it to feel pleasure and pain, helpful or hurtful to our growth and development. If those experiences are left unjudged in terms of "good" or "bad," but rather were left to be considered by the individual brain to be either helpful or unhelpful, then I wonder if much of the sickness we are talking about would never develop.

The Buddhists often refer to our behaviors as either "skillfull" or "unskillfull" rather than "right" or "wrong." In other words, the art of living in a healthy, constructive fashion is something you have to learn, and that we each CAN learn. Now leaving aside the obvious problems of violence in all it's myriad forms for now, I can't help but wonder if thinking about our behaviors in terms of skill level rather than personal worth wouldn't be more helpful. In other words, if I as a child engaged in play or behavior that my parents recognized was unskillful, and they took it upon themselves to teach me the skill, then I come out of the experience with new knowledge, but not a diminished sense of self worth. If I haven't learned calculus or classical piano, no one thinks that makes me bad. But if I make a different mistake, like sleep with my neighbor, then what?

If I am allowed to see that event, adultery in this case, as unskillful, then I am free to seek instruction from my wife (who would have a valid perspective), from an ecclesiastical leader (who would have some valid perspective), from my neighbor's husband, my neighbor herself, my kids, her kids, etc., all of which would in fact be useful to my brain in understanding that what I did might not be useful in moving me forward in the direction I want to go. On the other hand, our society simply does not allow for that. The behavior of adultery (and remember, I'm just using this as a hypothetical example, of which there are countless others), is so burdened with the labels such as "bad", "wrong", "evil", "sinful," "wicked," etc., and the parties who have an interest in this issue are so inclined to judge that behavior as such, then from the standpoint of my own psychological pain, I have no choice but to retreat in shame, and try to pretend it didn't happen. BUT IF I DO THAT, I AM LIKELY NOT TO LEARN A MORE SKILLFULL WAY OF HANDLING THE FEELINGS I WAS STRUGGLING WITH IN THE FIRST PLACE! The people who could have been my teachers and mentors instead turn into my judges and executors.

Maybe this is the ideal that has been attributed to Jesus that we fall so infinately short of when we speak of "unconditional love." If in fact we love unconditionally those we are surrounded by, then we are not judging their actions in terms of right or wrong, but simply recognizing that they haven't learned that lesson yet. We have all mastered some aspects of the art of living, and not mastered others...and those opportunities to learn keep coming around and around. We are unafraid, often enough, to face the life lessons that are not burdened with a lable of "sin", because they seem benign and safe. But we are terrified to face the judges in our lives when we engage in unskillful behavior surrounding one of the aspects of the art of living that we have not mastered that IS burdened by that label of sin. The label sticks to us, and we become "wicked."

Perhaps this is why programs like Alcoholics Anonymous are so effective. It creates a safe place where a person can face others, and lay bare the struggles they are having in learning this particular lesson, and be mentored by others who only view them as "unskilled" rather than "bad."

As I think along these lines, and mull over John's own story and the stories of countless others, I can't help but wonder how the outcome might have been different if they had been mentored rather than spanked, if they had been taught and given the opportunity to talk openly about their experience and feelings rather than having their arse hauled in to see the Bishop, and to have their weekly ration of a bite of bread and a sip of water denied...for all the Ward to notice.

I appologize for rambling, because as I said, I haven't really worked this out in my mind fully, but it's been STUCK in my brain since yesterday, and I wanted to toss it out there...

Paul

[silverfox]

We are born with a handful of instincts, and zero experience. Part of what our brain is capable of is learning from the those things which cause it to feel pleasure and pain, helpful or hurtful to our growth and development. If those experiences are left unjudged in terms of "good" or "bad," but rather were left to be considered by the individual brain to be either helpful or unhelpful, then I wonder if much of the sickness we are talking about would never develop.

The Buddhists often refer to our behaviors as either "skillfull" or "unskillfull" rather than "right" or "wrong." In other words, the art of living in a healthy, constructive fashion is something you have to learn, and that we each CAN learn. Now leaving aside the obvious problems of violence in all it's myriad forms for now, I can't help but wonder if thinking about our behaviors in terms of skill level rather than personal worth wouldn't be more helpful. In other words, if I as a child engaged in play or behavior that my parents recognized was unskillful, and they took it upon themselves to teach me the skill, then I come out of the experience with new knowledge, but not a diminished sense of self worth. If I haven't learned calculus or classical piano, no one thinks that makes me bad. But if I make a different mistake, like sleep with my neighbor, then what?

