The Hat Trick: Admissions by default

[free thinker]

As I have begun reading Bushmans book " Rough Stone Rolling" I have realized that he plainly reveals that JS translated The Book of Mormon by placing a Peepstone in a hat and dictating free form to scribes.

Since we do not see Bushman facing any church discipline for his writing we must assume the church tacitly approves. In the past when they have not, there has been disciplinary action. Notably the September Six , and more recently, Grant Palmer for his book " An Insiders Veiw of Mormon Origins".

If no church discipline is forthcoming we must logically assume the church does not disagree with Bushman's assertion.

Now will we see the missionaries teaching this? That the Book of Mormon was translated with a Peepstone in a hat. The gold plates being sometimes present, and sometimes not. If not, why not?

FT

[hamar]

As I have begun reading Bushmans book " Rough Stone Rolling" I have realized that he plainly reveals that JS translated The Book of Mormon by placing a Peepstone in a hat and dictating free form to scribes.

Since we do not see Bushman facing any church discipline for his writing we must assume the church tacitly approves. In the past when they have not, there has been disciplinary action. Notably the September Six , and more recently, Grant Palmer for his book " An Insiders Veiw of Mormon Origins".

If no church discipline is forthcoming we must logically assume the church does not disagree with Bushman's assertion.

Now will we see the missionaries teaching this? That the Book of Mormon was translated with a Peepstone in a hat. The gold plates being sometimes present, and sometimes not. If not, why not?

FT


Ineresting point you raise. I think the next step in the morphosis of the church is to wait and see what FARMS has to say about Bushman's book. If they are soft on it then, I believe, we can assume that the suits in SLC approve of the way the information has been presented and can work from there to point out that they do not cover up history. It fits well into a master plan to begin a defense against those of us on the internet that are attempting to reveal history as opposite (or, at least, different) from what is taught in GD classes and missionary lessons; and, yes, there will likely be some changes in how the missionaries reference the translation process in the future. Although, I doubt the church will make any reference to a "peepstone", they likely will move away from direct references to the Urim and Thumim.

Going forward, they will likely make other adjustments regarding their cloudy history as well. It will be interesting to watch the process. These are not dummies that are directing TSCC, and, I'm sure, they are planning very carefully how to deal with all the negative history in a way that it will not impact their income too significantly. I expect to hear something about the warning that, in the latter days, "many will fall into unbelief, and fall away from the true church", be brought out in GC and in other talks in the near future.

This is a good strategy, in my opinion, and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out between the real truth found here on the internet and in well documented books and what TSCC leaks through its minions to the world. IMHO, of course.

[peter_mary]

Excellent question, Free Thinker. Here's what I predict.

I predict that the imagery associated with Joseph and Oliver sitting in the room, translating from the plates will just quietly disappear.

Has anyone heard about the latest version of the First Vision movie? Apparently, it's been updated, and conspicuosly absent, without any reference, is the encounter with evil that tried to detroy Joseph in the moments before God and Jesus appeared. It's just gone. Nobody talks about it, nobody asks about it, it's just gone.

Remember the temple rituals with the slashing? Gone.

Remember the washing and annointings while virtually naked? Gone.

Remember having Seventies in your ward? Gone.

And so it will be with translation imagery, I predict. I have argued elsewhere that the importance of Bushman's book is to gently help the church ease into its history without upsetting the apple cart, and one of the best ways to do that to people is just quietly start removing stuff, and when they say, "Hey...what just happened?" They smile at you, pat you on the head, and say, "Nothing, brother Free Thinker, all's well in Zion. Trust your leaders." And the look they give you concinves you that it's best to not ask questions.

It actually works really well for the masses. Of course, there are a few who will continue to get pushed out as a result, and wander over our way wondering, "What the hell happened to my church?" That's why we're here! :p

[bobcat]

Hmmm... sounds like I might have to borrow this book from my TBM father once he's done with it. Out of curiosity: how does Bushman prove the existence of the "hat trick". Are there old documents that support him that somehow the church has managed to lose and/or forget about for 150 years? Also, I'm gonna have to find out if this Bushman guy is related to me... my Grandma comes from a Bushman clan in SLC :D

That's also interesting about the first vision rewrite. It seems that the don't-ask-don't-tell policy will prevail as usual. I'm far too young to remember most of the other "rewrites" of Mormon history. And I think that's part of the point. Don't talk about it, just let is dissapear and eventually the younger generation will arise and not know a damned thing about it. Until they discover the internet ;)

I do despise the way the membership deals with sticky doctrines. It reminds me of the state of affairs in "1984" (whats that, 3times I've used that on here today-sad that Mormonism reminds me so much of it :P): if the government suddenly decides that they are now at war with Eastasia and at peace with Eurasia, and always have been, people KNOW it's not true, but they won't say a thing for fear of reprisal. So even though no one really agrees with stated policy, everyone does. Do you guys thing that is the general response?

[free thinker]

Hmmm... sounds like I might have to borrow this book from my TBM father once he's done with it. Out of curiosity: how does Bushman prove the existence of the "hat trick". Are there old documents that support him that somehow the church has managed to lose and/or forget about for 150 years? Also, I'm gonna have to find out if this Bushman guy is related to me... my Grandma comes from a Bushman clan in SLC


Emma Smith Bidamon and Oliver Cowdery have both written that this was the "translation" process . Bushman quotes Emma at the head of one chapter.

ft

[lunaverse]

This book is for sale at Deseret... If it's still for sale there a year from now, it's probably not going to be condemned ever... Well... maybe in 100 years after it's loved by millions...

