'Honor' killings

[helemon]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/pakistan.honor.ap/index.html
Nazir Ahmed appears calm and unrepentant as he recounts how he slit the throats of his three young daughters and their 25-year old stepsister to salvage his family's "honor" -- a crime that shocked Pakistan.

The 40-year old laborer, speaking to The Associated Press in police detention as he was being shifted to prison, confessed to just one regret -- that he didn't murder the stepsister's alleged lover, too.

How can any religion teach that there is honor in such behavior? But this is not very different from BYs pronouncement that he would be justified in throwing a javelin through the chest of one of his wives if he ever caught her cheating on him. Perhaps we should be grateful that BY's idea of honor killings or blood atonement never caught on.

[lunaverse]

It makes me think of the quotes from GAs about how it's better to lose your life than your chastity, and how they'd rather their son's come home from their missions in body bags than with dishonor....

Luna

[free thinker]

Religion should inspire and tend toward life. Sad that this is sometimes the byproduct of religion. Violence seems to follow fundamentalism in whatever form it takes.

Hindu, Islamic, Bhudda, Christian and etc.

Too Bad.

ft

[Born Free]

Religion should inspire and tend toward life. Sad that this is sometimes the byproduct of religion. Violence seems to follow fundamentalism in whatever form it takes.

Hindu, Islamic, Bhudda, Christian and etc.

Too Bad.

ft

FT,

I am not aware that Buddhism has ever gone fundy-crazy. I would have thought its core philosophy would immunise it against that level of belief of ownership of others, and some presumption of responsibility for their actions.

The parallels between the above mindset and BY, illsutrates that big chunks of the MoMindset are really preChristian. Remember even Christ forgave the woman at the well (if that part of the NT can be regarded as reliably of Christ-origin, and not a later addition).

But good old BY, happily sees himself as separate from Christ's example; he clearly delights in his OT blood and vengence-lust. Mo lurkers, observe and note.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I am not aware that Buddhism has ever gone fundy-crazy. I would have thought its core philosophy would immunise it against that level of belief of ownership of others, and some presumption of responsibility for their actions


Thanks Daryl for brining this to my attention. I was somewhat dubious about including Bhudism. They may never have had the fundy violence problem. Before I write things like this in the future I will check my facts.

Thanks

ft

[Born Free]

I am not aware that Buddhism has ever gone fundy-crazy. I would have thought its core philosophy would immunise it against that level of belief of ownership of others, and some presumption of responsibility for their actions


Thanks Daryl for brining this to my attention. I was somewhat dubious about including Bhudism. They may never have had the fundy violence problem. Before I write things like this in the future I will check my facts.

Thanks

ft

FT,

I have limited knowledge of Buddhism, but my understanding is that it is better described as a philosophy than a religion.

I once saw a practitioner of Buddhism ask John Spong what he thought religion might look like once divested of all the miracle-working myth that surrounds it and its theistic God, in a presentation he did in Brisbane.

He said that he felt Buddhism offered great insights into what a replacement might look like, in that it was low on 'beliefs', doctrine and dogma, and high on practical living, with particular emphasis upon self-responsible, peaceful living.

I find it little surprise that Buddhism has a rapidly growing following in the West, as it moves progressively beyond religion.

Daryl

PS: Have you ever noticed that Buddhism does not have a 'missionary program' thrusting its beliefs arrogantly upon others with an 'I'm OK, You're Not OK' attitude. In contrast, check out the wonderful work they do in that most demanding of environments - prisons! I understand they get great results there too. More power to them (and their philosophy)!

[helemon]

FT,

I have limited knowledge of Buddhism, but my understanding is that it is better described as a philosophy than a religion.



They also allow the public to view their sacred ceremonies.

[free thinker]

He said that he felt Buddhism offered great insights into what a replacement might look like, in that it was low on 'beliefs', doctrine and dogma, and high on practical living, with particular emphasis upon self-responsible, peaceful living.