If I am allowed to see that event, adultery in this case, as unskillful, then I am free to seek instruction from my wife (who would have a valid perspective), from an ecclesiastical leader (who would have some valid perspective), from my neighbor's husband, my neighbor herself, my kids, her kids, etc., all of which would in fact be useful to my brain in understanding that what I did might not be useful in moving me forward in the direction I want to go. On the other hand, our society simply does not allow for that. The behavior of adultery (and remember, I'm just using this as a hypothetical example, of which there are countless others), is so burdened with the labels such as "bad", "wrong", "evil", "sinful," "wicked," etc., and the parties who have an interest in this issue are so inclined to judge that behavior as such, then from the standpoint of my own psychological pain, I have no choice but to retreat in shame, and try to pretend it didn't happen. BUT IF I DO THAT, I AM LIKELY NOT TO LEARN A MORE SKILLFULL WAY OF HANDLING THE FEELINGS I WAS STRUGGLING WITH IN THE FIRST PLACE! The people who could have been my teachers and mentors instead turn into my judges and executors.

Maybe this is the ideal that has been attributed to Jesus that we fall so infinately short of when we speak of "unconditional love." If in fact we love unconditionally those we are surrounded by, then we are not judging their actions in terms of right or wrong, but simply recognizing that they haven't learned that lesson yet. We have all mastered some aspects of the art of living, and not mastered others...and those opportunities to learn keep coming around and around. We are unafraid, often enough, to face the life lessons that are not burdened with a lable of "sin", because they seem benign and safe. But we are terrified to face the judges in our lives when we engage in unskillful behavior surrounding one of the aspects of the art of living that we have not mastered that IS burdened by that label of sin. The label sticks to us, and we become "wicked."

Perhaps this is why programs like Alcoholics Anonymous are so effective. It creates a safe place where a person can face others, and lay bare the struggles they are having in learning this particular lesson, and be mentored by others who only view them as "unskilled" rather than "bad."

As I think along these lines, and mull over John's own story and the stories of countless others, I can't help but wonder how the outcome might have been different if they had been mentored rather than spanked, if they had been taught and given the opportunity to talk openly about their experience and feelings rather than having their arse hauled in to see the Bishop, and to have their weekly ration of a bite of bread and a sip of water denied...for all the Ward to notice.

I appologize for rambling, because as I said, I haven't really worked this out in my mind fully, but it's been STUCK in my brain since yesterday, and I wanted to toss it out there...

Paul

Good stuff, Paul. I like the idea of "skilled" and "unskilled". I often wonder what life would be like had the Bible (which is the basis of our laws, rules, etc) had never been introduced. It dumbfounds me the power it has.

Sex has always been taboo. Always will be in the human race. It doesn't matter what all the professionals say and I am assuming most encourage talking about it, teaching your kids about it, creating an open environment of communication, etc - regardless, an individual's view of what is right or wrong has more power. We see it in our juries, our government, politics, etc.

If a parent is willing to talk openly about it, they are not for the most part well received by fellow parents. It appears that a lot of parents want to shelter their kids from it. But it's in our churches and homes that natural curiousity and urges regarding sex remains dirty, bad, evil. Society has given sex much power. Instead of like you suggest, offering the skills to be just as powerful. You can't compete with that kind of power without the proper weapons/tools. Thus, so many of us fail.

And I just woke up and am not organized in my thoughts as well. (Wait....I'm rarely organized in my thoughts) Okay so I just woke up. :)

I am fascinated by these threads.

[lsands]

One of the most accessible explanations for the layman that I have come across is in John Bradshaw's book Family Secrets.

I can understand how you may feel, given your personal experience, that all families are places of lies, concealment, and abuse. Let me assure that is not the case. And you can do a lot to maximise the chance that it does not occur again in your decendents. But it requires someone to shout out loud "This shit stops here! I am going to do everything in my power to break this toxic cycle. This poisoned chalice has been passed from generation to generation for too long.". Once you have deeply committed to that, you will be surprised how much progress can be made.

Thanks, sturdgw and paul, for your responses. I am very familiar with John Bradshaw's work; in fact, his book Healing the Shame that Binds You had a very important role in my early healing. Among other things, it helped me tremendously to see the manipulation of my then-husband.

