NPR’s “Talk of the Nation” top feature the life of Joe Smith. On shortly at 1300 hrs

[SoUtSkeptic]

It will be interesting to see if they really tell his story.

SoUtSkeptic

[elder_nomo]

It will be interesting to see if they really tell his story.

SoUtSkeptic
Thanks, SoUtSkeptic.
Includes (or consists of?) an interview with Richard Bushman (author of Rough Stone Rolling)
Here is a link
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5061595

If you can't catch it live, this web page says the audio will be available at approx. 6 pm ET.

[SoUtSkeptic]

Thanks, SoUtSkeptic.
Includes (or consists of?) an interview with Richard Bushman (author of Rough Stone Rolling)
Here is a link
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5061595

If you can't catch it live, this web page says the audio will be available at approx. 6 pm ET.

________________________________________________
Bushman fesses up as a TBM but does bring out the controversy of Smith’s Magical world view. Opening statement mentions that many non-believers see Joseph Smith a charlatan. I tried to call in to mention some of his magic like translating the BofM by looking into a hat but can not get in.

SoSkeptic

[SoUtSkeptic]

________________________________________________
Bushman fesses up as a TBM but does bring out the controversy of Smith’s Magical world view. Opening statement mentions that many non-believers see Joseph Smith a charlatan. I tried to call in to mention some of his magic like translating the BofM by looking into a hat but can not get in.

SoSkeptic

I finally got in. NPR allowed me to bring up Polyandry. I mentioned its existance on the churchs own family search.org site. Bushman acknowledged it, Said he covers it in his book. Hopefully this created more interest in researching mormonism.

SoUtSkeptic

[free thinker]

I am listenening and pausing as I have a comment to make.


1 The idea that many respectable people were treasure hunters in Smith's day. I would guess that these folks were few and far between. I am a student of history and almost never came upon it in the books I have read. If it was so very common why was JS tried and convicted for it in conjunction with glass looking?

Also Bushman makes it sound like JS was simply asked to help out in the digging. What I have read of JS leads me to believe he was very involved and spearheaded some projects.


2 Bushman mentions the overwhelming joy JS felt when he baptized his father. I recall a fight JS had with his brother in which his brother accused him of being a false prophet. JS exclaimed " I brought salvation to my fathers house" . He then basically asked his brother to "leave him be. " I would have guessed that a prophet at a time like this would have taken the time to testify boldly to his brother of his prophetic calling.


3 Speaking of miracles as the basis of most faiths, Bushman is backing away from what has always been the church's claims of miracle's being presented, BY THE HISTORY, of the church. Example: The BoM was a great miracle in that it was translated by the gift and power of god. Now as we come to realize it was a concoction, Bushman leans on the miracles of visits by angels and god etc. Like all other religions.

Folks what we have here is what most cultural mormons have been waiting for. The metamorphisis of mormonism from historical fact, to metaphysical myth, and the inherent stature and power that will be gained by so doing.

If you are just a student of history this really is fascinating. Watching this unfold before us is actually like a text book lesson of a religion mainstreaming to maintain it's veracity and base. I think when we look back fifity years from now," Rough Stone Rolling " will be considered almost sacrosanct in it's ability to gap the bridge from factual history to metaphysical history.

Do not think that the cultural mormons are not enjoying this. They are eating it up. This brings the church home safe. And in the end it will be told that JS knew all this would happen. He knew it would change etc.

Watching this from the sidelines really is amazing.

4 JS reluctance to talk in later life about the first vision. I can only guess that he had some realization that it was not reality, but by then he had the following he sought, so no need to chat too much about it.


5 Bushman states that the animosity that grew between mormons and their persecutors in the early church was " not brough about by any specific acts they did.." . When I see an intelligent, educated, and eloquent man say things like this I realize that he is more of an apologist than an academic. He simply cannot be that blind. Any marginal student of history would be able to see how the actions of these people brought ire to them.

For example, destroying the printing presses of your opposition will probably cause some consternation and possible retribution.

6 Bushman states that he thinks the power of the book " No Man Knows My History" comes from Brodies extraordinary writing skills. Absurd. The book's power comes from the contrast between what the church was saying about it's past, and the reality of that past. More apologetic falderald.

He also colors her as "working her way out of the church". Such subtle language to disparage her. I did not work my way out of the church. I was jolted out by facts that had been hidden from me by the well meaning.

7 Completetly skips explaining why JS practiced poliandary. In fact he brushes past it by talking about polygamy. What a great twist. Ever heard this? " Truth is stranger than fiction". Imagine using the topic of polygamy to avoid speaking of poliandry.

And the beat goes on.

ft

[helemon]

I finally got in. NPR allowed me to bring up Polyandry. I mentioned its existance on the churchs own family search.org site. Bushman acknowledged it, Said he covers it in his book. Hopefully this created more interest in researching mormonism.