Daryl

Spong is one pf my current heroes. I loved " Why Christianity Must Change or Die". Fabulous book. If anyone ever could move me towards liberalism, it would be Spong. He has taken a lot of heat for his stands.

I like very much that he has not given up on the sacred, but has tried to remove the mysticism from it. The god he worships is a god I find myself struggling to know now. Albeit in a very passive way. Giving up on god altogether so far, does not work for me.

I plan to study Buddism more in the future. Right now I am very selective about what I let cross the threshold of my sacred space. I felt so utterly violated and deceived by the mormon church. I have a bad taste in my mouth.

I don't want to build too high a wall around my heart though. I dont want to die spiritually, but I want to build a spiritual life that is inclusive, and circumscribed only by my conscience, intellect, and personal wisdom drawn from life experience.

I trust myself now.

ft

[flotsam]

azir Ahmed appears calm and unrepentant as he recounts how he slit the throats of his three young daughters and their 25-year old stepsister to salvage his family's "honor" -- a crime that shocked Pakistan.

The 40-year old laborer, speaking to The Associated Press in police detention as he was being shifted to prison, confessed to just one regret -- that he didn't murder the stepsister's alleged lover, too.

I was at the Anchorage International Film Festival a few weeks ago. I went to the winners session to see the best films. THe first was this superb, utterly depressing Macedonian film called Mirages. It starts with a quote from Neitzche (I have never spelled his name correctly without a spell checker), something about how hope is the greatest poison because people extend their awful mortal exisitence on account of it. As long as there is hope, people continue suffering. And the movie made it a point to show us just such a process.

Anyway, those in the audience who had not slit our wrists after that one were treated to a short film that began with a rape scene. It was interspersed with a group of men talking about how their family had been dihonored and how someone needed four bullets through the chest.

THey decide that the 10 year old son should do it, as he would get less prison time. And so he does it.

Yup, blasts his sister through the chest 4 times.

The audience thinks back and says, Oh whoops, pronouns had been subtlely omitted from the conversation, leading us to believe that they were going to kill the male in the rape scene.

We're all just sitting there in shock. Then some words come up on the screen about "honor killings" happening all over the world. And a web site or something.

I was so glad that the next film was a comedy about a female census taker stumbling across a naked old man conducting the orchestra on the radio, who subsequently dies of a heart attack.

Now that's a film.

[Born Free]

He said that he felt Buddhism offered great insights into what a replacement might look like, in that it was low on 'beliefs', doctrine and dogma, and high on practical living, with particular emphasis upon self-responsible, peaceful living.


Daryl

Spong is one pf my current heroes. I loved " Why Christianity Must Change or Die". Fabulous book. If anyone ever could move me towards liberalism, it would be Spong. He has taken a lot of heat for his stands.

I like very much that he has not given up on the sacred, but has tried to remove the mysticism from it. The god he worships is a god I find myself struggling to know now. Albeit in a very passive way. Giving up on god altogether so far, does not work for me.

I plan to study Buddism more in the future. Right now I am very selective about what I let cross the threshold of my sacred space. I felt so utterly violated and deceived by the mormon church. I have a bad taste in my mouth.

I don't want to build too high a wall around my heart though. I dont want to die spiritually, but I want to build a spiritual life that is inclusive, and circumscribed only by my conscience, intellect, and personal wisdom drawn from life experience.

I trust myself now.

ft

FT,

You mean, rather than leaving MoInc being a spiritual death, it was a spiritual birth? :eek:

How unusual! And how threatening to MoInc that that message get out.

For my money, this process is not about walls around the heart, but it is about good gate-management. With the realisation that no one else has a better interest in your good heart-health than you, comes a lot more skillful (thanks P-M) boundary management, but the biggest benefit for my money, is that having taken on that responsibility, that I now am a far more wise steward, and can let a lot of people in closer, who I have established are worthy of that trust.