Luna

[elder_nomo]

Ineresting point you raise. I think the next step in the morphosis of the church is to wait and see what FARMS has to say about Bushman's book. If they are soft on it then, I believe, we can assume that the suits in SLC approve of the way the information has been presented and can work from there to point out that they do not cover up history. It fits well into a master plan to begin a defense against those of us on the internet that are attempting to reveal history as opposite (or, at least, different) from what is taught in GD classes and missionary lessons; and, yes, there will likely be some changes in how the missionaries reference the translation process in the future. Although, I doubt the church will make any reference to a "peepstone", they likely will move away from direct references to the Urim and Thumim.

Going forward, they will likely make other adjustments regarding their cloudy history as well. It will be interesting to watch the process. These are not dummies that are directing TSCC, and, I'm sure, they are planning very carefully how to deal with all the negative history in a way that it will not impact their income too significantly. I expect to hear something about the warning that, in the latter days, "many will fall into unbelief, and fall away from the true church", be brought out in GC and in other talks in the near future.

This is a good strategy, in my opinion, and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out between the real truth found here on the internet and in well documented books and what TSCC leaks through its minions to the world. IMHO, of course.
I think you nailed it, Hamar. The church is very good at this. They gradually make tons of little changes. Together, all the changes may be disturbing, but no single change is big enough to cause too much trouble by itself.
Some of the embarassing history is now becoming too well known, so instead of denying it, they gradually co-opt it, putting their own spin on it.
When TBMs come across it then, they will not be as shocked and will have an "oh, yeah, I've heard of this - no big deal" kind of attitude.

I think many post-mos were more troubled by the hiding of issues than they were the issues themselves.
For example, if you were always told that BY started polygamy, not JS, it's shocking and disturbing to learn about JS's polygamous past. But if it's admitted from the get-go, it's not quite as bad. I mean, if you could accept BY's multiple wives, why not JS's?

As was being discussed in another thread, the church seems to be evolving. They also seem to be realizing that it's happening whether they want it to or not, so they are making the best of it.

[hamar]

I think you nailed it, Hamar. The church is very good at this. They gradually make tons of little changes. Together, all the changes may be disturbing, but no single change is big enough to cause too much trouble by itself.
Some of the embarassing history is now becoming too well known, so instead of denying it, they gradually co-opt it, putting their own spin on it.
When TBMs come across it then, they will not be as shocked and will have an "oh, yeah, I've heard of this - no big deal" kind of attitude.

I think many post-mos were more troubled by the hiding of issues than they were the issues themselves.
For example, if you were always told that BY started polygamy, not JS, it's shocking and disturbing to learn about JS's polygamous past. But if it's admitted from the get-go, it's not quite as bad. I mean, if you could accept BY's multiple wives, why not JS's?

As was being discussed in another thread, the church seems to be evolving. They also seem to be realizing that it's happening whether they want it to or not, so they are making the best of it.

That's exactly what happened to me, regarding BY beginning polygamy. And you are right; I was very pissed about being lied to, not so much the fact that it was started by Joe rather than BY. I could accept BY's reason for starting polygamy, but I can't handle the fact that ole Joe was poking a 16 yr. old BEFORE he had his polygamy revelation. It makes me think that he had the polygamy revelation to cover up and justify his infedelity to Emma. "I couldn't help myself Em, God made me do it". :Puking Yea, right, give me a break!
And, as I said in another thread, I think these boys in SLC are not stupid. They have realized that their wellbeing (income) depends on how well they deal with this wave of truth that's coming at them. So far they seem to be dealing with it pretty well. I just think that there are parts that are going to be a real stretch for them. It will be interesting to sit back and watch the process.

[skeptic]

If Bushman’s book is going to be part of a strategy for the church reinventing itself, it’s going to be very interesting to see how well it works. Bushman’s book just confirms what the so called anti-Mormon web sites have been saying all along. I’m suspecting the church will pay a heavy price for a reinvention strategy. It must be a desperate attempt to keep the ship afloat as I’m sure they would have weighed a possible strategy like this against the problems the internet is posing for them.
We know what the church’s follow up would be for the remaining faithful. The old song of the last days and Satan leading many astray.

SoUtSkeptic

[free thinker]

The old song of the last days and Satan leading many astray.

SoUtSkeptic


Such parochial pabulum. I think I'm falling asleep. Hey Satan wake me up when the mellenium starts eh?

ft

[bobcat]

It must be a desperate attempt to keep the ship afloat as I’m sure they would have weighed a possible strategy like this against the problems the internet is posing for them.

Reminds me of something Bishop John Shelby Spong (who I've seen quoted on the site here and there) has said many times, in a variety of ways. As some of the more radical versions of Christianity are assualted by the forces of science and history, they will get more and more desperate to stay afloat, until they "collapse under the weight of their own irrelevance." But, it's not going to be without a fight. Organizations like the LDS church will probably fight back like a cornered cat, clawing and scratching until they've exhausted themselves.

Cover-ups like this may buy them some time, but those nasty little facts that they keep ignoring are eventually going to bite them in the ass. But, chances are good that people like GBH and BKP are going to be dead by that time anyway, so maybe they're just avoiding the issue for now, knowing that they'll never have to deal with the REAL fallout.

[free thinker]

Cover-ups like this may buy them some time, but those nasty little facts that they keep ignoring are eventually going to bite them in the ass. But, chances are good that people like GBH and BKP are going to be dead by that time anyway, so maybe they're just avoiding the issue for now, knowing that they'll never have to deal with the REAL fallout.


In the words of Simon Southerton " The truth has a way of being very patient".


ft