I did not mean to give the impression that I thought my father's family is the norm (what a horrible world that would be!) And I should have clarified that we had little contact with these relatives after I was about six or seven until I was well into adulthood. A friend recently suggested that my dad may have been shielding us from all of the garbage, a possibility I had never considered since I also never knew about what was going on. My dad is very much from the generation of, If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Anyway, I grew up relatively unscathed, and so have my children, with the exception of one incident with one of my children and a babysitter who was a member of our ward. But there it is: One incident in my immediate family. My original idea is confrimed, that every family I know of has been impacted by this painful situation in some way.

Paul, I love your ideas. One of the things that occured to me while I was reading your post is that learning from your wife, neighbors, etc. in your hypothetical situation of adultery would not be possible because of the pain involved for those individuals. But if they were free to express their pain and sorrow at your actions, you would certainly learn a powerful lesson from that.

I agree completely with your concept: experiencing life and learning and growing without shame. While I did not experience sexual abuse as a child, I did experience constant emotional and physical abuse from a parent. I am happy to say that that ended with me and my sister; neither of us has passed that legacy on. I raised my children with as much love and support and encouragement as I could. I was a better parent than my parents were, and as I watch two of my children with their sons, I see that they are better than I was, too. We are making a new legacy for the generations to come.

Laraine

[bigeddy]

Paul,

As I read your post I became more determined to finish the article I am writing about polarized thinking. Once again we see the dangers of casting things in such an unevolved way. I teach my students that the main thing I want them to get from a "liberal arts" education is the chance to climb out of polarized thinking. We go over why the institution here is called a "University", I tell them my goal is to help shrink the entire universe down small and hand it to them and invite their help in solving the complex problems. Also why BYU cannot be called a University. I tell students that no one has the right to carve out parts of the universe and tell students that they are not capable of handling the complexity. What an arrogant attitude that would prevent me from letting my students see the whole hog. Hey Boyd, when do we get meat with our meal. All this milk has made my f***ing teeth fall out and my brain turn to mush!

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to write was to test out a paradigm I want to put in my article. I spent some fascinating days reading a couple of governement documents. I read the Columbia Accident Investigation Board report and the 9/11 Commission report. (The difference between these 2 documents was absolutely astounding. The CAIB report was meaty, complete, incisive and very helpful in many ways. The 9/11 Commission report was a political farce that skimmed the surface of everything with the intellectual power of a piss-ant. I was amazed) The point that hit me strongly was that a certain shift in philosophy concerning the space shuttle and the entire program led to further polarization and the quelling of dissenting voices. The report pointed out that one of the most powerful things behind the loss of the orbiter was a document that declared that the shuttle was operational instead of experimental. That led to a paradigmatic change in the way of viewing everything about the program and the hardware.

I mentally compared that to what happens when we see any of our social programs, paradigms, issues or whatever, as operational. That declaration leads to a belief that the system is A-OK. If problems arise it is not the system, or a "what went wrong", but it is a "who went wrong" question that then leads to ass covering and etc. Such an attitude, that the sytem is operational, tends to entrench polarized thinking because we have already decided that the system is "right" and so we then are primed to defend the "rightness" of the system rather than seek to solve a problem.

The report further stated that this attitude led NASA to cease being a "learning organization" to an extent. They became a "doing" system. So, when it was demonstrated that foam from the external tank had been breaking away and striking the orbiter in many past missions the problem was not solved because NASA did not seek to learn from problems. They stated instead that it had worked well in the past so why worry. Lets get on with the "doing" instead of looking at what could be learned. The absolute comparison to my mother's attitude about momomomois is so striking that I nearly fell out of my chair. Everytime I tell her of my concerns about the church she says "But, look at all the good it is doing."

I compare NASA's failure to Iraq. If American democracy is seen as operational rather than experimental, an event such as 9/11 will cause a regression into defending "we are right." Rather than a more productive look at what is going wrong in our experimental system (a system where we expect problems and further learning) that could lead us to understand how our foreign policy and behavior has alienated people and made us hated all to often. So, because we tend to see our system as operational we defend its "rightness" rather than look to solve a problem.

I compare it to Moism. If the church could see itself as experimental rather than operational it may lead to beholding itself as a learning institution rather than a doing one. Problems could be addressed as learning to be done, challenges to be addressed rather than finding the sinner to blame. Our current discussion of sexual abuse and its roots in sexual misunderstanding is so rich an area for this problem to take hold. If the church is seen as experimental we could ask about the systemic problems leading to the daily creation of abusers. But, since the church is "perfect" hence, operational. It cannot be at fault, it must be those wretched perps. They just need to be killed. I would hope that anyone who looks critically at moism is not fooled about whether it is a learning institution or not. Don't make me laugh!