And that group I trust to let in, are rarely part of any 'club', who arrogantly pronounce their spiritual superiority.

Daryl

[puff]

He said that he felt Buddhism offered great insights into what a replacement might look like, in that it was low on 'beliefs', doctrine and dogma, and high on practical living, with particular emphasis upon self-responsible, peaceful living.


Daryl

Spong is one pf my current heroes. I loved " Why Christianity Must Change or Die". Fabulous book. If anyone ever could move me towards liberalism, it would be Spong. He has taken a lot of heat for his stands.

I like very much that he has not given up on the sacred, but has tried to remove the mysticism from it. The god he worships is a god I find myself struggling to know now. Albeit in a very passive way. Giving up on god altogether so far, does not work for me.

I plan to study Buddism more in the future. Right now I am very selective about what I let cross the threshold of my sacred space. I felt so utterly violated and deceived by the mormon church. I have a bad taste in my mouth.

I don't want to build too high a wall around my heart though. I dont want to die spiritually, but I want to build a spiritual life that is inclusive, and circumscribed only by my conscience, intellect, and personal wisdom drawn from life experience.

I trust myself now.

ftamen to that freefinker , its going to take a while to get over being run over by a big fat stinking mormon steamroller , myself i think the quickest way to find God is to actually smoke him out

[free thinker]

You mean, rather than leaving MoInc being a spiritual death, it was a spiritual birth?

That is a much more positive way to look at it. If nothing else a lesson has been learned. To take a line from the D and C, "and all these things shall give thee experience....".. :cool:


ft

[free thinker]

amen to that freefinker , its going to take a while to get over being run over by a big fat stinking mormon steamroller , myself i think the quickest way to find God is to actually smoke him out


Good as any method I guess. I don't know what, if anything, is out there, or in here, but I personally am still searching. Perhaps we are god.


ft

[miss taken]

There are a fair few honour killings over here in the UK, amongst the population. Particularly with fathers and their daughters. Death is better than immorality and the dishonour that comes with it.

It does have its foundation in Old Testament philosophy I think.

Live in fear, and whatever you do, don't get caught.

I think extreme fundamentalist thinking is a problem in many religious and political groups. Animal Rights is another area where people have gone to extremes to make a point.

Pretty depressing stuff though.


(whoops) Mary

[puff]

amen to that freefinker , its going to take a while to get over being run over by a big fat stinking mormon steamroller , myself i think the quickest way to find God is to actually smoke him out


Good as any method I guess. I don't know what, if anything, is out there, or in here, but I personally am still searching. Perhaps we are god.


fti get the feeling your a bit lost , to tell you the truth i am to , it seems to be a choice between noddy and big ears or dying of thirst in a waterless desert , i don,t exspect to find any answers anymore , and perhaps thats the worst thing about becoming defunct mormons , we become very pessermistic about all kinds of religeous ideas , today i was reading about peter cutting off the ear of malchus , then i got to thinking about it , how hard is it to cut somebodys ear off with a sword , i don,t believe they were that well made and you would have to think that malchus was pretty dumb just to stand there and let a perfect shot swipe his ear off , would he not have ducked or something , then of course jesus takes the ear and sticks it back on , more amazing stuff , the idea that we are gods is the mainstay of mormon religeon ie , quote , you must learn to become gods or as man is god once was ect ect , one of my old talks was , we are older than the stars , thinking of eternal progression i used to sound off on that one quite a bit

[bobcat]

Interesting stuff. These honor-killings seem very foreign to me, but I can think of a lot of honor-disownings that have gone on all around me. I was talking recently to a friend of mine from High School, whom I hadn't seen since graduation, nearly 7 years ago. Seems she left the church, had a baby, was in several abusive relationships, got pregnant again, and things aren't necessarily getting better. And where is her family during these tough times? Oh, the loving family disowned her as soon as she left the church at 18. Now that I think about it, this type of treatment doesn't seem much more humane than honor killings.