Children

[pearfire]

Hello all. I've been reading the forum lately and have been quite impressed with the wealth of information available. Most of it has been very eye opening. I appreciate the insight that is shared here. This is why I am going to ask this question. Forgive me if it's been asked before.

As the father I want what's best for my children. (which is why I am seeking the truth). But, and here's my dilemma, I also want stability for them. (which has been the LDS church) The older three have been baptised and the younger two arent' old enough yet.

I've had some nagging doubts about the church for sometime now and can no longer ignore them. Perhaps that's why my wife and I (both born into the church) have been inactive for much of our marriage.( As far as stages of post-mo goes I'd say that she's farther along them I am). My wife and I both kept the church around because it was familiar. How can I share these doubts of the church, Christ and God with them?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[silverfox]

Hello all. I've been reading the forum lately and have been quite impressed with the wealth of information available. Most of it has been very eye opening. I appreciate the insight that is shared here. This is why I am going to ask this question. Forgive me if it's been asked before.

As the father I want what's best for my children. (which is why I am seeking the truth). But, and here's my dilemma, I also want stability for them. (which has been the LDS church) The older three have been baptised and the younger two arent' old enough yet.

I've had some nagging doubts about the church for sometime now and can no longer ignore them. Perhaps that's why my wife and I (both born into the church) have been inactive for much of our marriage.( As far as stages of post-mo goes I'd say that she's farther along them I am). My wife and I both kept the church around because it was familiar. How can I share these doubts of the church, Christ and God with them?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Welcome!

When I first stumbled on all the issues I would share them with my family. I was in AMAZEMENT and SHOCK and couldn't help but share what I was finding. I presented it like I would any other topic. (Example: "Listen to this" and then I would read out of the book I was reading or what I was reading on the net). Personally, I feel that this opened up communication regarding the issues. I reacted like I would with anything else so it wasn't out of the ordinary. Their eyes were being opened the same time mine were because I shared everything with them. We had open discussions regarding a lot of it right from the beginning.

I wasn't afraid to share with my family. I am very open that way. Especially if something is bugging me...I like to communicate. They watched me go through the turmoil. They watched me experience the agony. They know it wasn't easy. They know I wasn't looking to get out, or that I chose to "lose" my testimony.

Being out of the church for over 3 years now I can see that the church, IMO, is NOT a good source of stability. What is stable about it? The meetings? The teachings? (not really asking, just thinking out loud) It is all familiar but, IMO, it's not right and does WAY more harm than good.

My kids are very different now that they are out of it. And so am I. They are more accepting and tolerant of other people, especially non-members. (so am I) They do not judge anyone based on if they go to Primary or not. They are no longer at risk of being asked by their bishop if they masturbate. They are not being taught that being gay is wrong. Or that piercings and tattoos are evil.

They are not exposed to stupid a$$ remarks like, "Oh, isn't it sad that little Freddie's mommy doesn't take him to Primary" or "Drinking coffee makes Heavenly Father sad".

Yikes! I realized that I was teaching my kids that God was very intolerable. The main focus in church was on little piddly things that didn't really matter.

I believe we are naive and don't give our parenting skills enough credit when we feel a church / religion is needed to create stability.

We don't have family prayer any more but we talk about what we are thankful for with each other.

We don't have family home evenings in the sense that the church directed us to but we spend LOTS more time together as a family. Sundays are CHERISHED now because we spend them together, communicating, bonding, playing, etc - not in separate rooms or being obedient and quiet during sacrament meeting.

We bear testimony of how much we love each other. We talk about issues, challenges, etc.

The same concept can still be in place, it's just that the focus can change and be more on each individual in the family.

I apologize if this doesn't make sense or seems unorganized. I am trying to meet work deadlines but I had to respond.

I believe my family unit is MUCH stronger than it ever was while we were TBM. We are more open and willing to share our thoughts. We don't judge each other or panic if we are not thinking in the lines that the prophet tells us to.

We are outside the mold and it's freeing and beautiful. It was not without it's challenges. My oldest daughter is still TBM and has issues with me sometimes but at least now we are open about it and talk about it. (three of my kids were adults when I left the church) All have been baptized but the youngest.

I can't imagine going back. There is so much at risk now.

Good luck in your journey. Please keep us posted.

[peter_mary]

Pearfire,

If I had to guess, children represent one of THE biggest obstacles for people struggling with the church. We all want our kids to feel safe, to feel secure, to live according to good principles, to make good choices, to associate with good friends...and often the fear is that it's the church that provides all of that.