Anyway, back to Paul's point. The black and white thinking about all things sexual lead to lack of learning, leading to lack of solving problems, leading to more victims, leading to need to cover more and more shit, leading to more and more lies, deceit and ass covering. What really pisses me off is the blaming that is laid on victims. Both those who will never become abusers and those who will. When the system itself is often more to blame than individual abusers.

I want us to begin to see all our social systems as experimental; all my own personal stands, values and etc. as experimental, that we/I can stay a learning institution. I doubt we will influence Boyd and his ilk (I repeat this so often, I will now start to use the acronym BAHI) to become open to learn anything. But maybe we can influence the courts to see themselves as experimental, the social welfare programs to see themselves that way, and we can influence our families to see themselves that way. We'll see.

Ed

[lsands]

I want us to begin to see all our social systems as experimental; all my own personal stands, values and etc. as experimental, that we/I can stay a learning institution. I doubt we will influence Boyd and his ilk (I repeat this so often, I will now start to use the acronym BAHI) to become open to learn anything. But maybe we can influence the courts to see themselves as experimental, the social welfare programs to see themselves that way, and we can influence our families to see themselves that way. We'll see.
Ed

I'm afraid I don't have any hope for the LDS church changing in any significant ways any time soon, if ever, because it's about maintaining POWER and refusing to look inside at our own strengths and weaknesses. As a woman, I had no real power in the Mormon hierarchy, so it was easier for me to leave in order to regain my personal power and authority. I think it can be harder for men to leave (and I am even more admiring of those who do) because they have to give up the power the church gives them. Of course, that power is limited as well, as they have authorities over them who control them.

So I don't see any payoff for the men who are finally rewarded by standing at the top of the mountain, surveying the worshipful multitudes down below. Particularly since the men who make it that far have climbed the ladder over the years by complete submission and adherence to the party line.

Those of us who have left (and are posting here) have experienced the incredibly painful process of having the foundations of our worlds and belief system rocked to their core, with the resultant fallout from the loss of family and friends. This is not a journey for the faint of heart. HOWEVER, it is WORTH IT, all of it, for the reward at the end.

I was thinking last week about how I lived the first 40 years of my life asleep, unaware of what I thought or felt because I was so focused on doing what I believed was "right", and burying any thoughts or feelings that contradicted that. I've spent the last 8 years excavating, and have found buried treasure: MYSELF. And I am now free to explore all of my thoughts and feelings and to have new experiences. HALLELUJAH! I have gone from being dead and buried to opening my eyes to the rich, beautiful world, with permission---even encouragement---to experience and explore any and all of it. I can make mistakes, and, as Paul talked about, learn and grow, without shame.

I guess this post is somewhat off-topic, but it is a response to the idea that the LDS leaders will EVER get it, at least in my lifetime. That's why we left it behind.

Thanks for a forum here to explore and share my thoughts and feelings.

Laraine

[Born Free]

That is why religions like Mormonism that stick their heads up their arse, are always getting entangled by this issue. Their approach is COMPLETELY wrong.

Daryl

Paul,

I am 100% in alignment with your discourse. It has parallels with one origin of the word 'sin' that I came across. It claimed that a 'sin' was an arrow that missed the target bull-eye, back when archery was of more importance than it is today.

So I need to go back and rephrase the above emotive statement in more inclusive and less dichotomized terms, to make it read:

That is why religions like Mormonism that (formerly "stick their heads up their arse") believe this issue can be controlled or denied, are always getting entangled by this issue. Their approach (formerly "is COMPLETELY wrong") exhibits extremely low levels of skill in meeting the specific challenges sexuality presents.

I regress to use such language (in all seriousness) and appreciate anything that acts as a reminder, that I am falling back into that mindset!

Daryl

PS: To underline the above, I notice somewhere in the last few days my 'status' has ascended from 'member' to 'senior member', so as an elder of sorts, a more moderate, inclusive, and expansive language, might be more appropriate.

[peter_mary]

Paul,

As I read your post I became more determined to finish the article I am writing about polarized thinking.

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to write was to test out a paradigm I want to put in my article.