SoUtSkeptic

Did you use the term polyandry or state that he was married to other men's wives? I think most people wouldn't know the difference between polygamy and polyandry.

[elder_nomo]

I am listenening and pausing as I have a comment to make.


1 The idea that many respectable people were treasure hunters in Smith's day. I would guess that these folks were few and far between. I am a student of history and almost never came upon it in the books I have read.

Also Bushman makes it sound like JS was simply asked to help out in the digging. What I have read of JS leads me to believe he was very involved and spearheaded some projects.


2 Bushman mentions the overwhelming joy JS felt when he baptized his father. I recall a fight JS had with his brother in which his brother accused him of being a false prophet. JS exclaimed " I brought salvation to my fathers house" . He then basically asked his brother to "leave him be. " I would have guessed that a prophet at a time like this would have taken the time to testify boldly to his brother of his prophetic calling.


3 Speaking of miracles as the basis of most faiths, Bushman is backing away from what has always been the church's claims of miracle's being presented, BY THE HISTORY, of the church. Example: The BoM was a great miracle in that it was translated by the gift and power of god. Now as we come to realize it was a concoction, Bushman leans on the miracles of visits by angels and god etc. Like all other religions.

Folks what we have here is what most cultural mormons have been waiting for. The metamorphisis of mormonism from historical fact, to metaphysical myth, and the inherent stature and power that will be gained by so doing.

If you are just a student of history this really is fascinating. Watching this unfold before us is actually like a text book lesson of a religion mainstreaming to maintain it's veracity and base. I think when we look back fifity years from now," Rough Stone Rolling " will be considered almost sacrosanct in it's ability to gap the bridge from factual history to metaphysical history.

Do not think that the cultural mormons are not enjoying this. They are eating it up. This brings the church home safe. And in the end it will be told that JS knew all this would happen. He knew it would change etc.

Watching this from the sidelines really is amazing.

4 JS reluctance to talk in later life about the first vision. I can only guess that he had some realization that it was not reality, but by then he had the following he sought, so no need to chat too much about it.


5 Bushman states that the animosity that grew between mormons and their persecutors in the early church was " not brough about by any specific acts they did.." . When I see an intelligent, educated, and eloquent man say things like this I realize that he is more of an apologist than an academic. He simply cannot be that blind. Any marginal student of history would be able to see how the actions of these people brought ire to them.

For example, destroying the printing presses of your opposition will probably cause some consternation and possible retribution.

6 Bushman states that he thinks the power of the book " No Man Knows My History" comes from Brodies extraordinary writing skills. Absurd. The book's power comes from the contrast between what the church was saying about it's past, and the reality of that past. More apologetic falderald.

He also colors her as "working her way out of the church". Such subtle language to disparage her. I did not work my way out of the church. I was jolted out by facts that had been hidden from me by the well meaning.

7 Completetly skips explaining why JS practiced poliandary. In fact he brushes past it by talking about polygamy. What a great twist. Ever heard this? " Truth is stranger than fiction". Imagine using the topic of polygamy to avoid speaking of poliandry.

And the beat goes on.

ft
I was a little distracted while listening so I missed a few things, but from what I heard, your list is spot-on, FT. [I would go back and listen again, but don't think I could stomach it. :Puking ]
Did you use the term polyandry or state that he was married to other men's wives? I think most people wouldn't know the difference between polygamy and polyandry.

I heard SoUtSkeptic ask his question and he used the term polyandry, but also immediately explained what it was, and specifically pointed to JS's practice of it.
But as FT says, Bushman didn't answer the question - changed the subject.
Good try, SoUtSkeptic.

[left_of_hive]

I finally got in. NPR allowed me to bring up Polyandry. I mentioned its existance on the churchs own family search.org site. Bushman acknowledged it, Said he covers it in his book. Hopefully this created more interest in researching mormonism.

SoUtSkeptic

Hey, I'm glad you posted this - I heard the teaser before it aired and wanted to post about it, but had to get to work. Anyway, as I was driving, I heard you ask the question (though I didn't know at the time it was one of "us"). He answered as if you had said "polygamy", even though you had very specifically said polyandry, and mentioned that women had pre-existing husbands.

I thought Bushman came across as sort of sad and ridiculous in his TBMness. I mean, to those unaquainted with mormonism, the whole thing must sound so bizarre!

[SoUtSkeptic]

Did you use the term polyandry or state that he was married to other men's wives? I think most people wouldn't know the difference between polygamy and polyandry.

__________________________________________________ __

I Used the term polyandry and gave the example of Mary Elizabeth Rollins also married to Adam Lightner at the same time referencing to the church’s family search .org. Bushman did admit he covered polyandry but did dodge my comment by switching to polygamy. He stated the church no longer practiced polygamy and I mentioned that they still do but in the next life which he had to admit to.

With all the controversial topics brought up on the program I don’t think it turned out to be a very good PR program for the church.

SoUtSkeptic