I'm here to tell you, friend, that it's the church itself that is telling you your kids are in danger if you question the church.

Here's what I mean.

First, I believe it's a myth that LDS kids are "safer" than those from non-LDS homes, be they religious or otherwise. While I think children that come from homes with a healthy religious culture (note I did not say "strong religious culture...") generally lag in many of the unfortunate statistics, such as drug and alcohol abuse, unwanted pregnancy, trouble with the law, I think you'll also find that they don't lag FAR behind.

Second, it's a myth that people outside the church can't manage to raise good, healthy, responsible kids. See, here's the real deal as far as I can tell. The values that parents want their children to live MUST be modeled at home. Church may serve some degree of reinforcement (mostly by guilt), but it really doesn't matter what a kid hears at church if he or she is not witnessing it at home.

Turns out, MOST parents (good ones that is...goodness knows there are bunches of bad ones...) don't want their kids abusing substances, getting pregnant before they are ready, or getting in trouble with the law. And if they are LEADING the way for their kids, then they have the same likelihood of guiding their children through the rough times as LDS families. And LDS families fail at the same rate as everyone else if they don't lead at home, hoping that Primary and Mutual just take care of the hard stuff for them. Doesn't work!

So...in my experience, chucking those myths is worthwhile.

Next, how do you address your own doubts with your kids? Well, I suppose that depends entirely on the kind of relationship you have with 'em. The younger ones can easily evolve along with you and your wife...they just gradually slip out and they won't really even remember a time when they ever "knew the church was true," because they "never actually did."

Your older ones might surprise you (but they might not...you know 'em...I don't!) If you've been largely innactive most of your married life, that all by itself has communicated to your older kids that "all is not well in Zion" in the Pearfire household. Kids at that age are OFTEN struggling themselves with issues of spiritual things, in large part because they are confused about it. "How am I supposed to know? Why doesn't God talk to me? What if He's angry because I've done some bad things?" They are naturally questioning anyway...they might feel very validated by your questioning, too.

But all of that is just jabber from my personal experience. You live a completely different life, with completely different kids, in a completely different place, under completely different circumstances, so your own experience could (surprise!) be completely different!

So...talk some more...work out your thinking with us. We'd love to support you in your struggles.

Welcome to PostMo! :)

[pearfire]

Welcome!

...
What is stable about it? The meetings? The teachings? (not really asking, just thinking out loud)...


(Not replying. Just posting out loud :D )

The stability for me were the answers to the questions:
Were did I come from?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?

Having these answers was comforting. The unknown is pretty scary.





First, I believe it's a myth that LDS kids are "safer" than those from non-LDS homes, be they religious or otherwise. While I think children that come from homes with a healthy religious culture (note I did not say "strong religious culture...") generally lag in many of the unfortunate statistics, such as drug and alcohol abuse, unwanted pregnancy, trouble with the law, I think you'll also find that they don't lag FAR behind.


People of all upbringings make mistakes. It's asinine to believe that LDS kids won't.


Church may serve some degree of reinforcement (mostly by guilt),

One of the main reasons for my doubt of the LDS church and most churches for that matter. I can't imagine a God, who loves unconditionally, would guilt his children so much


Turns out, MOST parents (good ones that is...goodness knows there are bunches of bad ones...) don't want their kids abusing substances, getting pregnant before they are ready, or getting in trouble with the law.

BAD PARENTS?!?! Surely you jest.

It is all about example isn't it? I guess deciding what type of people I want them to grow up to be and then setting that example.

[silverfox]

[QUOTE=pearfire](Not replying. Just posting out loud :D )

The stability for me were the answers to the questions:
Were did I come from?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?

Having these answers was comforting. The unknown is pretty scary.

QUOTE]

I am curious, do you still feel you have the answers to those questions?

I don't.

But I think it's okay. I don't think it's pertinent to live a good quality life.

[free thinker]

If and when you would like, we would like to hear your story.

I had a real fear, and I mean real, that my life would come apart if I left the church. I thought my business would fail and that I would fall back into the foibles of a younger, wilder day.

My life is better now that I do not adhere to mormonism. And let's be clear about this. It is mormonism. It is the ism of all ism's. Powerful stuff. Yea Verily and Behold and Lo!! :rolleyes:

Do not let the mormon church fear you into submission.

It is just a church, run by men. They have no more connection to deity than you. They know nothing more than you.