The report pointed out that one of the most powerful things behind the loss of the orbiter was a document that declared that the shuttle was operational instead of experimental. That led to a paradigmatic change in the way of viewing everything about the program and the hardware.

I mentally compared that to what happens when we see any of our social programs, paradigms, issues or whatever, as operational. That declaration leads to a belief that the system is A-OK. If problems arise it is not the system, or a "what went wrong", but it is a "who went wrong" question that then leads to ass covering and etc.

Ed

Ed,

I think your paradigm of the "life experimental" versus "the life operational" is EXACTLY what I was bumbling around trying to say. That paradigm is both extremely useful and hard to implement...and BAHI :) not only WON'T adopt it, they CAN'T. To do so undermines their authority. God's Church is, after all, the same yesterday, today and forever, and cannot, therefore, be experimental. And that's the root of the problem.

Thank you! You've done me a great service in helping to bring added (and needed) clarity to my thinking!

Paul

[Born Free]

Ed,

I think your paradigm of the "life experimental" versus "the life operational" is EXACTLY what I was bumbling around trying to say. That paradigm is both extremely useful and hard to implement...and BAHI :) not only WON'T adopt it, they CAN'T. To do so undermines their authority. God's Church is, after all, the same yesterday, today and forever, and cannot, therefore, be experimental. And that's the root of the problem.

Thank you! You've done me a great service in helping to bring added (and needed) clarity to my thinking!

Paul

Paul and Ed,

This discussion has developed in an interesting direction (as they all do).

What it brought to mind for me was the Japanese concept of Kaizen - incremental and ongoing improvement.

Demming was the American who brought that concept most to the attention of Americans when they were losing marketshare to Japanese manufacturing on all fronts. Have a look through this list of the elements of TQM manufacturing, and try on something I had never attempted before: apply it to Mormonism:

Create Constancy of Purpose for the Improvement of Product and Service
Adopt the New Philosophy
Cease Dependence on Mass Inspection
End the Practice of Awarding Business on Price Tag Alone
Improve Constantly and Forever the System of Production and Service (Kaizen)
Institute Training and Retraining
Institute Leadership
Drive Out Fear
Break Down Barrier Between Staff Areas
Eliminate Slogans, Exhortations and Targets for the Workforce
Eliminate Numerical Quotas
Remove Barriers to Pride of Workmanship
Institute a Rigorous Program of Education and Retraining
Take Action to Accomplish the Transformation

Isn't it wierd how much is relevent to Mormonism? Certainly there are exceptions, but how many of the things he had found were toxic to the healthy commercial organisation, apply equally as well?

It's a bummer getting caught up in this perfection trip! It puts one at odds with reality,and hence trying to get reality to fit beliefs, and not beliefs to fit reality - that great reliable definition of insanity.

This dialogue also continues to inform the observation as to why Mormons-in-power (MiP another good abbreviation) cannibalisticly consume the victim of abuse, rather than address the perpetrator.

Daryl

[nikki]

I had to give this thread a little thought. Prevention, may be opening the light on to abuses.

We should not under estimate the need for human values in our society and in our lives. The entire human experience and everything we do in 'framed in human relationships'. The impact whether, postive or negitive is from our human interaction, and the various degrees of relationship we have in our life time.

Religion has played a role in postive human values, as well as a very negitive role in unmoral human values. Especially, when giving one message, and behaving in an opposite manner, as well as when working in a disfunctional mode, normalizes abusive interaction while reinforcing 'group think', that the abusive interaction is correct, creating a bond between the group in carrying out the abuses.

Our society, as well as ourselves, need to function with postive moral "human values", which should exhibt human rights, and human treatment.

"Human evil" can rear it's head in any family, group, or society and to normalize harmful, abusive acts would go against the human spirit.

There may be some societies in which incest is accepted, if I recall correctly Margaret Mead did a study on the societies, and there was a high rate of trauma in those groups. Experts, correct me if I am wrong, it has been awhile since I read it.

Yes, incorrect sexual thought can lead to abusive behaviors, but it can be on both ends of the specturm, too ridged, and too free, and open.

Families can hand down from one generation to the next, abusive behaviors which within the family group, have been 'normalized", or made to appear normal to the family members. "Secrets" function to 'normalize' abusive behaviors in families, churchs, and institutions. As well as being 'special', 'chosen' and having secret cermonies unique to the group.

Victims are often ill equiped to end the cycle of abuse, they usuaually are naive to seduction, and have been stripped of needed defenses.