Gordon Hinckley is just an avuncular old man. He is nothing special. Just a guy who stuck around long enough to fill the top slot. Hell he can't even work a Urim and Thumim. :cool:

Welcome Friend.

FT

[meinmachine]

Welcome!

This is a question we have all hashed around. Let me tell you what I have found. My first two kids were raised and are still In the Church. (14 and 16 yrs. Old) I have a little 7 year old girl that has never been to a Mormon church. My first two are good kids. So is my littlest one. However, my little one looks for natural answers to the mysteries of the universe. My other two are locked in the mind numbing quest to understand the world through the prism of Mormonism. They are riddled with guilt and they think I have fallen. In the long run I would put my $ on my youngest being the most satisfied with life and the most well adjusted. (Unless my other two get out.)

Kids are amazing, they seem to turn out pretty good regardless of how bad the parenting was or is. The truth is the “good” thing the church gives is structure. My youngest has more structure then my oldest two. Why? Because I make sure she gets it from me and in the way I think is healthy. If you want a corrupt morally bankrupt organization to establish the life structure for your kids you might want to think twice about that.

If it’s not good enough for you, it is not good enough for them. I would either get in or get out, and be done with it. It doesn’t sound like anyone would miss the three hours of “Instruction.”That doesn’t mean you have to resign, just don’t go, get rid off all the church stuff from your house and put science books on your bookshelf instead of Mormon literature. Lear the truth for yourself, and act accordingly. If you chose to be in the Church I would still make sure you were the fountain of the structure in their life. No parent should surrender that responsibility.

Just my take. I hope you find this place a great spot to rest your weary mind. Welcome!

[pearfire]

Silver- I don't have the correct answers. That's why I am looking for it.

FT- My story. Grew up in the church. Believed all I was told. Started having conversations about religion with a good friend, who is a recovering Catholic, a few months ago. I claimed I was a devote mormon but the more I thought the more I realized how not mormon I had become. I still follow the beliefs concerning treatment of self and others (which I think one should do with or without religion), but could no longer claim that I was a staunch believer. How can you when you no longer attend, don't fulfill callings and no longer care about going on Sunday? And don't feel guilty about any of it? :) There were also questions I was beginning to ask myself about why the church suppressed certain truths. The one that I cannot find an answer for is if Smith had been visited by God why did he feel it necessary to join the Masons? Fear for his life? I find can find no good answer to this. There are other questions as well.

Didn't mean to hijack my own thread. :D

[peter_mary]

The one that I cannot find an answer for is if Smith had been visited by God why did he feel it necessary to join the Masons? Fear for his life? I find can find no good answer to this. There are other questions as well.

I found it very interesting to learn that before Smith joined the Masons, in fact, before he established his own church, but AFTER he claimed the first vision, he joined the Methodist church. In fact, he was a "reader" (or something like that) for the local congregation.

Now remember, in the OFFICIAL version of the first vision, which was finalized 13 years later, Smith claims that Jesus and God the Father placed him on notice that NONE of the churches were correct, and he was to join none of them.

Hello?

Diconnect here?

I'm pretty well positive that if God came down and said, "Peter_Mary, thou shalt not join any church," I'd probably not join any church! Hell, if God came down, hovering above the ground and talked to me, I think I'd know, and I think I'd feel a pretty strong sense of obligation to go and do as the Almighty commanded, even if it included no coffee in the morning! YES! I could DO even that, if God actually spoke to me, in person, showing himself, hovering above the ground, scaring the bejeebers out of the woodland creatures and the evil pressence that had just moments before tried to drag me off to hell, saying, "Don't drink the Mocha! It is not meet for mankind!" The fact that Joe couldn't do this is evidence enough for me that his experience was, at best, a strong sense of what he should do no different than what any of us who ever felt we received an answer to a prayer might experience. At worst, he was just making stuff up... :rolleyes:

This has an interesting echo in the Book of Mormon. Remember how Laman and Lemual were all the time getting whacked by an angel, and they STILL never got it? Apparently, the inability to stick to the things that God tells you IN PERSON is not something that ran in Joseph's family...

And sorry to help you hijack your own thread! :p

[bergamot]

Hey,
I'm new to the site; my husband and I left the church this year and it's been pretty tumultuous.
The whole kids/stability thing was the issue that delayed our departure the longest. It's very stressful to contemplate, and worrisome to execute. I did finally have to remind myself that people across the world manage to raise healthy happy families with intelligent compassionate children without the church!
But it's tough to live in Utah and remove your kids from the stable societal influence, no matter how much you may personally disagree with it and even feel that it is damaging to some degree.
Obviously, not everyone feels this, but Mormons do for the most part produce functional ethical adults who contribute well to society. And it's scary to imagine raising your kids in a societal environment that is sending them the message that they are constantly letting people down by not getting baptized, or not getting their eagle, or not doing baptisms for the dead, or not going on a mission, etc.
I can tell that most of you on this site are way past these worries and much more comfortable with where you are. Thanks for all the support and sharing, and good luck, pearfire. I can definitely understand what you're feeling.

[peter_mary]

Hey,
I'm new to the site; my husband and I left the church this year and it's been pretty tumultuous.
The whole kids/stability thing was the issue that delayed our departure the longest. It's very stressful to contemplate, and worrisome to execute. I did finally have to remind myself that people across the world manage to raise healthy happy families with intelligent compassionate children without the church!
But it's tough to live in Utah and remove your kids from the stable societal influence, no matter how much you may personally disagree with it and even feel that it is damaging to some degree.
Obviously, not everyone feels this, but Mormons do for the most part produce functional ethical adults who contribute well to society. And it's scary to imagine raising your kids in a societal environment that is sending them the message that they are constantly letting people down by not getting baptized, or not getting their eagle, or not doing baptisms for the dead, or not going on a mission, etc.
I can tell that most of you on this site are way past these worries and much more comfortable with where you are. Thanks for all the support and sharing, and good luck, pearfire. I can definitely understand what you're feeling.
It's busy, it's Christmas time, and I'm cleaning up after the craziness, but I didn't want to miss the chance to say "Welcome, Bergamot!" and thanks for your thoughts. Looking forward to hearing from you again!

::dives back into the piles of crumpled wrapping paper and used tape::

[free thinker]

Obviously, not everyone feels this, but Mormons do for the most part produce functional ethical adults who contribute well to society. And it's scary to imagine raising your kids in a societal environment that is sending them the message that they are constantly letting people down by not getting baptized, or not getting their eagle, or not doing baptisms for the dead, or not going on a mission, etc


Welcome to post-mo and congradulations on your exit. It is not easy. I know, I went thorugh it about a year ago. I received help, support, and wisdom, from many here on this site. If you feel inclined we would like to hear your story. And you are welcome to introduce your story with a new thread if you like.

I wonder sometimes if as mormons we looked more towards acheivement than accomplishment. Acheivements like eagle scout recognition , mission serving, and etc. can and often are, reached without a soulful participation. Many young men go out into the mission field and return after a fairly hollow experience.

I wonder if we might be better off trying to become something rather than acheiving many things. Acheivement often only asks for participation and follow through. Accomplishment, in my opinion, can accompany seeming outward failure.

I may not finish a mission for example , but in the process I might find that I no longer believe mormon doctrine, and thereby accomplish a more soulful walk in life. Accomplishments often are devoid of recognition.


I have changed my focus in life to becoming something rather than acheiving things. Does that make sense?

ft

[hamar]

Silver- I don't have the correct answers. That's why I am looking for it.

FT- My story. Grew up in the church. Believed all I was told. Started having conversations about religion with a good friend, who is a recovering Catholic, a few months ago. I claimed I was a devote mormon but the more I thought the more I realized how not mormon I had become. I still follow the beliefs concerning treatment of self and others (which I think one should do with or without religion), but could no longer claim that I was a staunch believer. How can you when you no longer attend, don't fulfill callings and no longer care about going on Sunday? And don't feel guilty about any of it? :) There were also questions I was beginning to ask myself about why the church suppressed certain truths. The one that I cannot find an answer for is if Smith had been visited by God why did he feel it necessary to join the Masons? Fear for his life? I find can find no good answer to this. There are other questions as well.

Didn't mean to hijack my own thread. :D

Pearfire, I found it insightful to learn that, while Joe was seeking a revelation regarding the true nature of the temple ceremony, he and his conspirators chartered a masonic lodge and had his revelation less two months after the lodge was chartered. The fact that the revelation he received from gawd was almost word for word with the masonic temple ceremony is highly suspect for me. The fact that the temple ceremony has had at least three major changes is even more suspect, if you believe that God is perfect, his revelations should not have to see major changes to soften the offensive language of the ceremony, and such.
Bro. Brigham even said, at the time of the chartering of the masonic lodge in the Journal of Discourses, that "we now have the full temple cermeony" or something close to that, which, to me, indicates they stole it from the masons.